Guest guest Posted October 11, 2002 Report Share Posted October 11, 2002 Dear Indrani Please forgive me if I am speaking out of turn here but I have done a lot of thinking about divine orchestration. The way I see it is all life is channeled through an evolutionary balancing system for the purpose of experiencing the evolution of life in it's self. There is a fine line of balance that creates life. A good example of this is hot and cold. There are planets out there that are millions of degrees hotter then ours and there is also planets that are beyond our comprehension of what real cold is. So there is only about a 150 degree spread were life can exist. And there is a smaller spread were we as living beings are comfortable. Your wondering what this has it do with divine intervention/orchestration? Well, All of life is about balance. To hot you'll suffer, to cold you'll suffer, to fast you'll suffer, to slow you'll suffer, to much food, you'll suffer, not enough food you'll suffer. If you go to the far end of any opposite you will suffer! So it's only a matter of time before you get tired of trying to figure out what's to much and what's to little in your life and you turn all your decision making over to your creator.The only real choice you have is how long are you willing to suffer. Another way of looking at it is that all life/nature/universe is one big beautiful picture. It takes everything (pieces to this puzzle) to make this picture complete. Including you and me. Now you can either complement this picture, or you can detract from this picture. If you chose to detract from this picture it makes the whole picture/matrix uncomfortable. Or when one person rocks the boat everybody feels it eventually. Well Guess what! It's all the other people's job to tell this guy to sit back down and help balance so we all can all have peace. Divine intervention my friend! Bless you! .... Noel .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2002 Report Share Posted October 12, 2002 What I meant was--- Arjuna did not see the death of his son Abhimanyu(even though he saw the whole battle before it happened) because Abhimanyu was destined to die a brutal death.Everything was predestined. Predetermination is the very basis of astrology.Or else astrology would have no meaning. In this materially conditioned state one is forced to go along with the divine flow.Instead of being uncomfortable with it- one should develop acceptance as that will bring you closer to divinity. Yours truly, vivek. --- idasgupta98 <idasgupta98 wrote: > I do understand what you are talking about. but my > question was a bit > different. I am inherently uncomfortable with divine > intervention our > and perception of it, be it in Jyotish or anything. > as such, as I am > learning jyotish, if you tell me that I have to > perceive the truth > that Krishna has determined, I am at a loss. So > while I understand > that Nicolas or Visti or you might be able to have > the heightened > sense of action and reaction that I don't, it still > handicaps me in > terms of my supposed knowledge in deciphering > charts. because this is > extraneous information that I just don't have. > > please, I am not doubting you or anyone or anything > else. I am just > saying that it is difficult for me to grasp the > "hows" of this kind > of analysis. > > thanks for your time. > > indrani. > > gjlist, vivek <keviv90> wrote: > > Hello idg and others, > > There is a verse in the Bhagvad Gita which goes > > something like this--- "Bewildered by the three > modes > > of nature,the soul thinks itself to be the doer of > > activities which are in actuality carried out by > > material nature.In reality,the self does nothing > nor > > causes anything to be done" > > Now someone may ask-- how come I am not the doer > of > > activity?I have a choice regarding what I do.Right > now > > I am in a position to choose-- I can raise my left > > hand > > or right hand,I can either stand up or sit > down,etc. > > The answer is that it is your mind that is > deciding. > > But you are not the mind.You are the soul,the > > perceiver, who is different from the mind which is > the > > subtle body. > > What the gross body and subtle body will do is > > predestined.the soul just experiences. > > That you will become an astrologer or not is also > > predestined. > > I remember one story regarding PREDETERMINISM. > > There was a king whose son,the prince was about to > > return home after finishing his education at a > > gurukul. > > It so happened that long back a sage had > prophesised > > that the king will die at his sons hand.The period > > when > > that will happen was also predicted.It coincided > with > > the time when the prince would be back. > > The king was very scared-- so he decided to stay > away > > from his kingdom till the danger period was over. > At > > that time a sports festival was going on in a > > neighbouring kingdom and the king decided to go > there > > and watch the games. > > It so happened that the prince on his return > journey > > came to know about the prophecy.Of course he > wouldnt > > kill the king deliberately-- but fearing some sort > of > > accident,he decided to delay his return till the > > period was over. > > The prince was good at sports and he had heard > about > > the festival.so he decided to try his hand at the > > games > > .One of the games he participated in was a spear > > throwing contest.He missed the mark and the spear > went > > into the crowds.Guess whom it killed? > > Best regards, > > vivek. > > > > > > --- idasgupta98 <idasgupta98> wrote: > > > "Krsna allowed Arjuna saw the whole battle of > > > Kuruksetra before it > > > happened but he did not see the death of his son > > > Abhimanya because if > > > he had he would have been able to prevent it. So > > > astrolgers may also > > > be limited in seeing the future." > > > > > > > > > does this mean that we all (incl. astrologers) > see > > > only what we want > > > to see and somehow subconsciously maybe, ignore > the > > > obvious? > > > > > > that is indeed fearsome. and not very > encouraging. > > > > > > idg. > > > > > > gjlist, "Piotr Tomiak" <param@p...> > > > wrote: > > > > Dear Nicholas, > > > > > > > > Nice written- I really enjoyed it: > > > > > > > > "Ultimately it is up to Krsna what the > astrologer > > > can see or cannot > > > see > > > > because in Bhagavad Gita Krsna says that from > him > > > comes knowledge , > > > memory > > > > and forgetfulness . So if an astrologer > aspires to > > > be succeeful and > > > helpful > > > > to his/her clients some sadhana is advised as > well > > > as being careful > > > to keep > > > > the consciousness Satvic which is pleasing to > > > Krishna . I have > > > mentioned > > > > before that in Bhagavad Gita Krsna allowed > Arjuna > > > saw the whole > > > battle of > > > > Kuruksetra before it happened but he did not > see > > > the death of his > > > son > > > > Abhimanya because if he had he would have been > > > able to prevent > > > it .So > > > > astrolgers may also be limited in seeing the > > > future ." > > > > > > > > Best wishes > > > > Paramjyoti dasa > > > > > > > > > > > > Nicholas [jyotish108@h...] > > > > Tuesday, October 08, 2002 11:09 PM > > > > gjlist > > > > Re: [GJ] Help needed: Ketu Mahadasha > - > > > Visti > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Jay > > > > > > > > > > You wrote: <"astrologer directs the client > > > towards the > > > potentialities "> > > > > > Me: Indeed this is the major target for > a > > > serious astrologer > > > but how > > > > > would you explain that one astrologer will > > > advice his client due > > > to some > > > > > specific indications in a chart HE produced, > > > while another will > > > see no > > > > issue > > > > > there due to the use of a different ayanamsa > (or > > > any other > > > disputable > > > > > factor) which will place planet(s) in a > > > different > > > house/sign/Nakshatra > > > > etc. > > > > > etc. ... ? > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > This is probably another long discussion > subject > > > but it is an > > > excellent > > > > query and good to keep in mind how jyotish > fits > > > into the overall > > > scheme of > > > > things . > > > > > > > > . My reply would be that there is a lot in a > chart > > > ,just as their > > > is a lot > > > > to a person and their lives .So looking at a > chart > > > one astrologer > > > will see > > > > something and another astrologer will see > > > something else .There is > > > the > > > > individuality of the astrologer also .There > are a > > > lot of techniques > > > out > > > > there and some jyotishis prefer some and some > > > prefer others .And > > > some are > > > > good with some and good with others . There > are > > > different > > > perspectives of > > > > different astrologers to also like the famous > half > > > full half empty > > > example . > > > > Occasionally my own chart comes up for > discussion > > > and I am often > > > surprised > > > > (although I shouldn't be ! ) that someone > comes up > > > with something > > > that I'd > > > > never seen or noticed before . The > understanding > > > of a chart tends > > > to grow > > > > over time .Another point here is that the > > > astrologer himself is > > > subject to > > > > karma ,dashas and transits and may have better > and > > > weaker days and > > > periods . > > > > > > > > Ultimately it is up to Krsna what the > astrologer > > > can see or cannot > > > see > > > > because in Bhagavad Gita Krsna says that from > him > > > comes knowledge , > > > memory > > > > and forgetfulness . So if an astrologer > aspires to > > > be succeeful and > > > helpful > > > > to his/her clients some sadhana is advised as > well > > > as being careful > > > to keep > > > > the consciousness Satvic which is pleasing to > > > Krishna . I have > > > mentioned > > > > before that in Bhagavad Gita Krsna allowed > Arjuna > > > saw the whole > > > battle of > > > > Kuruksetra before it happened but he did not > see > > > the death of his > > > son > > > > Abhimanya because if he had he would have been > > > able to prevent > > > it .So > > > > astrolgers may also be limited in seeing the > > > future . > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > > > Nicholas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om > Tat > > > Sat > > > > : > > > gjlist-@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om > Tat > > > Sat > > > : > > > gjlist-@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________ > __ > > Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try > the new, TV. > > visit http://in.tv. > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat > Sat > : > gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > ______________________ Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, TV. visit http://in.tv. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2002 Report Share Posted October 15, 2002 I understand what you are saying. I understood it before as well. predestination... predeterminism... acceptance of what will be. what SHOULD be. however, that still does not explain it all away. just as in palmistry, the lines supposedly change as life progresses, the effects of transits should alter predetermined aspects of the chart, no? I feel ill-equipped to comment on the spiritual aspects of this, though. I just know it has to be figured in there somewhere in the equation. or are we saying the transits are predetermined (as to their effects on charts) as well? anyway, many thanks to everyone for my edification. idg. gjlist, vivek <keviv90> wrote: > What I meant was--- Arjuna did not see the death of > his son Abhimanyu(even though he saw the whole battle > before it happened) because Abhimanyu was destined to > die a brutal death.Everything was predestined. > Predetermination is the very basis of astrology.Or > else > astrology would have no meaning. > In this materially conditioned state one is forced to > go along with the divine flow.Instead of being > uncomfortable with it- one should develop acceptance > as that will bring you closer to divinity. > Yours truly, > vivek. > > --- idasgupta98 <idasgupta98> wrote: > I do > understand what you are talking about. but my > > question was a bit > > different. I am inherently uncomfortable with divine > > intervention our > > and perception of it, be it in Jyotish or anything. > > as such, as I am > > learning jyotish, if you tell me that I have to > > perceive the truth > > that Krishna has determined, I am at a loss. So > > while I understand > > that Nicolas or Visti or you might be able to have > > the heightened > > sense of action and reaction that I don't, it still > > handicaps me in > > terms of my supposed knowledge in deciphering > > charts. because this is > > extraneous information that I just don't have. > > > > please, I am not doubting you or anyone or anything > > else. I am just > > saying that it is difficult for me to grasp the > > "hows" of this kind > > of analysis. > > > > thanks for your time. > > > > indrani. > > > > gjlist, vivek <keviv90> wrote: > > > Hello idg and others, > > > There is a verse in the Bhagvad Gita which goes > > > something like this--- "Bewildered by the three > > modes > > > of nature,the soul thinks itself to be the doer of > > > activities which are in actuality carried out by > > > material nature.In reality,the self does nothing > > nor > > > causes anything to be done" > > > Now someone may ask-- how come I am not the doer > > of > > > activity?I have a choice regarding what I do.Right > > now > > > I am in a position to choose-- I can raise my left > > > hand > > > or right hand,I can either stand up or sit > > down,etc. > > > The answer is that it is your mind that is > > deciding. > > > But you are not the mind.You are the soul,the > > > perceiver, who is different from the mind which is > > the > > > subtle body. > > > What the gross body and subtle body will do is > > > predestined.the soul just experiences. > > > That you will become an astrologer or not is also > > > predestined. > > > I remember one story regarding PREDETERMINISM. > > > There was a king whose son,the prince was about to > > > return home after finishing his education at a > > > gurukul. > > > It so happened that long back a sage had > > prophesised > > > that the king will die at his sons hand.The period > > > when > > > that will happen was also predicted.It coincided > > with > > > the time when the prince would be back. > > > The king was very scared-- so he decided to stay > > away > > > from his kingdom till the danger period was over. > > At > > > that time a sports festival was going on in a > > > neighbouring kingdom and the king decided to go > > there > > > and watch the games. > > > It so happened that the prince on his return > > journey > > > came to know about the prophecy.Of course he > > wouldnt > > > kill the king deliberately-- but fearing some sort > > of > > > accident,he decided to delay his return till the > > > period was over. > > > The prince was good at sports and he had heard > > about > > > the festival.so he decided to try his hand at the > > > games > > > .One of the games he participated in was a spear > > > throwing contest.He missed the mark and the spear > > went > > > into the crowds.Guess whom it killed? > > > Best regards, > > > vivek. > > > > > > > > > --- idasgupta98 <idasgupta98> wrote: > > > > "Krsna allowed Arjuna saw the whole battle of > > > > Kuruksetra before it > > > > happened but he did not see the death of his son > > > > Abhimanya because if > > > > he had he would have been able to prevent it. So > > > > astrolgers may also > > > > be limited in seeing the future." > > > > > > > > > > > > does this mean that we all (incl. astrologers) > > see > > > > only what we want > > > > to see and somehow subconsciously maybe, ignore > > the > > > > obvious? > > > > > > > > that is indeed fearsome. and not very > > encouraging. > > > > > > > > idg. > > > > > > > > gjlist, "Piotr Tomiak" <param@p...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > Dear Nicholas, > > > > > > > > > > Nice written- I really enjoyed it: > > > > > > > > > > "Ultimately it is up to Krsna what the > > astrologer > > > > can see or cannot > > > > see > > > > > because in Bhagavad Gita Krsna says that from > > him > > > > comes knowledge , > > > > memory > > > > > and forgetfulness . So if an astrologer > > aspires to > > > > be succeeful and > > > > helpful > > > > > to his/her clients some sadhana is advised as > > well > > > > as being careful > > > > to keep > > > > > the consciousness Satvic which is pleasing to > > > > Krishna . I have > > > > mentioned > > > > > before that in Bhagavad Gita Krsna allowed > > Arjuna > > > > saw the whole > > > > battle of > > > > > Kuruksetra before it happened but he did not > > see > > > > the death of his > > > > son > > > > > Abhimanya because if he had he would have been > > > > able to prevent > > > > it .So > > > > > astrolgers may also be limited in seeing the > > > > future ." > > > > > > > > > > Best wishes > > > > > Paramjyoti dasa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nicholas [jyotish108@h...] > > > > > Tuesday, October 08, 2002 11:09 PM > > > > > gjlist > > > > > Re: [GJ] Help needed: Ketu Mahadasha > > - > > > > Visti > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Jay > > > > > > > > > > > > You wrote: <"astrologer directs the client > > > > towards the > > > > potentialities "> > > > > > > Me: Indeed this is the major target for > > a > > > > serious astrologer > > > > but how > > > > > > would you explain that one astrologer will > > > > advice his client due > > > > to some > > > > > > specific indications in a chart HE produced, > > > > while another will > > > > see no > > > > > issue > > > > > > there due to the use of a different ayanamsa > > (or > > > > any other > > > > disputable > > > > > > factor) which will place planet(s) in a > > > > different > > > > house/sign/Nakshatra > > > > > etc. > > > > > > etc. ... ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > This is probably another long discussion > > subject > > > > but it is an > > > > excellent > > > > > query and good to keep in mind how jyotish > > fits > > > > into the overall > > > > scheme of > > > > > things . > > > > > > > > > > . My reply would be that there is a lot in a > > chart > > > > ,just as their > > > > is a lot > > > > > to a person and their lives .So looking at a > > chart > > > > one astrologer > > > > will see > > > > > something and another astrologer will see > > > > something else .There is > > > > the > > > > > individuality of the astrologer also .There > > are a > > > > lot of techniques > > > > out > > > > > there and some jyotishis prefer some and some > > > > prefer others .And > > > > some are > > > > > good with some and good with others . There > > are > > > > different > > > > perspectives of > > > > > different astrologers to also like the famous > > half > > > > full half empty > > > > example . > > > > > Occasionally my own chart comes up for > > discussion > > > > and I am often > > > > surprised > > > > > (although I shouldn't be ! ) that someone > > comes up > > > > with something > > > > that I'd > > > > > never seen or noticed before . The > > understanding > > > > of a chart tends > > > > to grow > > > > > over time .Another point here is that the > > > > astrologer himself is > > > > subject to > > > > > karma ,dashas and transits and may have better > > and > > > > weaker days and > > > > periods . > > > > > > > > > > Ultimately it is up to Krsna what the > > astrologer > > > > can see or cannot > > > > see > > > > > because in Bhagavad Gita Krsna says that from > > him > > > > comes knowledge , > > > > memory > > > > > and forgetfulness . So if an astrologer > > aspires to > > > > be succeeful and > > > > helpful > > > > > to his/her clients some sadhana is advised as > > well > > > > as being careful > > > > to keep > > > > > the consciousness Satvic which is pleasing to > > > > Krishna . I have > > > > mentioned > > > > > before that in Bhagavad Gita Krsna allowed > > Arjuna > > > > saw the whole > > > > battle of > > > > > Kuruksetra before it happened but he did not > > see > > > > the death of his > > > > son > > > > > Abhimanya because if he had he would have been > > > > able to prevent > > > > it .So > > > > > astrolgers may also be limited in seeing the > > > > future . > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > > > > Nicholas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om > > Tat > > > > Sat > > > > > : > > > > gjlist-@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om > > Tat > > > > Sat > > > > : > > > > gjlist-@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________ > > __ > > > Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try > > the new, TV. > > > visit http://in.tv. > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat > > Sat > > : > > gjlist-@e... > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > ____________________ __ > Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, TV. > visit http://in.tv. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2002 Report Share Posted October 15, 2002 Dear Idasgupta Life is an inconceivable mix of free will and predestination . Generally the more one cultivates Satva the more his/her free will increases .. it is certainly complex and difficult to understand fully but I think you understand it essentially . Nicholas - "idasgupta98" <idasgupta98 <gjlist> Tuesday, October 15, 2002 5:30 PM [GJ] Re: Predeterminism > I understand what you are saying. I understood it before as well. > predestination... predeterminism... acceptance of what will be. what > SHOULD be. however, that still does not explain it all away. just as > in palmistry, the lines supposedly change as life progresses, the > effects of transits should alter predetermined aspects of the chart, > no? I feel ill-equipped to comment on the spiritual aspects of this, > though. I just know it has to be figured in there somewhere in the > equation. or are we saying the transits are predetermined (as to > their effects on charts) as well? > > anyway, many thanks to everyone for my edification. > > idg. > > gjlist, vivek <keviv90> wrote: > > What I meant was--- Arjuna did not see the death of > > his son Abhimanyu(even though he saw the whole battle > > before it happened) because Abhimanyu was destined to > > die a brutal death.Everything was predestined. > > Predetermination is the very basis of astrology.Or > > else > > astrology would have no meaning. > > In this materially conditioned state one is forced to > > go along with the divine flow.Instead of being > > uncomfortable with it- one should develop acceptance > > as that will bring you closer to divinity. > > Yours truly, > > vivek. > > > > --- idasgupta98 <idasgupta98> wrote: > I do > > understand what you are talking about. but my > > > question was a bit > > > different. I am inherently uncomfortable with divine > > > intervention our > > > and perception of it, be it in Jyotish or anything. > > > as such, as I am > > > learning jyotish, if you tell me that I have to > > > perceive the truth > > > that Krishna has determined, I am at a loss. So > > > while I understand > > > that Nicolas or Visti or you might be able to have > > > the heightened > > > sense of action and reaction that I don't, it still > > > handicaps me in > > > terms of my supposed knowledge in deciphering > > > charts. because this is > > > extraneous information that I just don't have. > > > > > > please, I am not doubting you or anyone or anything > > > else. I am just > > > saying that it is difficult for me to grasp the > > > "hows" of this kind > > > of analysis. > > > > > > thanks for your time. > > > > > > indrani. > > > > > > gjlist, vivek <keviv90> wrote: > > > > Hello idg and others, > > > > There is a verse in the Bhagvad Gita which goes > > > > something like this--- "Bewildered by the three > > > modes > > > > of nature,the soul thinks itself to be the doer of > > > > activities which are in actuality carried out by > > > > material nature.In reality,the self does nothing > > > nor > > > > causes anything to be done" > > > > Now someone may ask-- how come I am not the doer > > > of > > > > activity?I have a choice regarding what I do.Right > > > now > > > > I am in a position to choose-- I can raise my left > > > > hand > > > > or right hand,I can either stand up or sit > > > down,etc. > > > > The answer is that it is your mind that is > > > deciding. > > > > But you are not the mind.You are the soul,the > > > > perceiver, who is different from the mind which is > > > the > > > > subtle body. > > > > What the gross body and subtle body will do is > > > > predestined.the soul just experiences. > > > > That you will become an astrologer or not is also > > > > predestined. > > > > I remember one story regarding PREDETERMINISM. > > > > There was a king whose son,the prince was about to > > > > return home after finishing his education at a > > > > gurukul. > > > > It so happened that long back a sage had > > > prophesised > > > > that the king will die at his sons hand.The period > > > > when > > > > that will happen was also predicted.It coincided > > > with > > > > the time when the prince would be back. > > > > The king was very scared-- so he decided to stay > > > away > > > > from his kingdom till the danger period was over. > > > At > > > > that time a sports festival was going on in a > > > > neighbouring kingdom and the king decided to go > > > there > > > > and watch the games. > > > > It so happened that the prince on his return > > > journey > > > > came to know about the prophecy.Of course he > > > wouldnt > > > > kill the king deliberately-- but fearing some sort > > > of > > > > accident,he decided to delay his return till the > > > > period was over. > > > > The prince was good at sports and he had heard > > > about > > > > the festival.so he decided to try his hand at the > > > > games > > > > .One of the games he participated in was a spear > > > > throwing contest.He missed the mark and the spear > > > went > > > > into the crowds.Guess whom it killed? > > > > Best regards, > > > > vivek. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- idasgupta98 <idasgupta98> wrote: > > > > > "Krsna allowed Arjuna saw the whole battle of > > > > > Kuruksetra before it > > > > > happened but he did not see the death of his son > > > > > Abhimanya because if > > > > > he had he would have been able to prevent it. So > > > > > astrolgers may also > > > > > be limited in seeing the future." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > does this mean that we all (incl. astrologers) > > > see > > > > > only what we want > > > > > to see and somehow subconsciously maybe, ignore > > > the > > > > > obvious? > > > > > > > > > > that is indeed fearsome. and not very > > > encouraging. > > > > > > > > > > idg. > > > > > > > > > > gjlist, "Piotr Tomiak" <param@p...> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Nicholas, > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice written- I really enjoyed it: > > > > > > > > > > > > "Ultimately it is up to Krsna what the > > > astrologer > > > > > can see or cannot > > > > > see > > > > > > because in Bhagavad Gita Krsna says that from > > > him > > > > > comes knowledge , > > > > > memory > > > > > > and forgetfulness . So if an astrologer > > > aspires to > > > > > be succeeful and > > > > > helpful > > > > > > to his/her clients some sadhana is advised as > > > well > > > > > as being careful > > > > > to keep > > > > > > the consciousness Satvic which is pleasing to > > > > > Krishna . I have > > > > > mentioned > > > > > > before that in Bhagavad Gita Krsna allowed > > > Arjuna > > > > > saw the whole > > > > > battle of > > > > > > Kuruksetra before it happened but he did not > > > see > > > > > the death of his > > > > > son > > > > > > Abhimanya because if he had he would have been > > > > > able to prevent > > > > > it .So > > > > > > astrolgers may also be limited in seeing the > > > > > future ." > > > > > > > > > > > > Best wishes > > > > > > Paramjyoti dasa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nicholas [jyotish108@h...] > > > > > > Tuesday, October 08, 2002 11:09 PM > > > > > > gjlist > > > > > > Re: [GJ] Help needed: Ketu Mahadasha > > > - > > > > > Visti > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Jay > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You wrote: <"astrologer directs the client > > > > > towards the > > > > > potentialities "> > > > > > > > Me: Indeed this is the major target for > > > a > > > > > serious astrologer > > > > > but how > > > > > > > would you explain that one astrologer will > > > > > advice his client due > > > > > to some > > > > > > > specific indications in a chart HE produced, > > > > > while another will > > > > > see no > > > > > > issue > > > > > > > there due to the use of a different ayanamsa > > > (or > > > > > any other > > > > > disputable > > > > > > > factor) which will place planet(s) in a > > > > > different > > > > > house/sign/Nakshatra > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > etc. ... ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > > > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > > > This is probably another long discussion > > > subject > > > > > but it is an > > > > > excellent > > > > > > query and good to keep in mind how jyotish > > > fits > > > > > into the overall > > > > > scheme of > > > > > > things . > > > > > > > > > > > > . My reply would be that there is a lot in a > > > chart > > > > > ,just as their > > > > > is a lot > > > > > > to a person and their lives .So looking at a > > > chart > > > > > one astrologer > > > > > will see > > > > > > something and another astrologer will see > > > > > something else .There is > > > > > the > > > > > > individuality of the astrologer also .There > > > are a > > > > > lot of techniques > > > > > out > > > > > > there and some jyotishis prefer some and some > > > > > prefer others .And > > > > > some are > > > > > > good with some and good with others . There > > > are > > > > > different > > > > > perspectives of > > > > > > different astrologers to also like the famous > > > half > > > > > full half empty > > > > > example . > > > > > > Occasionally my own chart comes up for > > > discussion > > > > > and I am often > > > > > surprised > > > > > > (although I shouldn't be ! ) that someone > > > comes up > > > > > with something > > > > > that I'd > > > > > > never seen or noticed before . The > > > understanding > > > > > of a chart tends > > > > > to grow > > > > > > over time .Another point here is that the > > > > > astrologer himself is > > > > > subject to > > > > > > karma ,dashas and transits and may have better > > > and > > > > > weaker days and > > > > > periods . > > > > > > > > > > > > Ultimately it is up to Krsna what the > > > astrologer > > > > > can see or cannot > > > > > see > > > > > > because in Bhagavad Gita Krsna says that from > > > him > > > > > comes knowledge , > > > > > memory > > > > > > and forgetfulness . So if an astrologer > > > aspires to > > > > > be succeeful and > > > > > helpful > > > > > > to his/her clients some sadhana is advised as > > > well > > > > > as being careful > > > > > to keep > > > > > > the consciousness Satvic which is pleasing to > > > > > Krishna . I have > > > > > mentioned > > > > > > before that in Bhagavad Gita Krsna allowed > > > Arjuna > > > > > saw the whole > > > > > battle of > > > > > > Kuruksetra before it happened but he did not > > > see > > > > > the death of his > > > > > son > > > > > > Abhimanya because if he had he would have been > > > > > able to prevent > > > > > it .So > > > > > > astrolgers may also be limited in seeing the > > > > > future . > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > > > > > Nicholas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om > > > Tat > > > > > Sat > > > > > > : > > > > > gjlist-@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om > > > Tat > > > > > Sat > > > > > : > > > > > gjlist-@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________ > > > __ > > > > Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try > > > the new, TV. > > > > visit http://in.tv. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat > > > Sat > > > : > > > gjlist-@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________ > __ > > Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, TV. > > visit http://in.tv. > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > : gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2002 Report Share Posted October 15, 2002 Dear Ida I agree with you. One way to deal with it in astrology terms is to begin the reading of a chart by asking questions to see where the client already has come and from there one can guide him. I believe that every dasha and transit is an educational opportunity. We learn through hardship how to prepare but also how to surrender. Likewise, we learn through the more favorable transits how to be more open to the gift that are all around us daily, but which me may be unable to see under more stressful transits and times. We learn from times of anxiety how to deal with anxiety in the future and from time of peace what it feels like to be anxiety free. Anyway, the chart shows the lessons we will learn and the gifts we are given. The individual can tell you quickly where he is on the journey. I hope this is helpful cynthia - "idasgupta98" <idasgupta98 <gjlist> Tuesday, October 15, 2002 2:30 AM [GJ] Re: Predeterminism > I understand what you are saying. I understood it before as well. > predestination... predeterminism... acceptance of what will be. what > SHOULD be. however, that still does not explain it all away. just as > in palmistry, the lines supposedly change as life progresses, the > effects of transits should alter predetermined aspects of the chart, > no? I feel ill-equipped to comment on the spiritual aspects of this, > though. I just know it has to be figured in there somewhere in the > equation. or are we saying the transits are predetermined (as to > their effects on charts) as well? > > anyway, many thanks to everyone for my edification. > > idg. > > gjlist, vivek <keviv90> wrote: > > What I meant was--- Arjuna did not see the death of > > his son Abhimanyu(even though he saw the whole battle > > before it happened) because Abhimanyu was destined to > > die a brutal death.Everything was predestined. > > Predetermination is the very basis of astrology.Or > > else > > astrology would have no meaning. > > In this materially conditioned state one is forced to > > go along with the divine flow.Instead of being > > uncomfortable with it- one should develop acceptance > > as that will bring you closer to divinity. > > Yours truly, > > vivek. > > > > --- idasgupta98 <idasgupta98> wrote: > I do > > understand what you are talking about. but my > > > question was a bit > > > different. I am inherently uncomfortable with divine > > > intervention our > > > and perception of it, be it in Jyotish or anything. > > > as such, as I am > > > learning jyotish, if you tell me that I have to > > > perceive the truth > > > that Krishna has determined, I am at a loss. So > > > while I understand > > > that Nicolas or Visti or you might be able to have > > > the heightened > > > sense of action and reaction that I don't, it still > > > handicaps me in > > > terms of my supposed knowledge in deciphering > > > charts. because this is > > > extraneous information that I just don't have. > > > > > > please, I am not doubting you or anyone or anything > > > else. I am just > > > saying that it is difficult for me to grasp the > > > "hows" of this kind > > > of analysis. > > > > > > thanks for your time. > > > > > > indrani. > > > > > > gjlist, vivek <keviv90> wrote: > > > > Hello idg and others, > > > > There is a verse in the Bhagvad Gita which goes > > > > something like this--- "Bewildered by the three > > > modes > > > > of nature,the soul thinks itself to be the doer of > > > > activities which are in actuality carried out by > > > > material nature.In reality,the self does nothing > > > nor > > > > causes anything to be done" > > > > Now someone may ask-- how come I am not the doer > > > of > > > > activity?I have a choice regarding what I do.Right > > > now > > > > I am in a position to choose-- I can raise my left > > > > hand > > > > or right hand,I can either stand up or sit > > > down,etc. > > > > The answer is that it is your mind that is > > > deciding. > > > > But you are not the mind.You are the soul,the > > > > perceiver, who is different from the mind which is > > > the > > > > subtle body. > > > > What the gross body and subtle body will do is > > > > predestined.the soul just experiences. > > > > That you will become an astrologer or not is also > > > > predestined. > > > > I remember one story regarding PREDETERMINISM. > > > > There was a king whose son,the prince was about to > > > > return home after finishing his education at a > > > > gurukul. > > > > It so happened that long back a sage had > > > prophesised > > > > that the king will die at his sons hand.The period > > > > when > > > > that will happen was also predicted.It coincided > > > with > > > > the time when the prince would be back. > > > > The king was very scared-- so he decided to stay > > > away > > > > from his kingdom till the danger period was over. > > > At > > > > that time a sports festival was going on in a > > > > neighbouring kingdom and the king decided to go > > > there > > > > and watch the games. > > > > It so happened that the prince on his return > > > journey > > > > came to know about the prophecy.Of course he > > > wouldnt > > > > kill the king deliberately-- but fearing some sort > > > of > > > > accident,he decided to delay his return till the > > > > period was over. > > > > The prince was good at sports and he had heard > > > about > > > > the festival.so he decided to try his hand at the > > > > games > > > > .One of the games he participated in was a spear > > > > throwing contest.He missed the mark and the spear > > > went > > > > into the crowds.Guess whom it killed? > > > > Best regards, > > > > vivek. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- idasgupta98 <idasgupta98> wrote: > > > > > "Krsna allowed Arjuna saw the whole battle of > > > > > Kuruksetra before it > > > > > happened but he did not see the death of his son > > > > > Abhimanya because if > > > > > he had he would have been able to prevent it. So > > > > > astrolgers may also > > > > > be limited in seeing the future." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > does this mean that we all (incl. astrologers) > > > see > > > > > only what we want > > > > > to see and somehow subconsciously maybe, ignore > > > the > > > > > obvious? > > > > > > > > > > that is indeed fearsome. and not very > > > encouraging. > > > > > > > > > > idg. > > > > > > > > > > gjlist, "Piotr Tomiak" <param@p...> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Nicholas, > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice written- I really enjoyed it: > > > > > > > > > > > > "Ultimately it is up to Krsna what the > > > astrologer > > > > > can see or cannot > > > > > see > > > > > > because in Bhagavad Gita Krsna says that from > > > him > > > > > comes knowledge , > > > > > memory > > > > > > and forgetfulness . So if an astrologer > > > aspires to > > > > > be succeeful and > > > > > helpful > > > > > > to his/her clients some sadhana is advised as > > > well > > > > > as being careful > > > > > to keep > > > > > > the consciousness Satvic which is pleasing to > > > > > Krishna . I have > > > > > mentioned > > > > > > before that in Bhagavad Gita Krsna allowed > > > Arjuna > > > > > saw the whole > > > > > battle of > > > > > > Kuruksetra before it happened but he did not > > > see > > > > > the death of his > > > > > son > > > > > > Abhimanya because if he had he would have been > > > > > able to prevent > > > > > it .So > > > > > > astrolgers may also be limited in seeing the > > > > > future ." > > > > > > > > > > > > Best wishes > > > > > > Paramjyoti dasa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nicholas [jyotish108@h...] > > > > > > Tuesday, October 08, 2002 11:09 PM > > > > > > gjlist > > > > > > Re: [GJ] Help needed: Ketu Mahadasha > > > - > > > > > Visti > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Jay > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You wrote: <"astrologer directs the client > > > > > towards the > > > > > potentialities "> > > > > > > > Me: Indeed this is the major target for > > > a > > > > > serious astrologer > > > > > but how > > > > > > > would you explain that one astrologer will > > > > > advice his client due > > > > > to some > > > > > > > specific indications in a chart HE produced, > > > > > while another will > > > > > see no > > > > > > issue > > > > > > > there due to the use of a different ayanamsa > > > (or > > > > > any other > > > > > disputable > > > > > > > factor) which will place planet(s) in a > > > > > different > > > > > house/sign/Nakshatra > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > etc. ... ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > > > > > > Jay > > > > > > > > > > > > This is probably another long discussion > > > subject > > > > > but it is an > > > > > excellent > > > > > > query and good to keep in mind how jyotish > > > fits > > > > > into the overall > > > > > scheme of > > > > > > things . > > > > > > > > > > > > . My reply would be that there is a lot in a > > > chart > > > > > ,just as their > > > > > is a lot > > > > > > to a person and their lives .So looking at a > > > chart > > > > > one astrologer > > > > > will see > > > > > > something and another astrologer will see > > > > > something else .There is > > > > > the > > > > > > individuality of the astrologer also .There > > > are a > > > > > lot of techniques > > > > > out > > > > > > there and some jyotishis prefer some and some > > > > > prefer others .And > > > > > some are > > > > > > good with some and good with others . There > > > are > > > > > different > > > > > perspectives of > > > > > > different astrologers to also like the famous > > > half > > > > > full half empty > > > > > example . > > > > > > Occasionally my own chart comes up for > > > discussion > > > > > and I am often > > > > > surprised > > > > > > (although I shouldn't be ! ) that someone > > > comes up > > > > > with something > > > > > that I'd > > > > > > never seen or noticed before . The > > > understanding > > > > > of a chart tends > > > > > to grow > > > > > > over time .Another point here is that the > > > > > astrologer himself is > > > > > subject to > > > > > > karma ,dashas and transits and may have better > > > and > > > > > weaker days and > > > > > periods . > > > > > > > > > > > > Ultimately it is up to Krsna what the > > > astrologer > > > > > can see or cannot > > > > > see > > > > > > because in Bhagavad Gita Krsna says that from > > > him > > > > > comes knowledge , > > > > > memory > > > > > > and forgetfulness . So if an astrologer > > > aspires to > > > > > be succeeful and > > > > > helpful > > > > > > to his/her clients some sadhana is advised as > > > well > > > > > as being careful > > > > > to keep > > > > > > the consciousness Satvic which is pleasing to > > > > > Krishna . I have > > > > > mentioned > > > > > > before that in Bhagavad Gita Krsna allowed > > > Arjuna > > > > > saw the whole > > > > > battle of > > > > > > Kuruksetra before it happened but he did not > > > see > > > > > the death of his > > > > > son > > > > > > Abhimanya because if he had he would have been > > > > > able to prevent > > > > > it .So > > > > > > astrolgers may also be limited in seeing the > > > > > future . > > > > > > > > > > > > Kind regards > > > > > > Nicholas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om > > > Tat > > > > > Sat > > > > > > : > > > > > gjlist-@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om > > > Tat > > > > > Sat > > > > > : > > > > > gjlist-@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________ > > > __ > > > > Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try > > > the new, TV. > > > > visit http://in.tv. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat > > > Sat > > > : > > > gjlist-@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________ > __ > > Missed your favourite TV serial last night? Try the new, TV. > > visit http://in.tv. > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > : gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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