Saturn, and Andrew Lynn's points...

[Guest guest]

Re Saturn and Andrew's experience with clients being hit hard by hard

experiences...

 

 

What I see is on a very different level:

 

 

I see Andrew is frightened by the hard parts of life with his clients, which

we all know are coming to all of us if it's not here already, as are we

all/most of us (frightened). (Death, Disease, Old Age- are these days

"frightening")

 

I see he is reaching out to the "spiritualists" for CONVINCING clarification

of how to take these things.

 

I agree with him, as do we all, when we feel this need of spiritual shelter.

 

 

My points at this time:

 

 

The "tribal" remedies that he mentioned, that we find in scriptures, are for

a time when people are closely intertwined in their single-race ancestral

situations, and are Hindus in India. Those words are for brown Arians in

ancient times in their ancestral villages, ancestral culture. It was a

different time than now.

 

The same goes for Celtic, African, Tuetonic, Chinese, what have you... The

ancient times were different than now.

 

We could use a lesson from there though: When you are closely in contact

with your ancestors on a day to day basis in both life and death, then death

takes on a different perspective. You feel the continuity, you see the

respect for the gone, the deceased, you see them being fed, welcomed back,

etc. This feeling of continuity removes the fear of death. Then, diseases

and hardship take on a very spiritual light, and remedies of spiritual type

take on great significance and are efficatious.

 

Consider this quote made by another: "For the Celts, the experience of real

religion ended when the cemetaries were separated from the Churches"

 

I think such is true for everyone actually.

 

As for "weird remedies":

 

The fact that such things are hogwash today is testimony only to that we

have removed spirituality, and death, from our list of concerns and

interests as societies, which is the greatest mistake we've ever made, which

will be the greatest fix we ever undertake.

 

I am finding great solace and repair in remembering my ancestors, and I mean

recent as well as long past, and my kids, and my nurses, teachers, and so

on, and actually thinking of them, praying to them, honoring them. It is

giving me continuity, which is removing my fears.

 

The bad things Andrew's clients are experiencing are only "bad" because they

are removing the person from their current body, causing pain in their

current body, messing with their plans for enjoyment and "fulfillment" in

their current body. These thoughts and woes are signs of lack of

spirituality, or the continuity of life and death through both death and

birth.

 

I'm NOT above them. I'm just becoming very aware of this problem, having

suffered alot myself.

 

So actually, the balance is to recognize that indeed Parashara and the silly

stuff of ancient Hinduism really IS good and really IS Helpful, but we need

to understand that it's a part of a larger scheme, and needs that context to

make sense.

 

By the way, the marriage at young age is also good, if understood fully. But

I won't go there right now. Consider teen problems today, consider that all

the sex models are teen agers, consider the lust they feel, consider good

astrology, strong supportive family structures that last throughout one's

life, consider the context of ancient India. Don't lambast. Don't think

we're better today. I think we've lost alot, not only gained. We also need

some of that back.

 

Being upset is a sign of need. Using loud, lambasting and demeaning

expressions towards an ancient culture or keeper of culture (Parashara) is a

sign of need, of fear, of wanting clarification, and so I am offering my

latest level of understanding, in an introductory way, herein.

 

This is not fundamentalist. I'm not preaching. This is towards

understanding. I am not better. I'm puny. I'm seeking too.

 

Towards solutions,

 

Das/Rick

[Guest guest]

>

>

> I see Andrew is frightened by the hard parts of life with his clients,

which

> we all know are coming to all of us if it's not here already, as are we

> all/most of us (frightened). (Death, Disease, Old Age- are these days

> "frightening")

 

I myself am not frightened. I am clear that everything in the form of

physical matter must go through birth, growth, decay and death.

Understanding this however, does not make these things like decay and death

any easier when they hit us. My point is most people who approach an

astrologer, do so in desperation to find some form of meaning or reason to

why they have been hit with their suffering. What is needed is to explain to

them that all matter must go through these stages and nobody from the

poorest to the richest is spared from death. I usually explain that the only

real thing that you can do is move your consciousness from matter into

spirit. That is to identify yourself with that inner part of you that has

never changed, that part that is always there observing the ebbs and flows

of life. The physical body is not interested in all your intellectual

abstractions because it is only interested in its own survival and

preferably creating another one like it. Saturn is in a sense our strongest

indicator of the survival instinct. It shows how we provide material and

mental boundaries in our lives. It shows order and structure but at the same

time wants to show this order is mind made by the mind identifying itself in

time. This is why Saturn relates to time. The mind can only function

properly when it identifies itself in a space/time continuum.

 

 

The "tribal" remedies that he mentioned, that we find in scriptures, are

for

> a time when people are closely intertwined in their single-race ancestral

> situations, and are Hindus in India. Those words are for brown Arians in

> ancient times in their ancestral villages, ancestral culture. It was a

> different time than now.

 

 

My real point is that it is an impractical solution that would not be

accepted by most people in the modern world. We would have the basic issue

of finding and iron pot or crows to feed for a start. I am not either for or

against remedial measures and I honestly do not know if, or how they work.

Many people I see prescribing these remedies are simply just parroting

something they have read in a book and this is my problem. In his

autobiography, Yogananda told of his Guru putting on iron bracelets and

other remedies on him when he was faced with difficult cosmological

patterns. His mentor was said to be a self realized man so he may have had

the spiritual authority to do it. My beef is when remedial remedies become

the "great escape" or a flanker for an astrologer who does not really know

what is going on and is afraid to admit it. I see so many times on the lists

people writing for advice on a problem and getting a response like "you are

cursed because of killing snakes in a past life". The astrologer if he was

serious, would first try to understand what was really causing the problem

and then try to delineate how long the influence may last. All to often

people just say use "this mantra" or "feed crows on a Saturday." If they

were really honest with themselves and the person wanting advice, they would

say. "Basically, I have no bloody idea, but it is said in the ancient texts

that certain remedial measures may help" They are yadda yadda yadda. My

thinking is that the skilled astrologer will judge his clients capacity to

understand what he is saying and act on that.

 

 

 

> The bad things Andrew's clients are experiencing are only "bad" because

they

> are removing the person from their current body, causing pain in their

> current body, messing with their plans for enjoyment and "fulfillment" in

> their current body. These thoughts and woes are signs of lack of

> spirituality, or the continuity of life and death through both death and

> birth.

 

 

This sounds great in theory but tell that to a person who is dying from

cancer or another chronic waisting disease. I have no trouble with this and

maybe you don't either but Joe Average and his family does and they make up

the majority of humanity. If astrology is to be taken out of the hands of

the "spiritual elite" and used in a practical way by normal average people,

it must be made understandable in modern and realistic terms. This does not

mean we throw out the ancient principals as handed down by Parasara and

others. We must interpret them in regards to own present society. We don't

ride around on elephants or have snakes crawling around all over our

backyards anymore.

 

 

 

> So actually, the balance is to recognize that indeed Parashara and the

silly

> stuff of ancient Hinduism really IS good and really IS Helpful, but we

need

> to understand that it's a part of a larger scheme, and needs that context

to

> make sense.

 

 

I cannot ever remember even criticizing Parasara. I have been very scathing

on peoples interpretations and application of Parasara's principals, but I

cannot ever remember saying he was wrong about anything. I thought I was

clear in saying we have no real way of confirming a lot of what he was said

to have said, because, we have no psychic powers he may have had. This gets

back to people's lack of capacity to understand what I am really trying to

say. People constantly amaze me with the way they cannot see how prejudiced

and conditioned their minds really are. I wrote a long reply last time to

Wendy and gave many examples of KP astrology from charts I know well.

Instead of getting debate on my astrological theory all I got was moral

indignity because I happened to use a swear word to enforce an opinion. One

Indian person expressed such outrage at me I had to laugh. I wanted to write

back and tell them to apply that same outrage to some of the pressing

problems in India like the divisive and oppressive caste system, the lack of

basic hygiene, clean water, power and santitation in half their country. I

hope they express the same outrage at child beggars on their streets and

public toilets that are so foul you cannot enter them. I often wonder how

such an insignificant nobody like myself can bring out such rage and

animosity in people. All I ask for is clear debate on realistic ways to use

astrology. Why is this such a crime? What do they fear from my questions?

Could it be I invoke in them the insecurity that that do not know as much as

they think they do? I myself know little and are always interested in

learning more. Why does my curiosity in asking tough question frighten these

people??

 

 

 

> By the way, the marriage at young age is also good, if understood fully.

 

 

I also understand it and think it has merit as well. It is however illegal

in most countries. Spiritual reasons are unacceptable for most people

unfortunately.

 

 

 

> Don't lambast. Don't think

> we're better today. I think we've lost alot, not only gained. We also need

> some of that back.

 

 

We are better off materially and finacially now. Health and longevity has

improved as has the rights of women and children. In India and particulary

Pakistan, children and women still suffer greatly and to think it was better

in the past is a pipe dream. Bonded labour and child slavery are still

rampant all over Asia. In western society there is this perverse belief from

"eastern philosophy converts," that all the problems of the world are the

fault of evil white people and tribal people were living in social utopians

before these evil white men killed and conquered them. Many clear thinking

Indians would acknowledge the many benefits the English gave to India like

its rail system and roads etc. This idea of idealising the past does not fit

in with the findings of archeology and DNA testing of skeltons which reveal

many of these ancient people suffered from many chronic and debilitating

diseases. It is a fact that many Indians and Asians would pack up and move

to a western country in five minutes if given a chance. Our countries have

welfare, health care, clean water, sanitation and a standard of living far

superior to that found in their countries. That is a fact. The biggest

problems in western countries are the people constantly bagging, carping and

whining about their own country instead of being bloody grateful for the

great standard of living they have. Now India is a country of great

spiritual wisdom for sure but so was ancient Scotland, France, Thailand,

Cambodia etc etc. Material comfort is totally important in life. Who wants

wisdom if living in a rubbish bin??

 

 

 

> Being upset is a sign of need. Using loud, lambasting and demeaning

> expressions towards an ancient culture or keeper of culture (Parashara) is

a

> sign of need, of fear, of wanting clarification, and so I am offering my

> latest level of understanding, in an introductory way, herein.

 

 

I am neither upset, angry or use loud expression on these matters. This is

just your prejudiced mind at work. Prejudice means to pre-judge something

without any previous knowledge or exprerience of it. You neither know me or

have met me but simply judge me on my writing style. This is a dangerous

thing to do to say the least. I am actually usually laughing to myself as I

write because I feel totally silly and know it is just a way of filling up a

bit of time while watching the cricket on TV. My postings in reality are

like a dog barking as they are meaningless in reality.

 

Bone Idle