Guest guest Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 This prevalent hawkish tactic does not in any way give credit for the other ways people can serve their country. I have been a schoolteacher in the inner city, and let me tell you, all of the hackneyed mataphors about teachers being in the trenches persist only because they are so close to home. It can be very hazardous work, there is typically little support and _no one_ has your back (those who bemoan teachers unions -- and I am in a way one such critic of the abuses often bound up in such associations --often have little clue why they are desperately needed, even if in practice they are often corrupt and inept at protecting passionate, dedicated teachers). The hawk will then say one can't compare *anything* else to military service. I will respond that that depends on what the service being compared is (on that side of the comparison) and whether the military service involves combat (on the other side). (BTW, Most of the people in Bush's adminstration supporting this war have little or no combat experience [bush and Cheney included!]) The *ultimate* litmus test for being a true American is whether one is committed to truth and justice just for the insiders (either within the ambit of the military or generally the US) or for everyone. And getting the results back on *this* test is no simple matter. That is why I can post this message on the list with no rancor: This list will not judge our perspectives and actions; history and our consciences at the hour of death will. That is a complex matter and much more nuanced than any list or even system of thought can do justice to. Best, JIA In a message dated 10/1/2002 1:01:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, mumin_bey writes: Martin mentioned his military service not as a reference point to the discussion or as a posit to his position, but as a litmus test that I or anyone else must pass in order to even have a comment he felt he was compelled to respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 Hi Tracy, Thanks for your interest. I will take up your assertions/comments one at a time. Let's go: T: Mu, > > I was really starting to think that by the previous > emails, where no-one > actually attacked anyone, that maybe politics could > be discussed between > grown-ups. Yes there was a great deal of > disagreement within the discussions, > but it was civil. That was until your previous > email (Patriotism, Sep 11 and > Martin Michaels) which was obviously directed solely > as an attack at Martin. It > was full of attack, innuendo, and so much self > righteousness that you are the > one that seems to be very racial. MU: Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, no big whup. I have not attacked Martin, I have not called him names or demeaned him, I merely pointed out his inaccuracies in a direct way. I am, however, offended by your offense directed at me, the whole "grown-ups" comment. It is a common tactic to blame the victim whenever he/she brings up a grievance; it is a device that has been used by Whites for decades, if not centuries, as a method of getting around or just not dealing at all with the very real instance of institutional racism of which this very Society still is based. As I have said to Martin, and I will restate it, it never ceases to amaze me how many White folk will go to cloud the issues. Martin mentioned his military service not as a reference point to the discussion or as a posit to his position, but as a litmus test that I or anyone else must pass in order to even have a comment he felt he was compelled to respect. To that assertion and posit, I say, RUBBISH - and I stand on the firm rock of not only my progenitor's service, but that of my people's overall, most of whom had been doing longer than many of Martin's of yours combined. > T: Then in the same letter of attack you want to take > this matter off list. Now I > can understand taking the discussion off list, but > to request such in the same > letter as one full of such content, well it does > seem to read questionable on > what really is the true reason - can be read either > way. It is like you are > expressing that you are allowed to initiate and > attack Martin in front of people > who have been watching a healthy public debate, but > then requesting that you not > be put through the same, please do it in private. > This may not be the case, but > it can and is read that way. MU: You can take it anyway that you wish; what I SAID was, that the discussion had seemed to deviate from the stated purpose of Dasji's list, and that I thought it would be better to take it offlist. I said that out of respect for Dasji, whom I have a great deal of respect for. Trust me, I ain't scared of none of ya'll. T: Do you think that Martin is the only one of the list > that has served their > country and had wondered as to who else within the > discussion had military > experience? I have served - and within Intelligence > - so I also wondered if a > lot of the comments that people were making were > from those that actually had > inside knowledge and experience as to what really > can and does go on as opposed > to what is actually released to the media for the > publics sake. MU: Tracy, I was not the one who tried to "pull rank" to begin with, it was Martin who did that - and - your other rhetorical query is best directed at Martin, who apparently feels that his word is law. And how dare I for actually questioning that, from my point of view? Hmm... > T: Now, before you go off at me for my next comment, > please understand that I have > black heritage. Your email had stated that "Your > People have done more than > ANYONE else to defend what this country obstensibly > stands for, often times, > when this country could not, and > more-often-than-not, WOULD NOT, defend us...I > don't feel I have anything to prove to you, or > anyone else." Yes, the African > Americans have lived through the humility and > indignity of slavery, yes they > have fought, defended, and died for this country, > yes they have been treated > insufferably, murdered, raped, and I could go on and > on and on. At least here > it is in the past. But it is people like you that > cannot leave it there. How > do you expect people to work at trying to live > together in peace, when there are > so many like you that cannot leave the past where it > belongs. You cannot expect > people to pay for what their ancestors have done. > If that were so then why are > we still not irate with Julius Caesar? Attila The > Hun? And many others from the > past thousands of years of world hostilities? MU: No, it is people like YOU that cannot deal with Reality; the reality that Black live with unmitigated Terrorism every day, from the Police, to the School System, to Red Lining and Rent Steering and the rest of it. Black people have, in the overwhelming main, tried to do nothing BUT live with White folk in Peace, and have continually paid the price for it - from being "strange fruit" to being abandoned by their White neighbors whenever they (Black folk) moves on the block. You speak as though everything is equal and fair, when in reality it is not; this is why many Black folks didn't have a problem with Arabs being Racially Profiled, because for once, the cops were passing them up - and - because for once, other groups began to see what REAL LIFE is like for anyone that is deemed by the White majority to be an enemy. All of the achievements Black folks have made over the years/decades/centuries came IN SPITE of Whites, not because of them. Get it right, Black folk struggled for every step of advance, every jot-and-tittle, in ways that no other group in America has. And yes, even today, the inequities continue to exist, and only a delusional individual, that cannot deal with reality would deny this. If White folk had actually delivered on their promise right after Slavery - we would not be talking about this today. But, as History shows, they didn't, in fact they reneged, and that brought in the Era known as Jim Crow. In fact, there is a TV special coming on tonight for the next few nights, called The Rise and Fall (?) of Jim Crow, on PBS. From the looks of your email here, you might want to check that out. > T: African Americans have come a very long way. And > you should be proud of that. MU: I am, thankyouverymuch. As I said, we did because of us raising hell, not because there were so many Whites of goodwill that so wanted to help us out. Again, get the history right. T: African Americans really have more rights than do > any other breed of Americans > now. And yet some of you still are not happy. When > are you going to let the > past stay where it belongs. Maybe you should look > at other countries and how > the whites are treating their blacks. Then you may > see how lucky the African > American really is here. Have you ever even > considered the blacks in other > countries? Maybe you should start with the > Aborigines in Australia. How many > African American complete societies (not just > families) were rounded up and then > ran off a cliff? And the "deaths in custody" issues > - yes America has problems > with the safety and care of blacks in custody - but > it is nothing compared to > the ratio in Australia. The racial discrimination > laws - well I think if you > gave the Australian Aborigines a ride to the USA and > told them how the black > were treated here - I think you would find most of > them not even waiting for the > ride. Australia's problems are not in the past as > it is here where it could be > and should be - they are still struggling. MU: In what way do Black folk have more rights than anyone else? How so? Please explain, with documented examples? How can you even possibly suggest something like that, when people in places like Communist China, in Islamic-controlled Iran, in Castro-Cuba, and elsewhere, knows the kind of hell Blacks catch TODAY? Actually Tracy, what you said wouldn't be all that bad, if, one, it actually existed (and it doesn't) and two, you consider the conditions under which no one else was subject to, other than Black folk. And again, as I said to Martin - no one even dares to suggest to the Jews that they need to "get over it" (the Holocaust), nor do they do that with any other group - only Black folk. Maybe you can speak directly to my Jewish example, compare that to Black folk, and tell me why that is. If such a thing as Anti-Semitism exists, you can best beleive that Anti-Black does too. And you want to look at Black folk around the world, how they would just love it here? You can't be serious. Ok, why don't you go to Amadou Diallo's parents, and tell then what you told me - and let me know how you made out. Just curious - have you ever read the Autobiography of Malcolm X? The Miseducation of The Negro? The Souls of Black Folk? Destruction of Black Civilization? Civilization or Barbarism? Two Nations? The Slave Narratives? The Speeches and Autobiography of Frederick Douglass or Booker T. Washington? Like I said, just wanted to know, since you have pointed out that you have Black heritage. I'd be interested in hearing your anwswers. T: I have great respect for those that help guide their > people to a better life and > are proud to stand up and say "Look how far we have > come", but little for those > that wallow in the tragedies of the generations past > and that tend to blame and > carry their current lives misgivings or lackings, > because of it. MU: And I have open CONTEMPT for people who try to belittle and render inert the legitimate concerns and issues of Black people, that have grown as a DIRECT result of centuries of dehumanization, ill-treatment, rape, robbery and theft. For you to try to suggest what you have in the course of this email, is in its very nature pernicious. > T: Mu, your daddy and your granddaddy may have served > and had a hell of a time by > the racism of their times, but that is exactly that > - their times. And what is > time? Is it not a continuum in which things can and > do change? They do not > serve now so they cannot tell you what it is like to > serve now. Military units > have been around for thousands of years. It is a > harsh reality. Because we are > all human and there will always be conflict. MU: Let me stop you right there - perhaps you can explain to me why many of my friends, who are Marines TODAY, said almost the exact same things, that my Grandaddy and Daddy said to me years ago; why it is that I don't see any Blacks running in droves to sign up for the Armed Services; and why it is that Black recruitment in the Armed Services is running near all time lows. Perhaps you can explain all that to me. Again, it is YOU that needs to get the checkup from the neck up. T: To say > that a father fought so > that a son wouldn't have to, is how all those who > serve and have served feel - > we serve to protect our land, people and country. > But to sit back and take it > literally and say that I don't have to because my > daddy did it for me, and then > pass judgement on those that have personally served > for their views based on > military experience, that is sheer arrogance. MU: No, what is sheer arrogance is to belittle the actual experiences of those who have fouhgt in every war, skirmish, battle and conflict that this country has had; to go around the world in defense of American freedoms and Democracy, while still being called a Nigger; to free Martin's people from the ovens of Nazi Germany and still have to ride the back of the trains and buses while those very same Nazi SS soldiers sat up in the front; for Black soldiers to have to fight both the Viet Cong and the White soldiers on base; and to be called, along with their Arab counterparts, Niggers (Sand Niggers in the case of Arabs; they were also called "towelheads", "camel jockeys", etc, usually by White soldiers). The history is there, so is the current circumstance, but whenever anyone Black tries to bring this up for discussion, we are told to shut up, don't worry and be happy. Well, no, Tracy, that will not happen here. If we're gonna deal with Sep 11, then we will deal with how America deals with its own citizenry, today and much more importantly, yesterday; we will look at why this was and is, and why it is that people like yourself, who boasts Black heritage, shucks their moral imperative to speak truth to power; we will look at the fundamental premise of the USA, and that is, to subjugate People of Color domestically and abroad. And if anyone does not, and will not, or cannot, see that, they have a much deeper problem than a guy named Mu'Min. Tough. Get over it. > T: Yes, as one who has a black heritage, who has served > for their country, has lost > family/loved ones to government bureaucracy, who has > travelled and lived in and > experienced other countries, I too rightfully have > my own views on life and what > it means to be human. > MU: Cool. Fair eonugh. No Problem. T: I am feeling rather protective right now, such > strong impulses for a woman. My > chart must be very interesting at the moment. MU: I always feel that the time is right to do what is right; it's in my chart. > T: For such a social species, we sure do live too many > times in a disorder of hate. > Is this really what was planned for us, or have we > messed it up horribly. > > Harmony in Life, > Tracy > MU: I think that is a question that Dasji has answered very well, over the past few days, in his posts, if you have been reading them. I think you should. It's all there. Salaam, Mu ===== Mu'Min M. Bey Western and Vedic Astrologer mumin_bey AOL IM Screen Name: JediMu 2Way Pager: 1-877-345-6499/8773456499; Cell phone: 267-978-2812 Join the Pan Astrological Forum, Where Freedom in Astrological Thought Lives! Just send a blank email to panastroforum- New DSL Internet Access from SBC & http://sbc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 Mu, You really are a racist. If you're not then you at the least have a really snotty attitude about the world. And the only wrong conclusion I drew was that there might be some value to be gained in debating you in that I thought (incorrectly?!?) that had some interest in hearing and discussing opinions. But you are too blinded by your own self-apparent brilliance. You really do seem to think that the world owes you and "your people". MY people were nearly wiped of the planet on both sides of my parentage. On my mother's side, WE were the only tribe never to surrender to the US Government. On my father's, Hitler-minded people, and a relatively small number of hate- filled Arabs have been trying to eradicate Jews for dozens of centuries - all to no avail. So don't whine to me about the plight of "your people". Mu'Min Bey [mumin_bey] Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:55 AM gjlist Cc: nirvana_acres [GJ] Response to Tracy Nirvana Acres... Hi Tracy, Thanks for your interest. I will take up your assertions/comments one at a time. Let's go: T: Mu, > > I was really starting to think that by the previous > emails, where no-one > actually attacked anyone, that maybe politics could > be discussed between > grown-ups. Yes there was a great deal of > disagreement within the discussions, > but it was civil. That was until your previous > email (Patriotism, Sep 11 and > Martin Michaels) which was obviously directed solely > as an attack at Martin. It > was full of attack, innuendo, and so much self > righteousness that you are the > one that seems to be very racial. MU: Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, no big whup. I have not attacked Martin, I have not called him names or demeaned him, I merely pointed out his inaccuracies in a direct way. I am, however, offended by your offense directed at me, the whole "grown-ups" comment. It is a common tactic to blame the victim whenever he/she brings up a grievance; it is a device that has been used by Whites for decades, if not centuries, as a method of getting around or just not dealing at all with the very real instance of institutional racism of which this very Society still is based. As I have said to Martin, and I will restate it, it never ceases to amaze me how many White folk will go to cloud the issues. Martin mentioned his military service not as a reference point to the discussion or as a posit to his position, but as a litmus test that I or anyone else must pass in order to even have a comment he felt he was compelled to respect. To that assertion and posit, I say, RUBBISH - and I stand on the firm rock of not only my progenitor's service, but that of my people's overall, most of whom had been doing longer than many of Martin's of yours combined. And _I_ repeat that YOU do NOT know the first thing about the military service or what it takes to serve - all due respect to your progenitors. T: Then in the same letter of attack you want to take > this matter off list. Now I > can understand taking the discussion off list, but > to request such in the same > letter as one full of such content, well it does > seem to read questionable on > what really is the true reason - can be read either > way. It is like you are > expressing that you are allowed to initiate and > attack Martin in front of people > who have been watching a healthy public debate, but > then requesting that you not > be put through the same, please do it in private. > This may not be the case, but > it can and is read that way. MU: You can take it anyway that you wish; what I SAID was, that the discussion had seemed to deviate from the stated purpose of Dasji's list, and that I thought it would be better to take it offlist. I said that out of respect for Dasji, whom I have a great deal of respect for. Trust me, I ain't scared of none of ya'll. T: Do you think that Martin is the only one of the list > that has served their > country and had wondered as to who else within the > discussion had military > experience? I have served - and within Intelligence > - so I also wondered if a > lot of the comments that people were making were > from those that actually had > inside knowledge and experience as to what really > can and does go on as opposed > to what is actually released to the media for the > publics sake. MU: Tracy, I was not the one who tried to "pull rank" to begin with, it was Martin who did that - and - your other rhetorical query is best directed at Martin, who apparently feels that his word is law. And how dare I for actually questioning that, from my point of view? Hmm... It appears to me that you have chosen to "request this discussion be taken off-list for fear of being exposed for what you are. And you haven't a clue as to what it is like being in the military. You never will. I wasn't trying to pull rank, but to explain this simple point (obvious to ANYONE) to you. But, of course, I am again WRONG! After all, I actually SERVED in the military, so what would I know about it. T: Now, before you go off at me for my next comment, > please understand that I have > black heritage. Your email had stated that "Your > People have done more than > ANYONE else to defend what this country obstensibly > stands for, often times, > when this country could not, and > more-often-than-not, WOULD NOT, defend us...I > don't feel I have anything to prove to you, or > anyone else." Yes, the African > Americans have lived through the humility and > indignity of slavery, yes they > have fought, defended, and died for this country, > yes they have been treated > insufferably, murdered, raped, and I could go on and > on and on. At least here > it is in the past. But it is people like you that > cannot leave it there. How > do you expect people to work at trying to live > together in peace, when there are > so many like you that cannot leave the past where it > belongs. You cannot expect > people to pay for what their ancestors have done. > If that were so then why are > we still not irate with Julius Caesar? Attila The > Hun? And many others from the > past thousands of years of world hostilities? MU: No, it is people like YOU that cannot deal with Reality; the reality that Black live with unmitigated Terrorism every day, from the Police, to the School System, to Red Lining and Rent Steering and the rest of it. Black people have, in the overwhelming main, tried to do nothing BUT live with White folk in Peace, and have continually paid the price for it - from being "strange fruit" to being abandoned by their White neighbors whenever they (Black folk) moves on the block. Let me tell YOU something, I lived in Gary, IN when I was a mid-teen, ours being one of only two non-black families in the area. For the most part, I thought nothing of it. I was used to being around people of differing ethnic backgrounds. _I_ was one of them. The only real gripe I had with it was that "bussing" was necessary to balance the schools loads. I was in a predominantly Black school, and was made to feel VERY unwelcome - not by everyone mind you, but by a large group. You speak as though everything is equal and fair, when in reality it is not; this is why many Black folks didn't have a problem with Arabs being Racially Profiled, because for once, the cops were passing them up - and - because for once, other groups began to see what REAL LIFE is like for anyone that is deemed by the White majority to be an enemy. All of the achievements Black folks have made over the years/decades/centuries came IN SPITE of Whites, not because of them. Get it right, Black folk struggled for every step of advance, every jot-and-tittle, in ways that no other group in America has. And yes, even today, the inequities continue to exist, and only a delusional individual, that cannot deal with reality would deny this. ....As has everyone else. We ALL have tough lives. The difference is that not all of us whine about the problems we have, or about problems however unjustly thrust upon our forefathers. SOME of us get along just fine, because we concentrate on living in the here-and-now, not in the past. If White folk had actually delivered on their promise right after Slavery - we would not be talking about this today. But, as History shows, they didn't, in fact they reneged, and that brought in the Era known as Jim Crow. In fact, there is a TV special coming on tonight for the next few nights, called The Rise and Fall (?) of Jim Crow, on PBS. From the looks of your email here, you might want to check that out. I agree, but it's not the fault of ALL White folks. It was a White man who killed Lincoln, arguably our greatest President. As a result, the North, whom Lincoln had encouraged to put aside the War and to welcome back as brothers the defeated South, felt mainly anger and vengeance over Lincoln's death. Thus began what may have been an even greater test of the country than had been the War. And it hasn't always been easy or equitable for everyone. But, changes, particularly when they are as massive as those initiated by Lincoln, are never easy and they happen gradually. But they DO happen in time. Look at Germany, after WWII, at first at least partially Communist, now a united and free Democracy. > T: African Americans have come a very long way. And > you should be proud of that. MU: I am, thankyouverymuch. As I said, we did because of us raising hell, not because there were so many Whites of goodwill that so wanted to help us out. Again, get the history right. You really are lopsided. I feel sorry for you...but, go on. wallow in your anger and self-pity in the name of righteous indignation. The only people you will impress are those like you. T: African Americans really have more rights than do > any other breed of Americans > now. And yet some of you still are not happy. When > are you going to let the > past stay where it belongs. Maybe you should look > at other countries and how > the whites are treating their blacks. Then you may > see how lucky the African > American really is here. Have you ever even > considered the blacks in other > countries? Maybe you should start with the > Aborigines in Australia. How many > African American complete societies (not just > families) were rounded up and then > ran off a cliff? And the "deaths in custody" issues > - yes America has problems > with the safety and care of blacks in custody - but > it is nothing compared to > the ratio in Australia. The racial discrimination > laws - well I think if you > gave the Australian Aborigines a ride to the USA and > told them how the black > were treated here - I think you would find most of > them not even waiting for the > ride. Australia's problems are not in the past as > it is here where it could be > and should be - they are still struggling. MU: In what way do Black folk have more rights than anyone else? How so? Please explain, with documented examples? How can you even possibly suggest something like that, when people in places like Communist China, in Islamic-controlled Iran, in Castro-Cuba, and elsewhere, knows the kind of hell Blacks catch TODAY? Actually Tracy, what you said wouldn't be all that bad, if, one, it actually existed (and it doesn't) and two, you consider the conditions under which no one else was subject to, other than Black folk. And again, as I said to Martin - no one even dares to suggest to the Jews that they need to "get over it" (the Holocaust), nor do they do that with any other group - only Black folk. Maybe you can speak directly to my Jewish example, compare that to Black folk, and tell me why that is. If such a thing as Anti-Semitism exists, you can best beleive that Anti-Black does too. This is an entirely different scenario. Hitler went about deliberately targeting Jews, specifically attempting to eradicate the race itself. Show me where it is documented anyone has ever tried to kill off all Blacks, except for the occasional idiot from the KKK and the like. And yet, there were "heroes", such as Kit Carson, who were celebrated in their day for attempting just that with Native Americans. And you want to look at Black folk around the world, how they would just love it here? You can't be serious. Ok, why don't you go to Amadou Diallo's parents, and tell then what you told me - and let me know how you made out. Just curious - have you ever read the Autobiography of Malcolm X? The Miseducation of The Negro? The Souls of Black Folk? Destruction of Black Civilization? Civilization or Barbarism? Two Nations? The Slave Narratives? The Speeches and Autobiography of Frederick Douglass or Booker T. Washington? Like I said, just wanted to know, since you have pointed out that you have Black heritage. I'd be interested in hearing your anwswers. T: I have great respect for those that help guide their > people to a better life and > are proud to stand up and say "Look how far we have > come", but little for those > that wallow in the tragedies of the generations past > and that tend to blame and > carry their current lives misgivings or lackings, > because of it. MU: And I have open CONTEMPT for people who try to belittle and render inert the legitimate concerns and issues of Black people, that have grown as a DIRECT result of centuries of dehumanization, ill-treatment, rape, robbery and theft. For you to try to suggest what you have in the course of this email, is in its very nature pernicious. > T: Mu, your daddy and your granddaddy may have served > and had a hell of a time by > the racism of their times, but that is exactly that > - their times. And what is > time? Is it not a continuum in which things can and > do change? They do not > serve now so they cannot tell you what it is like to > serve now. Military units > have been around for thousands of years. It is a > harsh reality. Because we are > all human and there will always be conflict. MU: Let me stop you right there - perhaps you can explain to me why many of my friends, who are Marines TODAY, said almost the exact same things, that my Grandaddy and Daddy said to me years ago; why it is that I don't see any Blacks running in droves to sign up for the Armed Services; and why it is that Black recruitment in the Armed Services is running near all time lows. Perhaps you can explain all that to me. Again, it is YOU that needs to get the checkup from the neck up. T: To say > that a father fought so > that a son wouldn't have to, is how all those who > serve and have served feel - > we serve to protect our land, people and country. > But to sit back and take it > literally and say that I don't have to because my > daddy did it for me, and then > pass judgement on those that have personally served > for their views based on > military experience, that is sheer arrogance. MU: No, what is sheer arrogance is to belittle the actual experiences of those who have fouhgt in every war, skirmish, battle and conflict that this country has had; to go around the world in defense of American freedoms and Democracy, while still being called a Nigger; to free Martin's people from the ovens of Nazi Germany and still have to ride the back of the trains and buses while those very same Nazi SS soldiers sat up in the front; for Black soldiers to have to fight both the Viet Cong and the White soldiers on base; and to be called, along with their Arab counterparts, Niggers (Sand Niggers in the case of Arabs; they were also called "towelheads", "camel jockeys", etc, usually by White soldiers). The history is there, so is the current circumstance, but whenever anyone Black tries to bring this up for discussion, we are told to shut up, don't worry and be happy. Well, no, Tracy, that will not happen here. If we're gonna deal with Sep 11, then we will deal with how America deals with its own citizenry, today and much more importantly, yesterday; we will look at why this was and is, and why it is that people like yourself, who boasts Black heritage, shucks their moral imperative to speak truth to power; we will look at the fundamental premise of the USA, and that is, to subjugate People of Color domestically and abroad. And if anyone does not, and will not, or cannot, see that, they have a much deeper problem than a guy named Mu'Min. Tough. Get over it. > T: Yes, as one who has a black heritage, who has served > for their country, has lost > family/loved ones to government bureaucracy, who has > travelled and lived in and > experienced other countries, I too rightfully have > my own views on life and what > it means to be human. > MU: Cool. Fair eonugh. No Problem. T: I am feeling rather protective right now, such > strong impulses for a woman. My > chart must be very interesting at the moment. MU: I always feel that the time is right to do what is right; it's in my chart. > T: For such a social species, we sure do live too many > times in a disorder of hate. > Is this really what was planned for us, or have we > messed it up horribly. > > Harmony in Life, > Tracy > MU: I think that is a question that Dasji has answered very well, over the past few days, in his posts, if you have been reading them. I think you should. It's all there. Salaam, Mu I won't bother answering everything you have said - it is just too tiring, too frustrating, too sorrowful, that a man can claim to be a part of something intended to bring peace if not always joy to mankind - yet be so filled with hate, and hatred literally drips from your notes, in which you publicly proclaim your desire for peace in your closings. Then you fail to accept a peaceful offer to have your arguments heard and debated. Alas, it is your loss, for you will never be able to see that not every non-Black man is your enemy, even if they don't agree with you. Some Red, Jewish and even White men are capable of being a Black man's friend... Live your life in peace but, don't respond to me. I will not listen any more. Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2002 Report Share Posted October 1, 2002 JIA, et al, Jiabbot (AT) cs (DOT) com [Jiabbot (AT) cs (DOT) com]Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 12:39 PMgjlistSubject: Re: [GJ] Response to Tracy Nirvana Acres... Mu,This prevalent hawkish tactic does not in any way give credit for the other ways people can serve their country. I have been a schoolteacher in the inner city, and let me tell you, all of the hackneyed mataphors about teachers being in the trenches persist only because they are so close to home. It can be very hazardous work, there is typically little support and _no one_ has your back (those who bemoan teachers unions -- and I am in a way one such critic of the abuses often bound up in such associations --often have little clue why they are desperately needed, even if in practice they are often corrupt and inept at protecting passionate, dedicated teachers). I , myself, have been a teacher. And yes, it can be hazardous work. If children were taught proper respect for their elders, the work would still be fun and not dangerous. Call me conservative... The hawk will then say one can't compare *anything* else to military service. I will respond that that depends on what the service being compared is (on that side of the comparison) and whether the military service involves combat (on the other side). (BTW, Most of the people in Bush's adminstration supporting this war have little or no combat experience [bush and Cheney included!]) Read the article Carol put up this morning. You can NOT read that, and not see the sense Mr.. Bush is making with this tack. M. Bush at least has served in the National Guard - yes, it IS a military branch. Mr.. Cheney does have experience as Secretary of Defense and as Chief of Staff - slanted, civilian positions certainly, but with much of the same perspective. The fact is, both have served their country honorably. And as for corruption,I suppose the Clinton's and Gore were the icons of ethics. I'm not saying that Mr.. Bush's group is comprised of angels - all politicians are, shall we say, "flexible" in the area of ethics. And I am sad to say it. But, they at least are thinking ahead, and in the country's best interest. The *ultimate* litmus test for being a true American is whether one is committed to truth and justice just for the insiders (either within the ambit of the military or generally the US) or for everyone. And getting the results back on *this* test is no simple matter. That is why I can post this message on the list with no rancor: This list will not judge our perspectives and actions; history and our consciences at the hour of death will. That is a complex matter and much more nuanced than any list or even system of thought can do justice to.Best,JIAIn a message dated 10/1/2002 1:01:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, mumin_bey writes: Martin mentioned his military service not as areference point to the discussion or as a posit to hisposition, but as a litmus test that I or anyone elsemust pass in order to even have a comment he felt hewas compelled to respect. And that is NOT what was said by me or in any way implied. Again, don't put words in my mouth. Best regards, Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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