Clarifications that amaze (for Das and all)

[Guest guest]

Namaste Das,

 

There's a story in the Shrimad Bhagavatam about a man who hated

Krishna so much with his whole being. At one gathering, the man

stood up to denounce Krishna who subsequently threw his sudarshan

disc to cut the man's head off. After the man's death, his soul went

to heaven anyway.

 

Moral of the story: in spite of his hatred, he constantly thought of

Krishna. Thus, he was saved.

 

Regards,

 

John R.

 

 

 

 

valist, Das Goravani <> wrote:

>

>

> Dear Friends, I mean, souls, on Earth, like me, on this list, like

me,

>

> I wish to clarify my reasons and basis for my religious related

discussions

> of late.

>

> At the time of Christ, the people¹s who would eventually be

Christians

> already had religions or groups they belonged to...and usually whole

> cultures and races they belonged to.

>

> Then the life of Jesus Christ happened. What really happened is

one thing.

> Then came the religion. Not one, but two. The original one of his

actual

> disciples, then the one of Rome, the one of Paul, which is the one

that

> never knew Jesus the person, and it¹s the one that went against

Jesus to go

> outside of the Jews, which the Apostles tended to not do.

>

> In ANY CASE, when these preachers eventually came North to the

lands of the

> Celts, and to Ireland, by then it was a religious machine. It was

capable of

> anything- casting doubt, causing ridicule towards other cultures and

> beliefs, and so on. This it did, openly, in Ireland.

>

> That is my point. No Budhist child in Vietnam is taught that he HAS

TO love

> Christianity to be saved, and little kids in African religions

aren¹t

> either. Hindu children are not taught that, neither are Muslims.

>

> When it comes to me exactly- am I alone in my shame of not honoring

the

> ³Divinity of Christianity², no, I am so not alone.

>

> There is a huge modern pagan movement going on. I get tons of love

mail on

> this subject too.

>

> It is not Christ that I disrespect, and my post did not attack

Christ. It is

> the machine of Christianity and so many things that happen in it¹s

name, and

> the falsity, to me, of it¹s theology before others, like before

Hinduism, or

> even Druidism, or even Science or even Atheism. I just don¹t see

Christian

> Theology or Jewish Theology as relevent anymore or to me, being as

I¹m not

> born into that tribe, I have no blood connection or emotional

connection to

> Judaeism, I¹m not a Jew, and therefore why did they cut the end of

my penis

> off at birth? Why do you say I should have SHAME for my feelings

about

> Christianity. They had converted my ancestors!

>

> That is so Catholic, or perhaps Christian, (I know Catholic

personally), to

> CAST SHAME.

>

> SHAME ON YOU my mother used to always say. My IRISH CATHOLIC

mother.

>

> OK, now onto reality: (away from Christianity that is)

>

> My mother is a pure Irish woman (or was). That means she is of a

people

> known as Celts and they had a religion, a culture, courts, kings,

lands,

> laws, everything, before Christ and before Paul and before Patrick,

even

> before Rome and Greece. Okay? So we¹re talking about a full on

real

> people. In fact, there was a time that they strongly tormented

England, and

> there was a time, all pre Christian, when they were seen as a highly

> cultured, highly skilled people, with extensive trading, extensive

> intelligencia, everything. Scots come primarily from Ireland, or

originally,

> and they are too a great race and culture before Christ, as were

ALL in

> Europe. All stood on their own and didn¹t need to be ³converted² to

> anything.

>

> In the slaughter (meat) industry they call it ³converting² the

animal.

>

> So too with religions. You ³convert² the animal into your dogma

repeater and

> taxpayer. Then they are saved.

>

> So I am one of those modern pagans who sees what happened for what

it is. It

> was an ego conquest generally, by religious leaders, of whom I¹ve

known

> many, and I have come to the complete conclusion that they are

totally

> normal men doing a particular culturally settled or based job, that

is of

> being the priest, or druid, or shaman, or rabbi, brahmin, pandit,

panda,

> etc...

>

> It¹s called Priestcraft, and it¹s a job. Some have the evangelical

calling,

> I know I did. Paul of Tarsus had it bigtime, and it was he who

really

> caused the spread to Europe, to my ancestors ultimately.

>

> What kind of beauty would it be, if Ireland was still just old

Ireland, and

> was respected as such, non converted, still Celtic, and some way

grown up in

> it¹s own modern version of itself, but not Christian, rather,

allowed to be

> what it is, or what it was, just as we for some reason think that

the Jews

> should be allowed to have their ancient, different, culture. We

believe the

> American Indians have the right, and the East Indians, that we so

follow on

> this list, and in our lives of Yoga and Bhakti and Meditation

etc....but

> what of the Germans and Irish? Do they NOT get this allowance. NO

ancient

> culture rememberance for them? Is that how it goes?

>

> When you remember your ancient culture as a white person, one of

the first

> things you realize is that you:

>

> 1. Hate Rome. This is immediate and total.

> 2. Realize Christianity is just another Roman oppression

> 3. Realize that you and nature are your religion

> 4. Astrology fits right in, as does reincarnation

> 5. After reading, you find out they all believed that way then

> 6. That it was much like Hinduism, and very extent

> 7. And destroyed by Rome

> 8. Then replaced by Christianity

> 9. Who teaches and oppresses against white religions that came

before

> 10. Moreso than against other cultures, like a particular vendetta

> 11. And that this all disapears as soon as you learn a little bit

> 12. And you certainly don¹t care, don¹t feel shame, etc

>

> I am trying to say that I am one of many who have found that

Christianity

> does not meet our needs, does not answer our questions, does not

satisfy our

> minds.

>

> And you have proven another point by your writing to me as you did,

that

> Christianity creates autocratic bigotry for itself and therefore

for it¹s

> followers or parrots. You can write to me and tell me to be shamed

because

> I think Patrick was wrong in his trying to convert Ireland. You

think,

> because of your allegiance to Christ, that you can say to me that I

should

> shut up and feel shame and insinuate that I will get more suffering

because

> of vocalizing against Christ (which I didn¹t particular do, but I

know what

> you mean, you mean against Christianity ( which is not the religion

of

> Christ by my studying, but we won¹t go there right now).

>

> So you prove a point- that Christians are intolerant of opposition.

This was

> true at the outset. Rome was shocked to find this new cult preached

> something new and dangerous- that their way was the only way. Other

> religions had tolerance of other religions built in before then.

It was

> understood in Rome itself that there are many religions, and many

Gods. But

> then came Christianity, which tried to overthrow that conception,

and of

> course, if we look around, we see they were wildly successful.

>

> But it is not a law that I must be a sheep, one of his sheep, in

his flock.

> There is no law to that end, and I am not alone in having open eyes

and

> seeing that I have a choice. Then too it is not a great stretch,

and

> therefore I am not alone, in seeing that we really don¹t know the

answers to

> the big questions. When we try to answer them with religion we end

up here-

> in these dumb discussions about who¹s conjecture and ³faith² is

right and

> who is dammed, or ³wrong² (gasps of fear are heard of falling into

firy

> pits, oh no!)

>

> Rather, there is a law in America at least, that protects my right

to not

> feel shame when I don¹t believe that Jesus the Jew of 2000 years

ago is my

> savior, or when I don¹t care if he was divine or not, or when I

don¹t

> believe, or don¹t care if I believe, if divine really exists as a

truth for

> anything in this world.

>

> Truly when your mind is done with any conception, when you died to

that, as

> I guess I have, and you just see things as they are, you see that

religion

> is a wishful thinking of choice, an arbitrary acceptance of things

of the

> culture of the people you are born amongst, a collection of relics

of past

> faiths and beliefs which are rather arbitrary ultimately, and not

at all

> necessarily proveable truths in any way or form. I mean, you

cannot prove

> your God to me, you cannot even prove Jesus to me. History is such

and I

> know the books well. Nobody knows Mohamed had those visions, and

nobody

> knows if blah blah blah.... It¹s always nobody knows about all of

it.

>

> We just don¹t know for sure why we¹re here etc. and that is now OK

with me.

>

> All the dogma about karma and sin and such, that grows up in

religion, I am

> freed from that too, because I just see it as a sale by some priest

to his

> people then to me. Prabhupada chose to have all those beliefs, so

much so

> he came here and converted us, so then we too had those intense

beliefs. I

> no longer have those beliefs. It¹s an option. I don¹t have to

.

> Fortunately by ancient German law and custom, I am a free man. I

can have

> my own house and have my family and rights respected, and this is

the law of

> America too- because it came to Britain then to America and got

codified.

> Freedom. I don¹t have to . And I don¹t.

>

> I am now proud of just what I am. I am a man, white, German and

Irish,

> entitled by blood to those cultures and customs, and entitled by

invitation

> to visit my friends of numerous colors all over the world who too

are just

> in their ancient cultures by their birth right, doing their thing,

and

> perfectly willing to not only respect me, but actually enjoy my

company.

>

> Now, these persons are never total Christians, because like from

the very

> beginning, those folks are EXCLUSIVIST and think that they are

right, and

> that all should convert. They still feel that way if they are

really of

> that line. They are not alone. Some other cults and religions are

like

> that. I¹m not into any of those, and I cannot hang with those kind

of

> people because their banter about how I should be in their religion

BUGS ME.

> It¹s not that they convince me. They just annoy me with their

assumptions

> about their rights to disrespect me so. THEY ARE DISRESPECTING ME

and

> anyone else they do that to.

>

> Many Celts fought the ³new religion² for a very long time. I feel

joy in

> knowing that my people fought Rome and fought the Christian monks,

as best

> they could. But alas, destiny and the universe have their plans,

greater

> than our own, that span great times, greater than one of our lives,

and we

> cannot know this whole picture easily or ever, and so we go,

onwards,

> without knowing, but doing our part as it is made by the whole.

Simple.

>

> I am not against Jews. I am not against Christians, but they are

against me.

> I find their religious ceremonies uninteresting, but that¹s true of

other

> religions, all religions I think, for me. So no big deal. I don¹t

like

> their views towards me and others. Like I said, that exclusivity

has always

> bothered others since Christians appeared. It¹s scary. They always

sound

> like they are going to swallow other peoples, and they have, as

have some

> others. That¹s always scary.

>

> I realized I am not religious to any religion. I realized that

truly all¹s

> we know is that we are in one big divine. So to me God is the one,

the big,

> the divine, which is all that is, all that we see, ourselves

included, etc.

> I see astrology works and that backs this idea...it¹s all one, it¹s

on it¹s

> own path and trip, and we know not what that is, or who is behind

it if

> there is a personal aspect to the divine, a God, or Gods....we

really don¹t

> know. I have to admit that. We believe, but don¹t KNOW FOR SURE.

>

> So I believe in what is for sure, the one whole divine that is all

that is.

> It¹s here, now, too, only and fully. I don¹t worship beautiful

deities made

> to represent the divine, because we don¹t know for sure they are

real

> people, and I feel silly loving a stature of a dream or ³belief

system² or

> ³religion². So I don¹t go for personalizing Gods. Nature and

people are

> enough Divine as they are.

>

> I just see converting and teaching, taxing and punishing, as

control trips

> brought by invaders, political and religious. Patrick was one, so

I covered

> it on his day of honor. Yes, I am outside the norm by blasting a

³Saint² on

> his holy day. Of course I know that. I am honored to be outside

the norm

> when the norm is intolerance and oppression, and glorifying that in

history

> with Sainthood and Holy Days for the worst of them.

>

> I am so not alone. Countless pagan warriors and knights of honor

are all

> about me in spiritual bodies, bloodied, but not beaten, forgotten

by most,

> but not all, my people by blood and name, not too long ago, who

fought to

> keep Rome and Christianity out of our native lands, because both

were

> invaders. What about them? They had names and families, values,

family

> values, and customs, like Baptisms into faiths, and things like Holy

> Communion with the Mercy, Prasad, Eucharist, of their Beloved Gods

and

> Deities. They had Calendars, Brahmins, Priests and altars of

worship. They

> were noble, and had stories and cultures and customs, got married,

and

> buried with honor, believed in the herafter, sent goods in burial

with the

> person to the next life...

>

> Yet Rome, ³St² Paul and others disrespected all of this and took it

over,

> overthrew it with prejudice, and replaced it. Since this

overthrowing was

> not completed in India, we have the ancient goods still, to our

great

> benefit. What if that were true of other places too?

>

> I am simply one of the children of my ancestors. I have every right

by

> birth, as birth is respected in ancient times and in modern

America, to the

> beliefs of my ancestors, one of which is that we are not

Christians, and we

> can oppose and even fight invaders to our lands, like Romans and

Christian

> monks who intend to destroy our cultures, disrepect our holy places,

> disrespect our elders, and toss to the garbage our entire reality,

social

> structure, belief system, etc. Do we not have that right, dear

friend? Are

> we now in a Totalitarian Christian State?

>

> The fact that I can see this way in modern times is a testimony to

my

> brainpower and my simple love of reading real history books. My

guts and

> writing ability are just part of my plan I guess. Otherwise I¹m

just another

> pagan Celtic/Germanic dude, basic thinking/warrior type. Not

special.

>

> So I guess I could summarize by putting Christians and the average

white

> people in the West who haven¹t already heard about it on notice

that many

> pagan hippie types in progressive cities like Eugene are quite

comfortable

> now seeing Christ as a kind of ³Righteousness Stamp² that is being

used by

> the ³White Right² such as Republicans in American and Protestants in

> particular too against other cultures. You even get the feeling

from blonde

> SUV christians that democrats are somehow ³not saved².

>

> Like George Bush exclaiming just post 9/11 that ³We¹re a GOOD

people². Well

> George, so are Iraqis. OK? They just are, because, they exist.

Their

> history made them the way they are, and you know, they have exactly

the

> rights that you have. Now that¹s a spiritual view. Not George¹s

view.

>

> God bless (WHOEVER YOU WANT, GOD).

>

> Not necessarily America.

>

> Irreverence towards Christianity is the norm amongst true scholars

and

> thinkers of our times. Chritianity is outdated, and outgunned by

science.

> But it shouldn¹t feel bad. It¹s joined in this position by most

religions.

> These are old pre-science superstitions.

>

> This is a normal view these days. I¹m surprised that the person

who blasted

> me about my original Patrick posting isn¹t more aware of this

view. Here in

> progressive Eugene it¹s so common, perhaps I took it for granted

that others

> had heard this ³Gospel² or ³Good News².

>

> If all this makes me crazy, well, it will have to get in line.

>

> And to you dear reader:

>

> Peace, anykind, not just ³Christs Peace² and Neither ³Pax Romana²,

>

> Did I say it? Did I do good ? (Paws up, puppy eyes, wagging

tail...)

>

> Out on a written limb, I remain,

>

> Your not humble friend,

>

> Richard of the MacAoidh, MacCrinion and Vuerst, all good Pagan

Families.

>

Reeshart Mach Aeoidh

> Richard MacKayoedh

> aka Das Goravani

>

>

>

>

> Secure online ordering of

> Goravani Jyotish 2.5 and Jyotish Studio 3 (JS3)

> For Hindu Astrology Software and Lessons (Jyotish)

>

>

>

> For Original Celtic Art Paintings

> http://www.goravani.com/art.html

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> or

> Please use email if at all possible ­ I usually cannot answer the

phone

>

[Guest guest]

john, to me, the point of the story is that

nothing but heaven exists.

we are just entertaining ourselves with

our ideas of 'hell.'

heaven is inevitable.

we might as well enjoy it here too.

love, patricia

 

 

On Mar 18, 2006, at 11:26 AM, John wrote:

 

> There's a story in the Shrimad Bhagavatam about a man who hated

> Krishna so much with his whole being. At one gathering, the man

> stood up to denounce Krishna who subsequently threw his sudarshan

> disc to cut the man's head off. After the man's death, his soul went

> to heaven anyway.

>

> Moral of the story: in spite of his hatred, he constantly thought of

> Krishna. Thus, he was saved.

 

Patricia Robinett

patricia

 

"All time not spent on love is wasted." - Torquato Tasso

[Guest guest]

Hello Das & All,

 

One could be excused for thinking they'd come across some "New Age"

group? Certainly the sentiments expressed recently have little to do

with Jyotish, but perhaps this is just a passing mood.

 

I find it necessary to point out that those who say they don't

believe in karma (as dispensed by the Grahas) or in the state after

death, are certainly not in accord with the teachings of Vedic

astrology.

 

BPHS Ch.84:

"26-27. The Grah, who is the cause of adverse effects to a person at

any time, should be handled by worship and appeasing (of the

benevolent ones), because Brahma has blessed the Grahas with the boon

"Do good to the persons, who worship you". And the development and

progress and downfall of the people and the creation and destruction

of the universe are all under the administration and authority of the

Grahas. Therefore they are most venerable."

 

Ch. 44:

"43-45. ASCENT AFTER DEATH:

According to the following planets in the 12th, 7th, 6th, or the 8th,

the native will attain such worlds after death: Jupiter - heaven, the

Moon or Venus - the world of Manes, Mars/Sun -earth (i.e. rebirth),

Mercury/Saturn - hell. Should the said houses be not occupied, the

native will go to the world as indicated by stronger of the decanate

lords related to the 6th and the 8th. The relative planet's

exaltation etc. will denote the high, medium, and low status the

native will obtain in the said world."

 

Those who disagree with the basic teachings of Jyotish have no

business studying it. As Parashara states in Ch.3:

"Only good will follow the teaching of this science to the students

who are peacefully disposed, who honour the preceptors (and elders)

who speak only truth and who are God-fearing. Woeful for ever

doubtlessly will it be to impart knowledge of this science to an

unwilling student, to a heterodox, and to a crafty person."

 

[PS: no need to send your arguments on to me - I'm simply conveying

Parashara's teachings...]

 

BTW a true Vedic astrologer has respect for all religions as he

understands totally the implications of planets influencing 9th

house. For Das, BTW, the heavy influence of F/M Saturn on both 9th

lord and 9th house is obvious in his writings. This is the way it is

for Das and he's obviously okay with that (so he says). But I do

think he should be more respectful to those who do honour religion,

religious teachers, gurus etc.. Intolerance is used as an argument

(only) when accusing others who object to his intolerance...bigotry,

it seems, has many disguises!??

 

In response to John and Patricia's post I offer the following story

(in part and from memory) as narrated to me by ShantiMayi:

 

"Krishna had two Valets, one was Jay, the other Vijay. Vijay, a very

high soul, very loving, very honest, was greatly loved by Krishna.

When Vijay died he went to Brahma loka (as he'd been told he would)

and, in his eagerness to see Brahma, he tripped and fell over a

little Ashwini Kumara who cursed him to a thousand more lives.

Devastated, Vijay pleaded with Brahma to lift the curse.

Unfortunately Brahma could not lift the curse completely (karma is

karma and must be fulfilled) so he told Vijay he would give him a

choice.

 

1) You can live 10 lives as a great saint; everyone will love you;

you will give everyone back to themselves; speak only of God; your

whole life will be cared for so sweetly; always the flowers will

come; always the nectar will come into the people you are with. Your

death will be a great honour. OR...

 

2) You can live 3 lives as a demon. No one will like you; you'll live

a miserable life, everyone will hate you, and you will die a violent

death.

 

Vijay said, "Lord, I'll take 3 lives as a demon - it's much quicker

getting home." Immediately Vijay was placed into the womb of

Krishna's cousin (I think, or maybe aunt?). As the story was told to

me he (Sisupala) was born with three eyes and four arms. Brahma told

Sisupala's mother that as soon as the child was placed on the lap of

the one who would kill him, one eye would recede, two arms would

recede, and the child would be normal. And, of course, as soon as he

was placed on Krishna's lap, this is what happened.

 

Sisupala's mother was shocked and said "Krishna, you're going to kill

my son!", Krishna replied that he would take a million insults from

her son. He didn't however say that he would not kill Sisupala.

 

Sisupala grew up hating Krishna (always hurling insults at him). Then

one final day, after hurling more insults, Sisupala challenged

Krishna to a duel...the time had come! As Krishna took aim with his

chakra he looked at Sisupala with all the love in his heart because

he knew it was his beloved Vijay. Immediately the chakra struck, the

golden form of Vijay knelt at Krishna's feet and whispered, "Thank

you Krishna, one life finished, so much closer to home."

 

To me, the crux of this story is that we don't (really) know another

person. We may think we know by looking at their karma in this

life...but what do we truly know about the people we're looking at

and (often) judging. It's a beautiful story!

 

Best Wishes,

Mrs. Wendy

http://JyotishVidya.com

______________________________

valist, Patricia Robinett <patricia

wrote:

 

john, to me, the point of the story is that

nothing but heaven exists.

we are just entertaining ourselves with

our ideas of 'hell.'

heaven is inevitable.

we might as well enjoy it here too.

love, patricia

 

 

On Mar 18, 2006, at 11:26 AM, John wrote:

 

There's a story in the Shrimad Bhagavatam about a man who hated

Krishna so much with his whole being. At one gathering, the man

stood up to denounce Krishna who subsequently threw his sudarshan

disc to cut the man's head off. After the man's death, his soul went

to heaven anyway.

 

Moral of the story: in spite of his hatred, he constantly thought of

Krishna. Thus, he was saved.

[Guest guest]

I no longer see BPHS as anything other than a book. And what Brahmins or

Druids say to scare the people I also don't care for. Sure, stupid people

should leave important, delicate, intellectual matters for those with say,

Jupiter in the 9th in it's own sign as final dispositor of all planets in

the chart, but hey, those folks don't ever do what they're told, so there

again, just having an old book talking is useless.

 

Jyotish is Jyotish. It doesn't belong to anybody, nor to any country, nor

to any religion, and neither to the Brahmins, whatever the heck they are.

 

Using stories about Krishna (who we are not sure even existed) and using

quotes from Hindu books to make me seem like a bad guy actually makes me

laugh. Besides, I'm NOT studying Jyotish. I already know as much as I care

to. I'm also not a practicing astrologer. What I am, is a programmer of

astrology software, and in that one just follows the rules and pleases the

customers, so, it's not really "Holy" or "Spiritual". It's pretty mundane,

though I do try to dress mine up with BEAUTY as I think that Souls and Their

Charts deserve that.

 

The heavy handed Hindu anger you expressed does not come from my offenses.

It comes from within you. I am at peace, right now. I do suffer mood

swings, that part is true.

 

In conclusion, Wendy, you're a trip, and I am not angry at you for acting

like I might have about 10 years ago. Even if I never was a Hindu fanatic

as your post makes you sound, still, I am not angry at you. I am convinced

that what will be, will be, try as we might to exercise free will. I am

also convinced that I am not bad or wrong in being irreligious, that is to

say, no longer interested in dogma of religions.

 

Well, take care, and be peaceful.

 

 

Reeshart Mach Aeoidh

Richard MacKayoedh

aka Das Goravani

 

 

 

 

Secure online ordering of

Goravani Jyotish 2.5 and Jyotish Studio 3 (JS3)

For Hindu Astrology Software and Lessons (Jyotish)

 

 

 

For Original Celtic Art Paintings

http://www.goravani.com/art.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

or

Please use email if at all possible ­ I usually cannot answer the phone

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

If you are not a practicing astrologer, why are u participating in

this group? The basis of any spiritual art / study is reverence for,

or faith in it.

 

regards

arun

[Guest guest]

are we having a use of language problem?

 

arun, in the US, 'a practicing astrologer'

is different than a 'practicing'

jew or christian or hindu, etc.

you can use the word 'practicing' as in

'practicing a religion' but not when it

comes to astrology. astrology, in the

US is not a religion.

 

in the US, 'a practicing astrologer'

indicates someone who has hung

out a shingle, sees clients and

is paid for doing charts, like a

practicing physician or accountant.

an astrology practice is a business.

 

richard's work is computer programming.

he has learned a great deal about

astrology by doing that, but he does

not see clients for a living (livelihood).

i hope that helps.

love, patricia

 

On Mar 19, 2006, at 5:25 PM, arun wrote:

 

> If you are not a practicing astrologer, why are u participating in

> this group? The basis of any spiritual art / study is reverence for,

> or faith in it.

 

Patricia Robinett

patricia

 

"All time not spent on love is wasted." - Torquato Tasso

[Guest guest]

Namaste Wendy,

 

We appreciate this story. Thanks.

 

Regards,

 

John R.

 

 

 

valist, "Wendy Vasicek" <jyotish wrote:

>

> Hello Das & All,

>

> One could be excused for thinking they'd come across some "New Age"

> group? Certainly the sentiments expressed recently have little to do

> with Jyotish, but perhaps this is just a passing mood.

>

> I find it necessary to point out that those who say they don't

> believe in karma (as dispensed by the Grahas) or in the state after

> death, are certainly not in accord with the teachings of Vedic

> astrology.

>

> BPHS Ch.84:

> "26-27. The Grah, who is the cause of adverse effects to a person at

> any time, should be handled by worship and appeasing (of the

> benevolent ones), because Brahma has blessed the Grahas with the

boon

> "Do good to the persons, who worship you". And the development and

> progress and downfall of the people and the creation and destruction

> of the universe are all under the administration and authority of

the

> Grahas. Therefore they are most venerable."

>

> Ch. 44:

> "43-45. ASCENT AFTER DEATH:

> According to the following planets in the 12th, 7th, 6th, or the

8th,

> the native will attain such worlds after death: Jupiter - heaven,

the

> Moon or Venus - the world of Manes, Mars/Sun -earth (i.e. rebirth),

> Mercury/Saturn - hell. Should the said houses be not occupied, the

> native will go to the world as indicated by stronger of the decanate

> lords related to the 6th and the 8th. The relative planet's

> exaltation etc. will denote the high, medium, and low status the

> native will obtain in the said world."

>

> Those who disagree with the basic teachings of Jyotish have no

> business studying it. As Parashara states in Ch.3:

> "Only good will follow the teaching of this science to the students

> who are peacefully disposed, who honour the preceptors (and elders)

> who speak only truth and who are God-fearing. Woeful for ever

> doubtlessly will it be to impart knowledge of this science to an

> unwilling student, to a heterodox, and to a crafty person."

>

> [PS: no need to send your arguments on to me - I'm simply conveying

> Parashara's teachings...]

>

> BTW a true Vedic astrologer has respect for all religions as he

> understands totally the implications of planets influencing 9th

> house. For Das, BTW, the heavy influence of F/M Saturn on both 9th

> lord and 9th house is obvious in his writings. This is the way it is

> for Das and he's obviously okay with that (so he says). But I do

> think he should be more respectful to those who do honour religion,

> religious teachers, gurus etc.. Intolerance is used as an argument

> (only) when accusing others who object to his

intolerance...bigotry,

> it seems, has many disguises!??

>

> In response to John and Patricia's post I offer the following story

> (in part and from memory) as narrated to me by ShantiMayi:

>

> "Krishna had two Valets, one was Jay, the other Vijay. Vijay, a very

> high soul, very loving, very honest, was greatly loved by Krishna.

> When Vijay died he went to Brahma loka (as he'd been told he would)

> and, in his eagerness to see Brahma, he tripped and fell over a

> little Ashwini Kumara who cursed him to a thousand more lives.

> Devastated, Vijay pleaded with Brahma to lift the curse.

> Unfortunately Brahma could not lift the curse completely (karma is

> karma and must be fulfilled) so he told Vijay he would give him a

> choice.

>

> 1) You can live 10 lives as a great saint; everyone will love you;

> you will give everyone back to themselves; speak only of God; your

> whole life will be cared for so sweetly; always the flowers will

> come; always the nectar will come into the people you are with. Your

> death will be a great honour. OR...

>

> 2) You can live 3 lives as a demon. No one will like you; you'll

live

> a miserable life, everyone will hate you, and you will die a violent

> death.

>

> Vijay said, "Lord, I'll take 3 lives as a demon - it's much quicker

> getting home." Immediately Vijay was placed into the womb of

> Krishna's cousin (I think, or maybe aunt?). As the story was told to

> me he (Sisupala) was born with three eyes and four arms. Brahma told

> Sisupala's mother that as soon as the child was placed on the lap of

> the one who would kill him, one eye would recede, two arms would

> recede, and the child would be normal. And, of course, as soon as he

> was placed on Krishna's lap, this is what happened.

>

> Sisupala's mother was shocked and said "Krishna, you're going to

kill

> my son!", Krishna replied that he would take a million insults from

> her son. He didn't however say that he would not kill Sisupala.

>

> Sisupala grew up hating Krishna (always hurling insults at him).

Then

> one final day, after hurling more insults, Sisupala challenged

> Krishna to a duel...the time had come! As Krishna took aim with his

> chakra he looked at Sisupala with all the love in his heart because

> he knew it was his beloved Vijay. Immediately the chakra struck, the

> golden form of Vijay knelt at Krishna's feet and whispered, "Thank

> you Krishna, one life finished, so much closer to home."

>

> To me, the crux of this story is that we don't (really) know another

> person. We may think we know by looking at their karma in this

> life...but what do we truly know about the people we're looking at

> and (often) judging. It's a beautiful story!

>

> Best Wishes,

> Mrs. Wendy

> http://JyotishVidya.com

> ______________________________

> valist, Patricia Robinett <patricia@>

> wrote:

>

> john, to me, the point of the story is that

> nothing but heaven exists.

> we are just entertaining ourselves with

> our ideas of 'hell.'

> heaven is inevitable.

> we might as well enjoy it here too.

>

> love, patricia

>

>

> On Mar 18, 2006, at 11:26 AM, John wrote:

>

> There's a story in the Shrimad Bhagavatam about a man who hated

> Krishna so much with his whole being. At one gathering, the man

> stood up to denounce Krishna who subsequently threw his sudarshan

> disc to cut the man's head off. After the man's death, his soul

went

> to heaven anyway.

>

> Moral of the story: in spite of his hatred, he constantly thought

of

> Krishna. Thus, he was saved.

>

[Guest guest]

Dear John,

 

Let me add some bits to the story.

 

Jay and Vijay were the dwarpaals or the gatekeepers of vaikunth,

Vishnu's abode. Krishna, as the mythology goes, was an avatar of Vishnu, the

preserver.

 

Vijay was born as Shishupal, to Krishna's aunt. When Shishupal's extra

limbs fell off when he was placed on Krishna's lap, Shishupal's mother took a

promise from Krishna to forgive Shishupal's hundred follies.

 

Shishupal was groomed and educated by Jarasandh, the king of Magadh,

present state of Bihar in India. Jarasandh was an enemy of Krishna because

Krishna had killed his son-in-law Kamsa.

 

So, in company of Jarasandh, Shishupal learnt nothing but hatred for

Krishna. Krishna had also eloped with Rukmini, whose marriage had been fixed

with Shishupal by her brother and Shishupal's friend, Rukmi.

 

So, he had one more reason to hate Krishna.

 

When Draupadi's swayamvar was organised, and Arjun, in disguise of a

Brahmin, had won her hand after passing a test of marksmanship, Shishupal and

others protested. Krishna tried to pacify them. All others retreated but

Shishupal kept on heaping abuses on Krishna.

 

Krishna listened patiently, to everyone's surprise, but as soon as

Shisupal had uttered one hundred and one abuses, Krishna cut off his head with

his Chakra.

 

 

There is a very interesting story about Jarasandh too.

 

He was born dead and his body was in two equal parts, one left and one

right half. His mother threw these parts in the woods. A demoness named Jara

saw these parts and, using her occult powers, joined them. Then she also

infused life in this dead infant. She then handed over the infant to its

parents who named it Jarasandha after the demoness. 'Sandh' is derived from

sanskrit 'sandhi' which means joint. So, Jarasandh means the one who was

"joined by Jara".

 

He grew up to be a mighty king and ruled over Magadha, the biggest and

mightiest kingdom of ancient India. He was a staunch enemy of Krishna and

Pandavas. Almost invincible, he was a foe who could have hindered victory of

Pandavas over Kauravas.

 

Krishna formulated a plan to eliminate Jarasandh. He knew that this king

of Magadha was a able and proud wrestler. Krishna, Bheem (the mightiest man on

earth and second Pandav brother) and Arjun (the third Pandav) went to Magadh

disguised as Brahmins. There Bheem challenged Jarasandh to a wrestling duel.

 

Jarasandh, though he had recognised all three, accepted the challenge.

Both mighty wrestlers were soon wrestling in the arena. Bheem, even though

being more powerfull than Jarasandh, was not finding it easy to kill him.

Jarasnadhs had mystical supernatural powers gifted to him by Jara, the

demoness.

 

Then, Krishna took a blade of grass in his fingers and tore it into half

longitudinaly, indicating to Bheem the way to kill Jarasandha. Bheem threw his

enemy on the ground, and putting one foot on Jarasandh's one leg and pulling

the other with leg with hands tore his body into two halves. He then threw left

half to left and right half to right.

 

But, Jara's magic was not to be so easily vanquished. The two halves

joined again and Jarasandh was fighting with more vigour. Then Krishna again

tore a blade of grass in two halves, but threw the left half on right and right

half on left. Bheem got the hint and again tore Jarasandh into two, and threw

the halves on oppisite sides. When the two halves tried to join each other,

they could not and Jarasandh was finally dead.

 

The Mahabharat is full of such interesting stories. And it is only one

of the many mythological epics popular in India.

 

 

Regards,

 

Ashutosh

 

 

-

John

valist

Monday, 20 March, 2006 11:09

Re: Clarifications that amaze (for Das and all)

Namaste Wendy,We appreciate this story. Thanks.Regards,John R.--- In

valist, "Wendy Vasicek" <jyotish wrote:>> Hello Das &

All,> > One could be excused for thinking they'd come across some "New Age">

group? Certainly the sentiments expressed recently have little to do> with

Jyotish, but perhaps this is just a passing mood.> > I find it necessary to

point out that those who say they don't> believe in karma (as dispensed by the

Grahas) or in the state after> death, are certainly not in accord with the

teachings of Vedic> astrology.> > BPHS Ch.84:> "26-27. The Grah, who is the

cause of adverse effects to a person at> any time, should be handled by worship

and appeasing (of the> benevolent ones), because Brahma has blessed the Grahas

with the boon> "Do good to the persons, who worship you". And the development

and> progress and downfall of the people and the creation and destruction> of

the universe are all under the administration and authority of the> Grahas.

Therefore they are most venerable."> > Ch. 44:> "43-45. ASCENT AFTER DEATH:>

According to the following planets in the 12th, 7th, 6th, or the 8th,> the

native will attain such worlds after death: Jupiter - heaven, the> Moon or

Venus - the world of Manes, Mars/Sun -earth (i.e. rebirth),> Mercury/Saturn -

hell. Should the said houses be not occupied, the> native will go to the world

as indicated by stronger of the decanate> lords related to the 6th and the 8th.

The relative planet's> exaltation etc. will denote the high, medium, and low

status the> native will obtain in the said world."> > Those who disagree with

the basic teachings of Jyotish have no> business studying it. As Parashara

states in Ch.3:> "Only good will follow the teaching of this science to the

students> who are peacefully disposed, who honour the preceptors (and elders)>

who speak only truth and who are God-fearing. Woeful for ever> doubtlessly will

it be to impart knowledge of this science to an> unwilling student, to a

heterodox, and to a crafty person."> > [PS: no need to send your arguments on

to me - I'm simply conveying> Parashara's teachings...]> > BTW a true Vedic

astrologer has respect for all religions as he> understands totally the

implications of planets influencing 9th> house. For Das, BTW, the heavy

influence of F/M Saturn on both 9th> lord and 9th house is obvious in his

writings. This is the way it is> for Das and he's obviously okay with that (so

he says). But I do> think he should be more respectful to those who do honour

religion,> religious teachers, gurus etc.. Intolerance is used as an argument>

(only) when accusing others who object to his intolerance...bigotry, > it

seems, has many disguises!??> > In response to John and Patricia's post I offer

the following story> (in part and from memory) as narrated to me by ShantiMayi:>

> "Krishna had two Valets, one was Jay, the other Vijay. Vijay, a very> high

soul, very loving, very honest, was greatly loved by Krishna.> When Vijay died

he went to Brahma loka (as he'd been told he would)> and, in his eagerness to

see Brahma, he tripped and fell over a> little Ashwini Kumara who cursed him to

a thousand more lives.> Devastated, Vijay pleaded with Brahma to lift the

curse.> Unfortunately Brahma could not lift the curse completely (karma is>

karma and must be fulfilled) so he told Vijay he would give him a> choice.> >

1) You can live 10 lives as a great saint; everyone will love you;> you will

give everyone back to themselves; speak only of God; your> whole life will be

cared for so sweetly; always the flowers will> come; always the nectar will

come into the people you are with. Your> death will be a great honour. OR...> >

2) You can live 3 lives as a demon. No one will like you; you'll live> a

miserable life, everyone will hate you, and you will die a violent> death.> >

Vijay said, "Lord, I'll take 3 lives as a demon - it's much quicker> getting

home." Immediately Vijay was placed into the womb of> Krishna's cousin (I

think, or maybe aunt?). As the story was told to> me he (Sisupala) was born

with three eyes and four arms. Brahma told> Sisupala's mother that as soon as

the child was placed on the lap of> the one who would kill him, one eye would

recede, two arms would> recede, and the child would be normal. And, of course,

as soon as he> was placed on Krishna's lap, this is what happened.> >

Sisupala's mother was shocked and said "Krishna, you're going to kill> my

son!", Krishna replied that he would take a million insults from> her son. He

didn't however say that he would not kill Sisupala.> > Sisupala grew up hating

Krishna (always hurling insults at him). Then> one final day, after hurling

more insults, Sisupala challenged> Krishna to a duel...the time had come! As

Krishna took aim with his> chakra he looked at Sisupala with all the love in

his heart because> he knew it was his beloved Vijay. Immediately the chakra

struck, the> golden form of Vijay knelt at Krishna's feet and whispered,

"Thank> you Krishna, one life finished, so much closer to home."> > To me, the

crux of this story is that we don't (really) know another> person. We may think

we know by looking at their karma in this> life...but what do we truly know

about the people we're looking at> and (often) judging. It's a beautiful

story!> > Best Wishes,> Mrs. Wendy> http://JyotishVidya.com>

______________________________> valist, Patricia

Robinett <patricia@>> wrote:> > john, to me, the point of the story is that>

nothing but heaven exists.> we are just entertaining ourselves with> our ideas

of 'hell.' > heaven is inevitable.> we might as well enjoy it here too.> >

love, patricia> > > On Mar 18, 2006, at 11:26 AM, John wrote:> > There's a story

in the Shrimad Bhagavatam about a man who hated> Krishna so much with his whole

being. At one gathering, the man> stood up to denounce Krishna who

subsequently threw his sudarshan> disc to cut the man's head off. After the

man's death, his soul went> to heaven anyway.> > Moral of the story: in spite

of his hatred, he constantly thought of> Krishna. Thus, he was saved.>To

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[Guest guest]

Dear Das,

 

Although I intended never to post to your list again this really does

need to be said....

 

valist, Das Goravani <> wrote:

 

//Sure, stupid people should leave important, delicate, intellectual

matters for those with say, Jupiter in the 9th in it's own sign as

final dispositor of all planets in the chart, but hey, those folks

don't ever do what they're told, so there again, just having an old

book talking is useless.//

 

As we both know your, not so subtle, reference to 'stupid people' was

aimed directly at me. But that's okay because I truly do understand

your mental state at the moment...it must be harrowing for you! I did

write to you privately Das, offering some simple remedy to appease

Saturn in your chart and your response was, "Yea, Whatever!" The

truth is you don't really want any help Das...or better to say,

Saturn in 9th denies you the help you need.

 

Your Jupiter in the 9th as you (should) know is badly afflicted by

Saturn and the fact that Jupiter is your final dispositor just makes

it worse. You need to understand Saturn in your chart, Das. First

thing to know is that, having required the requisite ShadBala

(Jupiter has not), Saturn can, and obviously has, overpowered

Jupiter. Saturn, when malefic, can be a very cruel planet! Second

thing to know is that 11th lord Saturn is a trishadaya lord and as

such he is extremely inauspicious. Scripture tells us also that a

benefic in trishadaya house is harmed. For you, 4th lord Moon,

conjunct Ketu in 11th, is aspected by 11th lord Saturn.

 

//Using stories about Krishna (who we are not sure even existed) and

using quotes from Hindu books to make me seem like a bad guy actually

makes me laugh.//

 

There was no intention to make you feel like a bad guy...this is your

paranoia speaking, Das!

 

//Besides, I'm NOT studying Jyotish. I already know as much as I

care to. I'm also not a practicing astrologer.//

 

You obviously don't know as much as you need to.

 

//The heavy handed Hindu anger you expressed does not come from my

offenses. It comes from within you.//

 

No anger whatsoever Das - simply sharing the teachings of Parashara.

 

//In conclusion, Wendy, you're a trip, and I am not angry at you for

acting like I might have about 10 years ago. Even if I never was a

Hindu fanatic as your post makes you sound, still, I am not angry at

you.//

 

You are in fact quite angry with me. But, again, this is

understandable as Jyotishis, along with religious leaders, Brahmins,

gurus and so forth are all under the governance of 9th house. And

your hatred (at the moment) for all things connected with this house

is palpable. Unfortunately for me, with unaflicted 9th lord Mercury

in highest degree of exaltation in 9th, your hatred for me is most

intense, but that's okay - I do understand the reason behind your

hatred.

 

The current transit of this malefic Saturn through your 4th house

(aspecting pratyantar lord Venus) explains the posts you've been

putting up lately. Venus, in lagna, is lord of 2nd house of speech

and dispositor of Sun & Mercury...Mercury being lord of 3rd house of

communications through writing etc..

 

I really am sorry things are so hard for you Das and, at the risk of

being abused again, I advise you to take steps to pacify Saturn.

 

Best Wishes,

Mrs. Wendy

http://JyotishVidya.com

______________________________

[Guest guest]

Wendy,

 

Leave me alone!

 

 

 

 

Reeshart Mach Aeoidh

 

aka Das Goravani

 

 

 

 

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