Guest guest Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 Rick, What CAN be verified about history as a whole through the means of archaeology? Not all that much considering this field consists mostly of theories that are constantly reworked based on new finds which are not easy to come by in the first place. Archaeology affords us a very limited view of history at best. Is archeology even capable of proving whether or not Jesus existed -- what kind of evidence would prove this? How meaniful is the lack of archaeological evidence? To me it is more telling that we have a written record of the life of Jesus Christ in the form of the vairous gospels than it is that we have a lack of achaeological evidence. A lack of evidence is not capable of proving anything. While a record at least indicates SOMETHING. Obviously, we all have different life experiences that shape our beliefs regarding things that we do not have the opportunity to experience first hand or by hard evidence. To me it comes down to a matter of trust/faith. If you essentially trust others and acknowledge that there are those who know more than we do then it is possible to accept things w/o needing first-hand experience or hard evidence. Regarding the life of Jesus Christ, it was reading the _Autobiography of a Yogi_ that settled it for me. I have no reason not to trust what Paramahansa Yogananda has written regarding his experiences. But you are right, in this case too, it is a choice to take his word for it or not. The experiences described by Paramahansa Yogananda are quite amazing and he visited and wrote about the extraordinary lives of many saints of his day. Since the time of Jesus, there have been saints that experienced the passion of Christ such as the stigmatist Therese Neumann of Konnersreuth who relived the passion in visions. Again, this is something that one can either accept or not based whether you trust the experiences of others. For people who are open to the possibility there is plenty of support, for people who are not open to the possibility there will always be a lack of hard evidence to point to. Even if Jesus or Krishna or Moses did write things down and the writings survived and were discovered -- would that be enough? How would it be proven to the point of certainty that they were the authors and what they wrote was true? What kind of proof is required? You are right - what I wrote about earlier stems from my life experiences and is based on what is written in the bible and other corroborating sources and not on concrete proven facts. However, with out knowing for sure, to call the life of Jesus or Moses or Krishna "myths" is as much a statement of personal belief as anything I have written. valist, Das Goravani <> wrote: > > > > I have a book called "The archaeology of the Bible". > > It shows what is archaeologically known about all the stories in the whole > bible, including the part about Jesus. It's not much. > > Secondly, Jesus is only mentioned once, in brief, in the Roman histories > written in his day. > > His real disciples, the 12, didn't do much in terms of expanding any church. > This is because they stayed within the Jewish circle, which they knew was > Christ's intent. It was Paul, who never met Jesus, who spread what we call > the Christian faith. The other one, called "The original christian church" > was very small and died off fast. > > It was after hundreds of years of Paul's message circulating in the Roman > provinces, that Rome had to submit, and after that, Paul's creation spread > everywhere. > > What we actually know for sure about the person and life of Christ is very > little. We actually, you could say, don't know anything for sure. It's all > a myth, just like with Krishna. > > The only reason we know anything about Julius Caesar's actual thoughts and > so forth, is that he wrote them down. He lived just before Christ. If > Christ wrote things, and if they were preserved, that would help. But it > didn't happen. > > Take Vercingetorix, another contemporary of that era, the military leader of > the Celts against Rome...he wrote nothing down, so we know nothing about > him. Nobody argues with this. There are a few quotes from him, but we get > those from Roman Histories. Unless things are written and preserved, the > rest is heresay. > > If you are scientific, and equipoised about his matter, you will conclude > that Jesus, as he is known amongst the people's of the world, is a myth, > much like Merlin and Arthur, who lived in roughly 400 AD supposedly. > Because there is no written record, it's all myth. > > So if you say "Jesus personified the divine" or ANYTHING along those lines, > you are giving YOUR TAKE on A MYTH and nothing more. Nothing more. > > The thing called Christianity, like the thing called Hinduism, is largely a > culturally created and spread myth. > > Both of them speak of "God", and nobody has ever met this person. > > Obviously there is a great truth, and obviously life can be lived more or > less in union with the truths that surround us. > > Pretty much, end of story. > > Christianity is a myth and we cannot be sure about anything "Christ said" > because the papers such things are written on cannot be said to be authentic > in any way, and Paul's creation, cannot said to be that of Christ. > Basically, it's all a misleading myth. Sorry. > > That's my learned opinion. > > And if someone yells at me, they'll be talking to a brick wall. > > Life is splendid and beautiful, and I love myths. I like watching the Moses > mythg, the Jesus myth, the Pandavas myth, the Ram myth, the Krishna mythg, > and I love Stargate SG1, the modern TV myth series, and in my head I too am > a myth, a great guy with great abilities..that too is a myth. > > "May the Peace of Christ be with you always, > and may you be in heaven a half hour, before the devils knows your dead" > > Rick > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 Well said. I know about the Gospels. They are pretty scant, and you know, who knows for sure who wrote them and if they were under the influence of an already expanded mythological story line. Having come from a family and tradition (Irish Catholic 11 Kids) that caused me and those I know severe pain under the guise of the "Rules of the Holy Church" I am just really sensitive to the issue. I have upside down crosses painted on my car, and it for the above reason. I also suffered (and gained alot) through the Krishna stories. I'm just very sensitive now to religion since coming to realize how much pain it causes. I'm not surprised that in this modern time the number of priests joining is far less than the number dieing. I think the days of such a Church are, and should be, over. But you're right, this too is just an opinion. A lived opinion as Irish, as Seminarian, as Catholic. You know, my mother was buriedin a Nun's graveyard. That should say alot. Well anyway, no biggee, onwards and upwards... Love T Rick ster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 i was a tiny child when i realize that NOTHING could EVER be proved. NOTHING. EVER. perhaps i was descartes in a past life movie. this world looks and feels very 'real', but to what witnesses? our senses. are our senses 'real'? and are they registering what is 'real'? can we trust them? or our own perceptions? our interpretations? anyone else's? and to what end? everything here comes and goes. depressing, isn't it. people, places and things are not forever. history is just anybody's best guess. ideas are so limited. the drama is so limited. shadow figures on a wall, echos. why mess with it? surely there has to be more than this. this world is just another dead-end movie. entertaining at times. devastating at times. disappointing almost always. it's certainly not lasting, eternal, real. i'd rather give up all ideas about everything, let go of sensory data, and melt into a feeling, 'energy soup', 'ocean of bliss', 'cosmos', 'god'... who cares what anyone has ever called it? it makes life on planet earth not only bearable, but fun, for me. and when the movie ends, it won't be such a shock to my system if i've already made friends with the light that shines through the film. love, patricia On May 11, 2006, at 1:51 PM, temp_spk4 wrote: > Rick, > > What CAN be verified about history as a whole through the means of > archaeology? Not all that much considering this field consists > mostly of theories that are constantly reworked based on new finds > which are not easy to come by in the first place. Archaeology > affords us a very limited view of history at best. Is archeology even > capable of proving whether or not Jesus existed -- what kind of > evidence would prove this? How meaniful is the lack of > archaeological evidence? To me it is more telling that we have a > written record of the life of Jesus Christ in the form of the vairous > gospels than it is that we have a lack of achaeological evidence. A > lack of evidence is not capable of proving anything. While a record > at least indicates SOMETHING. > > Obviously, we all have different life experiences that shape our > beliefs regarding things that we do not have the opportunity to > experience first hand or by hard evidence. > > To me it comes down to a matter of trust/faith. If you essentially > trust others and acknowledge that there are those who know more than > we do then it is possible to accept things w/o needing first-hand > experience or hard evidence. Regarding the life of Jesus Christ, it > was reading the _Autobiography of a Yogi_ that settled it for me. I > have no reason not to trust what Paramahansa Yogananda has written > regarding his experiences. But you are right, in this case too, it > is a choice to take his word for it or not. The experiences > described by Paramahansa Yogananda are quite amazing and he visited > and wrote about the extraordinary lives of many saints of his day. > > Since the time of Jesus, there have been saints that experienced > the passion of Christ such as the stigmatist Therese Neumann of > Konnersreuth who relived the passion in visions. Again, this is > something that one can either accept or not based whether you trust > the experiences of others. > > For people who are open to the possibility there is plenty of > support, for people who are not open to the possibility there will > always be a lack of hard evidence to point to. > > Even if Jesus or Krishna or Moses did write things down and the > writings survived and were discovered -- would that be enough? How > would it be proven to the point of certainty that they were the > authors and what they wrote was true? What kind of proof is > required? > > You are right - what I wrote about earlier stems from my life > experiences and is based on what is written in the bible and other > corroborating sources and not on concrete proven facts. > > However, with out knowing for sure, to call the life of Jesus or > Moses or Krishna "myths" is as much a statement of personal belief as > anything I have written. > > valist, Das Goravani <> wrote: >> >> >> >> I have a book called "The archaeology of the Bible". >> >> It shows what is archaeologically known about all the stories in > the whole >> bible, including the part about Jesus. It's not much. >> >> Secondly, Jesus is only mentioned once, in brief, in the Roman > histories >> written in his day. >> >> His real disciples, the 12, didn't do much in terms of expanding > any church. >> This is because they stayed within the Jewish circle, which they > knew was >> Christ's intent. It was Paul, who never met Jesus, who spread what > we call >> the Christian faith. The other one, called "The original christian > church" >> was very small and died off fast. >> >> It was after hundreds of years of Paul's message circulating in the > Roman >> provinces, that Rome had to submit, and after that, Paul's creation > spread >> everywhere. >> >> What we actually know for sure about the person and life of Christ > is very >> little. We actually, you could say, don't know anything for sure. > It's all >> a myth, just like with Krishna. >> >> The only reason we know anything about Julius Caesar's actual > thoughts and >> so forth, is that he wrote them down. He lived just before > Christ. If >> Christ wrote things, and if they were preserved, that would help. > But it >> didn't happen. >> >> Take Vercingetorix, another contemporary of that era, the military > leader of >> the Celts against Rome...he wrote nothing down, so we know nothing > about >> him. Nobody argues with this. There are a few quotes from him, but > we get >> those from Roman Histories. Unless things are written and > preserved, the >> rest is heresay. >> >> If you are scientific, and equipoised about his matter, you will > conclude >> that Jesus, as he is known amongst the people's of the world, is a > myth, >> much like Merlin and Arthur, who lived in roughly 400 AD supposedly. >> Because there is no written record, it's all myth. >> >> So if you say "Jesus personified the divine" or ANYTHING along > those lines, >> you are giving YOUR TAKE on A MYTH and nothing more. Nothing more. >> >> The thing called Christianity, like the thing called Hinduism, is > largely a >> culturally created and spread myth. >> >> Both of them speak of "God", and nobody has ever met this person. >> >> Obviously there is a great truth, and obviously life can be lived > more or >> less in union with the truths that surround us. >> >> Pretty much, end of story. >> >> Christianity is a myth and we cannot be sure about anything "Christ > said" >> because the papers such things are written on cannot be said to be > authentic >> in any way, and Paul's creation, cannot said to be that of Christ. >> Basically, it's all a misleading myth. Sorry. >> >> That's my learned opinion. >> >> And if someone yells at me, they'll be talking to a brick wall. >> >> Life is splendid and beautiful, and I love myths. I like watching > the Moses >> mythg, the Jesus myth, the Pandavas myth, the Ram myth, the Krishna > mythg, >> and I love Stargate SG1, the modern TV myth series, and in my head > I too am >> a myth, a great guy with great abilities..that too is a myth. >> >> "May the Peace of Christ be with you always, >> and may you be in heaven a half hour, before the devils knows your > dead" >> >> Rick >> > > > Links > > > > > > ANNOUNCING the release of my new book... THE RAPE OF INNOCENCE : One Woman's Story of Female Genital Mutilation in the USA" A high-quality trade paperback 110 pages 7" x 8.5" x .25" Retail price $19.95 Terms: Batches of 3, 30% discount Batches of 5, 40% discount Shipping included No returns I will be happy to send an e-book for your review. Sincerely, Patricia Robinett p.s. See front and back of book cover, chapter title and excerpt at http://www.AesculapiusPress.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 Thank you, and same to you, Rick. I agree that the Church and, in general, organized religions are gradually coming to an end. This was a topic that is close to my heart as well because my mom is a very devout Catholic and truly gets a lot out of it. And when I visit with her I attend church with her. So my perspective is in large part colored by this. Let me say that I really appreciate your straight-forwardness and your writings in general. I, and many others I am sure, relate to you because of your willingness to write honestly about yourself. I think we all experience essentially the same emotions to varying degrees and we can therefore relate readily to the honest of expression of the same. Did you see the movie _Crash_? I thought is was wonderful in pointing out how alike we all are. Perhaps wishes are futile, I do not know, but I wish you all the best anyway! Thank you for a lively discussion. valist, Das Goravani <> wrote: > > > Well said. > > I know about the Gospels. They are pretty scant, and you know, who knows > for sure who wrote them and if they were under the influence of an already > expanded mythological story line. > > Having come from a family and tradition (Irish Catholic 11 Kids) that caused > me and those I know severe pain under the guise of the "Rules of the Holy > Church" I am just really sensitive to the issue. > > I have upside down crosses painted on my car, and it for the above reason. > > I also suffered (and gained alot) through the Krishna stories. > > I'm just very sensitive now to religion since coming to realize how much > pain it causes. I'm not surprised that in this modern time the number of > priests joining is far less than the number dieing. I think the days of > such a Church are, and should be, over. > > But you're right, this too is just an opinion. A lived opinion as Irish, as > Seminarian, as Catholic. You know, my mother was buriedin a Nun's > graveyard. > > That should say alot. > > Well anyway, no biggee, onwards and upwards... > > Love > > T Rick ster > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 Patricia, you ARE deep. And I think you have written about this idea of not really being able to prove anything before. I can agree with what you have written. Though, I feel like this life is not be taken so lightly that we take it for granted and "squander" our time here which is I guess is a fear of mine and may not have to do with the ultimate truth. I hope you are right that it won't be such a shock to your system when you pass on. I know that I am quite attached to some things and a final "letting go" would be very difficult, despite a general awareness that the body & ego & what is experienced via the senses are not the be all and end all. I can only trust that my future life experiences will prepare me for the time to let go. Letting go must be part of a huge "letting in" as well and ultimately my hope is that whatever occurs after physical death is NEW and at least as good as life here. I am optimistic and tend to think the chances of that are pretty high. In the meantime, I am mostly happy to be here to experience what I am given to experience. And often I feel tremendous gratitude for what is given. That is my favorite feeling. Though, I still get depressed, angry, frustrated, and so forth as well. valist, Patricia Robinett <patricia wrote: > > i was a tiny child when i realize that NOTHING could EVER be proved. > > NOTHING. > > EVER. > > perhaps i was descartes in a past life movie. > > this world looks and feels very 'real', but to what witnesses? > our senses. are our senses 'real'? > and are they registering what is 'real'? > can we trust them? or our own perceptions? > our interpretations? anyone else's? > > and to what end? everything here comes and goes. > depressing, isn't it. > people, places and things are not forever. > history is just anybody's best guess. > ideas are so limited. > the drama is so limited. > shadow figures on a wall, echos. > why mess with it? > surely there has to be more than this. > this world is just another dead-end movie. > entertaining at times. devastating at times. > disappointing almost always. > it's certainly not lasting, eternal, real. > i'd rather give up all ideas about everything, > let go of sensory data, and melt into a feeling, > 'energy soup', 'ocean of bliss', 'cosmos', 'god'... > who cares what anyone has ever called it? > it makes life on planet earth not only bearable, but fun, for me. > and when the movie ends, it won't be such a shock > to my system if i've already made friends with the light > that shines through the film. > love, patricia > > On May 11, 2006, at 1:51 PM, temp_spk4 wrote: > > > Rick, > > > > What CAN be verified about history as a whole through the means of > > archaeology? Not all that much considering this field consists > > mostly of theories that are constantly reworked based on new finds > > which are not easy to come by in the first place. Archaeology > > affords us a very limited view of history at best. Is archeology even > > capable of proving whether or not Jesus existed -- what kind of > > evidence would prove this? How meaniful is the lack of > > archaeological evidence? To me it is more telling that we have a > > written record of the life of Jesus Christ in the form of the vairous > > gospels than it is that we have a lack of achaeological evidence. A > > lack of evidence is not capable of proving anything. While a record > > at least indicates SOMETHING. > > > > Obviously, we all have different life experiences that shape our > > beliefs regarding things that we do not have the opportunity to > > experience first hand or by hard evidence. > > > > To me it comes down to a matter of trust/faith. If you essentially > > trust others and acknowledge that there are those who know more than > > we do then it is possible to accept things w/o needing first-hand > > experience or hard evidence. Regarding the life of Jesus Christ, it > > was reading the _Autobiography of a Yogi_ that settled it for me. I > > have no reason not to trust what Paramahansa Yogananda has written > > regarding his experiences. But you are right, in this case too, it > > is a choice to take his word for it or not. The experiences > > described by Paramahansa Yogananda are quite amazing and he visited > > and wrote about the extraordinary lives of many saints of his day. > > > > Since the time of Jesus, there have been saints that experienced > > the passion of Christ such as the stigmatist Therese Neumann of > > Konnersreuth who relived the passion in visions. Again, this is > > something that one can either accept or not based whether you trust > > the experiences of others. > > > > For people who are open to the possibility there is plenty of > > support, for people who are not open to the possibility there will > > always be a lack of hard evidence to point to. > > > > Even if Jesus or Krishna or Moses did write things down and the > > writings survived and were discovered -- would that be enough? How > > would it be proven to the point of certainty that they were the > > authors and what they wrote was true? What kind of proof is > > required? > > > > You are right - what I wrote about earlier stems from my life > > experiences and is based on what is written in the bible and other > > corroborating sources and not on concrete proven facts. > > > > However, with out knowing for sure, to call the life of Jesus or > > Moses or Krishna "myths" is as much a statement of personal belief as > > anything I have written. > > > > valist, Das Goravani <das@> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> I have a book called "The archaeology of the Bible". > >> > >> It shows what is archaeologically known about all the stories in > > the whole > >> bible, including the part about Jesus. It's not much. > >> > >> Secondly, Jesus is only mentioned once, in brief, in the Roman > > histories > >> written in his day. > >> > >> His real disciples, the 12, didn't do much in terms of expanding > > any church. > >> This is because they stayed within the Jewish circle, which they > > knew was > >> Christ's intent. It was Paul, who never met Jesus, who spread what > > we call > >> the Christian faith. The other one, called "The original christian > > church" > >> was very small and died off fast. > >> > >> It was after hundreds of years of Paul's message circulating in the > > Roman > >> provinces, that Rome had to submit, and after that, Paul's creation > > spread > >> everywhere. > >> > >> What we actually know for sure about the person and life of Christ > > is very > >> little. We actually, you could say, don't know anything for sure. > > It's all > >> a myth, just like with Krishna. > >> > >> The only reason we know anything about Julius Caesar's actual > > thoughts and > >> so forth, is that he wrote them down. He lived just before > > Christ. If > >> Christ wrote things, and if they were preserved, that would help. > > But it > >> didn't happen. > >> > >> Take Vercingetorix, another contemporary of that era, the military > > leader of > >> the Celts against Rome...he wrote nothing down, so we know nothing > > about > >> him. Nobody argues with this. There are a few quotes from him, but > > we get > >> those from Roman Histories. Unless things are written and > > preserved, the > >> rest is heresay. > >> > >> If you are scientific, and equipoised about his matter, you will > > conclude > >> that Jesus, as he is known amongst the people's of the world, is a > > myth, > >> much like Merlin and Arthur, who lived in roughly 400 AD supposedly. > >> Because there is no written record, it's all myth. > >> > >> So if you say "Jesus personified the divine" or ANYTHING along > > those lines, > >> you are giving YOUR TAKE on A MYTH and nothing more. Nothing more. > >> > >> The thing called Christianity, like the thing called Hinduism, is > > largely a > >> culturally created and spread myth. > >> > >> Both of them speak of "God", and nobody has ever met this person. > >> > >> Obviously there is a great truth, and obviously life can be lived > > more or > >> less in union with the truths that surround us. > >> > >> Pretty much, end of story. > >> > >> Christianity is a myth and we cannot be sure about anything "Christ > > said" > >> because the papers such things are written on cannot be said to be > > authentic > >> in any way, and Paul's creation, cannot said to be that of Christ. > >> Basically, it's all a misleading myth. Sorry. > >> > >> That's my learned opinion. > >> > >> And if someone yells at me, they'll be talking to a brick wall. > >> > >> Life is splendid and beautiful, and I love myths. I like watching > > the Moses > >> mythg, the Jesus myth, the Pandavas myth, the Ram myth, the Krishna > > mythg, > >> and I love Stargate SG1, the modern TV myth series, and in my head > > I too am > >> a myth, a great guy with great abilities..that too is a myth. > >> > >> "May the Peace of Christ be with you always, > >> and may you be in heaven a half hour, before the devils knows your > > dead" > >> > >> Rick > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ANNOUNCING the release of my new book... > > THE RAPE OF INNOCENCE : > One Woman's Story of Female Genital Mutilation in the USA" > > A high-quality trade paperback > 110 pages > 7" x 8.5" x .25" > Retail price $19.95 > > Terms: Batches of 3, 30% discount > Batches of 5, 40% discount > Shipping included > No returns > > I will be happy to send an e-book for your review. > > Sincerely, > Patricia Robinett > > p.s. See front and back of book cover, chapter title > and excerpt at http://www.AesculapiusPress.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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