Research and tradition

[Guest guest]

This is what I call mystical fundamentalism. One can have great talent, big

siddhis even, but insisting upon this idea of the *ultimate* superiority of one

revelatory paradigm over another will eventually bring great suffering or even

insanity, because it just ain't so. We don't "beat" or the ocean of Samsara by

swimming against its current. The Jyotir Vidya is actually bigger than a single

astrological tradition. The Mother transcends such patriarchal sectarianism,

and will if necessary destroy any artificial vision demanding such division.

That the Vedic tradition is today in perhaps the best shape so far as

continuously sustained traditions go is one thing. (& I'm *inclined* to agree

with that assessment) But we (meaning most on this list) simply don't know

enough about many other extant traditional astrologies (e.g., Chinese, Tibetan,

western medieval predictive [as impressively restored by Robert Zoller]) **to

make the order of dismissals you do here.**

Nicholas, I agree with your plea against the mishmash paradigm. This much is

sound. But the western branch of our family (and we are all one family) wasn't

always such a mishmash. See </www.projecthindsight.com/> for a taste of what

was the glory of Hellenistic astrology.

As to the I Ching, it is one of the greatest *revealed* divinatory and, yes,

*astrological* texts available to us. You betray a startling bigotry and

narrowness, which is all the more poignant and sad given your uncontested

prodigious gifts in Jyotish. Not to mention this other little thing that some

of us stubborn artist types take exception to: your tidy and, yes, *sigh,*

patriarchal division between research and revelation.

In a nutshell, you the man, Nick. I mean all of this in true respect. However,

this last message did not really come from Ganesha or the Jyotir Vidya, (all

praises to both!) It unfortunately reminded me of a cross between an inspiring

piece of scripture commentary (because you can and do inspire; I want to

acknowledge this) and one of those smug little pamphets you get on the street

that informs us of "what we miss by being a Christian" -- & we open it to find,

in huge red letters: HELL!"

The greatest masters gave us all we have, but less exalted masters allowed

Jyotish to fall into disrepair for centuries, until the present great

Renaissance initiated by B.V. Raman, K.S. Krishnamurti et al. (I may be wrong,

but I'm guessing my mention of K.S.K. gives you the willies!) I mean, of all

the dasha systems auspiciously set forth by Parashara, the Vimshottari dasa

(admittedly the most accessible for many of us) was the only one used in the

workaday world of Jyotish for centuries

Prakriti is alive. Shakti is alive. Mother Nature is alive. The Jyotir Vidya

is alive. Creation, revelation and insight are ongoing and forever unfolding.

Ergo, research and revelation are not always such unholy bedfellows. The

mishmash / sloppiness expressions of astrology are the exact opposite of true

Creation and Revelation, and you appropriately warn us of the follies therein.

True Love (= creation = revelation) is very precise. Such love/ creativity /

revelation will never allow such sloppiness to persist....

....Not even (or especially not) in the name of the Jyotir Vidya.

Sarva mangalam,

J.I. Abbot

In a message dated 11/11/2002 12:06:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, jyotish108 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com writes:

There are many systems of divination : palmistry,forehead reading ,tea

leaves ,shell throwing,Chinese astrology , Mahabote , tarot cards,the I

ching and so on but the greatest masters have come from Vedic astrology

[Guest guest]

Bravissimo!

J.I. Abbot

In a message dated 11/11/2002 12:29:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, mouji99 writes:

Brihat Parashara Hora Shastra is a "Shruti" shastra.

Shruti means that it was orally related to the other

person who listened to it. How it cannot be called a

researched subject is little hard to believe because

anyone (in this case Parashara) who worked on those

principles and found it working only gave in turn

those principles to the listener. Therefore it was a

well researched subject (illuminations included).

Modern day research

The modern day research, as of today, is actually

trying to relook at those principles in the light of

today's society and re-interpreting them by blending

it to today's society. Those of you who have read

Navagraha Stotra, know that Mars is described there as

"vidyut kanti" (like electric) and Mars is the

significator of electricity. But which areas in

electricity is again now to be reinvestigated and

relocated in today's society. KP system or anyother

system expounded by many is nothing but an extension

of the Parashara legacy only.

Astrology : It is very difficult to evolve any system

which works 100% because if any such system existed,

then there is no need for God in the heavens. The God

would have travelled down to earth with 100% system of

prediction. Astrology is a long road, full of

potholes, full of obstructions and often leads one

into unwanted areas of pride and greed. These are the

obstructions put in by god to test the perseverance

and patience of the man practicing astrology.

Therefore, let astrology evolve inside all of us,

albeit slowly and patiently and let it lead us on path

of salvation rather than bringing us back to path of

materialism (bhoga). I am not trying to discredit any

system of astrology but in the name of doing something

new, it hurts to see that many people are in effect

discrediting astrology by pushing forward their wrong

notions as well researched astrological material. In

their books, you would find them contradicting

themselves on different pages.

Therefore, I respect Dr. B.V. Raman for keeping

astrology alive and Shri K.N. Rao for giving astrology

a wider and closer to home meaning. His researches

have over 90% of success rates and thats a phenomenal

success rate for anyone living in today's totally

hypocritical and materialistic world.

regards,

Manoj

PS : I dont mean this to be a prelude to any further

discussion on the subject, but on reading this mail,

just thought of penning my thoughts on it. No offence

to anyone.

[Guest guest]

We don't "beat" or the ocean of Samsara by swimming against its current.

Excuse me, this was supposed to read:

'We don't "beat" Maya or the ocean of Samsara by swimming against its current.'

[Guest guest]

Dear List Members

 

Since the arrival of the internet there has been opportunity for

astrologers in different parts of the world to echange their ideas on the

subject of Vedic astrology .

Here I would like to make a case that research should be something that aims

to illuminate the Vedic tradition not something separate from it .

 

>From what I have seen some writers are strongly advocating research to

evaluate each component of the Vedic astrology paradigm .By emphasising

research over tradition there is a danger that Vedic astrology will be

turned into the mess that is Western astrology .Something will be used

because it works but what works for one person will be different to another

and newcomers will be left with a morass of techniques but no structure .

Useful components may be discarded because they are not readily understood .

 

Nowhere does Parasara say that BPHS is the product of research but rather

that the material is divinely given . It's fairly likely that if Vedic

astrology was the product of someone's efforts then someone would have

claimed credit for it .

 

There are many systems of divination : palmistry,forehead reading ,tea

leaves ,shell throwing,Chinese astrology , Mahabote , tarot cards,the I

ching and so on but the greatest masters have come from Vedic astrology .

That alone is a good reason to keep it intact rather than introducing

foreign material because "it works" and as a by product upsetting the

structure of Vedic astrology .

 

Ultimately in Vedic thought there is a personality behind the Vedas .

Being personal the Veda is inclined to give forth her secrets when she is

venerated not when people take an aloof position .The mentality of taking

without reciprocation is not karmically sound .

 

For those who are becoming confused as to what constitutes the fundamentals

of Vedic astrology I can recommend the books by B V Raman ,J N Bhasin ,

Ramakrishna Batt,Pandit Ojha or K N Rao . Although their methods may be

slightly different they represent a homogeneous standard approach to Vedic

astrology .

 

It is commendable to have come to Vedic astrology and overcome the bogeys of

nihilism ,skepticism and mechanistic world views that are often prevalent

..

 

Below is an excellent article by Wendy Vacisek which courageously addresses

the same issues .The item originally appeared on her list

jyotishvidya and is reproduced here with permission and

gratitude .

 

~

Nicholas

 

 

Dear Members,

 

There's presently a lot of discussion on JyotishVidya and other lists

regarding the Krishnamurti system of astrology. One thing I might say is

that the extensional use of sub-lords to all grahas outside their own dasa

periods is something, I confess, may have some real practical value as well

as being completely in accord with the traditional teachings of the Rishis;

This however I'm unable to state with any certainty at the moment.

 

What puts the whole system down however is the introduction of the Western

(placidus) system of house cusps.

 

I've seen people state that the notion of Vedic astrology as a "Divine

Science" must be opposed at every opportunity. They state that Vedic

astrology will forever be locked in pointless scriptural debates unless it

opens itself to external verifiable testing that only logical experiment can

provide.

 

What the writers of such irreverent nonsense fail to realise is that the

Kundali is an act of Creation. Not only do the divine planets (grahas)

manifest as a new entity (a new creation) at the time of birth, so too the

Rasis (signs of the zodiac) manifest as the Bhavas (houses). When we are

born it's an act of Creation and, when the sign that's rising above the

horizon at the time of birth manifests as the first house, that too is an

act of Creation....the Rasi has BECOME the Bhava.

 

Those who don't get this basic (profound) principle of jyotish and flirt

with the Western system of house division are not practising Vedic astrology

and they should (if they're honest at all) call it something else! Jyotish

(Vedic astrology) originates from the Rig Veda, the oldest of the four

Vedas...to say that Jyotish is not a "Divine Science" is to deny the

divinity of the Vedas.

 

To do this and still call yourself a Vedic astrologer is the greatest

hypocrisy imaginable and I will oppose it for as long as there's a breath

left in my body.

 

Best Wishes,

Wendy

[Guest guest]

Brihat Parashara Hora Shastra is a "Shruti" shastra.

Shruti means that it was orally related to the other

person who listened to it. How it cannot be called a

researched subject is little hard to believe because

anyone (in this case Parashara) who worked on those

principles and found it working only gave in turn

those principles to the listener. Therefore it was a

well researched subject (illuminations included).

 

Modern day research

 

The modern day research, as of today, is actually

trying to relook at those principles in the light of

today's society and re-interpreting them by blending

it to today's society. Those of you who have read

Navagraha Stotra, know that Mars is described there as

"vidyut kanti" (like electric) and Mars is the

significator of electricity. But which areas in

electricity is again now to be reinvestigated and

relocated in today's society. KP system or anyother

system expounded by many is nothing but an extension

of the Parashara legacy only.

 

Astrology : It is very difficult to evolve any system

which works 100% because if any such system existed,

then there is no need for God in the heavens. The God

would have travelled down to earth with 100% system of

prediction. Astrology is a long road, full of

potholes, full of obstructions and often leads one

into unwanted areas of pride and greed. These are the

obstructions put in by god to test the perseverance

and patience of the man practicing astrology.

Therefore, let astrology evolve inside all of us,

albeit slowly and patiently and let it lead us on path

of salvation rather than bringing us back to path of

materialism (bhoga). I am not trying to discredit any

system of astrology but in the name of doing something

new, it hurts to see that many people are in effect

discrediting astrology by pushing forward their wrong

notions as well researched astrological material. In

their books, you would find them contradicting

themselves on different pages.

 

Therefore, I respect Dr. B.V. Raman for keeping

astrology alive and Shri K.N. Rao for giving astrology

a wider and closer to home meaning. His researches

have over 90% of success rates and thats a phenomenal

success rate for anyone living in today's totally

hypocritical and materialistic world.

 

regards,

 

Manoj

 

PS : I dont mean this to be a prelude to any further

discussion on the subject, but on reading this mail,

just thought of penning my thoughts on it. No offence

to anyone.

 

 

 

U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos

http://launch./u2

[Guest guest]

That, for me, was precisely what the doctor ordered: a cocktail of passion and precision!

Thank you!

JIA

In a message dated 11/11/2002 5:33:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, skinbags (AT) optushome (DOT) com.au writes:

Dear Manoj

The following was posted to Wendy and Nicholas in regards to their

statements that the KP system is not a part of Vedic astrology. I too

thought some of their comments were very closed minded and the following

while not meant to upset anybody, was worded strongly as I have a very big

dislike of any form a "Jyotish fundamentalism". I was just going to let

their comments pass but my Jyotish mentor K.N Navaratnam urged me to post a

very strong response in defence of Krishnamurti and his system.

The following will be my last comments on all this. Firstly I would not

consider any chart to be correct based on Rasi chart alone. Also in this

chart, so many planets either sit on a house cusp or very close to one, even

a few minutes of time rectification could alter it very drastically. I give

no reliability to the mothers time to be exact. This is the KP systems

biggest drawback but also its greatest strength. The time must be totally

accurate for it to work clearly. I could not give two hoots for general

broad definitions of a chart, I want to see events seen or foretold very

clearly as given by the chart.

As a general principal you can say things like transit Saturn is in the 8th

house from Moon, so it may be a bad period for you mentally for the next 2

and a half years. Mars Bhukti will be a difficult one for 3 months. This is

just so general!! Most people want to know what is going to happen in the

future and EXACTLY when it will unfold. My goal in astrology is to try to

get events to the EXACT day as shown by either rasi, KP or progressions.

To know a person and their chart and then go back over a chart to justify

technique is one way to learn, but it is actually a flawed science as the

only real true test of skill and technique in astrology is a blind chart and

predictions of events or potential events that might unfold. Krishnamurti

would often make a prediction giving the EXACT day a marriage or death might

take place and in a lot of cases he was totally correct. He was not always

right but he was better than most astrologers.

I mentioned to Pundit today that you say KP is not Vedic astrology and he

was quite amused. He asked me to pose this question to you. "In KP you are

using the 12 signs of the zodiac, you are using the 27 lunar nakshatras, you

are calculating 12 bhavas with correct astronomical calculations. If this is

not practicing Vedic astrology what is???"

In all my posts I have been careful to mention that I consider KP just a

form of putting a chart under a microscope for clarification. In the blind

chart tests on my group, we all have suffered with the dilemma of looking at

the dasha running at an event and trying to figure out exactly how to

clarify the many permutations of what the said planets and houses can

actually bring. This lead me to see how powerful the KP system is at

actually getting down to the nitty gritty of what a planet or house will

indicate.

Firstly, I have shown what I thought was very clear in my chart. Venus,

while exalted in the 2nd house in rashi, is actually a 12th house

significator and activates my Mars/Mercury conjunction that is in the 12th

Bhava via KP. My Venus has brought car accidents and thefts, violence,

hospitalisation and jail. All Mars related events. Now you said Venus is in

the 8th house from Moon in the nakshatra of Mercury the 8th lord and Mercury

is afflicted by Mars in lagna. This has brought bad results for me

physically. This is quite correct generally but the KP system clarifies this

to explain the events are related to the significations of the 12th house.

Under Mars/Rahu/Venus I was in jail but also my feet were so badly inflamed

by plantar fasciaitis I could barely walk. Now this is all functionally 12th

house stuff and inflammation is ruled by Mars. In Rasi I have Saturn and

Ketu in the 12th house so as a GENERAL principal it would indicate feet

trouble. Under KP it indicates it will be severe in Rahu/ Venus Bhuktis or

antars as they are powerful indicators of the 12th house.

Pundit has Saturn in the lagna this shows his general bad health with

diabetes, heart problems and general Vata diseases like constipation and dry

skin. Under KP his Saturn is in the 12th house and by far his biggest

problems are with his feet, he is totally lame and can only shuffle. His

feet are so dry and have sores all over them. (this is a side effect of

diabetes of course).

Sign wise his Saturn is in the sign of Scorpio which relates to the genitals

and he has been impotent since 1970. So both are correct one generally and

one specifically. Another very good example from Pundits chart is the fact

he was born in Scorpio and Mars is in the 7th house in Taurus. As a general

principal this may indicate foreign relocation but otherwise I see little

Taurus in him except physically as shown by the sign as he is short and slow

moving.

Now the KP system gives some very clear and precise evaluations of Pundits

chart. In his rashi chart Mercury is stationary in the 5th house with Uranus

showing his powerful intellect, memory and skill as an astrologer.

Functionally, Mercury rules the 4th house cusp. Mercury is in the nakshatra

of Saturn who is a 12th house occupant. This can show moving to a foreign

country. Under KP Saturn is 4th lord in the 12th house so immigration in old

age is shown as Saturn represents old age.

Now he has Ketu in the lagna in its own nakshatra, Ketu is a powerful

significator of himself. Saturn is a powerful significator of the 12th house

of foreign countries by being in its own nakshatra in the 12th house. When

he ran Ketu/Sat/Sat period he moved to Australia in 1985. Now go back to

rashi and ask me how you can say Ketu/Sat/Sat will bring emigration. Can't.

Another example is the chart of Richard Houck. I just bought a book called

"Eastern Systems for Western Astrologers" and in it he says how he thought

he would live to 84 as his chart had Saturn in the 8th house and this gave

long life. He had also consulted a Nadi reader he said he would live to 84.

(Any comment on this would be superfluous).

Now, without going into great detail, when I found out he had cancer I said

he would die under Jupiter/Moon/Saturn. Saturn in his chart is in the 8th

house in rashi in Cancer. This is a general indication of chronic disease in

the stomach and bowel. Saturn was EXACTLY on a death inflicting Mrityu Bhaga

degree at birth. Now under KP Saturn is in the maraka 7th house as lord of

other maraka, the 2nd. Under KP Saturn was a deadly killer for him. It was

no coincidence Saturn was 2 minutes from an EXACT Mrityu Bhaga degree when

he died.

He died under Jupiter/Moon/Saturn. Lagna lord Jupiter is 10th house karaka

in Scorpio showing high occult knowledge and status in life, but its sub is

death inflicting Saturn. Moon is in lagna as 8th lord and dispositer of

maraka Saturn. Moon is powerful maraka by being in nakshatra of 2nd house

occupant Venus. (Venus is also sub-lord cusp ruler of the lagna in the

maraka 2nd house.) Sub of Moon is Ketu who is also maraka indicator by being

in Saturns nakshatra. Sub of Ketu is Venus who is sub of lagna in maraka 2nd

house. Significators constantly looping back to each other!!

Finally Saturn is DIRE MARAKA in own nakshatra in maraka 7th house. Its sub

is Venus who rules sub of lagna cusp. These influences keep tripping all

over each other as Rahu is powerful indicator of lagna and ruler of 8th

house cusp of longevity.

Rahu is in nakshatra and sub of Moon. Moon is dire maraka by being in

nakshatra of Venus in 2nd house. Moon sub is Ketu of course in nakshatra of

Saturn and sub of Venus. Everyway you at it under KP. Jupiter/Moon/Saturn

period says DEATH.

I could post another 20 examples off the top of my head. Now this leads me

to all this talk of "Jyotish" being a "Divine Science" handed down

psychically that should not be subject to scientific analysis. Firstly

nobody can actually say for sure "jyotish" was "divinely given" This is

EXACTLY the type of thinking that led to mass genocide in the past in the

name of a so called "divinely given" book. In the past we have had crusades

in the name of God fearlessly led by people who felt they had a mandate from

God via the Bible. Non believers were put to the sword and lands stolen in

the name of God. The American Indians were the greatest victims of this type

of thinking.

This "Taliban" mentality is readily seen in the modern world where

fundamentalists have the idea if that you are "not with us, you are

therefore against us" and you should then be eliminated as a "non-believer."

This was a problem with Christianity in the past and ruined any form of free

or scientific thinking. Europe went through centuries of "Dark Ages" where

people were murdered and butchered if they dared to challenge this

fundamentalic religious thinking. Even in my parents generation people were

told by Catholic priests that their children would be born blind if they

married a "non believer." I was told by nuns at primary school not to play

with the children from the state school across the road because they didn't

believe in God. Pundit was told to spit at images of Siva and Ganesh by his

Catholic school teachers. He tells a famous story of being told to spit on a

statue of Ganesh and when he did he was struck down unconscious by some

hidden force.

Now to say we should not study the KP system or even try to understand it

because it is not part of a so called "divine science" smacks of a witch

burning type of mentality where there is a fear some sacred crows might be

slain. I also feel ego comes into it as people do not want to see a better

system appear apart from their own as they then may appear lacking in

knowledge. Richard Houck told me many times his researches and conclusions

fell on deaf ears at the ACVA as they didn't fit in with vested interests

and "wiseman" types who wanted to be seen as the Gods of Vedic astrology in

America.

Pundit said to me today, "to stop trying to improve or evolve your astrology

knowledge would be your greatest mistake." He said I work very traditionally

anyway and progressions and these other techniques were both mentioned and

used by the ancients. The Vimshottari dasha itself is a progression after

all. In the past calculations of the KP chart were very hard and it required

both patience, time and prolific mathematical skill to construct one quickly

and accurately. This I feel is the real reason why it was not used widely.

Another sacred cow that needs slaying is this idea that any old Indian man

person practicing astrology is an exalted Jyotish with "divine skills". Time

doing something does not necessarily equal mastery of a subject. (My golf

game is testimony to that). Doing something correctly for a short time is

much better than doing something wrong for a long time. This will be my last

comments on KP for quite a long while I suspect, I am sick of trying to

justify it or "prove" it to people who will probably never take the time to

investigate it anyway.

Most who condemn the Krishnamurti Padhati readily admit they have not

studied it and don't understand it- yet they condemn it. This is a Saddam or

Osama Bin Laden style of thinking where they hate the U.S passionately -but

have never actually been there. I'm beginning to think these "Al Queda"

style of astrology groups with faceless people endlessly arguing with each

other over "Divine Subjects" is actually a perverse form of egoism rapt up

in a spiritual paper wrapping.

The greatest thing about Hinduism and Buddhism that seperates itself from

Islam and fundamentalist Christianity is its call for self enquiry or

introspection. The teachings of any system of belief should stand or fall on

their merits in expounding cosmic or spiritual truths. Most self-realized

men have said that no philosophy, guru or system of belief should be

accepted unless it can be justified and accepted by your own consciousness.

Now people are saying we should just swallow and parrot everything Parashara

said as the gospel truth without any scrutiny???? Bollocks to

that...........

Andrew

[Guest guest]

Dear Manoj

 

The following was posted to Wendy and Nicholas in regards to their

statements that the KP system is not a part of Vedic astrology. I too

thought some of their comments were very closed minded and the following

while not meant to upset anybody, was worded strongly as I have a very big

dislike of any form a "Jyotish fundamentalism". I was just going to let

their comments pass but my Jyotish mentor K.N Navaratnam urged me to post a

very strong response in defence of Krishnamurti and his system.

 

The following will be my last comments on all this. Firstly I would not

consider any chart to be correct based on Rasi chart alone. Also in this

chart, so many planets either sit on a house cusp or very close to one, even

a few minutes of time rectification could alter it very drastically. I give

no reliability to the mothers time to be exact. This is the KP systems

biggest drawback but also its greatest strength. The time must be totally

accurate for it to work clearly. I could not give two hoots for general

broad definitions of a chart, I want to see events seen or foretold very

clearly as given by the chart.

 

As a general principal you can say things like transit Saturn is in the 8th

house from Moon, so it may be a bad period for you mentally for the next 2

and a half years. Mars Bhukti will be a difficult one for 3 months. This is

just so general!! Most people want to know what is going to happen in the

future and EXACTLY when it will unfold. My goal in astrology is to try to

get events to the EXACT day as shown by either rasi, KP or progressions.

 

To know a person and their chart and then go back over a chart to justify

technique is one way to learn, but it is actually a flawed science as the

only real true test of skill and technique in astrology is a blind chart and

predictions of events or potential events that might unfold. Krishnamurti

would often make a prediction giving the EXACT day a marriage or death might

take place and in a lot of cases he was totally correct. He was not always

right but he was better than most astrologers.

 

I mentioned to Pundit today that you say KP is not Vedic astrology and he

was quite amused. He asked me to pose this question to you. "In KP you are

using the 12 signs of the zodiac, you are using the 27 lunar nakshatras, you

are calculating 12 bhavas with correct astronomical calculations. If this is

not practicing Vedic astrology what is???"

 

In all my posts I have been careful to mention that I consider KP just a

form of putting a chart under a microscope for clarification. In the blind

chart tests on my group, we all have suffered with the dilemma of looking at

the dasha running at an event and trying to figure out exactly how to

clarify the many permutations of what the said planets and houses can

actually bring. This lead me to see how powerful the KP system is at

actually getting down to the nitty gritty of what a planet or house will

indicate.

 

Firstly, I have shown what I thought was very clear in my chart. Venus,

while exalted in the 2nd house in rashi, is actually a 12th house

significator and activates my Mars/Mercury conjunction that is in the 12th

Bhava via KP. My Venus has brought car accidents and thefts, violence,

hospitalisation and jail. All Mars related events. Now you said Venus is in

the 8th house from Moon in the nakshatra of Mercury the 8th lord and Mercury

is afflicted by Mars in lagna. This has brought bad results for me

physically. This is quite correct generally but the KP system clarifies this

to explain the events are related to the significations of the 12th house.

 

Under Mars/Rahu/Venus I was in jail but also my feet were so badly inflamed

by plantar fasciaitis I could barely walk. Now this is all functionally 12th

house stuff and inflammation is ruled by Mars. In Rasi I have Saturn and

Ketu in the 12th house so as a GENERAL principal it would indicate feet

trouble. Under KP it indicates it will be severe in Rahu/ Venus Bhuktis or

antars as they are powerful indicators of the 12th house.

 

Pundit has Saturn in the lagna this shows his general bad health with

diabetes, heart problems and general Vata diseases like constipation and dry

skin. Under KP his Saturn is in the 12th house and by far his biggest

problems are with his feet, he is totally lame and can only shuffle. His

feet are so dry and have sores all over them. (this is a side effect of

diabetes of course).

 

Sign wise his Saturn is in the sign of Scorpio which relates to the genitals

and he has been impotent since 1970. So both are correct one generally and

one specifically. Another very good example from Pundits chart is the fact

he was born in Scorpio and Mars is in the 7th house in Taurus. As a general

principal this may indicate foreign relocation but otherwise I see little

Taurus in him except physically as shown by the sign as he is short and slow

moving.

 

Now the KP system gives some very clear and precise evaluations of Pundits

chart. In his rashi chart Mercury is stationary in the 5th house with Uranus

showing his powerful intellect, memory and skill as an astrologer.

Functionally, Mercury rules the 4th house cusp. Mercury is in the nakshatra

of Saturn who is a 12th house occupant. This can show moving to a foreign

country. Under KP Saturn is 4th lord in the 12th house so immigration in old

age is shown as Saturn represents old age.

 

Now he has Ketu in the lagna in its own nakshatra, Ketu is a powerful

significator of himself. Saturn is a powerful significator of the 12th house

of foreign countries by being in its own nakshatra in the 12th house. When

he ran Ketu/Sat/Sat period he moved to Australia in 1985. Now go back to

rashi and ask me how you can say Ketu/Sat/Sat will bring emigration. Can't.

 

Another example is the chart of Richard Houck. I just bought a book called

"Eastern Systems for Western Astrologers" and in it he says how he thought

he would live to 84 as his chart had Saturn in the 8th house and this gave

long life. He had also consulted a Nadi reader he said he would live to 84.

(Any comment on this would be superfluous).

 

Now, without going into great detail, when I found out he had cancer I said

he would die under Jupiter/Moon/Saturn. Saturn in his chart is in the 8th

house in rashi in Cancer. This is a general indication of chronic disease in

the stomach and bowel. Saturn was EXACTLY on a death inflicting Mrityu Bhaga

degree at birth. Now under KP Saturn is in the maraka 7th house as lord of

other maraka, the 2nd. Under KP Saturn was a deadly killer for him. It was

no coincidence Saturn was 2 minutes from an EXACT Mrityu Bhaga degree when

he died.

 

He died under Jupiter/Moon/Saturn. Lagna lord Jupiter is 10th house karaka

in Scorpio showing high occult knowledge and status in life, but its sub is

death inflicting Saturn. Moon is in lagna as 8th lord and dispositer of

maraka Saturn. Moon is powerful maraka by being in nakshatra of 2nd house

occupant Venus. (Venus is also sub-lord cusp ruler of the lagna in the

maraka 2nd house.) Sub of Moon is Ketu who is also maraka indicator by being

in Saturns nakshatra. Sub of Ketu is Venus who is sub of lagna in maraka 2nd

house. Significators constantly looping back to each other!!

 

Finally Saturn is DIRE MARAKA in own nakshatra in maraka 7th house. Its sub

is Venus who rules sub of lagna cusp. These influences keep tripping all

over each other as Rahu is powerful indicator of lagna and ruler of 8th

house cusp of longevity.

Rahu is in nakshatra and sub of Moon. Moon is dire maraka by being in

nakshatra of Venus in 2nd house. Moon sub is Ketu of course in nakshatra of

Saturn and sub of Venus. Everyway you at it under KP. Jupiter/Moon/Saturn

period says DEATH.

 

I could post another 20 examples off the top of my head. Now this leads me

to all this talk of "Jyotish" being a "Divine Science" handed down

psychically that should not be subject to scientific analysis. Firstly

nobody can actually say for sure "jyotish" was "divinely given" This is

EXACTLY the type of thinking that led to mass genocide in the past in the

name of a so called "divinely given" book. In the past we have had crusades

in the name of God fearlessly led by people who felt they had a mandate from

God via the Bible. Non believers were put to the sword and lands stolen in

the name of God. The American Indians were the greatest victims of this type

of thinking.

 

This "Taliban" mentality is readily seen in the modern world where

fundamentalists have the idea if that you are "not with us, you are

therefore against us" and you should then be eliminated as a "non-believer."

This was a problem with Christianity in the past and ruined any form of free

or scientific thinking. Europe went through centuries of "Dark Ages" where

people were murdered and butchered if they dared to challenge this

fundamentalic religious thinking. Even in my parents generation people were

told by Catholic priests that their children would be born blind if they

married a "non believer." I was told by nuns at primary school not to play

with the children from the state school across the road because they didn't

believe in God. Pundit was told to spit at images of Siva and Ganesh by his

Catholic school teachers. He tells a famous story of being told to spit on a

statue of Ganesh and when he did he was struck down unconscious by some

hidden force.

 

Now to say we should not study the KP system or even try to understand it

because it is not part of a so called "divine science" smacks of a witch

burning type of mentality where there is a fear some sacred crows might be

slain. I also feel ego comes into it as people do not want to see a better

system appear apart from their own as they then may appear lacking in

knowledge. Richard Houck told me many times his researches and conclusions

fell on deaf ears at the ACVA as they didn't fit in with vested interests

and "wiseman" types who wanted to be seen as the Gods of Vedic astrology in

America.

 

Pundit said to me today, "to stop trying to improve or evolve your astrology

knowledge would be your greatest mistake." He said I work very traditionally

anyway and progressions and these other techniques were both mentioned and

used by the ancients. The Vimshottari dasha itself is a progression after

all. In the past calculations of the KP chart were very hard and it required

both patience, time and prolific mathematical skill to construct one quickly

and accurately. This I feel is the real reason why it was not used widely.

 

Another sacred cow that needs slaying is this idea that any old Indian man

person practicing astrology is an exalted Jyotish with "divine skills". Time

doing something does not necessarily equal mastery of a subject. (My golf

game is testimony to that). Doing something correctly for a short time is

much better than doing something wrong for a long time. This will be my last

comments on KP for quite a long while I suspect, I am sick of trying to

justify it or "prove" it to people who will probably never take the time to

investigate it anyway.

 

Most who condemn the Krishnamurti Padhati readily admit they have not

studied it and don't understand it- yet they condemn it. This is a Saddam or

Osama Bin Laden style of thinking where they hate the U.S passionately -but

have never actually been there. I'm beginning to think these "Al Queda"

style of astrology groups with faceless people endlessly arguing with each

other over "Divine Subjects" is actually a perverse form of egoism rapt up

in a spiritual paper wrapping.

 

The greatest thing about Hinduism and Buddhism that seperates itself from

Islam and fundamentalist Christianity is its call for self enquiry or

introspection. The teachings of any system of belief should stand or fall on

their merits in expounding cosmic or spiritual truths. Most self-realized

men have said that no philosophy, guru or system of belief should be

accepted unless it can be justified and accepted by your own consciousness.

Now people are saying we should just swallow and parrot everything Parashara

said as the gospel truth without any scrutiny???? Bollocks to

that...........

 

Andrew

[Guest guest]

You go, girl. I forgot that God abandoned Western astrology and the Western

hermetic and mystical traditions and that they have no validity.

My bad.

You must remember that the Gods (including, if not especially, Krishna) are

tricksters. Revelation can be found in scripture, under a rock, even in a

whorehouse (though whorehouse revelations would appear to be reserved mostly

for fundamentalists who deny the sacred manifestions of shakti kundalini and

the holy human body).

The Jyotir Vidya will continue to reveal her treasures to us and cannot be

limited to scripture because her body is the body of the universe itself.

Scripture is an incredibly powerful reflection of this body. Sage Parashara's

sh** certainly smelled better than mine (as my diet includes italian chocolate

and occasional FD&C Red 6, etc.) But his sh** does not smell better than the

scripture that is life. The only problem with the maverick astrologers like

KSK and Houck is that they perhaps do not kowtow to tradition enough. But

remember that KSK was a fierce devotee of Ganesha. Also recall that many

people assumed his predictions were only the results of his yogic and religious

accomplishments. Likely austerities and siddhi permitted him much of his

knowledge, but he also prevailed upon his readers again and again to consider

that anyone could get his results if they applied the rigor and consistency of

his methods.

To argue that research is not part of the program and part of the vehicle by

which the ishtadevata and/or the Jyotir Vidya enters one's life and inspires

(and reveals truth anew) is to denigrate the potentially divine character of

inspiration and imagination. Astrologers who simply follow Parashara verbatim

without opening themselves to the vast body of resourceful techniques and

approaches that the Jyotir Vidya (as the mother and body of the cosmos itself)

deny the immediacy of Kundalini shakti and the feminine pricipiples of

openness, creativity and love. The possible Puritan counterparts to Jyotish

fundamentalists slaughtered and/or enslaved Native Americans and Africans

because these peoples practiced shakti-kundalini-based, earth-based,

creation-based tradituons that were abhorrent to the conquerers' "Christian" or

"religious" (read :pathologically dualistic) worldview.

Now, many will now assume that I am irreligious or advocate chucking the Vedas

and other sacred sciences and starting anew. Far from it. We simply have to

get to the source of God and revelation. As Allah said to Muhammed, "I am

closer than your jugular vein." Sorry, all my instruments inform me that my

jugular vein is closer to me than the bible, Qu'ran, Dhammapada, paperback copy

of the Rg , etc. Does that mean that I throw these books in the dumpster? Ha!!

These books, in their innermost reaches, when we have removed the literalistic

garments that God would intend for us to remove, are the *main things* that

will remind us how close (S)He is!

Onward with tradition! Onward with the innovations of Drukpa Kunley, who was

able to bring a rainstorm during a drought with one good fart where forty days

of chanting by "pure" Gelugpa monastics couldn't "cut" it.

God requires us to cut farts and also cut down extreme views whereever they may emerge.

Love,

JIA

In a message dated 11/11/2002 12:06:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, jyotish108 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com writes:

To do this and still call yourself a Vedic astrologer is the greatest

hypocrisy imaginable and I will oppose it for as long as there's a breath

left in my body.

Best Wishes,

Wendy

[Guest guest]

I am sorry, I did not know what I would be opening up

by giving those benign thoughts on research. I was not

spurred on but felt the need to do it and did it.

 

Andrew..you would also realise that KP is nothing but

nakshatra based astrology and Parashara is again

nakshatra based. But the problem is the most of the KP

practitioners only call it different and call it

superior to Parashara where it had originated. Perhaps

you are not aware..but just ask your guru/teacher,

does he know from where KP (Krishnamoorthy) got this

method of prediction. I want to know that.

 

Manoj

 

 

 

U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos

http://launch./u2

[Guest guest]

Dear Manoj

 

If I remember correctly Pundit said Krishnamurti got most of his ideas from

a man called Raja Gopalla Iyer who was a Brahmin scholar and mentor of

Seshadri Iyer. The Ayanamsha he used was said to have been calculated by C.G

Rajan who was another scholar and mathematician. Iyer made big use of yogi

point and ava yogi while Krishnamurti never mentioned it.

 

Pundit was saying this form a stellar astrology was used by Iyer and others

but Krishnamurti was a very ambitious man for a bit of glory so promoted it

as all his own ideas. This of course pissed off a lot of people and Pundit

feels this is more likey why people have bagged his system. Krishnamurti

took a lot of the glory and credit without giving any respect or credit to

those who had taught him.

 

Mind you I think he also spent a lot of time with people who knew western

astrology and I know a lot of his comments on outer planets and stuff was

copied straight from the A to Z Horoscope maker by Lewellyn George.

 

Real factual information about all these people is hard to find. Myths and

legends have grown around a lot of old guys who had fulltime jobs and wrote

a few astrology books in their spare time. Seshadri Iyer was a mathematician

but actually worked as a stenographer in Court. Krishnamurti I know was

known as a chronic skirt chaser. Pundit says he was infamous for this even

as an old guy.

 

He was born in Capricorn with Mars and Venus conjunct in 8th house after

all. Most of these people worked all their lives and only became well known

astrologers after they retired and had more time to write and practice.

Pundit is a good example of this although he did have a thriving business in

Sri Lanka doing charts for Americans. I have an astrological mag here from

1975 with his full page ad in it. He says that add reaped him a harvest of

American clients.

 

Apart from that I know about as much as is written on the flap of their

books LOL. Pundit suggests in the old days anybody with any real skill was

reluctant to teach anybody their secrets as it was their living after all.

Why teach somebody who will end up as a business rival??

 

Andrew

[Guest guest]

I notice you quote my message but do not respond to any of my points or

acknowledge the message. I will therefore sign off as Et Al. (you can call me

Al!)

The KP focus on house cusps will in the end boil down to the issue of nakshatra

dispositors and subs, which you may perhaps reject but which research (cursed

research) will bear out as relevant. On this note, an excellent apologetics

piece on KP by Sat Siri Khalsa can be found at

<http://www.Vedic Astrology.org/krishnamurti.htm>.

Now, I concede, invoking the universally mystic number 12 vis-à-vis kalapurusha

isn't a bad method. No problem. But then, what do you do with the numbers 27

and 28? Are they not relevant or related to "revealed" knowledge? The fact is

that nakshatra-driven analysis can be an excellent counterpoint to rashi-based

readings.

Your search for, in your words, a deeper understanding actually reveal some even

deeper desire to wrestle with the riches of nakshatra-driven Jyotisha, a desire

I share. This I recognize subtly or even "psychically" by your reference to

Nadi Jyotish. I am aware that Nadi analysis relies heavily on the intricacies

of nakshatras, as does KP. But what evidence can you adduce to support your

enthusiastic allegation that KSK "stole the system, he calls his own, from some

Nadis". Can you reveal your reasoning without 1) thoroughly exploring both Nadi

Jyotish and KP; or 2) if you are a Nadi initiate (in which case, forgive my

first assumption) --*revealing* the secrets of the Nadi tradition?

Clearly, the plot thickens.

Respectfully,

J.I. Abbot

Member, Et Al. Jyotisha Fellowship

It sIn a message dated 11/11/2002 11:48:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, vishnu (AT) lbq (DOT) dk writes:

Dear Nick, Wendy, et. al.

Wendy's brave message on cusps and Krishamurty, is worth understanding abit deeper.

Limbs of Kalapurusha:

Fact is that the 12 limbs of the kalapurusha constitute the fact that we are all

expansions of God. We cannot change these limbs, and these divisions change from

animal, insect, etc, yet the 12 limbs are still the same.

Introducing cusps on the basis of the Rising sign, breaks this principle and we

are no longer looking at the limbs of the physical body, but a body beyond that

of the physical. This is the basis of calculating a special bhava chart on the

basis of the BHAVA LAGNA.. Not any other lagna.

As for Krishnamurty, I don't support a person who critisizes his Gurus or the

Rishis, as this is the first step in the degredation of knowledge. Krishnamurty

infact stole the system, he calls his own, from some Nadis, in his frustration

towards the ancient paramparas at the time who were hiding the knowledge.

As the system exists, the basis of using it, then becomes a question, and the

exact intricacies also becomes important. No doubt the system works, but why

and how it works should also be understood.

Best wishes

Visti

[Guest guest]

I want to comment on the "Holy Cow" aspects of this discussion, as they are

a big part of my life, where I have much experience as one who has tried to

really follow the priest class in both western and various eastern lineages,

and having recently studied Celts, encountered another divine priest-craft

class. I have "served faithfully" the "teachings of" various Gurus

including Parashara Muni, and have received much for doing so, on various

levels, and have suffered too.

 

When one takes a strong stand, say disclaiming the divine status of

revelation, then one puts oneself into peril in some ways. There are

people, many, who directly live off that conception, of fully believing in

the divine status of revelation, and when you meet the best of these people,

they are unshakeable. That conception works for them fully. I'm thinking of

Vaisnavas I know in Bengal for example. They believe and argue nicely the

case for full acceptance of revelation. They are the only people I know who

always and fully control their senses, though I'm sure there are others on

Earth in other lineages I'm not personally in contact with.

 

The person who is chiefly arguing against revelation in this particular

discussion on this list has also informed us of his many difficulties in

life which stem from things like hot nature, something which is not found in

the religious and sense controlled very much. So, we are talking two

different doshas here, two different needs.

 

I have spent very sweet times in my life under the instruction of the

priestly class of Vaisnavism, namely say Sridhar Maharaj, my Diksha Guru,

the Godbrother of Prabhupada, at his ashrams in Bengal, California and

London England, back in the early 80's. This was very real, and can be real,

in an ongoing way, for those who are capable of staying in it. They have no

need of, and do not consult, astrology, of any type. They are on the

platform of surrendered service to God, which precludes needing any worry

about personality or future.

 

The same can be said of other traditions that I've studied, including

Catholic. There is no need of astrology, no care for it, and no use of it,

and these are real people, with real emotions, real ideas about how they

believe and live life, and they are valid, and often, they are very happy

and satisfied, and at times, I've been one of them.

 

In that place, you do not mix things with your lineage's teachings (at least

in Vaisnavism surely), and you do not doubt the wisdom of past acarayas like

Parashara, and you do not think that Western inventiveness and science can

help you, rather, it is usually at odds, usually the enemy in many ways,

unless it confirms.

 

True, wars have been fought over fundamentalistic values, and many millions

of people have been slain on Earth for non-adherence to one leaders values.

No argument. I'm not defending fundamentalism on that ground, but the

points above are still true.

 

Next however, I have another side, another experience, and want to tell it

too.

 

That is, to stand up for what Andrew's point about fundamentalism speaks to

us plainly:

 

Untested, holy cows, can cause ruination in many lives. This too, is true.

 

In mywords, I like to say it that "I hate Priest-Craft"

 

Priest Craft to me means: "You set yourself up as holy, keep others in check

with threats coming from your belief and "knowledge", and thus control them,

who are supersticious and fearful of things like Divine Expulsion from some

unseen paradise, and so you tag along with the priest, having succumbed to

his priest craft. He then sells you things from his craft, yagyas,

sacrifices, etc., and you and your descendents go on in fear, getting

nothing real or tangible".

 

Ireland is a grand example of the effects of this- as the Celts are by

nature very faithful to their beliefs, both before and after Christianity.

Ireland is a stronghold of Catholicism, hard to compare to any other. This

comes from the strong Celtic base, which was utterly adherent to the Druids

who were VERY similar to Brahmins in India.

 

Brahmins, hold India in check, in many ways, just as the Druids did. Still

to this day.

 

Recently one Hare Krishna devotee said to me when I told him he could call

me Roik McCay or Raghunandan das:

 

"I prefer to call you Raghunandan das because it has no material connection

whatsoever"

 

In saying this, he's saying, my Gaelic name is materially connected,

something dirty, as compared to, my Hindu name, which to him is pure.

 

To me, this is one tradition fighting another, and that's all. I no longer

see Raghunandan as more divine than Roik McCay. The aspirations of both

cultures are basically identical. I agree India has more, I can say that.

Yes, it has alot. It is the mother load. Cool, however, to say one thing is

"Sacred" while another thing, say a name, is "Not sacred", is EXTREMELY

DANGEROUS.

 

That's Andrew's point, and I agree.

 

In my example about my name, basically, the person is saying that one must

cut themself off from all past heritage, and identify with a Sanskrit name,

in order to have the higher taste in life right now. This means that all

people without Sanskrit names cannot have the higher taste right now, and

this to me is not correct. (I'm avoiding saying it's hogwash etc) to keep

things up a bit.

 

I have found through my searches into different moods of worship, and by

researching my past, and various things, that sincerity is one, that is

found inside us, and that it is not culturally based, including not based in

Sanskrit per se.

 

Now Sanskrit and Vedic culture is really very aligned with the one purity.

It has ALOT. No doubt.

 

But the experience of "reality" in spirit, of sincerity, is personal, and

not confined to one culture, one language, etc.

 

No amount of Sankrit books in your apartment will save you, or make you

happy. You can play the CD's all day, read the books, even chant, and still

be full of desires, still be full of the potential for criminal activity,

still be full of lust, etc. Nothing can save you, but you, nothing can

straighten your desires, but you. Ultimately you must go through the eye of

the needle. You, not language, not your Guru, not your connects, not your

money, just you. It doesn't matter how you phrase words in your head, as

Hindu or English, but you must know what is true, you must know what is

sincerity of alignment for your soul with the creators/creative.

 

So I am saying, there is holy books, holy words, holy cows, of many types,

in Sanskrit culture and other cultures, if that serves you. If that is your

reality, then that's real. Nobody else can interfere, and should not, at

least in your own mind of devotion.

 

On the other hand, the general world would do well to watch carefully for

being misled by those in the priest craft. It's a matter of two different

vantage points, differing needs, differing places in spiritual development.

 

I have cried and cried because of the pain caused to me by the priest craft,

and those inside it, espousing holy cows, and ruining my life with their

words. Yes, I have serious anger if I want to "go there" to that anger, and

see it, feel it, recognize it. I can write volumes on "those jerks" (much

stronger words felt, avoided here).

 

On the other hand, I have had some of my most profound days in the

protective embrace of total surrender. If we discount total surrender to a

tradition as valid, we suddenly come to great odds with MANY cultures which

were isolated, and lived in totality of one mind, for very long periods of

time, many thousands of years.

 

To take a strong stand on this debate one way or the other is historically

foolish, and shows that one hasn't enough experience on both sides of the

fence. In these modern times, blind acceptance of ancient books archaeic

tenets is not likely to be widely accepted or acceptable, so if we care

about the masses, as I do, then we have to consider that.

 

At the same time, the masses do not dictate reality, in general, they piss

on it, in my opinion, at least higher, real, truths, that, they seem to care

little for, and go along with the illusion fully, which however, is itself

therefore, a divine reality, so in the flip flop of mind, the two sides of

this argument are both very real, that's my point.

 

The fact that KP was a skirt chaser, in a way, shows his passion, which pegs

him as at odds with general Hindu authorities, and so the wake of his work

is this argument, and we all know, who have read him, that he was very fond

of putting down traditional Vedic astrology VERY strongly, in no uncertain

terms. So, hence, this argument follows his work, which is a putting

together of a few standard though less discussed Nakshatra techniques, with

a Western house system. These two techniques are both more "exact" than what

is used alot, and hence end up causing sometimes exact hits, which can also

be had other ways. I have had exact hits in my work, using non-kp

techniques, but using exact parts of the science otherwise.

 

Speaking from this central chair I occupy, I can assert that very often you

hear the word "he was exactly correct to the day" when people tell you of

their dealings with their (various) KP astrologers (always from India). The

point is, they get alot of hits, whereas you don't hear this AS MUCH from

other people. KP seems to work. This I am relating without alteration. It

just seems to work quite exactly.

 

But I think it's because they labor towards exactness, and use the

Nakshatras, which are very powerful, I've found, from many experiences, not

just KP ones. Also, using house cusps is very powerful, but which one's are

best, that's a discussion. Remember, the four main KP bhava sandhis, are the

four main madhyas of the Sripati system, identically, and others house cusps

will be very close in most charts, with the KP Sandhis often matching the

madhyas of the two standard Vedic systems. (Programmers privelage, but

anyone can see these things using their eyes and brain). Version 3 will

allow all kinds of lines visually, and it makes it more clear.

 

So taking the sub lords of house madhyas and sandhis in any system, and

using exact transit moments, is a very interesting study, and doesn't really

belong to Krishnamurti himself, though he did put his name on it.

 

Those who try to "take down" the priest class are seen as ruining the faith

in God of many. This is why the likes of KP and Rick Houck often find they

are not accepted in religious communities, because their ways, their

cavalier natures, their "scientific" self proclaimed credentials, are all of

a mood which is not based in devotion, surrender, and submission, to God.

Many people want to live lives of bhakti, to varying degrees, and they avoid

these kinds of mavericks, seeing them as anti-spiritual life, plainly. I

understand this. These persons are threats to the peace of the Garden of

Eden so to speak. They are of the wandering mind. They are of the

speculative, empirical, anti-God, anti-revelation. The staunchly religious

will never accept this mood.

 

On the other hand, they are the protectors of those outside the traditions,

perhaps, causing the traditions to actually "produce tangible goods" or

"take a hike", which is also a laudable idea on it's own, for those whom it

serves, and I understand that position QUITE well as well.

 

But I really understand both, and when one is in an utter spiritual crisis,

you cannot pray to Rick Houck or Krishnamurti the angry skirt chaser. You

pray to Krishna, Parashara perhaps, etc. You pray to Gurus who adhere, you

pray to priests who adhere, and when dieing, you would never pray to

science, or logic, for help.

 

It's important to remember both sides of life, when proceeding along these

lines.

 

I note that both Andrew and his mentor have serious disabilitiesm, as per

Andrew's own words, and this too speaks. In all ancient cultures, it was

considered an impossibility for such disabled persons to be accepted as

leaders. Interesting point. Were the ancient cultures simply foolish and

wrong? Or is there something to the idea that disease is a sign of problems

of character as well?

 

Life is complex. Strong positions are dangerous.

 

These are my thoughts based on my life experience and training. But mostly,

this is directly experience. I am both a follower, and doubter, both. I have

two eyes, one is bowing, the other is careful for trickery born of the needs

of the priests to keep the gravy train rolling, and their own fears, wherein

they use others to make their misery more populated. I've done that myself.

I have not achieved happiness from it. But the baby is in the bath water, so

be careful when tossing.

 

 

Das Goravani, President

 

2852 Willamette St, #353

Eugene, OR, 97405, USA-America

Voice: or in America

fax: 541-343-0344

 

 

http://www.DancingMoonInc.com

[Guest guest]

I appreciate the message, but you again seem to miss some of my points. I only

identify Nadi jyotish as a specific tradition within Jyotish, just as we also

speak legitimately of Jaimini Jyotish, Tajika Jyotish. Tantric Jyotish, etc.

(See deFouw and Svoboda 1996 [_LOL_] pp. 14-19). I know that certain orthodox

segments like to make short shrift of traceable historical developments, but,

well, c'mon.

You must see that it's a little dodgy to extol the accomplishments of the superb

jyotishi Sat Siri Khalsa (we agree on this part) and yet not acknowledge her

role as one of the most articulate advocates of KP living today. Of course KP

is not her only area of expertise, but she's *unequivocally* a supporter and

defender of this system.

That make the diplomatic communications a little tricky, doesn't it?

Do you see that when you accuse one of the most consistently accurate jyotishis

of the 20th century of *stealing* his life's work from elsewhere, that is a

most serious allegation? In that one claim you also, perhaps unwittingly,

malign all those who value and continue KSK's work, Sat Siri included. When

you make an allegation, you must defend and support it with real evidence.

This was the second time today you specifically avoided distinct queries and

points I made.

Fundamentalist agendas drive so much pain, suffering and war in our world.

Jyotisha is the technology of sacred light, and should not be obscured by this

kind of sycophancy.

Anyone who knows the history of the world outside the Indian subcontinent will

also see that the Hellenistic and Indian world were both the subject and object

of cross-fertilization. Jyotish is no exception to this. The obvious presence

of astrological references in the Rg Veda does not obviate or preclude

meaningful exchanges. The greatness of Vedic thought can withstand this. To

suggest otherwise suggests a poverty of faith, intellectual rigor and

historical perspective.

Apart from these points, which I cannot underscore enough, thank you for your

otherwise rich post on the architecture of solar and lunar dimensions.

Respectfully,

J.I. Abbot

In a message dated 11/11/2002 1:29:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, vishnu (AT) lbq (DOT) dk writes:

As for nadis. It would be wrong to differentiate Nadis from what is known today

as Vedic-Astrology. I have some slokas from Chandra Kala Nadi and Bhrigu Nadi,

which speak about Arudha Padas, about Astakavarga, basic Gochara, and all such

things that MahaRishi Parasara talked about. So wheres the difference?... the

reader.

Best wishes

Visti

[Guest guest]

Om Jum Sah. Vyam Vyaasadevaaya Namah. Sah Jum Om

Dear Nick, Wendy, et. al.

Wendy's brave message on cusps and Krishamurty, is worth understanding abit deeper.

 

Limbs of Kalapurusha:

Fact is that the 12 limbs of the kalapurusha constitute the fact that we are all

expansions of God. We cannot change these limbs, and these divisions change from

animal, insect, etc, yet the 12 limbs are still the same.

 

Introducing cusps on the basis of the Rising sign, breaks this principle and we

are no longer looking at the limbs of the physical body, but a body beyond that

of the physical. This is the basis of calculating a special bhava chart on the

basis of the BHAVA LAGNA.. Not any other lagna.

 

 

As for Krishnamurty, I don't support a person who critisizes his Gurus or the

Rishis, as this is the first step in the degredation of knowledge. Krishnamurty

infact stole the system, he calls his own, from some Nadis, in his frustration

towards the ancient paramparas at the time who were hiding the knowledge.

 

As the system exists, the basis of using it, then becomes a question, and the

exact intricacies also becomes important. No doubt the system works, but why

and how it works should also be understood.

 

Best wishesVisti---Bhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgBrihat

Parasara Hora Shastra:

vedic astrologybphs.zipiTRANS 99 Font:

http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org/Sanskrit/Itranslt.html

-

Jiabbot (AT) cs (DOT) com

gjlist

Monday, November 11, 2002 4:48 PM

Re: [GJ] Research and tradition

Dear Wendy,You go, girl. I forgot that God abandoned Western astrology and the

Western hermetic and mystical traditions and that they have no validity.My

bad.You must remember that the Gods (including, if not especially, Krishna) are

tricksters. Revelation can be found in scripture, under a rock, even in a

whorehouse (though whorehouse revelations would appear to be reserved mostly

for fundamentalists who deny the sacred manifestions of shakti kundalini and

the holy human body).The Jyotir Vidya will continue to reveal her treasures to

us and cannot be limited to scripture because her body is the body of the

universe itself. Scripture is an incredibly powerful reflection of this body.

Sage Parashara's sh** certainly smelled better than mine (as my diet includes

italian chocolate and occasional FD&C Red 6, etc.) But his sh** does not smell

better than the scripture that is life. The only problem with the maverick

astrologers like KSK and Houck is that they perhaps do not kowtow to tradition

enough. But remember that KSK was a fierce devotee of Ganesha. Also recall

that many people assumed his predictions were only the results of his yogic and

religious accomplishments. Likely austerities and siddhi permitted him much of

his knowledge, but he also prevailed upon his readers again and again to

consider that anyone could get his results if they applied the rigor and

consistency of his methods.To argue that research is not part of the program

and part of the vehicle by which the ishtadevata and/or the Jyotir Vidya enters

one's life and inspires (and reveals truth anew) is to denigrate the potentially

divine character of inspiration and imagination. Astrologers who simply follow

Parashara verbatim without opening themselves to the vast body of resourceful

techniques and approaches that the Jyotir Vidya (as the mother and body of the

cosmos itself) deny the immediacy of Kundalini shakti and the feminine

pricipiples of openness, creativity and love. The possible Puritan

counterparts to Jyotish fundamentalists slaughtered and/or enslaved Native

Americans and Africans because these peoples practiced shakti-kundalini-based,

earth-based, creation-based tradituons that were abhorrent to the conquerers'

"Christian" or "religious" (read :pathologically dualistic) worldview.Now, many

will now assume that I am irreligious or advocate chucking the Vedas and other

sacred sciences and starting anew. Far from it. We simply have to get to the

source of God and revelation. As Allah said to Muhammed, "I am closer than

your jugular vein." Sorry, all my instruments inform me that my jugular vein

is closer to me than the bible, Qu'ran, Dhammapada, paperback copy of the Rg ,

etc. Does that mean that I throw these books in the dumpster? Ha!! These

books, in their innermost reaches, when we have removed the literalistic

garments that God would intend for us to remove, are the *main things* that

will remind us how close (S)He is!Onward with tradition! Onward with the

innovations of Drukpa Kunley, who was able to bring a rainstorm during a

drought with one good fart where forty days of chanting by "pure" Gelugpa

monastics couldn't "cut" it.God requires us to cut farts and also cut down

extreme views whereever they may emerge. Love,JIAIn a message dated 11/11/2002

12:06:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, jyotish108 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com writes:

To do this and still call yourself a Vedic astrologer is the greatesthypocrisy

imaginable and I will oppose it for as long as there's a breathleft in my

body.Best Wishes,WendyOm Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat SatTo

, send an email to:

gjlist-http://www.goravani.comYour use of

is subject to the

[Guest guest]

Om Jum Sah. Vyam Vyaasadevaaya Namah. Sah Jum Om

Dear Al,

Sat Siri Guru, is an excellent Jyotishi, and has done alot of work in

Nakshetras, much deeper than all this lordship and sub-lordship stuff,

realising the one-sidedness of only Vimshottari-lordships of the Nakshetras.

 

The Nakshetras are the abode of the Moon as the Rasis are the abode of the Sun,

this should first be born in mind.

 

As the Sun represents the Dwadasa-Aditya, namely the 12 Sunsigns, it comes under

the 33 prime deva, as the givers of ALL material things in this world. To time

these events of giving, we use dasa's where the length of 1 year is that of the

Suns exact transit.

 

Now among the 33 prime deva, the Nakshetras comes under the 8 Vasu's. The 8

vasus make up our constitution, which are:

The 5 Elements; Earth, Water, Fire, Air and Vacuum.

The Soul/vitality(Sun), Mind/sustenance(Moon), and Nakshetras.

 

If you do the numbers, i've described 20 of the 33 deva.

 

Now this shows that the Nakshetras are important in understanding our lives, and

shouldn't be avoided in prediction.

 

 

Alone from this understanding how can i avoid their usage? Being that the Moon

shows the Manas, and the Nakshetras are the abode of the same, we may infer

that they show the sustenance, and fortune derived from various parts of our

lives, whilst the Sun-signs shows the begining of these areas.

So both are very important.

 

As for nadis. It would be wrong to differentiate Nadis from what is known today

as Vedic-Astrology. I have some slokas from Chandra Kala Nadi and Bhrigu Nadi,

which speak about Arudha Padas, about Astakavarga, basic Gochara, and all such

things that MahaRishi Parasara talked about. So wheres the difference?... the

reader.

 

Best wishesVisti---Bhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgBrihat

Parasara Hora Shastra:

vedic astrologybphs.zipiTRANS 99 Font:

http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org/Sanskrit/Itranslt.html

-

Jiabbot (AT) cs (DOT) com

gjlist

Monday, November 11, 2002 6:56 PM

Re: [GJ] Research and tradition

Dear Visti,I notice you quote my message but do not respond to any of my points

or acknowledge the message. I will therefore sign off as Et Al. (you can call

me Al!)The KP focus on house cusps will in the end boil down to the issue of

nakshatra dispositors and subs, which you may perhaps reject but which research

(cursed research) will bear out as relevant. On this note, an excellent

apologetics piece on KP by Sat Siri Khalsa can be found at

<http://www.Vedic Astrology.org/krishnamurti.htm>.Now, I concede, invoking the

universally mystic number 12 vis-à-vis kalapurusha isn't a bad method. No

problem. But then, what do you do with the numbers 27 and 28? Are they not

relevant or related to "revealed" knowledge? The fact is that nakshatra-driven

analysis can be an excellent counterpoint to rashi-based readings.Your search

for, in your words, a deeper understanding actually reveal some even deeper

desire to wrestle with the riches of nakshatra-driven Jyotisha, a desire I

share. This I recognize subtly or even "psychically" by your reference to Nadi

Jyotish. I am aware that Nadi analysis relies heavily on the intricacies of

nakshatras, as does KP. But what evidence can you adduce to support your

enthusiastic allegation that KSK "stole the system, he calls his own, from some

Nadis". Can you reveal your reasoning without 1) thoroughly exploring both Nadi

Jyotish and KP; or 2) if you are a Nadi initiate (in which case, forgive my

first assumption) --*revealing* the secrets of the Nadi tradition? Clearly, the

plot thickens.Respectfully,J.I. AbbotMember, Et Al. Jyotisha FellowshipIt sIn a

message dated 11/11/2002 11:48:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, vishnu (AT) lbq (DOT) dk

writes:

Dear Nick, Wendy, et. al.Wendy's brave message on cusps and Krishamurty, is

worth understanding abit deeper. Limbs of Kalapurusha:Fact is that the 12

limbs of the kalapurusha constitute the fact that we are all expansions of God.

We cannot change these limbs, and these divisions change from animal, insect,

etc, yet the 12 limbs are still the same. Introducing cusps on the basis of the

Rising sign, breaks this principle and we are no longer looking at the limbs of

the physical body, but a body beyond that of the physical. This is the basis of

calculating a special bhava chart on the basis of the BHAVA LAGNA.. Not any

other lagna. As for Krishnamurty, I don't support a person who critisizes

his Gurus or the Rishis, as this is the first step in the degredation of

knowledge. Krishnamurty infact stole the system, he calls his own, from some

Nadis, in his frustration towards the ancient paramparas at the time who were

hiding the knowledge. As the system exists, the basis of using it, then

becomes a question, and the exact intricacies also becomes important. No doubt

the system works, but why and how it works should also be understood. Best

wishesVistiOm Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat SatTo

, send an email to:

gjlist-http://www.goravani.comYour use of

is subject to the

[Guest guest]

Fellow jyotishis,

 

I'm trying to wonder what the crux of the problem is. For those on the side of

the "divine science", I guess it is a bit like trademark infringement: they

object to some astrologers claiming to do vedic astrology but who, in their

eyes, are straying from the the tenets of the received wisdom, as outlined in a

short list of classical texts. For those on the "experimental" side of the

debate, (I'm on this side BTW) it's the inability to actually have a logical

discussion about certain techniques or ideas in the horoscope. Really, it's not

that big a deal. I already accept the fact that I can't discuss some things in

a chart with certain people. It's a shame, but that's just the way it is. For

those on the other side, though, the insult to their bnotion of "Vedic" may be

more than just annoying. I can't fully imagine what this feels like, but I

think one still is obliged to live in a wider world in which there are many

different ideas.

 

This is a topic in which there can be no agreement. But that reminds me that

even amongst devout Hindus, all working within strict Vedic astrological

traditions, there will be no agreement when it comes to chart analysis. There

is a famous quote somewhere in the old texts to that effect. So it isn't a

question of disagreement that irks those on the 'divine science/received wisdom'

side of the debate. It's more about faith.

 

Since I am not a Hindu, I don't study Hindu astrology out of faith. I only

study it because it seems to give good results. To me, that is the only reason

to use a particular approach. Since my clients also aren't Hindus, results are

the only thing they are interested in as well.

 

best wishes,

 

Chris

 

----------

> Andrew Lynn <skinbags

> gjlist

> Re: [GJ] Research and tradition

> Monday, November 11, 2002 5:37 AM

>

> Dear Manoj

>

> The following was posted to Wendy and Nicholas in regards to their

> statements that the KP system is not a part of Vedic astrology. I too

> thought some of their comments were very closed minded and the following

> while not meant to upset anybody, was worded strongly as I have a very big

> dislike of any form a "Jyotish fundamentalism". I was just going to let

> their comments pass but my Jyotish mentor K.N Navaratnam urged me to post a

> very strong response in defence of Krishnamurti and his system.

>

> The following will be my last comments on all this. Firstly I would not

> consider any chart to be correct based on Rasi chart alone. Also in this

> chart, so many planets either sit on a house cusp or very close to one, even

> a few minutes of time rectification could alter it very drastically. I give

> no reliability to the mothers time to be exact. This is the KP systems

> biggest drawback but also its greatest strength. The time must be totally

> accurate for it to work clearly. I could not give two hoots for general

> broad definitions of a chart, I want to see events seen or foretold very

> clearly as given by the chart.

>

> As a general principal you can say things like transit Saturn is in the 8th

> house from Moon, so it may be a bad period for you mentally for the next 2

> and a half years. Mars Bhukti will be a difficult one for 3 months. This is

> just so general!! Most people want to know what is going to happen in the

> future and EXACTLY when it will unfold. My goal in astrology is to try to

> get events to the EXACT day as shown by either rasi, KP or progressions.

>

> To know a person and their chart and then go back over a chart to justify

> technique is one way to learn, but it is actually a flawed science as the

> only real true test of skill and technique in astrology is a blind chart and

> predictions of events or potential events that might unfold. Krishnamurti

> would often make a prediction giving the EXACT day a marriage or death might

> take place and in a lot of cases he was totally correct. He was not always

> right but he was better than most astrologers.

>

> I mentioned to Pundit today that you say KP is not Vedic astrology and he

> was quite amused. He asked me to pose this question to you. "In KP you are

> using the 12 signs of the zodiac, you are using the 27 lunar nakshatras, you

> are calculating 12 bhavas with correct astronomical calculations. If this is

> not practicing Vedic astrology what is???"

>

> In all my posts I have been careful to mention that I consider KP just a

> form of putting a chart under a microscope for clarification. In the blind

> chart tests on my group, we all have suffered with the dilemma of looking at

> the dasha running at an event and trying to figure out exactly how to

> clarify the many permutations of what the said planets and houses can

> actually bring. This lead me to see how powerful the KP system is at

> actually getting down to the nitty gritty of what a planet or house will

> indicate.

>

> Firstly, I have shown what I thought was very clear in my chart. Venus,

> while exalted in the 2nd house in rashi, is actually a 12th house

> significator and activates my Mars/Mercury conjunction that is in the 12th

> Bhava via KP. My Venus has brought car accidents and thefts, violence,

> hospitalisation and jail. All Mars related events. Now you said Venus is in

> the 8th house from Moon in the nakshatra of Mercury the 8th lord and Mercury

> is afflicted by Mars in lagna. This has brought bad results for me

> physically. This is quite correct generally but the KP system clarifies this

> to explain the events are related to the significations of the 12th house.

>

> Under Mars/Rahu/Venus I was in jail but also my feet were so badly inflamed

> by plantar fasciaitis I could barely walk. Now this is all functionally 12th

> house stuff and inflammation is ruled by Mars. In Rasi I have Saturn and

> Ketu in the 12th house so as a GENERAL principal it would indicate feet

> trouble. Under KP it indicates it will be severe in Rahu/ Venus Bhuktis or

> antars as they are powerful indicators of the 12th house.

>

> Pundit has Saturn in the lagna this shows his general bad health with

> diabetes, heart problems and general Vata diseases like constipation and dry

> skin. Under KP his Saturn is in the 12th house and by far his biggest

> problems are with his feet, he is totally lame and can only shuffle. His

> feet are so dry and have sores all over them. (this is a side effect of

> diabetes of course).

>

> Sign wise his Saturn is in the sign of Scorpio which relates to the genitals

> and he has been impotent since 1970. So both are correct one generally and

> one specifically. Another very good example from Pundits chart is the fact

> he was born in Scorpio and Mars is in the 7th house in Taurus. As a general

> principal this may indicate foreign relocation but otherwise I see little

> Taurus in him except physically as shown by the sign as he is short and slow

> moving.

>

> Now the KP system gives some very clear and precise evaluations of Pundits

> chart. In his rashi chart Mercury is stationary in the 5th house with Uranus

> showing his powerful intellect, memory and skill as an astrologer.

> Functionally, Mercury rules the 4th house cusp. Mercury is in the nakshatra

> of Saturn who is a 12th house occupant. This can show moving to a foreign

> country. Under KP Saturn is 4th lord in the 12th house so immigration in old

> age is shown as Saturn represents old age.

>

> Now he has Ketu in the lagna in its own nakshatra, Ketu is a powerful

> significator of himself. Saturn is a powerful significator of the 12th house

> of foreign countries by being in its own nakshatra in the 12th house. When

> he ran Ketu/Sat/Sat period he moved to Australia in 1985. Now go back to

> rashi and ask me how you can say Ketu/Sat/Sat will bring emigration. Can't.

>

> Another example is the chart of Richard Houck. I just bought a book called

> "Eastern Systems for Western Astrologers" and in it he says how he thought

> he would live to 84 as his chart had Saturn in the 8th house and this gave

> long life. He had also consulted a Nadi reader he said he would live to 84.

> (Any comment on this would be superfluous).

>

> Now, without going into great detail, when I found out he had cancer I said

> he would die under Jupiter/Moon/Saturn. Saturn in his chart is in the 8th

> house in rashi in Cancer. This is a general indication of chronic disease in

> the stomach and bowel. Saturn was EXACTLY on a death inflicting Mrityu Bhaga

> degree at birth. Now under KP Saturn is in the maraka 7th house as lord of

> other maraka, the 2nd. Under KP Saturn was a deadly killer for him. It was

> no coincidence Saturn was 2 minutes from an EXACT Mrityu Bhaga degree when

> he died.

>

> He died under Jupiter/Moon/Saturn. Lagna lord Jupiter is 10th house karaka

> in Scorpio showing high occult knowledge and status in life, but its sub is

> death inflicting Saturn. Moon is in lagna as 8th lord and dispositer of

> maraka Saturn. Moon is powerful maraka by being in nakshatra of 2nd house

> occupant Venus. (Venus is also sub-lord cusp ruler of the lagna in the

> maraka 2nd house.) Sub of Moon is Ketu who is also maraka indicator by being

> in Saturns nakshatra. Sub of Ketu is Venus who is sub of lagna in maraka 2nd

> house. Significators constantly looping back to each other!!

>

> Finally Saturn is DIRE MARAKA in own nakshatra in maraka 7th house. Its sub

> is Venus who rules sub of lagna cusp. These influences keep tripping all

> over each other as Rahu is powerful indicator of lagna and ruler of 8th

> house cusp of longevity.

> Rahu is in nakshatra and sub of Moon. Moon is dire maraka by being in

> nakshatra of Venus in 2nd house. Moon sub is Ketu of course in nakshatra of

> Saturn and sub of Venus. Everyway you at it under KP. Jupiter/Moon/Saturn

> period says DEATH.

>

> I could post another 20 examples off the top of my head. Now this leads me

> to all this talk of "Jyotish" being a "Divine Science" handed down

> psychically that should not be subject to scientific analysis. Firstly

> nobody can actually say for sure "jyotish" was "divinely given" This is

> EXACTLY the type of thinking that led to mass genocide in the past in the

> name of a so called "divinely given" book. In the past we have had crusades

> in the name of God fearlessly led by people who felt they had a mandate from

> God via the Bible. Non believers were put to the sword and lands stolen in

> the name of God. The American Indians were the greatest victims of this type

> of thinking.

>

> This "Taliban" mentality is readily seen in the modern world where

> fundamentalists have the idea if that you are "not with us, you are

> therefore against us" and you should then be eliminated as a "non-believer."

> This was a problem with Christianity in the past and ruined any form of free

> or scientific thinking. Europe went through centuries of "Dark Ages" where

> people were murdered and butchered if they dared to challenge this

> fundamentalic religious thinking. Even in my parents generation people were

> told by Catholic priests that their children would be born blind if they

> married a "non believer." I was told by nuns at primary school not to play

> with the children from the state school across the road because they didn't

> believe in God. Pundit was told to spit at images of Siva and Ganesh by his

> Catholic school teachers. He tells a famous story of being told to spit on a

> statue of Ganesh and when he did he was struck down unconscious by some

> hidden force.

>

> Now to say we should not study the KP system or even try to understand it

> because it is not part of a so called "divine science" smacks of a witch

> burning type of mentality where there is a fear some sacred crows might be

> slain. I also feel ego comes into it as people do not want to see a better

> system appear apart from their own as they then may appear lacking in

> knowledge. Richard Houck told me many times his researches and conclusions

> fell on deaf ears at the ACVA as they didn't fit in with vested interests

> and "wiseman" types who wanted to be seen as the Gods of Vedic astrology in

> America.

>

> Pundit said to me today, "to stop trying to improve or evolve your astrology

> knowledge would be your greatest mistake." He said I work very traditionally

> anyway and progressions and these other techniques were both mentioned and

> used by the ancients. The Vimshottari dasha itself is a progression after

> all. In the past calculations of the KP chart were very hard and it required

> both patience, time and prolific mathematical skill to construct one quickly

> and accurately. This I feel is the real reason why it was not used widely.

>

> Another sacred cow that needs slaying is this idea that any old Indian man

> person practicing astrology is an exalted Jyotish with "divine skills". Time

> doing something does not necessarily equal mastery of a subject. (My golf

> game is testimony to that). Doing something correctly for a short time is

> much better than doing something wrong for a long time. This will be my last

> comments on KP for quite a long while I suspect, I am sick of trying to

> justify it or "prove" it to people who will probably never take the time to

> investigate it anyway.

>

> Most who condemn the Krishnamurti Padhati readily admit they have not

> studied it and don't understand it- yet they condemn it. This is a Saddam or

> Osama Bin Laden style of thinking where they hate the U.S passionately -but

> have never actually been there. I'm beginning to think these "Al Queda"

> style of astrology groups with faceless people endlessly arguing with each

> other over "Divine Subjects" is actually a perverse form of egoism rapt up

> in a spiritual paper wrapping.

>

> The greatest thing about Hinduism and Buddhism that seperates itself from

> Islam and fundamentalist Christianity is its call for self enquiry or

> introspection. The teachings of any system of belief should stand or fall on

> their merits in expounding cosmic or spiritual truths. Most self-realized

> men have said that no philosophy, guru or system of belief should be

> accepted unless it can be justified and accepted by your own consciousness.

> Now people are saying we should just swallow and parrot everything Parashara

> said as the gospel truth without any scrutiny???? Bollocks to

> that...........

>

> Andrew

>

Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat

> : gjlist-

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

[Guest guest]

Dear JIA,

 

Lucky for you, there are bonus points for humour!

 

Chris (of the Fellowship)

 

----------

Jiabbot

gjlist

Re: [GJ] Research and tradition

Monday, November 11, 2002 12:56 PM

 

Dear Visti,

 

I notice you quote my message but do not respond to any of my points or

acknowledge the message. I will therefore sign off as Et Al. (you can call

me Al!)

 

The KP focus on house cusps will in the end boil down to the issue of

nakshatra dispositors and subs, which you may perhaps reject but which

research (cursed research) will bear out as relevant. On this note, an

excellent apologetics piece on KP by Sat Siri Khalsa can be found at <

http://www.Vedic Astrology.org/krishnamurti.htm>.

 

Now, I concede, invoking the universally mystic number 12 vis-à-vis

kalapurusha isn't a bad method. No problem. But then, what do you do with

the numbers 27 and 28? Are they not relevant or related to "revealed"

knowledge? The fact is that nakshatra-driven analysis can be an excellent

counterpoint to rashi-based readings.

 

Your search for, in your words, a deeper understanding actually reveal some

even deeper desire to wrestle with the riches of nakshatra-driven Jyotisha, a

desire I share. This I recognize subtly or even "psychically" by your

reference to Nadi Jyotish. I am aware that Nadi analysis relies heavily on

the intricacies of nakshatras, as does KP. But what evidence can you adduce

to support your enthusiastic allegation that KSK "stole the system, he calls

his own, from some Nadis". Can you reveal your reasoning without 1)

thoroughly exploring both Nadi Jyotish and KP; or 2) if you are a Nadi

initiate (in which case, forgive my first assumption) --*revealing* the

secrets of the Nadi tradition?

 

Clearly, the plot thickens.

 

Respectfully,

 

J.I. Abbot

Member, Et Al. Jyotisha Fellowship

 

 

 

It sIn a message dated 11/11/2002 11:48:50 AM Eastern Standard Time,

vishnu writes:

> Dear Nick, Wendy, et. al.

> Wendy's brave message on cusps and Krishamurty, is worth understanding

> abit deeper.

>

> Limbs of Kalapurusha:

> Fact is that the 12 limbs of the kalapurusha constitute the fact that we

> are all expansions of God. We cannot change these limbs, and these

> divisions change from animal, insect, etc, yet the 12 limbs are still the

> same.

>

> Introducing cusps on the basis of the Rising sign, breaks this principle

> and we are no longer looking at the limbs of the physical body, but a body

> beyond that of the physical. This is the basis of calculating a special

> bhava chart on the basis of the BHAVA LAGNA.. Not any other lagna.

>

>

> As for Krishnamurty, I don't support a person who critisizes his Gurus or

> the Rishis, as this is the first step in the degredation of knowledge.

> Krishnamurty infact stole the system, he calls his own, from some Nadis, in

> his frustration towards the ancient paramparas at the time who were hiding

> the knowledge.

>

> As the system exists, the basis of using it, then becomes a question, and

> the exact intricacies also becomes important. No doubt the system works,

> but why and how it works should also be understood.

>

> Best wishes

> Visti

>

[Guest guest]

Ahh,the waves are crashing, a good massage it gives, water in the lungs,

lots of salt to digest, some coughing, but above all, a healthy tumble!

 

For God's sake people, no, your own, remember, this is all to help us, to

help eachother, to help people, be healthy and happy, fully, for it is for

finding out their unique needs quickly, thus it is the craft of the healers,

the Druids, the Brahmins, the Priests, the one's who should be able by their

training to swiftly diagnose physical, emotional and spiritual problems and

strengths, and give the advice, which will send the person happily onto a

better time, who then thus repays the priest in various ways. Such is our

lot and calling, to help others.

 

Let's not forget the spirit for which we live, which is the above, and find

it more and more, and share that, and go for that.

 

And the knowledge we need is found in every tradition differently, and

variously, and we have to sniff it out like the Hounds of the Healing

Ways...

 

Now a man who can have sex in old age surely is capable of finding out alot

and worthy of studying!, though he may use Placidus, that doesn't mean he's

placid.

[Guest guest]

Dear Visty,

 

Limbs of Kalapurusha:

Fact is that the 12 limbs of the kalapurusha constitute the fact that we are all

expansions of God. We cannot change these limbs, and these divisions change from

animal, insect, etc, yet the 12 limbs are still the same.

WHERE AND HOW THESE ARE CHANGED IN KP , CAN YOU DEMONSTRATE?

Introducing cusps on the basis of the Rising sign, breaks this principle and we

are no longer looking at the limbs of the physical body, but a body beyond that

of the physical. This is the basis of calculating a special bhava chart on the

basis of the BHAVA LAGNA.. Not any other lagna.

HOW IT BREAKS THE PRINCIPLE FOR THE SAME POINT WE CALCULATE DIFFERENT DIVISIONS

CHART; IN VEDIC WE CALCULATE BHAVA STRENGTH OF INDIVIDUAL PLANET, CHAMATKAAR

CHINTAMANI SPECFICALY SUGGESTS TO READ PLANETS FROM BHAVA KUNDLI, YOUR

reference to BHAVA LAGNA IS JAMINI AND IS NOT RELEVENT WITH KP. CUSP SYTEM HAS

BEEN ELABORATED MORE STRONGLY BY DAS.

As for Krishnamurty, I don't support a person who critisizes his Gurus or the

Rishis, as this is the first step in the degredation of knowledge. Krishnamurty

infact stole the system, he calls his own, from some Nadis, in his frustration

towards the ancient paramparas at the time who were hiding the knowledge.

IN KALUGA EVERY PERSON IS DOING LIKE THIS, WHEN YOU FAVOUR 8 KARKASCHEME YOU ARE

CRISIZING THE LEARNED AND GURUS IN 7 KARKA SCHEME. EVEN BPHS HAS DIFFERENT

TRANSLATIONS. BELEVE IN ONE YOU BECOME THE NATURAL CRITIC OF ANOTHER.

 

AND FROM WHERE KRISHNA MURTY STOLE THE SYSTEM? LET THE SYTEM CAME FROM HELL , IF

IT IS WORKING IT SHOULD BE USED OR DISCARD.AND WHICH NADI GAVE THIS SYSTEM, I

LACK KNOWELDGE IN THIS. CAN YOU PLEASE ENRICH MY KNOWLEDGE?

As the system exists, the basis of using it, then becomes a question, and the

exact intricacies also becomes important. No doubt the system works, but why

and how it works should also be understood.

YES THAT IS THE PROBLME THAT IT WORKS, IT WORKS DUE TO THE VISHMOTARY DASHA

SYTEM AND PLACIDUS CUSPS POINTS PASS THE TEST OF THIS INDIAN SYSTEM(ASTROLOGY

ITS SELF ORIGNATED FROM VEDAS OTHERS CAN BE CALLED ITS BRANCHES LIKE WESTERN,

INDIAN (PRASHARI , JAMINI, NADI)).

BUT FOR THE CRITICISIM OF KP THE PERSON RESPONSIBLE ARE KP Astrologers. One need

not criticise another system to establish the superiority and KP astrologers

forget that it is an offshoot of already known methods which pass the test and

this is in the hands of consultants of KP and in the hands of persons to say

with authority that which system work and which dont.

 

For Wendy and you both to comment on this sytem , learn this and practise in it

at least for 5 years and then tell that what is What ?

Or your statements have the same value as of a layman about Astrology.

With the practical experience of 30 years in vedic as per your terms and with 22

years of Vedic+Kp experience , i can say with gurantee that a person who hates

any of two will not be able to learn this divine science . If vedic give you

the overall view then KP gives the precision.

As in your case by Kp i know that your sub lord is Mercury though ascendent is

of Mars , but you are in the habit of speaking and have taste for teaching and

counnseling , because mercury is in jupiter constelation and mercury has the

influnce of both jupiter and venus due to exchange , both brahmis by nature.

But this does not mean that you loose Scorpio contents. It only means that your

scorpio contents are manifested by libra through mercury and this mercury is

lecturing and playing Guru with others due to Jupiter and venus influnce.

Best wishes,

Inder Jit Sahni

[Guest guest]

>

> I want to comment on the "Holy Cow" aspects of this discussion, as they

are

> a big part of my life, where I have much experience as one who has tried

to

> really follow the priest class in both western and various eastern

lineages,

> and having recently studied Celts, encountered another divine priest-craft

> class. I have "served faithfully" the "teachings of" various Gurus

> including Parashara Muni, and have received much for doing so, on various

> levels, and have suffered too.

 

 

Das, I have read long posts from you with you crying about self isolation,

lonliness, depression and you inner battles with yourself. We have to ask

has all your "spiritual training" actually made you into a more functional

human being.

 

 

 

> When one takes a strong stand, say disclaiming the divine status of

> revelation, then one puts oneself into peril in some ways. There are

> people, many, who directly live off that conception, of fully believing in

> the divine status of revelation, and when you meet the best of these

people,

> they are unshakeable.

 

 

I have never doubted divine revelation at all. However, I have seen little

or any of it on these lists. Astrology as we must practice it, is a physical

mathematical science as we have no psychic faculties to categorically

confirm what is, or is not "revelation" By filing everything we don't

understand about astrology into the "divine revelation" box, you put

astrology in the hands of religious axe granders or frauds who mislead

people. This is what we see on these psychic telephone lines with people

just bullshitting or selling hope to vulnerable people. Lets be honest,

Astrology has absolutely no credibility with the general public, that is

because it is primarily in the hands of vested interests and assorted

bullshitters who make a comfortable living from it. Secondly there is nobody

who can use it clearly and accurately who has any real public profile. All

we had is Jonathan Canier in the Sunday paper with his cryptic Sun sign

hogwash or Athena Starwoman in the weekly mags offering her nonsense to

entertain us at the barber shop.

 

 

 

That conception works for them fully. I'm thinking of

> Vaisnavas I know in Bengal for example. They believe and argue nicely the

> case for full acceptance of revelation. They are the only people I know

who

> always and fully control their senses, though I'm sure there are others on

> Earth in other lineages I'm not personally in contact with.

 

 

 

 

Most of the fundamentalism in Vedic astrology comes from western converts to

it. Many have taken on Hinduism and Jyotish with the zeal of an ex-smoker

who shows such serious distaste for his former habit. I seldom see this in

Indians or Sr Lankans I meet. My teacher and his old mates like Bala Ratnam

who is an expert in pranayama and yoga do not share the closed minded

approach I see from many on these lists. Last week I got a call from a

friend of Pundits who has travelled from Sri Lanka. He has studied astrology

for decades and is also a devout Hindu. He rang me to confirm he was coming

to Melbourne and wanted to come and discuss the Krishnamurti system,

tertiary progressions and eclipses with me. He was like a young boy eagerly

in search of some new knowledge. This opened minded approach I find is very

common from Indian or Sri Lankans. By far the most rigid Hindu astrologers

are now westerners. I often correspond with Archaya Palaniswami the

publisher of "Hinduism Today Magazine" and even he isn't as dogmatic or

rigid as some of the people on these groups.

 

 

 

 

> The person who is chiefly arguing against revelation in this particular

> discussion on this list has also informed us of his many difficulties in

> life which stem from things like hot nature, something which is not found

in

> the religious and sense controlled very much. So, we are talking two

> different doshas here, two different needs.

 

 

 

My life in reality has been no more difficult than anybodys. I just openly

talk about it rather than stacking up the skeletons in the closet like most

people do. I am not really as firey as I may appear in writing. I do have a

Pitta nature for sure and that calls for intellectual clarity. The "Bible"

is said to be "divine revelation" with Jesus being born to a virgin, walking

on water, rising from the dead (now that was the ultimate party trick) and

then ascending into heaven after taking all the time to raise from the dead.

 

 

 

> I have spent very sweet times in my life under the instruction of the

> priestly class of Vaisnavism, namely say Sridhar Maharaj, my Diksha Guru,

> the Godbrother of Prabhupada, at his ashrams in Bengal, California and

> London England, back in the early 80's. This was very real, and can be

real,

> in an ongoing way, for those who are capable of staying in it. They have

no

> need of, and do not consult, astrology, of any type. They are on the

> platform of surrendered service to God, which precludes needing any worry

> about personality or future.

 

 

 

 

 

Again I ask you are you an emotionally functional human being for all this

sadhana or just emotionally and sexually lonely and repressed? I think this

is the question you must ask of yourself. Had you naturally unfolded into

that area where renunciation came naturally for you? Had you fullfilled all

your desires whether emotionally, sexually or financially? If not, you stand

to fry in your unresolved energies. Why, out of all the groups we have in

society is sexual abuse of children so rampant in religious groups? Is it

because they naturally attract deviants or is it because unresolved desire

becomes so repressed it can then only warp and take on a different perverted

form of energy manifesting in abuse of innocents? Some of the cruelest most

viciously warped people I encountered as a child were nuns and brothers who

were in many cases nothing but sadists.

 

 

 

 

 

> The same can be said of other traditions that I've studied, including

> Catholic. There is no need of astrology, no care for it, and no use of it,

> and these are real people, with real emotions, real ideas about how they

> believe and live life, and they are valid, and often, they are very happy

> and satisfied, and at times, I've been one of them.

 

 

 

 

Being raised a Catholic I realised I was amongst some of the most two faced

hypocrites on the earth. Their seen happiness is often a carefullly

cultivated illusion.

 

 

 

 

> True, wars have been fought over fundamentalistic values, and many

millions

> of people have been slain on Earth for non-adherence to one leaders

values.

> No argument. I'm not defending fundamentalism on that ground, but the

> points above are still true.

 

 

 

 

Billions have been slaughtered in the name of God or some religious nut.

 

 

 

 

> Priest Craft to me means: "You set yourself up as holy, keep others in

check

> with threats coming from your belief and "knowledge", and thus control

them,

> who are supersticious and fearful of things like Divine Expulsion from

some

> unseen paradise, and so you tag along with the priest, having succumbed to

> his priest craft. He then sells you things from his craft, yagyas,

> sacrifices, etc., and you and your descendents go on in fear, getting

> nothing real or tangible".

 

 

 

 

 

You have accurately described 90% of religious leaders.

 

 

 

 

 

> Ireland is a grand example of the effects of this- as the Celts are by

> nature very faithful to their beliefs, both before and after Christianity.

> Ireland is a stronghold of Catholicism, hard to compare to any other. This

> comes from the strong Celtic base, which was utterly adherent to the

Druids

> who were VERY similar to Brahmins in India.

 

 

 

 

 

Again freethinkers who were slaughtered by zealots.

 

 

 

 

 

> In my example about my name, basically, the person is saying that one must

> cut themself off from all past heritage, and identify with a Sanskrit

name,

> in order to have the higher taste in life right now. This means that all

> people without Sanskrit names cannot have the higher taste right now, and

> this to me is not correct. (I'm avoiding saying it's hogwash etc) to keep

> things up a bit.

 

 

 

 

If my name was Buck Naked or Bhagwan Skinbagananda would it actually make me

anymore or any less capable of living as a functional human being than you

Das?? Truth and honesty towards myself and others is more important than

names.

 

 

 

 

 

> No amount of Sankrit books in your apartment will save you, or make you

> happy. You can play the CD's all day, read the books, even chant, and

still

> be full of desires, still be full of the potential for criminal activity,

> still be full of lust, etc. Nothing can save you, but you, nothing can

> straighten your desires, but you. Ultimately you must go through the eye

of

> the needle. You, not language, not your Guru, not your connects, not your

> money, just you. It doesn't matter how you phrase words in your head, as

> Hindu or English, but you must know what is true, you must know what is

> sincerity of alignment for your soul with the creators/creative.

 

 

 

 

That is my point too.

 

 

 

 

> So I am saying, there is holy books, holy words, holy cows, of many types,

> in Sanskrit culture and other cultures, if that serves you. If that is

your

> reality, then that's real. Nobody else can interfere, and should not, at

> least in your own mind of devotion.

 

 

 

 

 

All I am saying is there are plenty of sacred cows that need shooting. Or

fried up with onions an mushies LOL .

 

 

 

 

 

> I have cried and cried because of the pain caused to me by the priest

craft,

> and those inside it, espousing holy cows, and ruining my life with their

> words. Yes, I have serious anger if I want to "go there" to that anger,

and

> see it, feel it, recognize it. I can write volumes on "those jerks" (much

> stronger words felt, avoided here).

 

 

 

 

 

Not to mention their perverted abuse of our most innocent souls- children.

 

 

 

 

 

The fact that KP was a skirt chaser, in a way, shows his passion, which

pegs

> him as at odds with general Hindu authorities, and so the wake of his work

 

> is this argument, and we all know, who have read him, that he was very

fond

> of putting down traditional Vedic astrology VERY strongly, in no uncertain

> terms. So, hence, this argument follows his work, which is a putting

> together of a few standard though less discussed Nakshatra techniques,

with

> a Western house system. These two techniques are both more "exact" than

what

> is used alot, and hence end up causing sometimes exact hits, which can

also

> be had other ways. I have had exact hits in my work, using non-kp

> techniques, but using exact parts of the science otherwise.

 

 

 

 

 

Anybody who has studied KP knows it is a powerful and accurate system. I

just had an issue with people who openly admit they know nothing about it

yet claim it doesn't work and is not a part of "Jyotish" or "divine

revelation". This is the type of flat earth mentality that Darwin, Newton,

Kepler and Einstein faced at one point in time. Now their ideas are

considered self evident.

 

 

 

 

> Speaking from this central chair I occupy, I can assert that very often

you

> hear the word "he was exactly correct to the day" when people tell you of

> their dealings with their (various) KP astrologers (always from India).

The

> point is, they get alot of hits, whereas you don't hear this AS MUCH from

> other people. KP seems to work. This I am relating without alteration. It

> just seems to work quite exactly.

 

 

 

 

Agreed.

 

 

 

 

> But I think it's because they labor towards exactness, and use the

> Nakshatras, which are very powerful, I've found, from many experiences,

not

> just KP ones. Also, using house cusps is very powerful, but which one's

are

> best, that's a discussion. Remember, the four main KP bhava sandhis, are

the

> four main madhyas of the Sripati system, identically, and others house

cusps

> will be very close in most charts, with the KP Sandhis often matching the

> madhyas of the two standard Vedic systems. (Programmers privelage, but

> anyone can see these things using their eyes and brain). Version 3 will

> allow all kinds of lines visually, and it makes it more clear.

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is nothing wrong with being exact. If you went to your Doctor and he

wanted to operate on your heart, you'd want exact precision wouldn't you?

Would you be happy if he said "Oh I have a fair idea of what to do, I have

read Grays anatomy, I have read how to do at medical school "The old medical

books explain how to do heart surgery" Or.......

would you prefer a Doctor who has real practical experience by doing it

successfully for many years?????????.

Why the hell you should we expect anything less from an astrologer who is

charging $175 an hour.

 

 

 

 

 

> So taking the sub lords of house madhyas and sandhis in any system, and

> using exact transit moments, is a very interesting study, and doesn't

really

> belong to Krishnamurti himself, though he did put his name on it.

 

 

 

 

 

Why shouldn't he give his work his name? You call your software "Goravani

Jyotish" you don't call it "Goravani Jyotish incorporating all Bill Gates

and Microsofts previous work with programming" LOL.

 

 

 

 

 

> Those who try to "take down" the priest class are seen as ruining the

faith

> in God of many. This is why the likes of KP and Rick Houck often find they

> are not accepted in religious communities, because their ways, their

> cavalier natures, their "scientific" self proclaimed credentials, are all

of

> a mood which is not based in devotion, surrender, and submission, to God.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes Rick Houck that homewrecker, God help us if we ever listen to a person

who actually can use astrology practically. Heaven forbid we listen to a

person who is lucid, clear and realistic in his interpretation of astrology.

Ricks biggest mistake was to think people would actually take the time to

study his work before condemning him as a "Vedic astrology wrecker" He

openly admitted he didn't know much about some traditional parts of Jyotish

as he had yet to encounter somebody who could explain these things to him

lucidly. That was the real problem, he was not prepared to accept something

he could not prove to work in the real world. Great crime that!

 

 

 

 

 

> Many people want to live lives of bhakti, to varying degrees, and they

avoid

> these kinds of mavericks, seeing them as anti-spiritual life, plainly. I

> understand this. These persons are threats to the peace of the Garden of

> Eden so to speak. They are of the wandering mind. They are of the

> speculative, empirical, anti-God, anti-revelation. The staunchly religious

> will never accept this mood.

 

 

 

 

You are trying to mix religion with astrology which is based on astronomy

and mathematics. What Krishnamurti and Houck were to show was if used

precisely, astrology is perhaps our greatest science in understanding mans

relationship to time.

 

 

 

 

 

> On the other hand, they are the protectors of those outside the

traditions,

> perhaps, causing the traditions to actually "produce tangible goods" or

> "take a hike", which is also a laudable idea on it's own, for those whom

it

> serves, and I understand that position QUITE well as wel

>

> But I really understand both, and when one is in an utter spiritual

crisis,

> you cannot pray to Rick Houck or Krishnamurti the angry skirt chaser. You

> pray to Krishna, Parashara perhaps, etc. You pray to Gurus who adhere, you

> pray to priests who adhere, and when dieing, you would never pray to

> science, or logic, for help.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, but again we should not mix faith with what what is practical workable

astrology. You don't sell your astrology software without it working

practically do you.

 

 

 

 

 

I note that both Andrew and his mentor have serious disabilitiesm, as per

> Andrew's own words, and this too speaks. In all ancient cultures, it was

> considered an impossibility for such disabled persons to be accepted as

> leaders. Interesting point. Were the ancient cultures simply foolish and

> wrong? Or is there something to the idea that disease is a sign of

problems

> of character as well?

 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps my biggest mental disability is my pathetic obessession in writing

on these lists. The bit about ancient leaders is total hogwash and is just

something you have read somewhere. I doubt is has much truth in reality.

Modern DNA testing on Egyptian mummy's has shown many were riddled with

disease and deformity. Most barely made it adulthood. Even the Pharoahs who

were seen as Gods were riddled with chronic diseases. Pundit himself has

only suffered with disease in old age due to his diabetes. He fathered five

children and has a tribe of grandchildren who are wonderful people. Pundit

doesn't suffer from any "messiah complex" with a need to indoctrinate or

save anybody. He does however like to study and discuss astrology in a

sensible and rational manner- like myself. Any personal attack on me is like

water off a ducks back and we first must consider if the person making it is

free from flaws themselves. In the past I have listened to your lonely rants

and desire for a woman etc. It would have been very easy for me to attack

you or take easy jibes at you and your beliefs at that time. I have never

actually resorted to personal attacks on anybody let alone called them

disabled LOL. Your halo has slipped off here Das. I am actually going to a

puja tonight for the first aniversary of the death of Sivaya

Subramuniyaswami at Pundits house. I am sure we will have a long laugh over

your comments on our obvious disability. No doubt Pundit will say his usual

"a little knowlege is a dangerous thing" line. LOL

 

 

Bhagwan Skinbagananda

[Guest guest]

Hare Rama Krishna

Dear Al,

I'm not interested in an agressive discussion, so i will frank.

 

1) I see all traditions as part of one whole.

2) Sat Siri is doing good work, in the system that is popularly called KP. I

respect her and any Jyotish for doing any work, as long as its sincere.

3) KN Rao has earlier spoken about Krishnamurty's source of learnings on other lists.

 

Please reply if i left out something.

 

Best wishesVisti---Bhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgBrihat

Parasara Hora Shastra:

vedic astrologybphs.zipiTRANS 99 Font:

http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org/Sanskrit/Itranslt.html

-

Jiabbot (AT) cs (DOT) com

gjlist

Monday, November 11, 2002 10:32 PM

Re: [GJ] Research and tradition

Dear Visti,I appreciate the message, but you again seem to miss some of my

points. I only identify Nadi jyotish as a specific tradition within Jyotish,

just as we also speak legitimately of Jaimini Jyotish, Tajika Jyotish. Tantric

Jyotish, etc. (See deFouw and Svoboda 1996 [_LOL_] pp. 14-19). I know that

certain orthodox segments like to make short shrift of traceable historical

developments, but, well, c'mon.You must see that it's a little dodgy to extol

the accomplishments of the superb jyotishi Sat Siri Khalsa (we agree on this

part) and yet not acknowledge her role as one of the most articulate advocates

of KP living today. Of course KP is not her only area of expertise, but she's

*unequivocally* a supporter and defender of this system.That make the

diplomatic communications a little tricky, doesn't it?Do you see that when you

accuse one of the most consistently accurate jyotishis of the 20th century of

*stealing* his life's work from elsewhere, that is a most serious allegation?

In that one claim you also, perhaps unwittingly, malign all those who value and

continue KSK's work, Sat Siri included. When you make an allegation, you must

defend and support it with real evidence. This was the second time today you

specifically avoided distinct queries and points I made.Fundamentalist agendas

drive so much pain, suffering and war in our world. Jyotisha is the technology

of sacred light, and should not be obscured by this kind of sycophancy.Anyone

who knows the history of the world outside the Indian subcontinent will also

see that the Hellenistic and Indian world were both the subject and object of

cross-fertilization. Jyotish is no exception to this. The obvious presence of

astrological references in the Rg Veda does not obviate or preclude meaningful

exchanges. The greatness of Vedic thought can withstand this. To suggest

otherwise suggests a poverty of faith, intellectual rigor and historical

perspective.Apart from these points, which I cannot underscore enough, thank

you for your otherwise rich post on the architecture of solar and lunar

dimensions.Respectfully,J.I. AbbotIn a message dated 11/11/2002 1:29:54 PM

Eastern Standard Time, vishnu (AT) lbq (DOT) dk writes:

As for nadis. It would be wrong to differentiate Nadis from what is known today

as Vedic-Astrology. I have some slokas from Chandra Kala Nadi and Bhrigu Nadi,

which speak about Arudha Padas, about Astakavarga, basic Gochara, and all such

things that MahaRishi Parasara talked about. So wheres the difference?... the

reader. Best wishesVistiOm Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat

Sat:

gjlist-http://www.goravani.comYour use of

is subject to the

[Guest guest]

Om Jum Sah. Vyam Vyaasadevaaya Namah. Sah Jum Om

Dear Inderji,

Comments bellow in Blue, the debilitation of Mars.

Best wishesVisti---Bhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgBrihat

Parasara Hora Shastra:

vedic astrologybphs.zipiTRANS 99 Font:

http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org/Sanskrit/Itranslt.html

-

Inder Jit Sahni

gjlist

Tuesday, November 12, 2002 3:51 AM

Re: [GJ] Research and tradition

Dear Visty,

 

Limbs of Kalapurusha:

Fact is that the 12 limbs of the kalapurusha constitute the fact that we are all

expansions of God. We cannot change these limbs, and these divisions change from

animal, insect, etc, yet the 12 limbs are still the same.

WHERE AND HOW THESE ARE CHANGED IN KP , CAN YOU DEMONSTRATE?

 

Visti: It isn't, unless one considers the cusps as borders of the bhava,

instead of merely focal points, as this draws new limbs of the zodiac. The 12

Rasis are the real borders and this shouldn't be changed.

The problem with Placidus is when you take it to higher or lower lattitudes, and

the cusps become completely derranged.

 

Introducing cusps on the basis of the Rising sign, breaks this principle and we

are no longer looking at the limbs of the physical body, but a body beyond that

of the physical. This is the basis of calculating a special bhava chart on the

basis of the BHAVA LAGNA.. Not any other lagna.

HOW IT BREAKS THE PRINCIPLE FOR THE SAME POINT WE CALCULATE DIFFERENT DIVISIONS

CHART; IN VEDIC WE CALCULATE BHAVA STRENGTH OF INDIVIDUAL PLANET, CHAMATKAAR

CHINTAMANI SPECFICALY SUGGESTS TO READ PLANETS FROM BHAVA KUNDLI, YOUR

reference to BHAVA LAGNA IS JAMINI AND IS NOT RELEVENT WITH KP. CUSP SYTEM HAS

BEEN ELABORATED MORE STRONGLY BY DAS.

 

Visti: "sooryodayam samaarabhya ghadikaanaam panchakam, prayaati

janmaparyantam bhaavalagnam tadeva" BPHS, Vishesalagnaadhyaya, Sloka 2. Can you

please give Jaiminis reference to the same?

 

As for Krishnamurty, I don't support a person who critisizes his Gurus or the

Rishis, as this is the first step in the degredation of knowledge. Krishnamurty

infact stole the system, he calls his own, from some Nadis, in his frustration

towards the ancient paramparas at the time who were hiding the knowledge.

IN KALUGA EVERY PERSON IS DOING LIKE THIS, WHEN YOU FAVOUR 8 KARKASCHEME YOU ARE

CRISIZING THE LEARNED AND GURUS IN 7 KARKA SCHEME. EVEN BPHS HAS DIFFERENT

TRANSLATIONS. BELEVE IN ONE YOU BECOME THE NATURAL CRITIC OF ANOTHER.

 

Visti: yes we do, i agree.

 

AND FROM WHERE KRISHNA MURTY STOLE THE SYSTEM? LET THE SYTEM CAME FROM HELL , IF

IT IS WORKING IT SHOULD BE USED OR DISCARD.AND WHICH NADI GAVE THIS SYSTEM, I

LACK KNOWELDGE IN THIS. CAN YOU PLEASE ENRICH MY KNOWLEDGE?

 

Visti: I an sorry, but the exact Nadi hasn't been disclosed to me.

 

As the system exists, the basis of using it, then becomes a question, and the

exact intricacies also becomes important. No doubt the system works, but why

and how it works should also be understood.

YES THAT IS THE PROBLME THAT IT WORKS, IT WORKS DUE TO THE VISHMOTARY DASHA

SYTEM AND PLACIDUS CUSPS POINTS PASS THE TEST OF THIS INDIAN SYSTEM(ASTROLOGY

ITS SELF ORIGNATED FROM VEDAS OTHERS CAN BE CALLED ITS BRANCHES LIKE WESTERN,

INDIAN (PRASHARI , JAMINI, NADI)).

BUT FOR THE CRITICISIM OF KP THE PERSON RESPONSIBLE ARE KP Astrologers. One need

not criticise another system to establish the superiority and KP astrologers

forget that it is an offshoot of already known methods which pass the test and

this is in the hands of consultants of KP and in the hands of persons to say

with authority that which system work and which dont.

 

Visti: I never said the system doesn't work, i'm supporting everyones study

of the same, just that one should thoroughly know the origin and reasons.

 

For Wendy and you both to comment on this sytem , learn this and practise in it

at least for 5 years and then tell that what is What ?

Or your statements have the same value as of a layman about Astrology.

With the practical experience of 30 years in vedic as per your terms and with 22

years of Vedic+Kp experience , i can say with gurantee that a person who hates

any of two will not be able to learn this divine science . If vedic give you

the overall view then KP gives the precision.

 

Visti: You have misunderstood me, i'm not against the system, it would be

ignorrant todo so. The author is the vehicle of the knowledge, but the

knowledge isn't attached to the author. I critisized the author. Are you going

to defend the author or the system? I accept your recommendations, i will do my

best.

 

As in your case by Kp i know that your sub lord is Mercury though ascendent is

of Mars , but you are in the habit of speaking and have taste for teaching and

counnseling , because mercury is in jupiter constelation and mercury has the

influnce of both jupiter and venus due to exchange , both brahmis by nature.

But this does not mean that you loose Scorpio contents. It only means that your

scorpio contents are manifested by libra through mercury and this mercury is

lecturing and playing Guru with others due to Jupiter and venus influnce.

Visti: I never wrote these emails with any intent of anger, nor to critisize

the users of this system, which i hold high in esteem. I do have knowledge that

i have extolled for you and others, whether you know these things or not.

Does that make me a guru? Its of no interest to me to exalt my status, i want

the knowledge, not the fame you can also see this in my chart, just look at

Moon. I'm hurt by your words.

Best wishes,

Inder Jit SahniOm Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat SatTo

, send an email to:

gjlist-http://www.goravani.comYour use of

is subject to the

[Guest guest]

Sorry to intervene between you and Visti, Inder, but

KP did not take it from any nadi, that I am sure, and

where from he took it and how he took it is also known

to me, but would not like to talk about it.

 

So Visti, I think anyone who told you that KP took it

from a Nadi book was perhaps incorrect.

 

Manoj

 

 

 

U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos

http://launch./u2

[Guest guest]

Dear Visti,

My answer below.

Visti: It isn't, unless one considers the cusps as borders of the bhava,

instead of merely focal points, as this draws new limbs of the zodiac. The 12

Rasis are the real borders and this shouldn't be changed.

The problem with Placidus is when you take it to higher or lower latitudes, and

the cusps become completely derranged.

Answer : problem is same for bhava Kundli with the sripati method .

If you will go through the AAkriti yogas , basically given by Yavna Achariyas

described by Sage Varahmihira(in Brihajjatkam) that if 1st and 7th has all the

benefic and 4rth and 10th has all the malefic then the prescribed yoga is

called Vajra Yoga.

If 4rth and 10th has benefic and 1st and 7th all the malefic then the

combination is called Yav Yoga.

In the next Shaloka Varahmihir says

"Purva Shastranusaren Maya Vajradaya Krita

Chaturathebhavne Surayajayagosito bhavan kathnam."

 

That is i said these combination after looking in to the books of May , Yavan ,

Manithay, but how can mercury and Venus go into fourth from Sun . Mercury and

Venus can not Go in to fourth in rashi but in cusp chart.

But this is possible in higher latitudes. So this discussion and confusion is

not new for the Astrologers.

Visti: "sooryodayam samaarabhya ghadikaanaam panchakam, prayaati

janmaparyantam bhaavalagnam tadeva" BPHS, Vishesalagnaadhyaya, Sloka 2. Can you

please give Jaiminis reference to the same?

Answer : i am also refering to the same , it is used for Jamini.

Visti: You have misunderstood me, i'm not against the system, it would be

ignorrant todo so. The author is the vehicle of the knowledge, but the

knowledge isn't attached to the author. I critisized the author. Are you going

to defend the author or the system? I accept your recommendations, i will do my

best.

Answer: i am not going to defend any but to myself, i know the system and it

work pretty well with me. I am concerned with the fruit not the tree.And fruit

is tasty.

Visti: I never said the system doesn't work, i'm supporting everyones study

of the same, just that one should thoroughly know the origin and reasons.

Answer: Good that should be the spirit.

Visti: I never wrote these emails with any intent of anger, nor to critisize

the users of this system, which i hold high in esteem. I do have knowledge that

i have extolled for you and others, whether you know these things or not.

Does that make me a guru? Its of no interest to me to exalt my status, i want

the knowledge, not the fame you can also see this in my chart, just look at

Moon. I'm hurt by your words.

Answer: you misunderstood me, my words foresee the future Astrologer in you . It

is a blessing to have your sublord in the constellation of Jupiter.Fame and

wealth never come with desires.

Check it and match with AC's sub lords of

Richard Houck,Sub lord is Venus in the constellation of Jupiter, but Venus sub

lord is Saturn reducing the confidence and giving short age.

BV Raman,sub lord is Jupiter in the constellation of Saturn , More practical

and worldly wise , but marred by the Jupiter's sub lord Rahu though Rahu too

represent Jupiter being in Jupiter sign.

Sanjay Rath , sub lord is rahu , representing Jupiter and Mercury both, but

Rahu's sub lord is Venus combust and in the constellation of Saturn making him

practical ultimately.

And check yours sub merc. it is in Jupiter constellation and Mercury sub and

Mercury represent Jupiter again. Most pure form for learning these Divine

Sciences and that too in Libra an airy sign, giving you analytical mind the

main requirement of KP.

So be happy and learn more.

With Best wishes,

Inder Jit sahni

House No. 1351-HIG, Model Town, Phase-1, Bhatinda-151001

Pb.<India>hanskpvedic

 

Dear Inderji,

Comments bellow in Blue, the debilitation of Mars.

Best wishesVisti---Bhagavad Purana: http://www.srimadbhagavatam.orgBrihat

Parasara Hora Shastra:

vedic astrologybphs.zipiTRANS 99 Font:

http://www.omkarananda-ashram.org/Sanskrit/Itranslt.html

-

Inder Jit Sahni

gjlist

Tuesday, November 12, 2002 3:51 AM

Re: [GJ] Research and tradition

Dear Visty,

 

Limbs of Kalapurusha:

Fact is that the 12 limbs of the kalapurusha constitute the fact that we are all

expansions of God. We cannot change these limbs, and these divisions change from

animal, insect, etc, yet the 12 limbs are still the same.

WHERE AND HOW THESE ARE CHANGED IN KP , CAN YOU DEMONSTRATE?

 

 

 

Introducing cusps on the basis of the Rising sign, breaks this principle and we

are no longer looking at the limbs of the physical body, but a body beyond that

of the physical. This is the basis of calculating a special bhava chart on the

basis of the BHAVA LAGNA.. Not any other lagna.

HOW IT BREAKS THE PRINCIPLE FOR THE SAME POINT WE CALCULATE DIFFERENT DIVISIONS

CHART; IN VEDIC WE CALCULATE BHAVA STRENGTH OF INDIVIDUAL PLANET, CHAMATKAAR

CHINTAMANI SPECFICALY SUGGESTS TO READ PLANETS FROM BHAVA KUNDLI, YOUR

reference to BHAVA LAGNA IS JAMINI AND IS NOT RELEVENT WITH KP. CUSP SYTEM HAS

BEEN ELABORATED MORE STRONGLY BY DAS.

 

 

As for Krishnamurty, I don't support a person who critisizes his Gurus or the

Rishis, as this is the first step in the degredation of knowledge. Krishnamurty

infact stole the system, he calls his own, from some Nadis, in his frustration

towards the ancient paramparas at the time who were hiding the knowledge.

IN KALUGA EVERY PERSON IS DOING LIKE THIS, WHEN YOU FAVOUR 8 KARKASCHEME YOU ARE

CRISIZING THE LEARNED AND GURUS IN 7 KARKA SCHEME. EVEN BPHS HAS DIFFERENT

TRANSLATIONS. BELEVE IN ONE YOU BECOME THE NATURAL CRITIC OF ANOTHER.

 

Visti: yes we do, i agree.

 

AND FROM WHERE KRISHNA MURTY STOLE THE SYSTEM? LET THE SYTEM CAME FROM HELL , IF

IT IS WORKING IT SHOULD BE USED OR DISCARD.AND WHICH NADI GAVE THIS SYSTEM, I

LACK KNOWELDGE IN THIS. CAN YOU PLEASE ENRICH MY KNOWLEDGE?

 

Visti: I an sorry, but the exact Nadi hasn't been disclosed to me.

 

As the system exists, the basis of using it, then becomes a question, and the

exact intricacies also becomes important. No doubt the system works, but why

and how it works should also be understood.

YES THAT IS THE PROBLME THAT IT WORKS, IT WORKS DUE TO THE VISHMOTARY DASHA

SYTEM AND PLACIDUS CUSPS POINTS PASS THE TEST OF THIS INDIAN SYSTEM(ASTROLOGY

ITS SELF ORIGNATED FROM VEDAS OTHERS CAN BE CALLED ITS BRANCHES LIKE WESTERN,

INDIAN (PRASHARI , JAMINI, NADI)).

BUT FOR THE CRITICISIM OF KP THE PERSON RESPONSIBLE ARE KP Astrologers. One need

not criticise another system to establish the superiority and KP astrologers

forget that it is an offshoot of already known methods which pass the test and

this is in the hands of consultants of KP and in the hands of persons to say

with authority that which system work and which dont.

 

 

 

For Wendy and you both to comment on this sytem , learn this and practise in it

at least for 5 years and then tell that what is What ?

Or your statements have the same value as of a layman about Astrology.

With the practical experience of 30 years in vedic as per your terms and with 22

years of Vedic+Kp experience , i can say with gurantee that a person who hates

any of two will not be able to learn this divine science . If vedic give you

the overall view then KP gives the precision.

 

 

 

As in your case by Kp i know that your sub lord is Mercury though ascendent is

of Mars , but you are in the habit of speaking and have taste for teaching and

counnseling , because mercury is in jupiter constelation and mercury has the

influnce of both jupiter and venus due to exchange , both brahmis by nature.

But this does not mean that you loose Scorpio contents. It only means that your

scorpio contents are manifested by libra through mercury and this mercury is

lecturing and playing Guru with others due to Jupiter and venus influnce.

..

Best wishes,

Inder Jit SahniOm Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat SatTo

, send an email to:

gjlist-http://www.goravani.comYour use of

is subject to the Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare

Krishna; Om Tat Sat:

gjlist-http://www.goravani.comYour use of

is subject to the