Guest guest Posted February 12, 2006 Report Share Posted February 12, 2006 Privately Patricia tells me I’m a brat and a drama king. This just makes me wanna say or resay a few things. Using the word “Drama” in this way, is in vogue here. It’s a pretty recent addition to the politically correct words of modern communication. It’s such a complex definition, I can’t really tell you what it means easily, so I’m going to skip that, hoping the audience already knows it. To me, it’s an insult to say to me I’m a drama driven person. But I know why she says it, about my writings here on this list, and she knows me in person too. But I just want to say, look, this is the truth, I’ve been a bit unique all my life, and yes, I wanted fame, which is an ego thing, but it got twisted and broken and changed early on, my ego, because I gave up rock stardom at 19 for Krishna, and really, did not go back, for real. When I got hit by my problems some years back, I pronounced my woes to this list, and did so repeatedly over time. I did this, one one level, because I had all the symptoms of Borderline Personality Disorder, and that’s one of the things they do. On another level, I was lonely, and you were all I had. I don’t make friends easily. It’s that unique thing again. Nobody can take me for very long, or me them, something. So I wrote to you, this list. The list has a few thorns from time to time, upon me, because of my openness and unique views. Now Patricia won’t lay off, and that’s fine. Got no problem with it on one level, but I’m just trying to stop it, on another. I’m trying right now to stop it. I’m not into this list so much as to like it really. The letters I get have never actually helped me. I always still hurt after writing to this list. I never got the cure or help I needed from those letters. They were stupid of me to do. Then there’s the aspect of the letters that they generate discussion and some people appreciate it and have written so here today as well. So sometimes I represent myself, what happened, tell my story, because that ball is rolling, and I’m following through. I feel a certain responsibility too, because somebody might some day have a family member, or it might help them understand a co-worker, relative, etc. I’ve gotten a lot better over time. I’m not at all as bad as I used to be. I still do get attacks, though, and sometimes they are bad enough to where I do the stupid thing and write it out to the list. That whole woman thing, it may seem weird to some people, for me to talk like that, but it’s been a real issue for me, and during attacks, things distort, take on totally wrong emotional proportions, and then you write about it that way, and people think you’re weird. Actually you could be accurately described as transcribing your bad acid trip to the world. That would be about the same meaning. I’ve gotten so much better. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better. I like attention, yeah, I was born an entertainer. I can sing and play guitar real well, and want to again, at gigs around town. I paint art on my car, dress up funny, and other things. Yeah, so what. I like it. That’s me. That’s what I do. I’ve always been that way, as a kid, and still am. So what? It’s not real gratifying to talk about pain and mental disease though. It’s not like I’m proud. I get a bad taste often from this list and this identity I have here, including the mental stuff. I’m not into that. I’m into doing stuff, making things, being creative and productive. But this happened, and serious stuff like this require serious handling, and truth, and people benefit from truth. So I went on and did, it has a large portion of philanthropy towards our shared understanding of ourselves. It does. Don’t try to make it seem like that’s not a part of me. It is a part of me. It’s also a part of me to be really honest, and provocative. I find it healthy for everyone, and many have told me they agree. So I’m not going to see myself as a drama king. Nor a rabble rouser. I am usually pretty darn sincere, honest, well meaning, and yeah, I like attention, but that doesn’t remove the first ones- sincerity, honesty, and well meaning. Because I am a lot better, and somewhat over this phase, I may not be so much the active needy one, as the one who can talk about that stuff in past tense. Also however, because it’s getting old, I may not as actively want to respond to the subject, having been there already, and done that before. I would like to say, I still believe in predeterminism as the truth, but I’ve come to realize clearly that people in general, including astrologers, tend to not like this idea, or they can’t see it, or something. I don’t know... I can just see this vision, where the whole creation starts as like a drop, and expands into many mothers giving birth to many babies, on many planets, that all come out of that drop, and because each kid starts in a mother who started in a mother all the way back, the development is just simply directly linked without break to the start, and then the end, is linked to the start, and I can just see, that all things are doing what they should, and yet witnesses yes, of course, inside those carbon units, will not know the script mabye, and having been patched into their unit fully, think they are thinking and moving it. So...I can see it’s a big preprogrammed school, and I’ve stuck to this without sway for years, and still do. Just wanna say that. Oh yeah, always to go with that, is this: Although I say the above, I also say, always, that the above is useless practically speaking. Pragamatically speaking, we have to live the day to day life in the world of choices and responsibility. We have to live the lie, in other words. We must. That’s the school. Maya is the school. So, it’s makes no difference, but I’m a stickler for what I believe to be the truth. That’s all. This is what I think is true: We are simultaneously, a part of a “one” which not contains us, but fully programs us. Simultaneously, we are choosing everything as if we are in control, and it feels a lot like we are in control, a lot of the time, around our body and our little lives. But don’t start thinking about Tsunami waves, death, diseases, or anything real, or your paradigm of control will crumble. Lastly, I have carefully studied Hinduism to be sure. I also studied Roman and Celtic thought, and some other things. I really don’t anymore like the fully mental approach which is more Eastern kindof, you know, a lot of talk about the falsity of the world, the kshetrajna, and like Patricia’s thing...thoughts create this, and that creates this, and blah blah blah logic about life.... I’ve realized I have a choice in how I think, and the invasion of Indian thought that took place in my lifetime here in America which swallowed me whole, is not the only game in my mind anymore. I can think other things without thinking I’m going to hell (Hare Krishna early days mentality which I was taught). Nope, I can think other things. One counselor once gave me the phrase “You have to happy inside your own skin” So I’ve found things that work for me, and they are often very material things. Like, I guess I’m saying, these days, I find help in the physical, like say, Hot Chocolate. That’s a therapy. Simple, stupid, yeah, all that, but it works for me. Makes me happy, end of story. Nothing to talk about. Painting Celtic Art. It just works for me. End of Story. If Celtic stuff makes me think of past wars, well, then it does. I can’t throw away my comfort because it has bad things connected to it, it’s also my undeniable ancestry. If I apply some of these modern politically correct ways of Eastern thinking to myself at these times, everything goes haywire in my head. It’s like I have to choose- it’s either Celt or Hindu. I’ve been finding Celt. It comforts me. I am that, this is not a trip, this is a reality. I’m babbling this simply to show another way of thinking and speaking. I wish I could properly say what I’m trying to say. I guess I could say “It’s OK if we have completely different realities while coexisting here, so long as we don’t try to harm each other”. That’s my thought. I’m trying to share that I’ve found other things outside Hinduism. I used to only have Hinduism. Now I have other things. When finding these other things, I also found a reality where the flow of logic and philosophy don’t apply. I found a place, or a way of feeling and thinking, which I know to be somewhat ancestral for me, and which is different from the modern way of thinking, feeling, willing, etc., just as Gaelic is so different sounding from English. Guess I’m also saying, that I really don’t appreciate being belittled, made fun of, put down, or doubted, not trusted, here. But I think the main one is any kind of put down. Don’t really like that. I’m not playing and I’m not open to being “the stupid guy” in someone’s post either, not anymore at least. Thanks Rick/Das das (AT) goravani (DOT) com Secure online ordering of Goravani Jyotish 2.5 and Jyotish Studio 3 or (Please use email if at all possible) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 Dear Das, You Wrote: //It's not real gratifying to talk about pain and mental disease though. It's not like I'm proud. I get a bad taste often from this list and this identity I have here, including the mental stuff. I'm not into that. I'm into doing stuff, making things, being creative and productive. But this happened, and serious stuff like this require serious handling, and truth, and people benefit from truth.// Although I don't participate on your list these days, I do read the mail from time to time. And, like many, all I can do is be a witness to the pain you often have to endure. Like many I wish I could change things for you but we all know that karma cannot be changed - not even by the most ardent well-wishers. In my opinion it's extremely short-sighted of those who tell you "It's all in the mind" and that you should think positive thoughts. All I can say is that such advice does not come from the pen of any "learned" astrologer. Of course it's all in the mind...and the mind is afflicted. What comes from that mind is a reflection of that affliction. Das, the chart that's been put forward to study (on my group) this week is of another well-known sufferer of mental illness. As soon as I looked at the chart I was reminded of you...so many similarities! In the chart I speak of, the native suffers from schizophrenia whilst you suffer from Bi-Polar; none-the-less the similarities are great. I'm sure (I hope) you won't mind if I comment (on my group) about the similarities between the two charts. I'll tell you a little bit here of what I see... As we know the trishadaya lords (3,6,11) give evil effects according to Parashara. In your case, 4th lord Moon, conjunct Ketu, occupies 11th and is aspected by 11th lord Saturn - Saturn, as we know is the planet of depression. In the study chart, Moon is conjunct 11th lord Mars who BTW disposits SA/KE. In both charts Moon's affliction by trishadaya lord is evident. Two different illnesses, of course, but the affliction is clear. Similarly you both have a unique genius in a particular field. Take Care Das, and know that there are many who do have compassion for the pain you have to endure, and, although it's often painful to read, we don't pass judgement. In the words of Christ; "Judge not lest ye yourselves be judged". Best Wishes, Wendy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 - not even by the most ardent well-wishers. In my opinion it's extremely short-sighted of those who tell you "It's all in the mind" and that you should think positive thoughts. All I can say is that such advice does not come from the pen of any "learned" astrologer.Of course it's all in the mind...and the mind is afflicted. What comes from that mind is a reflection of that affliction.Das, the chart that's been put forward to study (on my group) this week is of another well-known sufferer of mental illness. As soon as I looked at the chart I was reminded of you...so many similarities! In the chart I speak of, the native suffers from schizophrenia whilst you suffer from Bi-Polar; none-the-less the similarities are great. I'm sure (I hope) you won't mind if I comment (on my group) about the similarities between the two charts. I'll tell you a little bit here of what I see...As we know the trishadaya lords (3,6,11) give evil effects according to Parashara. In your case, 4th lord Moon, conjunct Ketu, occupies 11th and is aspected by 11th lord Saturn - Saturn, as we know is the planet of depression. In the study chart, Moon is conjunct 11th lord Mars who BTW disposits SA/KE. In both charts Moon's affliction by trishadaya lord is evident. Two different illnesses, of course, but the affliction is clear. Similarly you both have a unique genius in a particular field.Take Care Das, and know that there are many who do have compassion for the pain you have to endure, and, although it's often painful to read, we don't pass judgement.In the words of Christ; "Judge not lest ye yourselves be judged".Best Wishes,Wendy : For software visit: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 astrologer. We all are more-less sufferers, at least in certain periods we become aware of our pains inevitably, and that seems to be the essence of life itself. I find naksatra consideration very useful in this regard- it would be great to hear your opinion on this. Love, Anna Wendy Vasicek <jyotish (AT) optusnet (DOT) com.au> wrote: Dear Das,You Wrote://It's not real gratifying to talk about pain and mental diseasethough. It's not like I'm proud. I get a bad taste often from thislist and this identity I have here, including the mental stuff. I'mnot into that. I'm into doing stuff, making things, being creativeand productive. But this happened, and serious stuff like thisrequire serious handling, and truth, and people benefit from truth.//Although I don't participate on your list these days, I do read the mail from time to time. And, like many, all I can do is be a witness to the pain you often have to endure. Like many I wish I could change things for you but we all know that karma cannot be changed - not even by the most ardent well-wishers. In my opinion it's extremely short-sighted of those who tell you "It's all in the mind" and that you should think positive thoughts. All I can say is that such advice does not come from the pen of any "learned" astrologer.Of course it's all in the mind...and the mind is afflicted. What comes from that mind is a reflection of that affliction.Das, the chart that's been put forward to study (on my group) this week is of another well-known sufferer of mental illness. As soon as I looked at the chart I was reminded of you...so many similarities! In the chart I speak of, the native suffers from schizophrenia whilst you suffer from Bi-Polar; none-the-less the similarities are great. I'm sure (I hope) you won't mind if I comment (on my group) about the similarities between the two charts. I'll tell you a little bit here of what I see...As we know the trishadaya lords (3,6,11) give evil effects according to Parashara. In your case, 4th lord Moon, conjunct Ketu, occupies 11th and is aspected by 11th lord Saturn - Saturn, as we know is the planet of depression. In the study chart, Moon is conjunct 11th lord Mars who BTW disposits SA/KE. In both charts Moon's affliction by trishadaya lord is evident. Two different illnesses, of course, but the affliction is clear. Similarly you both have a unique genius in a particular field.Take Care Das, and know that there are many who do have compassion for the pain you have to endure, and, although it's often painful to read, we don't pass judgement.In the words of Christ; "Judge not lest ye yourselves be judged".Best Wishes,Wendy To , send an email to: For software visit: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 On Feb 13, 2006, at 3:31 AM, Wendy Vasicek wrote: > Although I don't participate on your list these days, I do read the > mail from time to time. And, like many, all I can do is be a witness > to the pain you often have to endure. Like many I wish I could change > things for you but we all know that karma cannot be changed - not > even by the most ardent well-wishers. something has occurred to me the past few years. i call it the tyranny of religion. not the tyranny of god, for god is not a tyrant, but the tyranny of religion, because religion is a less than god. religion is a business. religion is manmade. religion takes its power from the human need for, love of, drive for the ultimate reality. religion asks man to sacrifice his intelligence and wisdom, his power and integrity, his quest for god and burn it on an altar called 'belief'. i suggest there is something else that every scripture has advocated and that is, knowledge. to know. to know what god is in our heart of hearts and to live our lives from that core experience of love and power and wisdom and peace. i call it religion tyranny because it does not serve individuals, does not respect who and what they are, but serves instead to control people, like a political institution. now, perhaps karma began as an effort to reduce judgment among people. ? i don't know. if so, that could be a kind intention. judgment definitely sucks. no one wishes to be judged. and so perhaps 'karma' was one idea of how to keep people from judging one another... 'it's his KARMA... he is POWERLESS OVER IT... so we don't QUESTION it.' that is, perhaps how we humans think we need to be so that we are not judgmental. but we can see see clearly AND love each other without condemnation. it's very possible. everyone is worthy. or they wouldn't be breathing. spirit is breath. spirit finds us all worthy, apparently. and it sounds very much to me as if the eastern idea of karma is not all that different from the western idea of sin. even though there are many indications in the bible that humans were made in the image and likeness of god, and that they are pure and innocent, the emphasis in all three of the 'monotheistic' religions that have been based on abraham, is now on 'sin.' and especially we 'sin' if we question religion. LOL we experience the results of our actions & thoughts. period. we will and do because that is just how things work on planet earth. you stub your toe and it either breaks or at least hurts a lot. ouch! you think 'lemon' and your mouth salivates. karma. cause, effect. simple, sweet. but i don't believe 'karma' indicates we are condemned to experience hell for our entire lifetimes. that is not how i see it at all. i see it like this: i stub my toe. i feel the pain. i move the rebounder and learn to walk more slowly into the kitchen instead of charging in there like a race horse. i think, life is hard; life is hard. i think, life is easy; life is easy. i think, life is fun; life is fun. we are always experiencing the effects of our thinking and doing. but eternal hell is not our lot. nothing is all that bad. why? because we are in a sandbox and we are children playing and there is no eternal effect that we can cause with our sandcastles and finger 'POW!' 'BANG! BANG!' guns. nothing is forever except the Forever. you can build a case all you want for all the horror and terror and punishment and blame, shame, guilt, sin, etc... but every scripture points to love and forgiveness and letting go of the past and coming up to date... where all is well. just because we don't necessarily know how to do it, doesn't mean it can't be done. the superstars all came to show us how. scriptures are here to tell us it's possible, even if they are just tiny wisps of memories of the reality of the love and power and glory that is within us all. there are many things that are mysterious to us humans about life on planet earth. but our fixed ideas about sin and punishment, karma etc... i believe are far more harmful than helpful. i was wondering the other day how such an intelligent man as das could fall hook line and sinker for such a negative view of life and now i realize he was set up for it perfectly from childhood. we all were. we all were indoctrinated to believe that the best we could expect was 'belief' and that we are somehow victims of some huge system that scolds, punishes, condemns, and sends us to hell if we don't CONFORM. LOL. but that has nothing to do with god... that pure energy that IS light itself, that IS love itself, that IS life itself, that knows no boundaries, no limits, no rancor, no judgment, no hatred, nothing but just IS. and IS, beautifully, kindly, sweetly, in us, all around us, always. we are love and we are loved. period. what was it socrates said? 'the unexamined life isn't worth living?' i don't think he was advocating suicide; i think he was advocating examining every thought we have, because some of them might work, and some of them might be counterproductive. god is the love in everything that is loving. god is the beauty in everything that is beautiful. god is the thrill in everything that is thrilling. god is the light that john saw, that arjuna saw, that buddha showed HIS disciples, that lao tsu saw... and so on. god is purity, innocence, kindness... god does not punish; we punish ourselves and we demonstrate by punishing ourselves that we do not yet know god. if we knew love we would know that we are never without it and that it would never choose anything less than happiness for us -- always. and that is our work here... not to suffer but to get OUT of suffering, to be FREE of suffering, to find the love inside and let it be our life. to find the pain inside and let it GO... for once and for all. human systems are less than that wise and loving. human teachings need to be examined, challenged, thoroughly scrutinized. original scriptures are always beautiful and helpful (as long as they are translated accurately). the origin is immaculate; human minds through the ages have distorted the messages. stick to the original source. "Whence this lifeless dejection, Arjuna? Strong men know not despair.... for this wins neither heaven nor earth. Fall not into degrading weakness. Throw off this ignoble discouragement and arise like a fire that burns all before it. - krishna pain and suffering is not what we are. it is not what god is. it is not what you are. love, patricia *** "Nothing is so firmly believed, as what we least know" - Michael de Montaigne *** Patricia Robinett www.aesculapiuspress.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 Hi Patricia You do not know Hinduism. Das ist fer sur. Karma means "work". That's all. It refers to "action". It does not mean bad or good. There are other words like ugrakarma, vikarma, akarma, etc., that refer to the various forms that action and work can aquire or be. There are forbiden works, awful works, good works, etc., so the prefix is all important. Americans use this word much too sloppily, in other words. And in the Gita, Krishna says He Himself is the founder of Real Dharma, which means "duties" which is really the closest word to religion in the common Hindu languages. So in Hindu religion, they see GOD as the founder, so there's no way you can say "Religion is BS" to BELIEVING Hindus. Nowadays many are mixed, quite westernized, and they will agree with you. On this list we have those, but we also have older Brahmins, who stick to the old ways. Judgementalism is impossible to eradicate because it is a primary force within creation. It is referred to by some as the survival of the fittest, and in other more human circles as "classes". In fact, we are all constantly judging everything, like whether to cross a street, or whether to talk to a person. We have to discriminate. This is the same as judgeing. I guess you mean final judgement upon a person for all time. Yeah, that's a bit too binding. But we are always judging each other in our minds. To say otherwise in my opinion is simply a lie. As long as Jupiter exists, so will Judgment. And Jupiter will always exist. As for original sin, the Vedas have something similar. However, the details of this are in argument forever. But one thing is certain, we suffer here, we are not in control, and we don't know where or why we are here. So this very much smacks of a prison. The Vedas call it a prison. Prison is punishment. And we were born here, kindof indicating that there might have been some mistake made in a previous life or place. Or, we NEED to be here to learn, like kids. Either way, there seems to be some primordial flaw because we are imprisoned and suffering. It makes sense as one theory. i think, life is hard; life is hard. i think, life is easy; life is easy. i think, life is fun; life is fun. we are always experiencing the effects of our thinking and doing. but eternal hell is not our lot. nothing is all that bad. Sorry Patricia, this is just over the top. You are really misled. I think you need a tour of real suffering, and we'll let you preach this stuff there, and we'll take you to the hospital after people with real suffering mutilate you for your offensive optimism. Nothing is all that bad. Yeah, OK, nothing is so bad. Hmmm. Vietnam? Iraq? Leg blown off, Iraqi runs at you with knife, and starts sawing at your throat so he can show off your head. There's an old saying in the British Army, that if you are "hit" in Afghanistan, then roll over onto your rifle and shoot yourself, because if you don't, it won't be long before the Afghan woman come over to saw you up alive into useful little pieces. Um. Or, how about Leprosy, and you live in the Calcutta train station? Or how about the shit I've been through. I once enjoyed cutting myself because it felt good compared to the horror of what was going on in my head. You are in some sort of happy space right now in life. For all I know you take some happy drug you're not telling us about. But one things for sure, you have forgotten that suffering exists, and is real. You quote the Gita. The Gita says there is Hell, and I can vouchsafe for that one, and it says there is immense suffering being dished out to the Jiva souls. If quoting Hinduism in any way, please remember that it fully recognizes suffering, as well as the martial rule of a King, and Capital Punishment for things like rape, housebreakin, and other things. Also, many Hindu temples will not let white people in, because they are "too low class". So please, lets be consistant. Here in Eugene you have so many hippie girls, barely dressed, worshipping Bob Marley and his Reggae Music. They have his picture EVERYWHERE along with Jerry Garcia of the Greatful Dead. Little do they seem to know that Bob Marley and his fellow Rastafaris are full-on Bible thumping Black Jews who think they are higher than whitee, think they can patriarchally abuse woman, especially white woman. I mean, the girls who are "grooving to Marley" have no idea how much MALICE he and his men HOLD TOWARDS THEM. Similarly, Hinduism, the Bhag. Gita, Patricia, they are so far away from what you say, that to quote the Gita in one of your posts is ironic. Ironic. You and your philosophy would thoroughly offend any scholar/believer of Hinduism. This is why KN Rao, despite his personal faults, could not tolerate coming to America. It was all this New Age belief crap that he hated. Now please don't misunderstand who I am here. I am not on his side, nor your side. I have my own side. I'm just being a journalist here. I'm sure many Indians are reading this and saying "Yep, that's all true". White people are doing with Hinduism what the Irish did with Christianity. They adapted it to their previous beliefs and it became "Celtic Christianity" for awhile with some Druidic stuff retained. I've experienced Hinduism central, the Orthodox original taught in Sanskrit at a real Ashram, one that shuns Westerners, not welcomes them, because it knows their polluting effect on things Hindu. I learned there. I was lucky. What Patricia speaks is new, it's a summary type of belief created by many sincere minds over the last 5 decades mainly, it's a blend of common sense, obvious inferences, Hinduism, Christianity, Gnostic stuff, Kabalic stuff, Egyption Stuff, American Indian stuff, you name it, I call it "Trail Mix" after the food that is so popular amongst such persons since the 70's (I'm one of those people, just fell into a puddle of Orthodoxy in another country while my classmates all went on to various American dreams and nightmares. >that is, perhaps how we humans think we need to be so that we are not judgmental. but we can see see clearly AND love each other without condemnation. it's very possible. everyone is worthy. or they wouldn't be breathing. spirit is breath. spirit finds us all worthy, apparently. As one with a strong Jupiter, I have no intention of ever giving up Judgement, or that is, discretion, the ability to know the best options and paths for myself and others. Giving up Judgement is just a string of words. Seeing clearly? There is no standard to how to see. Clarity is also a relative concept. No condemning? What would you do with Hitler after the war if he wasn't killed, and he was handed over to you Patricia? Spirit is Breath, Spirit finds us all worthy apparently. This is only poetry. It has no real meaning. If you mean to say the presence of life is PROOF of "worthiness", worthy for what? Love? What is love? My personal feeling is that LOVE Is when there is LIKE and TRUST mixed, and when you mix LONGEVITY OF RELATIONSHIP then Love starts to develop. It is a bond. It has nothing to do with sex, which can be taking place, or not, between people who love each other. I will not and cannot have a long relationship with certain types of people so I cannot love them. I can respect, appreciate, honor, avoid, but not love, the people I hate. If someone attacks someone I love, then I kill them, with hatred in my heart. Got a problem with that? The mumbo jumbo of words you rattle off so lengthy and freely so often appears to me to be a lot like "religion"....alot of words with little meaningful import. Sorry I'm on your case. Unfortunately I got really burnt out on that kind of talk from somebody else a couple years back, and I'm really not into it. Plus, I know you are tuff beyond comparison. I know you can take anything. I know, you can kick my ass. Thanks Rick/Das Secure online ordering of Goravani Jyotish 2.5 and Jyotish Studio 3 or (Please use email if at all possible) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 but in reverse, the 'negative'/photo./ of it, "action" in disguise which is going to earn negative connotation soon, and either a good insight, or new buzz words. Americans use KARMA= FATE, so we talk about two different types of phenomena under the same name. thus a ground for misunderstanding AnnaDas Goravani <das (AT) goravani (DOT) com> wrote: Hi PatriciaYou do not know Hinduism. Das ist fer sur.Karma means "work". That's all. It refers to "action". It does not meanbad or good. There are other words like ugrakarma, vikarma, akarma, etc.,that refer to the various forms that action and work can aquire or be.There are forbiden works, awful works, good works, etc., so the prefix isall important. Americans use this word much too sloppily, in other words.And in the Gita, Krishna says He Himself is the founder of Real Dharma,which means "duties" which is really the closest word to religion in thecommon Hindu languages. So in Hindu religion, they see GOD as the founder,so there's no way you can say "Religion is BS" to BELIEVING Hindus.Nowadays many are mixed, quite westernized, and they will agree with you.On this list we have those, but we also have older Brahmins, who stick tothe old ways. Judgementalism is impossible to eradicate because it is a primary forcewithin creation. It is referred to by some as the survival of the fittest,and in other more human circles as "classes". In fact, we are allconstantly judging everything, like whether to cross a street, or whether totalk to a person. We have to discriminate. This is the same as judgeing.I guess you mean final judgement upon a person for all time. Yeah, that's abit too binding. But we are always judging each other in our minds. To sayotherwise in my opinion is simply a lie. As long as Jupiter exists, so willJudgment. And Jupiter will always exist.As for original sin, the Vedas have something similar. However, the detailsof this are in argument forever. But one thing is certain, we suffer here,we are not in control, and we don't know where or why we are here. So thisvery much smacks of a prison. The Vedas call it a prison. Prison ispunishment. And we were born here, kindof indicating that there might havebeen some mistake made in a previous life or place. Or, we NEED to be hereto learn, like kids.Either way, there seems to be some primordial flaw because we are imprisonedand suffering. It makes sense as one theory.i think, life is hard; life is hard.i think, life is easy; life is easy.i think, life is fun; life is fun.we are always experiencing the effects of our thinkingand doing. but eternal hell is not our lot. nothing isall that bad. Sorry Patricia, this is just over the top. You are really misled. I thinkyou need a tour of real suffering, and we'll let you preach this stuffthere, and we'll take you to the hospital after people with real sufferingmutilate you for your offensive optimism.Nothing is all that bad.Yeah, OK, nothing is so bad. Hmmm. Vietnam? Iraq? Leg blown off, Iraqiruns at you with knife, and starts sawing at your throat so he can show offyour head.There's an old saying in the British Army, that if you are "hit" inAfghanistan, then roll over onto your rifle and shoot yourself, because ifyou don't, it won't be long before the Afghan woman come over to saw you upalive into useful little pieces. Um.Or, how about Leprosy, and you live in the Calcutta train station?Or how about the shit I've been through. I once enjoyed cutting myselfbecause it felt good compared to the horror of what was going on in my head.You are in some sort of happy space right now in life. For all I know youtake some happy drug you're not telling us about. But one things for sure,you have forgotten that suffering exists, and is real. You quote the Gita.The Gita says there is Hell, and I can vouchsafe for that one, and it saysthere is immense suffering being dished out to the Jiva souls.If quoting Hinduism in any way, please remember that it fully recognizessuffering, as well as the martial rule of a King, and Capital Punishment forthings like rape, housebreakin, and other things. Also, many Hindu templeswill not let white people in, because they are "too low class".So please, lets be consistant.Here in Eugene you have so many hippie girls, barely dressed, worshippingBob Marley and his Reggae Music. They have his picture EVERYWHERE alongwith Jerry Garcia of the Greatful Dead.Little do they seem to know that Bob Marley and his fellow Rastafaris arefull-on Bible thumping Black Jews who think they are higher than whitee,think they can patriarchally abuse woman, especially white woman. I mean,the girls who are "grooving to Marley" have no idea how much MALICE he andhis men HOLD TOWARDS THEM.Similarly, Hinduism, the Bhag. Gita, Patricia, they are so far away fromwhat you say, that to quote the Gita in one of your posts is ironic.Ironic.You and your philosophy would thoroughly offend any scholar/believer ofHinduism.This is why KN Rao, despite his personal faults, could not tolerate comingto America. It was all this New Age belief crap that he hated.Now please don't misunderstand who I am here. I am not on his side, noryour side. I have my own side. I'm just being a journalist here. I'm suremany Indians are reading this and saying "Yep, that's all true".White people are doing with Hinduism what the Irish did with Christianity.They adapted it to their previous beliefs and it became "CelticChristianity" for awhile with some Druidic stuff retained.I've experienced Hinduism central, the Orthodox original taught in Sanskritat a real Ashram, one that shuns Westerners, not welcomes them, because itknows their polluting effect on things Hindu. I learned there. I waslucky. What Patricia speaks is new, it's a summary type of belief created by manysincere minds over the last 5 decades mainly, it's a blend of common sense,obvious inferences, Hinduism, Christianity, Gnostic stuff, Kabalic stuff,Egyption Stuff, American Indian stuff, you name it, I call it "Trail Mix"after the food that is so popular amongst such persons since the 70's (I'mone of those people, just fell into a puddle of Orthodoxy in another countrywhile my classmates all went on to various American dreams and nightmares.>that is, perhaps how we humans think we need to beso that we are not judgmental. but we can see seeclearly AND love each other without condemnation.it's very possible. everyone is worthy. or theywouldn't be breathing. spirit is breath. spirit findsus all worthy, apparently. :)As one with a strong Jupiter, I have no intention of ever giving upJudgement, or that is, discretion, the ability to know the best options andpaths for myself and others. Giving up Judgement is just a string of words.Seeing clearly? There is no standard to how to see. Clarity is also arelative concept. No condemning? What would you do with Hitler after thewar if he wasn't killed, and he was handed over to you Patricia?Spirit is Breath, Spirit finds us all worthy apparently.This is only poetry. It has no real meaning. If you mean to say thepresence of life is PROOF of "worthiness", worthy for what? Love?What is love? My personal feeling is that LOVE Is when there is LIKE andTRUST mixed, and when you mix LONGEVITY OF RELATIONSHIP then Love starts todevelop. It is a bond. It has nothing to do with sex, which can be takingplace, or not, between people who love each other.I will not and cannot have a long relationship with certain types of peopleso I cannot love them. I can respect, appreciate, honor, avoid, but notlove, the people I hate. If someone attacks someone I love, then I killthem, with hatred in my heart. Got a problem with that?The mumbo jumbo of words you rattle off so lengthy and freely so oftenappears to me to be a lot like "religion"....alot of words with littlemeaningful import.Sorry I'm on your case. Unfortunately I got really burnt out on that kindof talk from somebody else a couple years back, and I'm really not into it.Plus, I know you are tuff beyond comparison. I know you can take anything.I know, you can kick my ass.ThanksRick/Das das (AT) goravani (DOT) comhttp://www.goravani.comSecure online ordering of Goravani Jyotish 2.5 and Jyotish Studio 32852 Willamette St #353 or (Please use email if at all possible): For software visit: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 On Feb 13, 2006, at 10:55 AM, Das Goravani wrote: > Hi Patricia > > You do not know Hinduism. Das ist fer sur. i may not know hinduism. but i know god. and i recognize tyranny. 'karma' that is unchangeable, endless suffering -- sounds like tyranny to me. and something there is that allows you to suffer -- ? something is amiss here, das. you do not deserve to suffer as you do. there is NOTHING you have EVER thought or said or done that deserves all that. 'pain is inevitable' -- yes. but 'suffering is optional' -- yes. pain is to help us keep from burning our hand up in the fire. it says, 'TAKE YOUR HAND OUT OF THE FIRE!' but suffering is holding the hand to the fire. i am advocating MAJOR evaluation of EVERYTHING that says suffering is inevitable and unchangeable and endless. that is religious tyranny. " 'contemplate the virtues of suffering' -- and while you're doing that, me and my sons will be over here, laughing our heads off, enjoying your gold and all the fat calves and rams roasted with fine herbs and spices..." -- leviticus. > Karma means "work". That's all. It refers to "action". yes, i understand that. action, cause, effect, right? " 'I am not doing any work,' thinks the man who is in harmony, who sees the truth. for in seeing or hearing, smelling or touching, in eating or walking, or sleeping or breathing, in talking or gasping or relaxing, and even in opening or closing his eyes, he remembers: It is the servants of my soul that are working." and that is why krishna could tell arjuna to fight and kill, "the eternal in man CANNOT kill, the eternal in man cannot BE killed." some say the '10 commandments' should be translated similarly. not, 'thou SHALL not kill' but "thou CANNOT kill (when you know what is real)." but again, it is not immediately apparent to our programmed worldly minds... it is only when we are truly in harmony with what is Real, True, that it is obvious we are not mortal, limited, physical, mental, emotional, but we are made of god. if the 10 commandments say, 'thou shalt not kill' and we send our men (like your dad and mine) to war and they kill and be killed, but we do not let them know the eternal in them that never dies, then yes, they will live in hell in their minds for the rest of their lives. that is the tyranny of religion. it lays trips on people without delivering the goods, the experience of god. when they have that, they then have options: do they want to listen to the chatter between their ears? the inner chatter that is beating them up, or beating others up, or or do they want to experience the ultimate pleasure -- the life that is living them, loving them, breathing them and that NEVER leaves them, EVER, but is ALWAYS there, accepting, approving, supporting... at least then they have a choice. > > And in the Gita, Krishna says He Himself is the founder of Real > Dharma, > which means "duties" which is really the closest word to religion > in the > common Hindu languages. So in Hindu religion, they see GOD as the > founder, > so there's no way you can say "Religion is BS" to BELIEVING Hindus. > Nowadays many are mixed, quite westernized, and they will agree > with you. > On this list we have those, but we also have older Brahmins, who > stick to > the old ways. das, someone has told you what krishna meant. would krishna agree with them? smiling and laughing and knowing that NO, krishna would say, "WAIT A MINUTE! THAT IS NOT WHAT I MEANT AT ALL!" god is god. religion is what people think/imagine about god. what is real, 'real dharma' has to be what is Real. what is REAL has no beginning and no end. duties have beginnings and endings. religions have beginnings and endings. REAL dharma, reality, truth, life, whatever you want to call it, is not the actions we go through; it is our REAL function, here and now, same as there and then, always, forever... it is nothing mental, emotional, physical... it is what simply IS. and what IS is beyond description. it is not a physical; it IS experiential... light, vibration, sound, etc. i am not talking out of ideas and theories and beliefs, das, but from my own experience. there is something very important to know, without which, life is hell; WITH which, all is well. "Those who themselves have seen the Truth can be thy teachers of wisdom... When wisdom is thine, arjuna, never more shalt thou be in confusion; for thou shalt see all things in thy heart and thou shalt see thy heart in me. and even if thou were the greatest of sinners, with the help of the bark of wisdom, thou shalt cross the sea of evil." > > Judgementalism is impossible to eradicate because it is a primary > force > within creation. It is referred to by some as the survival of the > fittest, > and in other more human circles as "classes". In fact, we are all > constantly judging everything, like whether to cross a street, or > whether to > talk to a person. We have to discriminate. This is the same as > judgeing. > I guess you mean final judgement upon a person for all time. Yeah, > that's a > bit too binding. But we are always judging each other in our > minds. To say > otherwise in my opinion is simply a lie. As long as Jupiter > exists, so will > Judgment. And Jupiter will always exist. there is discrimination, discernment and then there is judgment. judgment says 'you are unworthy.' judgment likes to think we are worthy and others are not, or we are not and others are. not so. no one is unworthy. judgment likes the idea of separation. "i am better (or worse) (or different) (or ?)" trying somehow to distinguish ourselves and justify separation. but we are not separate. we are not separate from god or from one another. the idea of separation is what creates all suffering. but it's not enough to believe we are or are not separation. we all deserve to know directly the oneness... this is what we are made of, how we were created. "With the same evenness of love they behold a brahmin who is learned and holy, or a cow, or an elephant, or a dog, and even the man who eats a dog." > > As for original sin, the Vedas have something similar. However, the > details > of this are in argument forever. But one thing is certain, we > suffer here, > we are not in control, and we don't know where or why we are here. > So this > very much smacks of a prison. The Vedas call it a prison. Prison is > punishment. And we were born here, kindof indicating that there > might have > been some mistake made in a previous life or place. Or, we NEED to > be here > to learn, like kids. > > Either way, there seems to be some primordial flaw because we are > imprisoned > and suffering. It makes sense as one theory. theory is not fact, is not certain. theory is belief, not knowing. i would rearrange your words a little here, like this: > we suffer here BECAUSE we don't know who we are or why we are here. i have heard this world is a hospital. this is the language that makes sense to me. we are here to heal. punishment does not work. prisons prove that. they just train people to be better criminals, by throwing all the criminals in one big pot, their naughtiness just rubs off on each other. they get ideas from each other about new and better ways to steal, lie, kill, etc. when there are many who are involved in a healing process, then they can all begin to rub off on each other in a good way. > i think, life is hard; life is hard. > i think, life is easy; life is easy. > i think, life is fun; life is fun. > we are always experiencing the effects of our thinking > and doing. but eternal hell is not our lot. nothing is > all that bad. > > Sorry Patricia, this is just over the top. You are really misled. > I think > you need a tour of real suffering, and we'll let you preach this stuff > there, and we'll take you to the hospital after people with real > suffering > mutilate you for your offensive optimism. das, 1) you have missed the point. i am not talking theory. i'm talking experience. i've been there and done that. big time. i've suffered. i've been depressed. i've felt helplessness, hopelessness, anguish, pain, guilt, anger, rage -- murderous rage, suicidal despair... i've been there and done that. 2) those words, 'Nothing is all that bad.' were aimed BY us AT our children playing in the sandbox. WE are those children, and GOD is the adult who is saying, "there is no reality in your sandbox, children." hate to be redundant but -- you know ... 'the eternal in man cannot kill, the eternal in man cannot be killed.' > > You are in some sort of happy space right now in life. For all I > know you > take some happy drug you're not telling us about. But one things > for sure, > you have forgotten that suffering exists, and is real. You quote > the Gita. > The Gita says there is Hell, and I can vouchsafe for that one, and > it says > there is immense suffering being dished out to the Jiva souls. i do not forget suffering. it spurs me to stay in a good place, to examine my thoughts and feelings and attitudes on a regular basis. if my energy dips, i know i am off track and i have to question, 'what am i doing to bring myself down right here and now? what am i believing about myself and the world and others that is not true, right now?' it's a matter of being a warrior and fighting the war between the ears. there is always a fight in the scriptures between light and dark and it is always a metaphor for our own, individual ongoing war. will we fall for tricks? will we believe the movie on the screen is real and will we cry our eyes out because something on the screen is sad? or will we look up at the beam of light that is coming from the projection booth and wake up and remember that we are safely in a soft cushy chair in the theater and all the action is taking place on the screen, when we wrote the script and shot the film and edited it to perfection, we knew it would be SO convincing that people would be squirming in their chairs, handkerchiefs soaking wet -- and now we are watching our own film and we have forgotten it is a film? LOL. we are in a movie, a disneyland, a play... and we are not victims of it, we are the author, the actor, the director, the producer, the choreographer. LOL AND we can pretend we do not know who we are for as long as we wish. amnesia. makes the game more fun... i guess. ? > If quoting Hinduism in any way, please remember that it fully > recognizes > suffering, as well as the martial rule of a King, and Capital > Punishment for > things like rape, housebreakin, and other things. Also, many Hindu > temples > will not let white people in, because they are "too low class". i have noticed there is judgment everywhere. even within and among religions. and what you speak of is what i am saying, religion is tyranny. breath alone is fair, just. > Similarly, Hinduism, the Bhag. Gita, Patricia, they are so far away > from > what you say, that to quote the Gita in one of your posts is ironic. hinduism is a religion, das. krishna was not selling religion. neither was jesus or buddha or lao tsu. > You and your philosophy would thoroughly offend any scholar/ > believer of > Hinduism. what i say offends anyone who is not looking for god. > This is why KN Rao, despite his personal faults, could not tolerate > coming > to America. It was all this New Age belief crap that he hated. i am not new age, das. i thought we got that straight. i am not talking from belief, but from experience. > What Patricia speaks is new, it's a summary type of belief created > by many > sincere minds over the last 5 decades mainly, it's a blend of > common sense, > obvious inferences, Hinduism, Christianity, Gnostic stuff, Kabalic > stuff, > Egyption Stuff, American Indian stuff, you name it, I call it > "Trail Mix" > after the food that is so popular amongst such persons since the > 70's (I'm > one of those people, just fell into a puddle of Orthodoxy in > another country > while my classmates all went on to various American dreams and > nightmares. wrong das. it is back to basics. you don't hear me, das. you are stuck in your own perception, your own point of view, and your point of view -- in this case -- is limited to intellect. i am talking about what all scriptures have always pointed to. it's what makes them scriptures. it's why the superstars come to earth. they are trying to wake us up and remind us of our origins. i am not at all who you think i am. and you don't know who i am because you don't know who you are. from your perspective, belief is belief. there's 'hindu belief' 'christian belief' 'new age belief' and so on. from the perspective of belief, belief is an end in itself, there is nothing to know. there is something radically beyond belief. you are coming from your intellect. there is something greater than the intellect and that is the power that allows the intellect to exist, the power without which nothing exists, that energy, power, is what the intellect runs on. without it, there is no intellect. > As one with a strong Jupiter, I have no intention of ever giving up > Judgement, or that is, discretion, the ability to know the best > options and > paths for myself and others. Giving up Judgement is just a string > of words. a very strong jupiter is non-judgmental. is forgiving, magnanimous, generous in spirit. i think that is what you are and what you have. > Seeing clearly? There is no standard to how to see. Clarity is > also a > relative concept. No condemning? What would you do with Hitler > after the > war if he wasn't killed, and he was handed over to you Patricia? what did bernadette do with you? she loved you unconditionally. that is what you deserve, that is what everyone deserves when they come back inside after playing in the sandbox. isn't that how you treat your own children? > Spirit is Breath, Spirit finds us all worthy apparently. > > This is only poetry. It has no real meaning. If you mean to say the > presence of life is PROOF of "worthiness", worthy for what? Love? worthy of life, das. you are being given life. breathed. if you doubt how beautiful that is, perhaps you will find out someday when you think it's your last breath. that one breath is precious. priceless. there is a man, thomas traherne, who wrote something like this... i'll paraphrase here... "what man values is those things that are most rare: diamonds, emeralds, rubies, gold. but what god values he has made most abundant: water, air, life..." it's a matter of perspective, das. of humility. of appreciation. gratitude. > What is love? My personal feeling is that LOVE Is when there is > LIKE and > TRUST mixed, and when you mix LONGEVITY OF RELATIONSHIP then Love > starts to > develop. It is a bond. It has nothing to do with sex, which can > be taking > place, or not, between people who love each other. love is a feeling you have in your heart. a baby is born in touch with it. it is why we love babies so much. they are so pure and innocent. love is what you are, das. it has nothing to do with anything outside you. others can inspire it, spark it, and that is good. circumstances can cause us to hold our breath and pay attention outward instead of inside, but, bottom line, it is what you are. people, places and things can remind us of it, or distract us from it, but nothing can ever change it or take it away permanently. it takes a bit of subtleness, a bit of introspection, quiet, humbleness, to tune in to it and feel it. but it's always there, quietly waiting for us to stop kicking and fussing and start enjoying it. peace of mind helps a lot. > I will not and cannot have a long relationship with certain types > of people > so I cannot love them. I can respect, appreciate, honor, avoid, > but not > love, the people I hate. If someone attacks someone I love, then I > kill > them, with hatred in my heart. Got a problem with that? your sandbox is ok with me. i don't care what you do or say or think. you are worthy of unconditional love. period. > The mumbo jumbo of words you rattle off so lengthy and freely so often > appears to me to be a lot like "religion"....alot of words with little > meaningful import. well, if you had more discretion you would be able to tell the difference between believing and regurgitation and when someone is telling you something that is important, something that can change your life and free you from your hell. ? > Sorry I'm on your case. Unfortunately I got really burnt out on > that kind > of talk from somebody else a couple years back, and I'm really not > into it. sorry you had to endure what you endured, das. but i think i am actually saying something new and different. i hope someday you'll be able to see me without the filters. > Plus, I know you are tuff beyond comparison. I know you can take > anything. > > I know, you can kick my ass. LOL. that is SOOOO funny. and true. even tho i weigh half what you do, it's true. i'm very tough and resilient and i have x-ray vision. i know what i know. and knowing is a very powerful thing. knowledge always trumps belief. love you, das! patricia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2006 Report Share Posted February 13, 2006 Yes indeed, sometimes life can provide so many suffering that we wonder whether we can take it all. Das, I am not an expert in Vedic Astrology (Jyotish), as a matter of fact, the first time I seriously started to study the subject was after a brief phone conversation roughly 2 years ago. So I am just a student who is very interested in the matter, and have faith in this science. In one of your introduction to Jyotish you wrote: "The planets cannot be cheated out of their effects by our tiny brains, and there is very little one can do to change what is inevitable. We shouldn't foster the mood of being an independent actor. Rather, in the proper understanding, we learn that we are to attempt to do all that we can with our strength to create good in our lives. In other words, you should try to survive, to overcome a disease, to overcome a problem. This way, the problems become lessons in our life, and giving up simply puts off the lesson. If a person gives up, then Divinity's next lesson is to teach that person the negative effects of giving up. We can never give up internally, our mood should always be, or rather, will always be, to survive and go on somehow. In a funny way, even suicide is an attempt to survive. The person simply thinks that leaving their body will be better than staying in the current situation. In other words, the living being constantly searches for the better situation. It is our permanent nature to seek higher pleasures than we are currently experiencing." I took your words very seriously, and they still remain in my mind today. Also, I can see what you meant by "Thought illness is one thing, but brain chemistry problems, are another". And even if it was just on the emotional level, we could still believe that transformation is impossible. At this point, I disagree with Patricia. Human behaviour is very complex, and for some, there is no “quick-fix” solution. Positive thoughts are definitely essential, but may not be the only ingredient for a remedy. I noticed that you don't use terms and knowledge from the Vedic scriptures anymore, but if you don't mind I borrow some of their expression. Well, as long as one is under the mode of material nature, whether it is on the gross or subtle plain, one can never say they are under control. As Patricia mentioned, the body is just a cover, but we mustn't forget that the cover inevitably influences the soul. Yes, you are very lonely, and your recovery necessary implies being with someone that truly loves you. If that loving person remained by your side no matter what the conditions were, and if he or she expressed words similar to Patricia’s, wouldn’t those words sound like music? I guess they would. Roy - Das Goravani valist Monday, February 13, 2006 2:35 AM A view less viewed Privately Patricia tells me I’m a brat and a drama king.This just makes me wanna say or resay a few things.Using the word “Drama” in this way, is in vogue here. It’s a pretty recent addition to the politically correct words of modern communication. It’s such a complex definition, I can’t really tell you what it means easily, so I’m going to skip that, hoping the audience already knows it.To me, it’s an insult to say to me I’m a drama driven person.But I know why she says it, about my writings here on this list, and she knows me in person too.But I just want to say, look, this is the truth, I’ve been a bit unique all my life, and yes, I wanted fame, which is an ego thing, but it got twisted and broken and changed early on, my ego, because I gave up rock stardom at 19 for Krishna, and really, did not go back, for real. When I got hit by my problems some years back, I pronounced my woes to this list, and did so repeatedly over time. I did this, one one level, because I had all the symptoms of Borderline Personality Disorder, and that’s one of the things they do. On another level, I was lonely, and you were all I had. I don’t make friends easily. It’s that unique thing again. Nobody can take me for very long, or me them, something.So I wrote to you, this list. The list has a few thorns from time to time, upon me, because of my openness and unique views.Now Patricia won’t lay off, and that’s fine. Got no problem with it on one level, but I’m just trying to stop it, on another. I’m trying right now to stop it.I’m not into this list so much as to like it really. The letters I get have never actually helped me. I always still hurt after writing to this list. I never got the cure or help I needed from those letters. They were stupid of me to do.Then there’s the aspect of the letters that they generate discussion and some people appreciate it and have written so here today as well.So sometimes I represent myself, what happened, tell my story, because that ball is rolling, and I’m following through. I feel a certain responsibility too, because somebody might some day have a family member, or it might help them understand a co-worker, relative, etc.I’ve gotten a lot better over time. I’m not at all as bad as I used to be. I still do get attacks, though, and sometimes they are bad enough to where I do the stupid thing and write it out to the list. That whole woman thing, it may seem weird to some people, for me to talk like that, but it’s been a real issue for me, and during attacks, things distort, take on totally wrong emotional proportions, and then you write about it that way, and people think you’re weird. Actually you could be accurately described as transcribing your bad acid trip to the world. That would be about the same meaning.I’ve gotten so much better. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better.I like attention, yeah, I was born an entertainer. I can sing and play guitar real well, and want to again, at gigs around town. I paint art on my car, dress up funny, and other things. Yeah, so what. I like it. That’s me. That’s what I do. I’ve always been that way, as a kid, and still am. So what?It’s not real gratifying to talk about pain and mental disease though. It’s not like I’m proud. I get a bad taste often from this list and this identity I have here, including the mental stuff. I’m not into that. I’m into doing stuff, making things, being creative and productive. But this happened, and serious stuff like this require serious handling, and truth, and people benefit from truth.So I went on and did, it has a large portion of philanthropy towards our shared understanding of ourselves. It does. Don’t try to make it seem like that’s not a part of me. It is a part of me.It’s also a part of me to be really honest, and provocative. I find it healthy for everyone, and many have told me they agree.So I’m not going to see myself as a drama king. Nor a rabble rouser.I am usually pretty darn sincere, honest, well meaning, and yeah, I like attention, but that doesn’t remove the first ones- sincerity, honesty, and well meaning.Because I am a lot better, and somewhat over this phase, I may not be so much the active needy one, as the one who can talk about that stuff in past tense. Also however, because it’s getting old, I may not as actively want to respond to the subject, having been there already, and done that before.I would like to say, I still believe in predeterminism as the truth, but I’ve come to realize clearly that people in general, including astrologers, tend to not like this idea, or they can’t see it, or something.I don’t know... I can just see this vision, where the whole creation starts as like a drop, and expands into many mothers giving birth to many babies, on many planets, that all come out of that drop, and because each kid starts in a mother who started in a mother all the way back, the development is just simply directly linked without break to the start, and then the end, is linked to the start, and I can just see, that all things are doing what they should, and yet witnesses yes, of course, inside those carbon units, will not know the script mabye, and having been patched into their unit fully, think they are thinking and moving it.So...I can see it’s a big preprogrammed school, and I’ve stuck to this without sway for years, and still do. Just wanna say that.Oh yeah, always to go with that, is this: Although I say the above, I also say, always, that the above is useless practically speaking. Pragamatically speaking, we have to live the day to day life in the world of choices and responsibility. We have to live the lie, in other words. We must. That’s the school. Maya is the school.So, it’s makes no difference, but I’m a stickler for what I believe to be the truth. That’s all.This is what I think is true: We are simultaneously, a part of a “one” which not contains us, but fully programs us. Simultaneously, we are choosing everything as if we are in control, and it feels a lot like we are in control, a lot of the time, around our body and our little lives.But don’t start thinking about Tsunami waves, death, diseases, or anything real, or your paradigm of control will crumble.Lastly, I have carefully studied Hinduism to be sure. I also studied Roman and Celtic thought, and some other things. I really don’t anymore like the fully mental approach which is more Eastern kindof, you know, a lot of talk about the falsity of the world, the kshetrajna, and like Patricia’s thing...thoughts create this, and that creates this, and blah blah blah logic about life....I’ve realized I have a choice in how I think, and the invasion of Indian thought that took place in my lifetime here in America which swallowed me whole, is not the only game in my mind anymore. I can think other things without thinking I’m going to hell (Hare Krishna early days mentality which I was taught).Nope, I can think other things. One counselor once gave me the phrase “You have to happy inside your own skin”So I’ve found things that work for me, and they are often very material things. Like, I guess I’m saying, these days, I find help in the physical, like say, Hot Chocolate. That’s a therapy. Simple, stupid, yeah, all that, but it works for me. Makes me happy, end of story. Nothing to talk about. Painting Celtic Art. It just works for me. End of Story.If Celtic stuff makes me think of past wars, well, then it does. I can’t throw away my comfort because it has bad things connected to it, it’s also my undeniable ancestry. If I apply some of these modern politically correct ways of Eastern thinking to myself at these times, everything goes haywire in my head. It’s like I have to choose- it’s either Celt or Hindu. I’ve been finding Celt. It comforts me. I am that, this is not a trip, this is a reality.I’m babbling this simply to show another way of thinking and speaking. I wish I could properly say what I’m trying to say. I guess I could say “It’s OK if we have completely different realities while coexisting here, so long as we don’t try to harm each other”. That’s my thought. I’m trying to share that I’ve found other things outside Hinduism. I used to only have Hinduism. Now I have other things. When finding these other things, I also found a reality where the flow of logic and philosophy don’t apply. I found a place, or a way of feeling and thinking, which I know to be somewhat ancestral for me, and which is different from the modern way of thinking, feeling, willing, etc., just as Gaelic is so different sounding from English.Guess I’m also saying, that I really don’t appreciate being belittled, made fun of, put down, or doubted, not trusted, here. But I think the main one is any kind of put down. Don’t really like that. I’m not playing and I’m not open to being “the stupid guy” in someone’s post either, not anymore at least.ThanksRick/Das das (AT) goravani (DOT) com Secure online ordering of Goravani Jyotish 2.5 and Jyotish Studio 3Eugene OR 97405 USA or (Please use email if at all possible) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 Das Goravani wrote: What is love? My personal feeling is that LOVE Is when there is LIKE and TRUST mixed, and when you mix LONGEVITY OF RELATIONSHIP then Love starts to develop. It is a bond. It has nothing to do with sex, which can be taking place, or not, between people who love each other. A few words on this most elusive subject that I keep close to the heart (from Jeddu Krishnamurti, "Freedom From the Known": "So when you ask what love is, you may be too frightened to see the answer. It may mean complete upheaval; it may break up the family; you may discover that you do not love your wife or husband or children--do you?--you may have to shatter the house you have built, you may never go back to the temple." "But if you still want to find out, you will see that fear is not love, dependence is not love, jealously is not love, responsibility and duty are not love, self pity is not love, the agony of not being loved is not love, love is not the opposite of hate anymore than humility is the opposite of vanity. So if you can eliminate all these, not by forcing them but by washing them away as the rain washes the dust of many days from a leaf, then perhaps you will come upon this strange flower which man always hungers after." "If you have not got love--not just in little drops but in abundance--if you are not filled with it--the world will go to disaster. You know intellectually that the unity of mankind is essential and that love is the only way, but who is going to teach you how to love? Will any authority, any method, any system, tell you how to love? If anyone tells you, it is not love. Can you say, 'I will practice love. I will sit down day after day and think about it. I will practice being kind and gentle and force myself to pay attention to others'? Do you mean to say that you can discipline yourself to love, exercise the will to love? When you exercise discipline and will to love, love goes out the window. By practicing some method or system of loving you become extraordinarily clever or more kindly or get into a state of non-violence, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with love." ....."But you don't know how to come to this extraordinary fount--so what do you do? If you don't know what to do, you do nothing, don't you? Absolutely nothing Then inwardly you are completely silent. Do you understand what that means? It means you are not seeking, not wanting, not pursuing; there is no center at all. Then there is love" Best, Steve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">See attachment … 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> Noel Gilbert Counselor Body, Mind & Soul LifeStyle Counselor "Arial Narrow";color:navy">Ayurveda - Herbalism Nutrition - Medical Astrology 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"> valist [valist] On Behalf Of Steven Stuckey Friday, February 17, 2006 12:44 AM valist Re: Re: A view less viewed Das Goravani wrote: What is love? My personal feeling is that LOVE Is when there is LIKE andTRUST mixed, and when you mix LONGEVITY OF RELATIONSHIP then Love starts todevelop. It is a bond. It has nothing to do with sex, which can be takingplace, or not, between people who love each other. A few words on this most elusive subject that I keep close to the heart (from Jeddu Krishnamurti, "Freedom From the Known": "So when you ask what love is, you may be too frightened to see the answer. It may mean complete upheaval; it may break up the family; you may discover that you do not love your wife or husband or children--do you?--you may have to shatter the house you have built, you may never go back to the temple." "But if you still want to find out, you will see that fear is not love, dependence is not love, jealously is not love, responsibility and duty are not love, self pity is not love, the agony of not being loved is not love, love is not the opposite of hate anymore than humility is the opposite of vanity. So if you can eliminate all these, not by forcing them but by washing them away as the rain washes the dust of many days from a leaf, then perhaps you will come upon this strange flower which man always hungers after." "If you have not got love--not just in little drops but in abundance--if you are not filled with it--the world will go to disaster. You know intellectually that the unity of mankind is essential and that love is the only way, but who is going to teach you how to love? Will any authority, any method, any system, tell you how to love? If anyone tells you, it is not love. Can you say, 'I will practice love. I will sit down day after day and think about it. I will practice being kind and gentle and force myself to pay attention to others'? Do you mean to say that you can discipline yourself to love, exercise the will to love? When you exercise discipline and will to love, love goes out the window. By practicing some method or system of loving you become extraordinarily clever or more kindly or get into a state of non-violence, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with love." ....."But you don't know how to come to this extraordinary fount--so what do you do? If you don't know what to do, you do nothing, don't you? Absolutely nothing Then inwardly you are completely silent. Do you understand what that means? It means you are not seeking, not wanting, not pursuing; there is no center at all. Then there is love" Best, Steve. Attachment: (application/msword) LOVE.doc [not stored] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 Dear Noel, Thank you for your post on Love & Meditation. Yes, I find those words very inspiring ..... Roy - Noel valist Friday, February 17, 2006 9:12 AM RE: Re: A view less viewed See attachment … Noel Gilbert Counselor Body, Mind & Soul LifeStyle Counselor Ayurveda - Herbalism Nutrition - Medical Astrology valist [valist] On Behalf Of Steven StuckeyFriday, February 17, 2006 12:44 AMvalistSubject: Re: Re: A view less viewed Das Goravani wrote: What is love? My personal feeling is that LOVE Is when there is LIKE andTRUST mixed, and when you mix LONGEVITY OF RELATIONSHIP then Love starts todevelop. It is a bond. It has nothing to do with sex, which can be takingplace, or not, between people who love each other. A few words on this most elusive subject that I keep close to the heart (from Jeddu Krishnamurti, "Freedom From the Known":"So when you ask what love is, you may be too frightened to see the answer. It may mean complete upheaval; it may break up the family; you may discover that you do not love your wife or husband or children--do you?--you may have to shatter the house you have built, you may never go back to the temple.""But if you still want to find out, you will see that fear is not love, dependence is not love, jealously is not love, responsibility and duty are not love, self pity is not love, the agony of not being loved is not love, love is not the opposite of hate anymore than humility is the opposite of vanity. So if you can eliminate all these, not by forcing them but by washing them away as the rain washes the dust of many days from a leaf, then perhaps you will come upon this strange flower which man always hungers after.""If you have not got love--not just in little drops but in abundance--if you are not filled with it--the world will go to disaster. You know intellectually that the unity of mankind is essential and that love is the only way, but who is going to teach you how to love? Will any authority, any method, any system, tell you how to love?If anyone tells you, it is not love. Can you say, 'I will practice love. I will sit down day after day and think about it. I will practice being kind and gentle and force myself to pay attention to others'? Do you mean to say that you can discipline yourself to love, exercise the will to love? When you exercise discipline and will to love, love goes out the window. By practicing some method or system of loving you become extraordinarily clever or more kindly or get into a state of non-violence, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with love."...."But you don't know how to come to this extraordinary fount--so what do you do? If you don't know what to do, you do nothing, don't you? Absolutely nothing Then inwardly you are completely silent. Do you understand what that means? It means you are not seeking, not wanting, not pursuing; there is no center at all.Then there is love"Best,Steve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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