Everybody's confusion

[Guest guest]

Dear Tushar,

 

> If we can not come to accurate theory and astrology is just creating

> more confusions in life then there is no use of such knowledge that's

> what I believe.

 

An interesting discussion about the subject of accuracy of astrologers'

predictions was taking place in the beginning days of June last year under

the topic '360 OR 365.25 DAYS?'. I think that it has a lot to do with your

doubts and confusions, so you might look back to the archive.

 

You have brought to light two criteria of judging the usefulness of Jyotish:

understendability of rules and accuracy of how life experience fits

astrological patterns. As far as understadability is concerned this has a

lot to do with our own ability to grasp the rules and parts of astrological

patterns in a chart and synthetize them into final judgment and prediction.

You can't falsify or prove a theory you don't understand. Therefore I would

say that astrology, as any complex subject, has even more to do with the

principle "first seek to understand, then to be understood", or "if you

don't have any faith in diagnosis, certainly won't be able to accept a

prescription".

 

An example of natural and functional nature of planets is only a very

limited presentation of complexity of task that an astrologer has to face

before any pondered "prescription" is made by him. To judge a nature of a

planet and scale of its meaning one has to take into consideration other

patterns like: placement in sign and house (not only in a rasi chart, but in

other charts too, navamsa as example), aspects and relations with other

lords, yogas, shad-bala, vimsopaka, astakavarga points. Some other

astrologers would say that you have to see arudha pada to understand if you

are to see true or illusory point of view of the matter. I am sure some

other jyotishis would say: 'Hey, you have omitted ...' But this is only a

suggestion how many other factors have to be seen to understand ONE

element - a planet.

 

This is a completely different matter to have a ready conclusion that might

be presented to a chart owner. It requires many more elements understood,

and all of that synthetized into a coherent picture relevant to practical

life. The way from understanding the elements to understanding the picture

is a very long or very short one, depending on the person and circumstances.

One may make a mistake of simplifying that problem only to Mercurian level

of intellectual schemes.

 

Just like chess is a quite complex game, in which a number of options

multiplies by each move. Rules are SCIENTIFICALLY clear and you can program

them into chess software run on extremely fast computers, like Deep Blue for

example. But even in case of a system with such clear mathematical rules

like chess, where only speed of calculations matters, a man sits there, and

He wins the game with the computer. And it is obvious - he can't count as

fast as the machine, but has something that the machine hasn't - that is an

intuition, or insight. Some call it Paramatma, or spirits, or anything else

of radically-not-mathematical nature.

 

Coming back to astrology and a very personal level of discussion, I would

say that I gave up an effort of making from Jyotish a mathematical science a

long time ago. It doesn't mean I don't learn and try to understand the

rules. I do very much. But 'bad' news is we will never callculate as fast as

fastest computers (and they become faster with time also) and another 'bad'

news: jyotish is incredibly much more complex than chess. Your "there are 12

planets, 12 signs and 27 stars" is a very polite way of saying it.

 

Therefore I would say that I agree with you as far as what counts is how

much we understand from it. But my conclusion is different. For me Jyotish

is a God's talk. I am happy if I understand it (and understand the chart of

a person and have a proper and true conclusion). But even if I don't

understand (Have I said 'even'? - I should say: 'When I don't understand

99,99% of it'), I can't stop hearing it. It is simply beautiful. Every word,

phrase and passage.

 

Ten years ago, one day some broke man came to me with his wife. He was very

poor and sick, just left a hospital. He had a broken leg in a plaster up to

his hip. And he asked me if there is anything of interest ahead of him in

his life. I told him he would set up and run schools in the future that

would help others, and would be very successful. I also told him when. He

was a scientifically minded person and when we met few months ago he told me

he was laughing when they left my house then. He was ridiculling all of it

in his former condition. But two years later it all started to unfold. Now

he runs schools in his country and also started abroad. I think I am

thankful I could grasp that phrase, that passage of God, and pass it to this

man, what appeared a challenge of God thrown to him. I am thankful for this

and other such occasions...

 

> I have lots of example which violets well known Astrology rules. May

> be my knowledge is not sufficient so that I could not resolve the

> cause of problem. I want to discuss all this example (charts) with

> group members so that students like me can understand the mysteries

> of astrology.

 

You should first make sure your data for these samples is correct. It is

difficult to expect good diagnosis on tests of other patients. It happens

very often the data is not accurate.

 

> There is no theory where it is possible that every planets are

> supportive to an individual then why some people gets everything in

> life? and there is no theory where it is possible that every planets

> are giving negative effect to an individual person then why some

> people gets nothing in life?

 

I haven't met anybody who gets everything in life, or who gets nothing. All

life is a ballance and you hardly touch extremes, and certainly not on all

levels of experience. If, for example, somebody is born in the Dasa of

Jupiter or Saturn, then most of his life would be spent in the Dasas of

Saturn, Mercury, Ketu and Venus. If these planets are functional malefics

for him, are badly placed, etc. he might have ahead of him quite a challenge

of deficit for about 60 years of life. But if these planets are functional

benefics, are nicely placed, strong, unafflicted, he might have another

challenge of excess for the same period of life. It is a huge simplification

just for the sake of discussion. But the one with deficit might be quite

happy in his strives, whereas the one with excess might have a lot of

headaches as far as what to do with what he has, how to protect it from

other pretenders desirous of sharing his goods.

 

> CONSLUSIVELY MY QUESTION IS WHAT IS THE THEORY TO KNOW WHICH PLANET

> IS CREATING WHAT KIND OF EFFECT IN INDIVIDUAL'S LIFE AND WHEN

> CERTAINS INCIDENCE HAPPENS IN SOMEONE'S LIFE?

 

Conclusively your request means 'Please, teach me how to be a good

astrologer.' My suggestion is: 'Learn the rules, hear a lot of God's talk

'even' (Have I really said that?) if you don't understand; ask specific

questions about the problems you face (give your examples after you check

them for reliable data).

 

All the best,

 

Bart

 

P.S.

Is not a light from God (Jyotish) a beautiful speach? So complex, you can

describe the world, yet so concise, you can fit it in a time of an event?

Hearing mere sound of it is a priviledge, whereas understanding of it is a

blessing, a God's favour!

[Guest guest]

Dear Bart,

 

Very well said. I could not read your post with enough time but I had a quick

look at it and I find myself agreed to most of what you said :-)

 

There can hardly be a strict theory to answer the queries Tushar made. It is a

matter of all practice and experience, knowledge etc.Regards,Tanvir

 

"What can not happen, can never happen.Which is mine, is forever mine."

 

Tanvir

Chowdhurytanvir (AT) siriusbb (DOT) comhttp://www.geocities.com/king_tanvirhttp://www.geocities.com/planetaryastro

 

 

-

Bart Glowacki

gjlist

Sunday, April 27, 2003 4:03 AM

Re: [GJ] Everybody's confusion

Dear Tushar,> If we can not come to accurate theory and astrology is just

creating> more confusions in life then there is no use of such knowledge

that's> what I believe.An interesting discussion about the subject of accuracy

of astrologers'predictions was taking place in the beginning days of June last

year underthe topic '360 OR 365.25 DAYS?'. I think that it has a lot to do with

yourdoubts and confusions, so you might look back to the archive.You have

brought to light two criteria of judging the usefulness of

Jyotish:understendability of rules and accuracy of how life experience

fitsastrological patterns. As far as understadability is concerned this has

alot to do with our own ability to grasp the rules and parts of

astrologicalpatterns in a chart and synthetize them into final judgment and

prediction.You can't falsify or prove a theory you don't understand. Therefore

I wouldsay that astrology, as any complex subject, has even more to do with

theprinciple "first seek to understand, then to be understood", or "if youdon't

have any faith in diagnosis, certainly won't be able to accept aprescription".An

example of natural and functional nature of planets is only a verylimited

presentation of complexity of task that an astrologer has to facebefore any

pondered "prescription" is made by him. To judge a nature of aplanet and scale

of its meaning one has to take into consideration otherpatterns like: placement

in sign and house (not only in a rasi chart, but inother charts too, navamsa as

example), aspects and relations with otherlords, yogas, shad-bala, vimsopaka,

astakavarga points. Some otherastrologers would say that you have to see arudha

pada to understand if youare to see true or illusory point of view of the

matter. I am sure someother jyotishis would say: 'Hey, you have omitted ...'

But this is only asuggestion how many other factors have to be seen to

understand ONEelement - a planet.This is a completely different matter to have

a ready conclusion that mightbe presented to a chart owner. It requires many

more elements understood,and all of that synthetized into a coherent picture

relevant to practicallife. The way from understanding the elements to

understanding the pictureis a very long or very short one, depending on the

person and circumstances.One may make a mistake of simplifying that problem

only to Mercurian levelof intellectual schemes.Just like chess is a quite

complex game, in which a number of optionsmultiplies by each move. Rules are

SCIENTIFICALLY clear and you can programthem into chess software run on

extremely fast computers, like Deep Blue forexample. But even in case of a

system with such clear mathematical ruleslike chess, where only speed of

calculations matters, a man sits there, andHe wins the game with the computer.

And it is obvious - he can't count asfast as the machine, but has something

that the machine hasn't - that is anintuition, or insight. Some call it

Paramatma, or spirits, or anything elseof radically-not-mathematical

nature.Coming back to astrology and a very personal level of discussion, I

wouldsay that I gave up an effort of making from Jyotish a mathematical science

along time ago. It doesn't mean I don't learn and try to understand therules. I

do very much. But 'bad' news is we will never callculate as fast asfastest

computers (and they become faster with time also) and another 'bad'news:

jyotish is incredibly much more complex than chess. Your "there are 12planets,

12 signs and 27 stars" is a very polite way of saying it.Therefore I would say

that I agree with you as far as what counts is howmuch we understand from it.

But my conclusion is different. For me Jyotishis a God's talk. I am happy if I

understand it (and understand the chart ofa person and have a proper and true

conclusion). But even if I don'tunderstand (Have I said 'even'? - I should say:

'When I don't understand99,99% of it'), I can't stop hearing it. It is simply

beautiful. Every word,phrase and passage.Ten years ago, one day some broke man

came to me with his wife. He was verypoor and sick, just left a hospital. He

had a broken leg in a plaster up tohis hip. And he asked me if there is

anything of interest ahead of him inhis life. I told him he would set up and

run schools in the future thatwould help others, and would be very successful.

I also told him when. Hewas a scientifically minded person and when we met few

months ago he told mehe was laughing when they left my house then. He was

ridiculling all of itin his former condition. But two years later it all

started to unfold. Nowhe runs schools in his country and also started abroad. I

think I amthankful I could grasp that phrase, that passage of God, and pass it

to thisman, what appeared a challenge of God thrown to him. I am thankful for

thisand other such occasions...> I have lots of example which violets well

known Astrology rules. May> be my knowledge is not sufficient so that I could

not resolve the> cause of problem. I want to discuss all this example (charts)

with> group members so that students like me can understand the mysteries> of

astrology.You should first make sure your data for these samples is correct. It

isdifficult to expect good diagnosis on tests of other patients. It happensvery

often the data is not accurate.> There is no theory where it is possible that

every planets are> supportive to an individual then why some people gets

everything in> life? and there is no theory where it is possible that every

planets> are giving negative effect to an individual person then why some>

people gets nothing in life?I haven't met anybody who gets everything in life,

or who gets nothing. Alllife is a ballance and you hardly touch extremes, and

certainly not on alllevels of experience. If, for example, somebody is born in

the Dasa ofJupiter or Saturn, then most of his life would be spent in the Dasas

ofSaturn, Mercury, Ketu and Venus. If these planets are functional maleficsfor

him, are badly placed, etc. he might have ahead of him quite a challengeof

deficit for about 60 years of life. But if these planets are

functionalbenefics, are nicely placed, strong, unafflicted, he might have

anotherchallenge of excess for the same period of life. It is a huge

simplificationjust for the sake of discussion. But the one with deficit might

be quitehappy in his strives, whereas the one with excess might have a lot

ofheadaches as far as what to do with what he has, how to protect it fromother

pretenders desirous of sharing his goods.> CONSLUSIVELY MY QUESTION IS WHAT IS

THE THEORY TO KNOW WHICH PLANET> IS CREATING WHAT KIND OF EFFECT IN

INDIVIDUAL'S LIFE AND WHEN> CERTAINS INCIDENCE HAPPENS IN SOMEONE'S

LIFE?Conclusively your request means 'Please, teach me how to be a

goodastrologer.' My suggestion is: 'Learn the rules, hear a lot of God's

talk'even' (Have I really said that?) if you don't understand; ask

specificquestions about the problems you face (give your examples after you

checkthem for reliable data).All the best,BartP.S.Is not a light from God

(Jyotish) a beautiful speach? So complex, you candescribe the world, yet so

concise, you can fit it in a time of an event?Hearing mere sound of it is a

priviledge, whereas understanding of it is ablessing, a God's favour!Om Namo

Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat:

gjlist-http://www.goravani.com Your use of

is subject to

[Guest guest]

Dear Bart - Your reply to Tushar struck chords within my own experience. I

too am a beginning Jyotish student. I have always been interested in

Astrology(Western) from childhood with a Mother who loved to read astrology

magazines. Later, I found someone who pointed out the beautiful poetry of

it. About two months ago I stumbled on the topic of Jyotish, thinking I

would never be interested in such an esoteric foreign view of life. I picked

up Levacy's book with the accompanying CD. The CD gave me an access to

Goravani Jyotish, an amazing software package. Behold, here I am now

surrounded by books and videos on Jyotish, struggling mightily to understand

this complex art so as to reach a point of eventually synthesizing all these

various concepts into an comprehensible whole. I am not there yet. Still I

have the audacity to want to take the ACVA exam for Level I certification at

the Sedona conference in November. Certification is not really necessary for

astrology work, but it gives a more comfortable feeling to know that one's

peers and mentors can approve of one's work. (Sedona is one of the world's

power points and I am thinking that is a nice place to start.)

May Lord Ganesha bless all beginning astrologers and wannabe

astrologers.

--