Guest guest Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 Death I have seen a few people die. The one's I saw had no pain and no struggle, they even seemed fine with it. My mother was so delusional she was actually having fun talking to all her dead relatives in the room for days before. There seems to be a repeating pattern of them seeing other people in the room that we don't see..always people of their past or that you would think they might see...like Christians seeing Christ while Hindus see Hanuman or some such...obviously the mind at work if you ask me. There is record of a famous Irish man dieing long ago and he was speaking of seeing the Druids, and so on. But each time I saw death I became less afraid of it. I don't think it is to be feared. It seems really easy and natural. Of course not the horrific ones...they contain suffering...but still...towards the end, shock sets in and protects the person from feeling, quite often. Shock is the friend of the traumatized it seems. But as for natural mellow deaths, they seem to be not too difficult overall. And I think it seems like the best assumption, to think that the sentient conscious being travels through dreamspace of some type, and eventually into a new life, to continue the learning process, the growing process. And it seems, that overall, the whole Earth, all the people and animals, every being, is linked in one huge class lesson set, one life that we all live together for billions of years, as if we are going somewhere together, being raised as a batch, together, progressing together, and now, with TV, camers, the internet, it's reached a new high of awareness, as we learn to literally know about and see each other constantly. Nobody in my parents generation ever met an Indian. Now I'm writing to thousands of them from my living room, and I've travelled there four times. This is all very new. The lesson seems to be exponentially going up. ----------------------- The Proveable There is alot that can be proved, when it comes to material nature itself. For example, it can safely concluded that humans will die if they don't breathe and eat, plants need water, the Sun must shine or life will perish, the atom can be split to make an explosion of energy, and much much more. >From the proveable it is sane to INFER things about the unproveable. It is natural, and that's how people end up coming up with relgious theories. What cannot be proven are things which are beyond our reach to see, know, touch, experiment with, etc., such as "what is beyond the creation in which we live". That cannot be proven. But the electricity that runs the internet is well understood and all our messages are reaching this list, so talk about nothing is proveable relates only to that which is "un-know-able", true, correct. There are different ways to deal with the unknowable, and each isolated culture of the old times did so in their own ways, for example, in Ireland they called "himDagda" and in Norway "Woden" and in India "Vishnu" etc. They developed "religions" and "priests" officiated the rituals. Certain common threads appeared, such as "Priests" of some sort, and a "God" of some sort, but there were MANY differences as well. That's why it's sometimes FUNNY to hear different cultures try to harmonize their views with each other. You might call it "babble". ---------------------- Abuse So the Vaisnava Hindu scriptures, like the Maharbharat, say that one needs a Guru in order to know God, and Jesus said something similar...the idea that one needs a conduit, a teacher, is widespread in religions worldwide..whether it be officiating intervening priests who perform the sacrifices "the right way" or a teacher who gives "the right guidance" for the novitiate, the idea seems to be universal. Some of us call it priestcraft with a bit of disdain. It's a VERY stressed idea in Vaisnava Hinduism, hence the Guru, or teacher, has a raised seat in the temple. In Hare Krishna, the founder was worshipped, and still is, almost equal to God himself, and in fact, they say "kintu prabhor yah priay eva tasya", he is even HIGHER than God because "God is not so merciful to you as is the Guru who delivers you to God". So they really worship the Guru, and his word is not questioned, he is infallible, as the Pope is infallible. Many religions have felt a need to defend themselves. Cardinals have raised their own armies in the past in England say. Monks have had to defend their temples and ashrams in numerous countries throughout history. When I became the servant of a Hare Krishna Guru, the first day, he showed me my "Oozie", which is an Israeli Army Semi Automatic Urban Warfare Gun. It's not a hunting rifle, it's a killing rifle. For killing humans. It's what you see in all the bad guy movies. It's small, quick, light, and deadly. I joined to be a servant of God. I had never used such a thing nor even seen one, and suddenly I had been given one, "to protect the Guru". Later, I came to realize, this Guru really liked Guns. But nobody could question that. Eventually we could see he also liked Porsche cars and Mercedes Benz, all costly, and eventually, he liked the woman too. Eventually the temple fell apart. One night he actualy drove through our city shooting at stores that bothered him, with live ammunition, from one his many guns, shooting into liquor stores, car stores, whatever, and there were people inside. He was on a rampage to get attention. I knew him well. There is no other explanation. Many sincere young souls were under him as disciples. Years later he apologized, but that doesn't make up for time lost in our lives. He had "shooting days" for the monks who collected money. They got to waste expensive ammunition shooting at those human paper targets on our Hare Krishna farm. I did not participate. I am glad to say I saw beyond it. But I had no alternative except bewildernment. The older disciples said it was right and ok, that the Guru had these options and he knew what was best. There was a general sense always that "the end of society is near" and that we had to take measures. Finally the goverment swooped in and took everything, and him, but that was just one of his many arrests. This is why, the piling up of these crazy events, that I eventually left him and went to another. But that one feel too. Then another, and on it goes. Many Hare Krishna people have been through a few Gurus, because they keep falling down, doing weird things. So while it is true that the teacher is the path giver, he may also be the path destroyer. Keeping one's eyes open to one's own heart is the way to hear your voice, your song, your way, your lessons. Kindof takes away the need, and the right, of any teacher to be "infallible". Stories that there "once was" such persons are really great. But they too can be misleading. Is "perfection of renunciation", as in the case of Jesus being so strong and staunch and celibate, really "the path to emulate". Is the renunciation of "the Budha" really the thing to emulate? My life has been filled with this quest alone. It's pretty much what I've done. Seminary at 13, Hare Krishna at 19, reading other scriptures, always being involved in this, then studying Celtic warrior path as well. Kindof prefer that singular self knowing thing now...know thyself...and through that path study all that is, all of nature, and know it, but if being deluded in the first, by not paying attention to your own real feelings, the rest gets messed up. I've learned this the hard way and in a way wasted alot of my life learning that one lesson. ------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 On May 11, 2006, at 6:29 PM, Das Goravani wrote: > > Death > > I have seen a few people die. The one's I saw had no pain and no > struggle, > they even seemed fine with it. My mother was so delusional she was > actually > having fun talking to all her dead relatives in the room for days > before. what makes you think she was delusional just because you couldn't see? > But each time I saw death I became less afraid of it. I don't > think it is > to be feared. it is good not to fear death, das, because death does not exist. > ---------------------- > The Proveable > > There is alot that can be proved, when it comes to material nature > itself. > For example, it can safely concluded that humans will die if they > don't > breathe and eat, plants need water, the Sun must shine or life will > perish, > the atom can be split to make an explosion of energy, and much much > more. everything you are saying isl within a certain thought system, das. outside that thought system, ? does matter exist? e=mc2, you know. what looks solid is just light in motion. movies are pretty convincing, aren't they? and we go through all the feelings of a lifetime in a couple of hours and then the credits roll and we shake our heads and say, "WOW! THAT was QUITE A RIDE!" we get totally sucked in, believing it's a real world with real people having real feelings and -- it's all made up. > From the proveable it is sane to INFER things about the > unproveable. It is > natural, and that's how people end up coming up with relgious > theories. > > What cannot be proven are things which are beyond our reach to see, > know, > touch, experiment with, etc., such as "what is beyond the creation > in which > we live". That cannot be proven. But the electricity that runs the > internet is well understood and all our messages are reaching this > list, so > talk about nothing is proveable relates only to that which is > "un-know-able", true, correct. nothing can be proved. what is 'proving' is just witnessing within its own system. "i think, therefore I am and you are and all this is..." could it all be one huge delusional system? some think so. is it really possible that beams of light can be isolated into matter? or does it just LOOK like it's solid material? there have been those, i understand, who don't agree with the system of things as we have and they walk through walls, etc. very fun! > There are different ways to deal with the unknowable, and each > isolated > culture of the old times did so in their own ways, for example, in > Ireland > they called "himDagda" and in Norway "Woden" and in India > "Vishnu" etc. what if what you think of as 'unknowable' is the only thing that can be known? what if the intangible is the most tangible? and what if the personality they have attached to it throughout the eons is only a sign post that is pointing at what is real, showing what is real, encouraging us to find what is real... and it's -- what do they all say -- inside? it's inside us? hmmmmmmmmm..... is there even a world out here? or is it all a dream? ????????? > > They developed "religions" and "priests" officiated the rituals. > Certain > common threads appeared, such as "Priests" of some sort, and a > "God" of some > sort, but there were MANY differences as well. yes, very creative. inventive. > > That's why it's sometimes FUNNY to hear different cultures try to > harmonize > their views with each other. You might call it "babble". ok. > ---------------------- > Abuse > > So the Vaisnava Hindu scriptures, like the Maharbharat, say that > one needs a > Guru in order to know God, and Jesus said something similar...the > idea that > one needs a conduit, a teacher, is widespread in religions > worldwide..whether it be officiating intervening priests who > perform the > sacrifices "the right way" or a teacher who gives "the right > guidance" for > the novitiate, the idea seems to be universal. Some of us call it > priestcraft with a bit of disdain. those who know and show aren't the priests. priests are the businessmen. they come later, like vultures, to claim the spoils. they capitalize on something good that happened 'once upon a time.' > > It's a VERY stressed idea in Vaisnava Hinduism, hence the Guru, or > teacher, > has a raised seat in the temple. In Hare Krishna, the founder was > worshipped, and still is, almost equal to God himself, and in fact, > they say > "kintu prabhor yah priay eva tasya", he is even HIGHER than God > because > "God is not so merciful to you as is the Guru who delivers you to > God". i have heard that 'gu' means darkness and 'ru' means light and that 'guru' means someone who can take you from darkness to light. if someone can do that, yes, he deserves a bit of appreciation, honor. 'worship'? i question what that means. religious worship is usually pretty much 'outside', no? why would someone who could show you something so personal as the light within you want an external show? ????? once it gets to that point, i suspect it might be verging on religion. > > So they really worship the Guru, and his word is not questioned, he is > infallible, as the Pope is infallible. that's where religion begins. when 'word' becomes 'words.' "the tao that can be told is not the eternal tao... the name that can be named is not the eternal name." "hear again my word supreme, the deepest secret of silence." word =/= words > > Many religions have felt a need to defend themselves. Cardinals > have raised > their own armies in the past in England say. Monks have had to > defend their > temples and ashrams in numerous countries throughout history. > > When I became the servant of a Hare Krishna Guru, the first day, he > showed > me my "Oozie", which is an Israeli Army Semi Automatic Urban > Warfare Gun. > It's not a hunting rifle, it's a killing rifle. For killing > humans. It's > what you see in all the bad guy movies. It's small, quick, light, and > deadly. > > I joined to be a servant of God. I had never used such a thing nor > even > seen one, and suddenly I had been given one, "to protect the Guru". i would have left immediately. why did you stay? > > Later, I came to realize, this Guru really liked Guns. But nobody > could > question that. Eventually we could see he also liked Porsche cars and > Mercedes Benz, all costly, and eventually, he liked the woman too. > > Eventually the temple fell apart. One night he actualy drove > through our > city shooting at stores that bothered him, with live ammunition, > from one > his many guns, shooting into liquor stores, car stores, whatever, > and there > were people inside. He was on a rampage to get attention. I knew > him well. > There is no other explanation. maybe he also liked 'fire water'? or 'drugs'? > > Many sincere young souls were under him as disciples. Years later he > apologized, but that doesn't make up for time lost in our lives. > He had > "shooting days" for the monks who collected money. They got to waste > expensive ammunition shooting at those human paper targets on our Hare > Krishna farm. I did not participate. I am glad to say I saw > beyond it. > But I had no alternative except bewildernment. i'm sorry that happened to you, das. > > The older disciples said it was right and ok, that the Guru had these > options and he knew what was best. There was a general sense always > that > "the end of society is near" and that we had to take measures. > Finally the > goverment swooped in and took everything, and him, but that was > just one of > his many arrests. This is why, the piling up of these crazy > events, that I > eventually left him and went to another. But that one feel too. Then > another, and on it goes. Many Hare Krishna people have been > through a few > Gurus, because they keep falling down, doing weird things. religions are businesses. their commodity is 'god.' > > So while it is true that the teacher is the path giver, he may also > be the > path destroyer. you have had very unfortunate experiences. i don't think that what you have experienced had anything to do with what you really wanted. you were young and innocent and trusting and you were duped. sad because now you really have your dukes up. > > Keeping one's eyes open to one's own heart is the way to hear your > voice, > your song, your way, your lessons. that's right. > > Kindof takes away the need, and the right, of any teacher to be > "infallible". Stories that there "once was" such persons are > really great. > But they too can be misleading. Is "perfection of renunciation", > as in the > case of Jesus being so strong and staunch and celibate, really "the > path to > emulate". Is the renunciation of "the Budha" really the thing to > emulate? the superstars actually were servants and gave Knowledge of how to get to the inner, pristine energy source, by turning your senses inward. that experience doesn't allow for external authorities. once you know that inner, nobody can fool you again. > > My life has been filled with this quest alone. It's pretty much > what I've > done. Seminary at 13, Hare Krishna at 19, reading other scriptures, > always > being involved in this, then studying Celtic warrior path as well. > Kindof > prefer that singular self knowing thing now...know thyself...and > through > that path study all that is, all of nature, and know it, but if being > deluded in the first, by not paying attention to your own real > feelings, the > rest gets messed up. I've learned this the hard way and in a way > wasted > alot of my life learning that one lesson. well, it's an important lesson to learn. congratulations on getting to where you are. love, patricia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2006 Report Share Posted May 12, 2006 Dear Das, This post of yours is a real eye opener. You have bared the reality of all these organised cults, sects and gurus. Some years back some boxes of arms and ammunitions were dropped in Purulia district of west bengal by an intruder aeroplane. Though the police knew that they were meant for the Anand Margis, they had no evidence to book them. One very famous yogi, Dhirendra Brahmachari, who was personal yoga trainer of Indira Gandhi, owned a gun manufacturing factory in Jammu city in Jammu and Kashmir, in India. He had his own private aircrafts and own runway to land them. Then, there is Rajnish. His exploits and extravagances are well known. Becoming a guru is the easiest way to power. Regards, Ashutosh - Das Goravani valist Friday, 12 May, 2006 06:59 Death - The Proveable - Abuse DeathI have seen a few people die. The one's I saw had no pain and no struggle,they even seemed fine with it. My mother was so delusional she was actuallyhaving fun talking to all her dead relatives in the room for days before.There seems to be a repeating pattern of them seeing other people in theroom that we don't see..always people of their past or that you would thinkthey might see...like Christians seeing Christ while Hindus see Hanuman orsome such...obviously the mind at work if you ask me. There is record of afamous Irish man dieing long ago and he was speaking of seeing the Druids,and so on. But each time I saw death I became less afraid of it. I don't think it isto be feared. It seems really easy and natural. Of course not the horrificones...they contain suffering...but still...towards the end, shock sets inand protects the person from feeling, quite often. Shock is the friend ofthe traumatized it seems.But as for natural mellow deaths, they seem to be not too difficult overall.And I think it seems like the best assumption, to think that the sentientconscious being travels through dreamspace of some type, and eventually intoa new life, to continue the learning process, the growing process.And it seems, that overall, the whole Earth, all the people and animals,every being, is linked in one huge class lesson set, one life that we alllive together for billions of years, as if we are going somewhere together,being raised as a batch, together, progressing together, and now, with TV,camers, the internet, it's reached a new high of awareness, as we learn toliterally know about and see each other constantly. Nobody in my parentsgeneration ever met an Indian. Now I'm writing to thousands of them from myliving room, and I've travelled there four times. This is all very new.The lesson seems to be exponentially going up.-----------------------The ProveableThere is alot that can be proved, when it comes to material nature itself.For example, it can safely concluded that humans will die if they don'tbreathe and eat, plants need water, the Sun must shine or life will perish,the atom can be split to make an explosion of energy, and much much more.From the proveable it is sane to INFER things about the unproveable. It isnatural, and that's how people end up coming up with relgious theories.What cannot be proven are things which are beyond our reach to see, know,touch, experiment with, etc., such as "what is beyond the creation in whichwe live". That cannot be proven. But the electricity that runs theinternet is well understood and all our messages are reaching this list, sotalk about nothing is proveable relates only to that which is"un-know-able", true, correct.There are different ways to deal with the unknowable, and each isolatedculture of the old times did so in their own ways, for example, in Irelandthey called "himDagda" and in Norway "Woden" and in India "Vishnu" etc.They developed "religions" and "priests" officiated the rituals. Certaincommon threads appeared, such as "Priests" of some sort, and a "God" of somesort, but there were MANY differences as well.That's why it's sometimes FUNNY to hear different cultures try to harmonizetheir views with each other. You might call it "babble".----------------------AbuseSo the Vaisnava Hindu scriptures, like the Maharbharat, say that one needs aGuru in order to know God, and Jesus said something similar...the idea thatone needs a conduit, a teacher, is widespread in religionsworldwide..whether it be officiating intervening priests who perform thesacrifices "the right way" or a teacher who gives "the right guidance" forthe novitiate, the idea seems to be universal. Some of us call itpriestcraft with a bit of disdain.It's a VERY stressed idea in Vaisnava Hinduism, hence the Guru, or teacher,has a raised seat in the temple. In Hare Krishna, the founder wasworshipped, and still is, almost equal to God himself, and in fact, they say"kintu prabhor yah priay eva tasya", he is even HIGHER than God because"God is not so merciful to you as is the Guru who delivers you to God".So they really worship the Guru, and his word is not questioned, he isinfallible, as the Pope is infallible.Many religions have felt a need to defend themselves. Cardinals have raisedtheir own armies in the past in England say. Monks have had to defend theirtemples and ashrams in numerous countries throughout history.When I became the servant of a Hare Krishna Guru, the first day, he showedme my "Oozie", which is an Israeli Army Semi Automatic Urban Warfare Gun.It's not a hunting rifle, it's a killing rifle. For killing humans. It'swhat you see in all the bad guy movies. It's small, quick, light, anddeadly.I joined to be a servant of God. I had never used such a thing nor evenseen one, and suddenly I had been given one, "to protect the Guru".Later, I came to realize, this Guru really liked Guns. But nobody couldquestion that. Eventually we could see he also liked Porsche cars andMercedes Benz, all costly, and eventually, he liked the woman too.Eventually the temple fell apart. One night he actualy drove through ourcity shooting at stores that bothered him, with live ammunition, from onehis many guns, shooting into liquor stores, car stores, whatever, and therewere people inside. He was on a rampage to get attention. I knew him well.There is no other explanation.Many sincere young souls were under him as disciples. Years later heapologized, but that doesn't make up for time lost in our lives. He had"shooting days" for the monks who collected money. They got to wasteexpensive ammunition shooting at those human paper targets on our HareKrishna farm. I did not participate. I am glad to say I saw beyond it.But I had no alternative except bewildernment.The older disciples said it was right and ok, that the Guru had theseoptions and he knew what was best. There was a general sense always that"the end of society is near" and that we had to take measures. Finally thegoverment swooped in and took everything, and him, but that was just one ofhis many arrests. This is why, the piling up of these crazy events, that Ieventually left him and went to another. But that one feel too. Thenanother, and on it goes. Many Hare Krishna people have been through a fewGurus, because they keep falling down, doing weird things.So while it is true that the teacher is the path giver, he may also be thepath destroyer. Keeping one's eyes open to one's own heart is the way to hear your voice,your song, your way, your lessons.Kindof takes away the need, and the right, of any teacher to be"infallible". Stories that there "once was" such persons are really great.But they too can be misleading. Is "perfection of renunciation", as in thecase of Jesus being so strong and staunch and celibate, really "the path toemulate". Is the renunciation of "the Budha" really the thing to emulate?My life has been filled with this quest alone. It's pretty much what I'vedone. Seminary at 13, Hare Krishna at 19, reading other scriptures, alwaysbeing involved in this, then studying Celtic warrior path as well. Kindofprefer that singular self knowing thing now...know thyself...and throughthat path study all that is, all of nature, and know it, but if beingdeluded in the first, by not paying attention to your own real feelings, therest gets messed up. I've learned this the hard way and in a way wastedalot of my life learning that one lesson.-------------------------: For software visit: Links<*> valist/<*> To from this group, send an email to: valist<*> Your use of is subject to: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2006 Report Share Posted May 12, 2006 Ashutosh, I think that your statement "you have bared the reality of all these organised cults, sects and gurus" would be better said if instead of "all" you used "some". Unless, by "all" you were referring to just those that Rick has had personal experience with and making a generalization. Just because one has negative experiences with several gurus does not automatically mean that there are not true Gurus, even today. Perhaps such negative experiences and false gurus can be seen in the natal chart. If one had continual negative experiences with astologers and was defrauded every time then such a person might state that "astrology causes all sorts of problems and astogolers are fakes who are out for money" because that has been there experience. However, here we know that this is not the case because we have had the experience that astrology works and we probably know some astrologers who help others greatly with the knowledge they share. valist, "astrologerashutosh" <astrologerashutosh wrote: > > Dear Das, > > This post of yours is a real eye opener. You have bared the reality of all these organised cults, sects and gurus. > > Some years back some boxes of arms and ammunitions were dropped in Purulia district of west bengal by an intruder aeroplane. Though the police knew that they were meant for the Anand Margis, they had no evidence to book them. > > One very famous yogi, Dhirendra Brahmachari, who was personal yoga trainer of Indira Gandhi, owned a gun manufacturing factory in Jammu city in Jammu and Kashmir, in India. He had his own private aircrafts and own runway to land them. > > Then, there is Rajnish. His exploits and extravagances are well known. > > Becoming a guru is the easiest way to power. > > Regards, > > Ashutosh > > > > - > Das Goravani > valist > Friday, 12 May, 2006 06:59 > Death - The Proveable - Abuse > > > > Death > > I have seen a few people die. The one's I saw had no pain and no struggle, > they even seemed fine with it. My mother was so delusional she was actually > having fun talking to all her dead relatives in the room for days before. > There seems to be a repeating pattern of them seeing other people in the > room that we don't see..always people of their past or that you would think > they might see...like Christians seeing Christ while Hindus see Hanuman or > some such...obviously the mind at work if you ask me. There is record of a > famous Irish man dieing long ago and he was speaking of seeing the Druids, > and so on. > > But each time I saw death I became less afraid of it. I don't think it is > to be feared. It seems really easy and natural. Of course not the horrific > ones...they contain suffering...but still...towards the end, shock sets in > and protects the person from feeling, quite often. Shock is the friend of > the traumatized it seems. > > But as for natural mellow deaths, they seem to be not too difficult overall. > And I think it seems like the best assumption, to think that the sentient > conscious being travels through dreamspace of some type, and eventually into > a new life, to continue the learning process, the growing process. > > And it seems, that overall, the whole Earth, all the people and animals, > every being, is linked in one huge class lesson set, one life that we all > live together for billions of years, as if we are going somewhere together, > being raised as a batch, together, progressing together, and now, with TV, > camers, the internet, it's reached a new high of awareness, as we learn to > literally know about and see each other constantly. Nobody in my parents > generation ever met an Indian. Now I'm writing to thousands of them from my > living room, and I've travelled there four times. This is all very new. > The lesson seems to be exponentially going up. > > ----------------------- > > The Proveable > > There is alot that can be proved, when it comes to material nature itself. > For example, it can safely concluded that humans will die if they don't > breathe and eat, plants need water, the Sun must shine or life will perish, > the atom can be split to make an explosion of energy, and much much more. > > From the proveable it is sane to INFER things about the unproveable. It is > natural, and that's how people end up coming up with relgious theories. > > What cannot be proven are things which are beyond our reach to see, know, > touch, experiment with, etc., such as "what is beyond the creation in which > we live". That cannot be proven. But the electricity that runs the > internet is well understood and all our messages are reaching this list, so > talk about nothing is proveable relates only to that which is > "un-know-able", true, correct. > > There are different ways to deal with the unknowable, and each isolated > culture of the old times did so in their own ways, for example, in Ireland > they called "himDagda" and in Norway "Woden" and in India "Vishnu" etc. > > They developed "religions" and "priests" officiated the rituals. Certain > common threads appeared, such as "Priests" of some sort, and a "God" of some > sort, but there were MANY differences as well. > > That's why it's sometimes FUNNY to hear different cultures try to harmonize > their views with each other. You might call it "babble". > > ---------------------- > > Abuse > > So the Vaisnava Hindu scriptures, like the Maharbharat, say that one needs a > Guru in order to know God, and Jesus said something similar...the idea that > one needs a conduit, a teacher, is widespread in religions > worldwide..whether it be officiating intervening priests who perform the > sacrifices "the right way" or a teacher who gives "the right guidance" for > the novitiate, the idea seems to be universal. Some of us call it > priestcraft with a bit of disdain. > > It's a VERY stressed idea in Vaisnava Hinduism, hence the Guru, or teacher, > has a raised seat in the temple. In Hare Krishna, the founder was > worshipped, and still is, almost equal to God himself, and in fact, they say > "kintu prabhor yah priay eva tasya", he is even HIGHER than God because > "God is not so merciful to you as is the Guru who delivers you to God". > > So they really worship the Guru, and his word is not questioned, he is > infallible, as the Pope is infallible. > > Many religions have felt a need to defend themselves. Cardinals have raised > their own armies in the past in England say. Monks have had to defend their > temples and ashrams in numerous countries throughout history. > > When I became the servant of a Hare Krishna Guru, the first day, he showed > me my "Oozie", which is an Israeli Army Semi Automatic Urban Warfare Gun. > It's not a hunting rifle, it's a killing rifle. For killing humans. It's > what you see in all the bad guy movies. It's small, quick, light, and > deadly. > > I joined to be a servant of God. I had never used such a thing nor even > seen one, and suddenly I had been given one, "to protect the Guru". > > Later, I came to realize, this Guru really liked Guns. But nobody could > question that. Eventually we could see he also liked Porsche cars and > Mercedes Benz, all costly, and eventually, he liked the woman too. > > Eventually the temple fell apart. One night he actualy drove through our > city shooting at stores that bothered him, with live ammunition, from one > his many guns, shooting into liquor stores, car stores, whatever, and there > were people inside. He was on a rampage to get attention. I knew him well. > There is no other explanation. > > Many sincere young souls were under him as disciples. Years later he > apologized, but that doesn't make up for time lost in our lives. He had > "shooting days" for the monks who collected money. They got to waste > expensive ammunition shooting at those human paper targets on our Hare > Krishna farm. I did not participate. I am glad to say I saw beyond it. > But I had no alternative except bewildernment. > > The older disciples said it was right and ok, that the Guru had these > options and he knew what was best. There was a general sense always that > "the end of society is near" and that we had to take measures. Finally the > goverment swooped in and took everything, and him, but that was just one of > his many arrests. This is why, the piling up of these crazy events, that I > eventually left him and went to another. But that one feel too. Then > another, and on it goes. Many Hare Krishna people have been through a few > Gurus, because they keep falling down, doing weird things. > > So while it is true that the teacher is the path giver, he may also be the > path destroyer. > > Keeping one's eyes open to one's own heart is the way to hear your voice, > your song, your way, your lessons. > > Kindof takes away the need, and the right, of any teacher to be > "infallible". Stories that there "once was" such persons are really great. > But they too can be misleading. Is "perfection of renunciation", as in the > case of Jesus being so strong and staunch and celibate, really "the path to > emulate". Is the renunciation of "the Budha" really the thing to emulate? > > My life has been filled with this quest alone. It's pretty much what I've > done. Seminary at 13, Hare Krishna at 19, reading other scriptures, always > being involved in this, then studying Celtic warrior path as well. Kindof > prefer that singular self knowing thing now...know thyself...and through > that path study all that is, all of nature, and know it, but if being > deluded in the first, by not paying attention to your own real feelings, the > rest gets messed up. I've learned this the hard way and in a way wasted > alot of my life learning that one lesson. > > ------------------------- > > > > > > Links > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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