Guest guest Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Dear List: Can someone clarify whether the Moon's ingress into a sign and the beginning of the void Moon cycle are the same time as shown in Western calculations? It seems that the eclipses (and planetary aspects) are at the same time in both eastern and western astrology (although the signs are different), but what about the time of Moon void/sign changes? One western astrologer told me that the moon void cycle begins following the last aspect between planets; for example, on Friday, December 12, the Moon enters Cancer at 6:40 AM EST (Western ephemeris for time). The Void Moon cycle begins at 1:53 AM EST, which is also the time the Moon aspects Mars, and I do not see any other planetary aspects after 1:53 AM until the Moon's entry into Cancer at 6:40 AM (Leo Moon in Western calculations). ( I think the astrologer meant other planetary aspects, not just the Moon aspecting another planet, but I'm unsure of this). Another Jyotish from this list (who uses Parashara's Light) saw the Moon entering Gemini at 10 AM EST December 09, but the Western ephemeris showed its entry at 7:11 PM EST. This would be a 9-hour difference, which is considerable. Can anyone explain how the calculations are found for the Moon ingress and void cycle? Satyam Shivam Sundaram Janna -- Please visit my web site: http://seven_directions.tripod.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Dear Janna, The Moon is void of course from the moment of the Moon's last aspect within a sign to the moment the Moon enters the next sign. Other planet's subsequnt aspects, say Venus trine Saturn, don't count in regards to the Moon being or not being void of course, only the Moon's aspects count. I use Jim Maynard's Celestial Influences calendar which is (GADS!) tropical, so my signs are different than yours but my times are the same which makes me suspicious. I'm in Pacific time, but if I change my times to Eastern, then I have on Friday December 12 the Moon's last aspect being a trine to Mars at 1:53AM EST. The Moon is then void of course until it enters the next sign (I have it listed as Leo, sorry) at 6:40AM EST when the void of course then ends. However, according to Gilbert Navarro and Mary Shea (tropical astrologers) who put out a date book called "Good Days Action Planning Guide" the Moon's last aspect includes the Moon's last declination. So, for instance, on Tuesday December 16, instead of the Moon's last aspect (and start of void of course) being a trine to Venus at 12:49PM EST, they say the Moon's last aspect is a parallel to Jupiter at 2:56PM EST and therefore the Moon doesn't go void of course until 2:56PM EST. It then enters the next sign (and void of course ends) at 10:46PM EST. For December 9, I have the Moon's ingress into CANCER (tropical) at 7:11PM EST which agrees, timewise, with your Western Ephemeris. If the tropical and sidereal zodiacs were exactly one sign apart, then I could see that sidereally the Moon could enter GEMINI at the same time, but since they are 23 degrees apart, I suspect that the person using PL who listed the ingress into GEMINI as 10AM EST may be right sidereally, while the western ephemeris is right tropically. It seems to me that when the Moon is entering Cancer tropically, it is 6 or 7 degrees into sidereal Gemini, therefore it would enter Gemini whatever number of hours EARLIER that the Moon needs to move those 6 or 7 degrees. I don't know if that would come out to 9 hours in that sign. I'm too lazy to figure it out. Of course, on this last paragraph I'm just guessing. Hopefully someone who actually knows will clarify it for you. Hopefully that answers your question. --- Janna Lynn <jnanalynn wrote: > Dear List: > > Can someone clarify whether the Moon's ingress into > a sign and the > beginning of the void Moon cycle are the same time > as shown in Western > calculations? It seems that the eclipses (and > planetary aspects) are at the > same time in both eastern and western astrology > (although the signs are > different), but what about the time of Moon > void/sign changes? > > One western astrologer told me that the moon void > cycle begins following the > last aspect between planets; for example, on Friday, > December 12, the Moon > enters Cancer at 6:40 AM EST (Western ephemeris for > time). The Void Moon > cycle begins at 1:53 AM EST, which is also the time > the Moon aspects Mars, > and I do not see any other planetary aspects after > 1:53 AM until the Moon's > entry into Cancer at 6:40 AM (Leo Moon in Western > calculations). > > ( I think the astrologer meant other planetary > aspects, not just the Moon > aspecting another planet, but I'm unsure of this). > Another Jyotish from this list > (who uses Parashara's Light) saw the Moon entering > Gemini at 10 AM EST > December 09, but the Western ephemeris showed its > entry at 7:11 PM EST. > This would be a 9-hour difference, which is > considerable. > > Can anyone explain how the calculations are found > for the Moon ingress and > void cycle? > > Satyam Shivam Sundaram > > Janna > New Photos - easier uploading and sharing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 Dear Mary: I agree the key in sidereal/tropical time is as you point out the 23 degree difference in the two zodiacs. What I arrive at is there is a 3 1/2 hour difference in time (1 degree of Moon's movement = 2 hours; 3 1/2 hours = 7 degrees, the difference between the two zodiacs of 23 and 30 degrees). I could therefore see that the Moon would enter Gemini at 3:30 PM (sidereal) instead of 7:11 PM (tropical) on December 9 to account for the 7 degree difference. However, I do not know why there would be a 9-hour difference, between Parashara Light (sidereal) calculations and tropical time. If my analysis is correct?, on December 12, the Moon would move into Cancer (sidereal) 3 1/2 hours earlier than shown in the tropical ephemeris, or 3:10 AM instead of 6:40 AM EST (to account for the 7 degree difference), following the Void Moon at 1:53 AM when the Moon aspects Mars. This leads to another question: Is the Moon-Mars aspect the sidereal Gemini Moon 3rd-aspecting Mars in Pisces) or tropical Cancer Moon 4th-aspecting Mars in Pisces? The tropical ephemeris shows it as a 4th aspect (trine), which would be Mars in Pisces aspecting Cancer Moon (tropical) before the Moon enters Leo (tropical) at 6:40 AM. ??? I would appreciate others on the list who know these calculations more precisely correcting my reasoning. Thanks, Mary for your illumination, especially of the Moon's last aspect with a planet as the beginning of the Void Moon cycle. Satyam Shivam Sundaram Janna http://seven_directions.tripod.com (If the tropical and sidereal > zodiacs were exactly one sign apart, then I could see > that sidereally the Moon could enter GEMINI at the > same time, but since they are 23 degrees apart, I > suspect that the person using PL who listed the > ingress into GEMINI as 10AM EST may be right > sidereally, while the western ephemeris is right > tropically. It seems to me that when the Moon is > entering Cancer tropically, it is 6 or 7 degrees into > sidereal Gemini, therefore it would enter Gemini > whatever number of hours EARLIER that the Moon needs > to move those 6 or 7 degrees.) gjlist, Mary Quinn <mary1quinn> wrote: > Dear Janna, > > The Moon is void of course from the moment of the > Moon's last aspect within a sign to the moment the > Moon enters the next sign. Other planet's subsequnt > aspects, say Venus trine Saturn, don't count in > regards to the Moon being or not being void of course, > only the Moon's aspects count. > > I use Jim Maynard's Celestial Influences calendar > which is (GADS!) tropical, so my signs are different > than yours but my times are the same which makes me > suspicious. I'm in Pacific time, but if I change my > times to Eastern, then I have on Friday December 12 > the Moon's last aspect being a trine to Mars at 1:53AM > EST. The Moon is then void of course until it enters > the next sign (I have it listed as Leo, sorry) at > 6:40AM EST when the void of course then ends. > > However, according to Gilbert Navarro and Mary Shea > (tropical astrologers) who put out a date book called > "Good Days Action Planning Guide" the Moon's last > aspect includes the Moon's last declination. So, for > instance, on Tuesday December 16, instead of the > Moon's last aspect (and start of void of course) being > a trine to Venus at 12:49PM EST, they say the Moon's > last aspect is a parallel to Jupiter at 2:56PM EST and > therefore the Moon doesn't go void of course until > 2:56PM EST. It then enters the next sign (and void of > course ends) at 10:46PM EST. > > For December 9, I have the Moon's ingress into CANCER > (tropical) at 7:11PM EST which agrees, timewise, with > your Western Ephemeris. If the tropical and sidereal > zodiacs were exactly one sign apart, then I could see > that sidereally the Moon could enter GEMINI at the > same time, but since they are 23 degrees apart, I > suspect that the person using PL who listed the > ingress into GEMINI as 10AM EST may be right > sidereally, while the western ephemeris is right > tropically. It seems to me that when the Moon is > entering Cancer tropically, it is 6 or 7 degrees into > sidereal Gemini, therefore it would enter Gemini > whatever number of hours EARLIER that the Moon needs > to move those 6 or 7 degrees. I don't know if that > would come out to 9 hours in that sign. I'm too lazy > to figure it out. Of course, on this last paragraph > I'm just guessing. Hopefully someone who actually > knows will clarify it for you. > > Hopefully that answers your question. > > --- Janna Lynn <jnanalynn> wrote: > > Dear List: > > > > Can someone clarify whether the Moon's ingress into > > a sign and the > > beginning of the void Moon cycle are the same time > > as shown in Western > > calculations? It seems that the eclipses (and > > planetary aspects) are at the > > same time in both eastern and western astrology > > (although the signs are > > different), but what about the time of Moon > > void/sign changes? > > > > One western astrologer told me that the moon void > > cycle begins following the > > last aspect between planets; for example, on Friday, > > December 12, the Moon > > enters Cancer at 6:40 AM EST (Western ephemeris for > > time). The Void Moon > > cycle begins at 1:53 AM EST, which is also the time > > the Moon aspects Mars, > > and I do not see any other planetary aspects after > > 1:53 AM until the Moon's > > entry into Cancer at 6:40 AM (Leo Moon in Western > > calculations). > > > > ( I think the astrologer meant other planetary > > aspects, not just the Moon > > aspecting another planet, but I'm unsure of this). > > Another Jyotish from this list > > (who uses Parashara's Light) saw the Moon entering > > Gemini at 10 AM EST > > December 09, but the Western ephemeris showed its > > entry at 7:11 PM EST. > > This would be a 9-hour difference, which is > > considerable. > > > > Can anyone explain how the calculations are found > > for the Moon ingress and > > void cycle? > > > > Satyam Shivam Sundaram > > > > Janna > > > > > > > > New Photos - easier uploading and sharing. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 Dear Janna, I understood that the Moon moves slightly faster in some signs, slower in others. However I too use the "1 degree in 2 hours" rule to calculate the Moon's approximate movement. However, that would mean that it would take the Moon 14 hours to move 7 degrees, not 3.5 hours. Of course, the difference between tropical and sidereal is more than 23 degrees, and the Moon's movement is not exactly 1 degree every 2 hours, but still - I don't know how your friend arrived at the 9 hour difference. Oof. Shortcut: T. = Tropical, S. = Sidereal, V/C = void of course. However this whole discussion brings up an important point. The S.Zodiac and the T.Zodiac are different. Therefore the Moon V/C cycles will be different between the two and the aspect which starts the V/C will be different. So we really can't compare the two without MAJOR confusion. The S.Moon entering Gemini on December 9 at approximately 5:11AM EST (by my possibly flawed guess) would end the previous Sidereal V/C which would have started with the S.Moon's last aspect (opposition Pluto if you count the outers, or square Jupiter if you don't...uh-oh, was that the sound of a can of worms being opened?). The T.Moon, though, doesn't V/C until the trine to Uranus at 5:48PM EST. T.Moon enters Cancer at 7:11PM EST ending the Tropical V/C. Jumping then to December 12 and the Moon-Mars question you had. Since the Moon-Mars aspect is dependent on how many degrees they are apart, the aspect occurs at the same time in both zodiacs. However, in TROPICAL the Moon-Mars aspect (being the last aspect while the Moon is T.Cancer and before it enters T.Leo) is the beginning of the Moon's V/C. Not so in Sidereal. The S.Moon is at only 7 S.Gemini and has plenty more aspects to make before it leaves S.Gemini some 50-something hours later. So although the T.Moon V/C'd at 1:53AM EST when T.Moon trined Mars, and the V/C ended when T.Moon entered T.Leo at 6:40AM EST, the S.Moon was still busy making aspects in S.Gemini. I don't think the S.Moon would V/C until December 14 when it trines Sun at 12:39AM EST and ends when S.Moon enters S.Cancer on December 14 somewhere around 4:40AM EST. Of course all these calculations are in my head and I could be off. Sorry. However, this whole discussion begs the most important question. IS THERE SUCH A THING AS A VOID OF COURSE MOON IN VEDIC ASTROLOGY? Maybe this is just a tropical concept which could make it all do-do anyway. After all, aren't there fewer aspects in Vedic astrology for the Moon to make? And if you eliminate all the outer planets, then the S.Moon would be V/C more often than not, especially every time the personal planets are in the early degrees of any sign. Anyway, I know little to nothing Vedic-wise. So, again, I'm not the authority on this issue. But what I've told you tropically is correct. Still, I get the feeling the Moon V/C thing doesn't apply to Jyotish. Hopefully someone else will answer this question. New Photos - easier uploading and sharing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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