Patriotism, Sep 11, and Martin Michaels

[Guest guest]

Martin, Everyone,

 

Below my replies will appear. It seems that the

subject, although linked to Astrology (as everything

is), is straying a bit from the stated purpose of this

list. Therefore, I will respond to this email from

Martin, and suggest that if he or anyone else wishes

to continue this line of dialogue that we do it

offlist. Martin and anyone else so inlcined may email

me directly.

 

Here we go:

 

MM: Thanks for spelling my name correctly.

>

MU: No problem.

 

MM: Actually, with only a few exceptions, my comments

> were meant as

> general comments, not particularly directed at

> anyone in particular.

> And I also want to make clear that I have meant no

> offense to anyone

> at all - although I am certain that I may have

> angered at least

> Curtis. This was not my intent, but at the same

> time, I do not in

> any way apologize for my views any more than I

> expect him (or you)

to.

 

MU: Fair enough.

 

MM: But I do feel that I am (not uniquely)

> qualified to comment

> on things involving the military. I served 13 years

> as a Marine,

> another 4 elsewhere in law enforcement. Did either

> of you serve?

> That is not meant as a challenge, but to make a

> point. You see

> when you serve in the military, you gain an

> appreciation for what

> it takes to be a free country. I am by the way an

> ACLU supporter,

> so I know the government is not always right. But I

> am optimistic

> about them and us in general.

 

MU: Martin, you don't want to do this, man; you cannot

be serious.

 

But since you asked, ok, I'll bite: I come from 3

generations of Marines, Martin, count 'em, 3, AND,

they all served in Wars: my Grandfather served as one

of the few Black Drill Sargents in the Corps back when

they still had segregated barracks; my Daddy saw

action in Vietnam and many of his buddies from the

'hood get blown apart along with it; and my Step-Daddy

fought borth North Korea on one side and white Marines

on the other. ALL of them told me, at length, about

the indigities they suffered, not at the hands of the

"enemy" but from their "own" - white fellow Marines,

and their commanding officers. They told me, NEVER to

join this man's outfit, they did my time for me.

 

You know, while I'm on this subject, it really is

irksome to me, that whenever someone such as yourself

makes the completely assinine comments you did above,

it somehow is supposed to be taken seriously as some

litmus test of one's patriotism and dignity as a human

being, when in reality, it is neither; it is a

half-hearted, half-cocked, half-baked attempt to

silence anyone, and especially Black folk, who doesn't

tow the Party Line. It is absolutely the height of

insult, to even fix one's mouth and wonder out loud

whether anyone else has served in the military in

order to gain any legitimacy when it comes to making

some very needed comments regarding America and both

its domestic and foriegn policies, which are not very

different at all when one takes the time to study them

both. My people have done more than ANYONE else to

defend what this country obstensibly stands for, often

times, when this country could not, and

more-often-than-not, WOULD NOT, defend us...I don't

feel I have anything to prove to you, or anyone else,

when the conversation turns to that which we are

discussing at present. Next Question...?

 

MM: I can certainly understand. But I, personally,

DID

> see a fair number

> of reports regarding Black, Muslim and other

> minority points of view.

 

MU: We'll get to SH's "mistress" in a minute. But

let's take up this great program or series of programs

that you saw featuring Black folk. Martin, unless you

happened to see the Sep 11 all-day panel discussion

presented by Tavis Smiley and carried LIVE on C-Span,

you didn't see anything. Now, suprise me, and tell me

honestly that you DID see it...

 

MM: On the same show featuring Saddam's former

mistress,

> there was a

> feature on a Muslim man on his way to his first day

> at an internship

> in the Financial District - perhaps at the WTC. The

> article explained

> how THIS man personally helped rescue a fair number

> of people. It was

> not the first time I had seen a story of this ilk.

 

MU: You have to really be gullible to a huge fault if

you believe any of what passed for an "expose'" of

SH's "mistress"; I have seen it and believe none of

it, and neither do any of the people who actually knew

SH well, many of whom are no longer in Iraq. In fact,

they maintain that the woman who claims that she is

SH's mistress looks way too Greek, which is highly

unlikely to find in Iraq. This, among many things, is

the reason why SH's own people, again leaving outside

of Iraq now, don't buy it - and neither do I.

 

As Public Enemy once ssaid, "Don't believe the hype".

 

MM: I am, by the way, a Native American/Polish Jew.

So

> I know about minority

> issues.

 

MU: You may know about "minority issues" but you do

NOT know what it is what it means to be Black in a

Society that was born and subsits on the idea and

notion that Black folk are to forever be a permanent

underclass.

 

MM: The American population consists of

> approximately %15 Blacks

> (just as an example). Is it possible - or necessary

> - to require that

> %15 of all stories aired on the news be centered on

> the Black point of

> view? Of course not - it would be unmanageable -

> Never mind the various

> other cultures. Do I think minorities always get a

> fair shake? No! Do

> I think it is getting better? Yes. But I also

> don't think it makes a

> lot of sense to complain about things that people

> NOW living had nothing

> to do with.

>

MU: OK, let's both address the above comments while at

the sametime, offer a bit of correction; American Jews

have long wielded inordinate amounts of influence over

the media and goverment policy, yet no one ever seems

to complain about that; other ethnic groups hold

similar disproportionate power and influence dynamics,

yet again, it never seems to be an issue unless it's

about Black folk - then, it becomes an issue.

 

You think it does no good to sit and complain about

something that "happened in the past", but you know

and I know that if ANYONE even thinks about saying

that the Jews should just get over the Holocaust, the

ADL, JDL and every other Jewish organization would

have their hide - and rightly so. In fact, some 20

years after the fact, they STILL hold Jesse Jackson

accountable for that "Heimy town" remark - a remark he

has denounced many many times over the years. To even

suggest that Black people should just "get over it"

reveals a significant amount of unconscious bias, and

dare I say it - racism.

 

It is interesting to hear you, someone that has

absolutely no idea what it's like to live as a Black

man (nor is it likely if you were to try it out if it

were real and possible) to stand there and say that

"things are getting better". On the basis of such a

statement, Martin, we really could end the colloquiy

right here.

 

MM: Oh! I just checked - I OVER-estimated the

percentage

> - it is ACTUALLY

> %12.1, according the Census bureau:

>

>

http://www.ameristat.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Ameristat/Topics1/Estimates_

> _Projections/U_S__Population__The_Basics.htm

>

> Hispanics actually have a HIGHER percentage of the

> population at %12.5.

 

MU: Yet another correction: Please be advised that

Census figures are calculated based on one out every 6

people; on top of that, Black folk have never been

accurately counted for a variety of reasons, one of

them being, that Black folk, even today, do not trust

the gov't when it says that it wants to ask them some

basic questions. You have to ask why so many people

have such a broad distrust of the gov't; such a thing

just doesn't occur out of nowhere. When you properly

understand history, you understand the proper context

of things.

 

The term "Hispanics" is a very misleading one, for it

speaks to an ethnic classification, not a racial one;

there are white Cubans and Black ones, but both

consider themselves to be Hispanic for example. And,

since everyone else around the world knows how much

hell Black catch here, when "Hispanics" do come here,

they list themselves as WHITE - but don;t take my word

for it, go and see both the recent Census and the one

from the 90s and see for yourself.

 

MM: In general, yes, that is true. And I FOUGHT for

> your right to "take me

> to task". But I am probably less conservative than

> you might think. For

> instance, I think Mr. Bush made a poor choice for

> this new Sec. of Homeland

> Security. He wants to go WAY too far. I don't

> trust that man at all. I

> think if it were up to him, we'd all be wearing

> tattoos on our foreheads.

> THAT will NEVER happen to me.

 

MU: No, my Granddaddy, and my Daddy, and my Step-

Daddy, FOUGHT for me. And Bush is a complete idiot, a

thief, a fool, a draft-dodger, a drunk and an imbecile

who cannot even remember an old quote without bumbling

it up. Didn't have any idea who the leader of Mexico

was, let alone Yugoslavia. Who said that he was on a

"crusade" in the days after Sep 11 - real smart when

you take into account what that word means to the

Islamic World. Bush is living proof of what Black folk

always knew - that if you have money, are a male and

WHITE, you TOO can be President.

 

MM: I can partially understand your reservations

> regarding Washington and

> Jefferson - They both owned slaves, though both were

> quite "good" to

> their slaves.

 

MU: Martin, do you realize how insulting you just

sounded? Oh, so if a Nazi SS guard was kind to one of

your people, that makes the Holocaust easier to bear?

Ridiculous.

Franklin, Jefferson, Washington, ALL of them had

SLAVES. Therefore, they lose ALL credibility, when it

comes to all of the flowery words in those documents.

 

MM: Lincoln though, I don't understand.

> He, admittedly for

> political reasons, freed the slaves. But, he had

> always detested

> slavery on principle. There is no telling the good

> he would have

> accomplished had he not been murdered. Franklin,

> too detested slavery,

> and lobbied for it to be abolished IN THE

> CONSTITUTION.

 

MU: Here, let me help you: Lincoln, while stumping for

votes, went on record as saying that he felt that

Blacks were inferior to whites and should aways remain

so. Jefferson lobbied for the slaves, while he both

owned a few of his own AND carried on an association

with one that by today's standards would make him both

a pedophile and a rapist. I wonder, have you ever read

any of the Slave Narratives? Or any of the writings of

Frederick Douglass, espeically his 4th of July

Address? Hmmm...

>

MM: Clinton is probably more naturally equipped for

some

> aspects of foreign

> policy. For instance, he is certainly a better

> diplomat, where the main

> purpose of communication is to mask meaning. He

> excels at that. One of

> the most accomplished liars I have ever seen. You

> know, I wouldn't have

> cared about his affairs, or his smoking pot. Just

> admit it though, be

> done with it. People forget. UNLESS you lie about

> it. Clinton COULD

> have done a lot of good. The real bitch is, I don't

> honestly think it's

> his fault. Hillary is the real problem. If she

> were a man, she would

> have been an "Al Capone", or a "Huey Long".

 

MU: Sorry, Martin, I don't do the whole "Hillary is

the sole reason for why America is going to Hell in a

handbasket" thing. Didn't get my ditto-card from Rush.

Clinton is a better politican, diplomat, debator,

campaigner and President than Bush going away to bed -

no pun intended. I could see why they propped up Bush

- he's too stupid to get into an affair.

>

MM: As far as the Israelis are concerned, I know that

> not all Muslims are

> "out to eradicate" the Jews. Clinton DID "try" to

> solve the problems

> there as every single president has since 1948.

> Like all the others he

> failed. That is simply a no-win situation as long

> as there are people

> like Saddam in places of power - and there always

> will be, I am afraid.

 

MU: Maybe Israel is the problem, since it is at the

heart of everything. Nelson Mandela recently made a

great point - if the USA is really about getting WMDs

out of then hands of everyone except the USA, they

should start with Israel, who have a history of

throwing everthing but the kitchen sink at anyone it

thinks may be an enemy. For sure, there are other

threats in the region, but you can't pick and choose

which WMDs you're going to get and which ones you're

not. If Mandela can see the racism, why can't you?

>

MM: Personally, I think that if Arafat would make the

> same speeches in Arabic

> he does in English, things might get better. But he

> doesn't.

 

MU: Personally, if Sharon were voted out or impeached

or something, things might actually get better. But

that probably won't happen. Sounds too much like

right.

 

You have alot to say on alot of things, as do I, and

of course, yougot it all wrong. Not only do you not

seem to be aware of the nuances of history and their

appropriate contexts, you also seem to be bent on

promoting a party line that sounds oddly reminiscent

of what one would hear at midday on white

neo-conservative radio stations. You do have the right

to espouse such views, as I have the right to point

out the contradictions of your arguments.

 

Your Serve (From this point on, preferrably in private

email)...

 

Salaam,

Mu

 

=====

Mu'Min M. Bey

Western and Vedic Astrologer

mumin_bey

AOL IM Screen Name: JediMu

2Way Pager: 1-877-345-6499/8773456499; Cell phone:

267-978-2812

Join the Pan Astrological Forum, Where Freedom in Astrological Thought Lives!

Just send a blank email to panastroforum-

 

 

 

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http://sbc.

[Guest guest]

Dear Mu and MM,

 

Don't spoil the fun. It was getting interesting!

 

I am not about to get myself embroiled in this, but, its a lazy Sunday

morning in Africa and it caught my eye.

 

Have any of you made a serious study of Noam Chomsky's work?

 

Particularly his work on the USA called Rogue States.

 

It makes for enlightening reading.

 

We in South Africa have a different perspective on all this as much as we

love and honour what the USA stands for in many things. The most important

of which is the right, which I hope they fight for, to discuss such matters

openly on a Vedic astrology list!

 

Much love, metta

Robyn

 

 

 

-

"Mu'Min Bey" <mumin_bey

<gjlist>

Sunday, September 29, 2002 7:58 AM

[GJ] Patriotism, Sep 11, and Martin Michaels

 

 

> Martin, Everyone,

>

> Below my replies will appear. It seems that the

> subject, although linked to Astrology (as everything

> is), is straying a bit from the stated purpose of this

> list. Therefore, I will respond to this email from

> Martin, and suggest that if he or anyone else wishes

> to continue this line of dialogue that we do it

> offlist. Martin and anyone else so inlcined may email

> me directly.

>

> Here we go:

>

> MM: Thanks for spelling my name correctly.

> >

> MU: No problem.

>

> MM: Actually, with only a few exceptions, my comments

> > were meant as

> > general comments, not particularly directed at

> > anyone in particular.

> > And I also want to make clear that I have meant no

> > offense to anyone

> > at all - although I am certain that I may have

> > angered at least

> > Curtis. This was not my intent, but at the same

> > time, I do not in

> > any way apologize for my views any more than I

> > expect him (or you)

> to.

>

> MU: Fair enough.

>

> MM: But I do feel that I am (not uniquely)

> > qualified to comment

> > on things involving the military. I served 13 years

> > as a Marine,

> > another 4 elsewhere in law enforcement. Did either

> > of you serve?

> > That is not meant as a challenge, but to make a

> > point. You see

> > when you serve in the military, you gain an

> > appreciation for what

> > it takes to be a free country. I am by the way an

> > ACLU supporter,

> > so I know the government is not always right. But I

> > am optimistic

> > about them and us in general.

>

> MU: Martin, you don't want to do this, man; you cannot

> be serious.

>

> But since you asked, ok, I'll bite: I come from 3

> generations of Marines, Martin, count 'em, 3, AND,

> they all served in Wars: my Grandfather served as one

> of the few Black Drill Sargents in the Corps back when

> they still had segregated barracks; my Daddy saw

> action in Vietnam and many of his buddies from the

> 'hood get blown apart along with it; and my Step-Daddy

> fought borth North Korea on one side and white Marines

> on the other. ALL of them told me, at length, about

> the indigities they suffered, not at the hands of the

> "enemy" but from their "own" - white fellow Marines,

> and their commanding officers. They told me, NEVER to

> join this man's outfit, they did my time for me.

>

> You know, while I'm on this subject, it really is

> irksome to me, that whenever someone such as yourself

> makes the completely assinine comments you did above,

> it somehow is supposed to be taken seriously as some

> litmus test of one's patriotism and dignity as a human

> being, when in reality, it is neither; it is a

> half-hearted, half-cocked, half-baked attempt to

> silence anyone, and especially Black folk, who doesn't

> tow the Party Line. It is absolutely the height of

> insult, to even fix one's mouth and wonder out loud

> whether anyone else has served in the military in

> order to gain any legitimacy when it comes to making

> some very needed comments regarding America and both

> its domestic and foriegn policies, which are not very

> different at all when one takes the time to study them

> both. My people have done more than ANYONE else to

> defend what this country obstensibly stands for, often

> times, when this country could not, and

> more-often-than-not, WOULD NOT, defend us...I don't

> feel I have anything to prove to you, or anyone else,

> when the conversation turns to that which we are

> discussing at present. Next Question...?

>

> MM: I can certainly understand. But I, personally,

> DID

> > see a fair number

> > of reports regarding Black, Muslim and other

> > minority points of view.

>

> MU: We'll get to SH's "mistress" in a minute. But

> let's take up this great program or series of programs

> that you saw featuring Black folk. Martin, unless you

> happened to see the Sep 11 all-day panel discussion

> presented by Tavis Smiley and carried LIVE on C-Span,

> you didn't see anything. Now, suprise me, and tell me

> honestly that you DID see it...

>

> MM: On the same show featuring Saddam's former

> mistress,

> > there was a

> > feature on a Muslim man on his way to his first day

> > at an internship

> > in the Financial District - perhaps at the WTC. The

> > article explained

> > how THIS man personally helped rescue a fair number

> > of people. It was

> > not the first time I had seen a story of this ilk.

>

> MU: You have to really be gullible to a huge fault if

> you believe any of what passed for an "expose'" of

> SH's "mistress"; I have seen it and believe none of

> it, and neither do any of the people who actually knew

> SH well, many of whom are no longer in Iraq. In fact,

> they maintain that the woman who claims that she is

> SH's mistress looks way too Greek, which is highly

> unlikely to find in Iraq. This, among many things, is

> the reason why SH's own people, again leaving outside

> of Iraq now, don't buy it - and neither do I.

>

> As Public Enemy once ssaid, "Don't believe the hype".

>

> MM: I am, by the way, a Native American/Polish Jew.

> So

> > I know about minority

> > issues.

>

> MU: You may know about "minority issues" but you do

> NOT know what it is what it means to be Black in a

> Society that was born and subsits on the idea and

> notion that Black folk are to forever be a permanent

> underclass.

>

> MM: The American population consists of

> > approximately %15 Blacks

> > (just as an example). Is it possible - or necessary

> > - to require that

> > %15 of all stories aired on the news be centered on

> > the Black point of

> > view? Of course not - it would be unmanageable -

> > Never mind the various

> > other cultures. Do I think minorities always get a

> > fair shake? No! Do

> > I think it is getting better? Yes. But I also

> > don't think it makes a

> > lot of sense to complain about things that people

> > NOW living had nothing

> > to do with.

> >

> MU: OK, let's both address the above comments while at

> the sametime, offer a bit of correction; American Jews

> have long wielded inordinate amounts of influence over

> the media and goverment policy, yet no one ever seems

> to complain about that; other ethnic groups hold

> similar disproportionate power and influence dynamics,

> yet again, it never seems to be an issue unless it's

> about Black folk - then, it becomes an issue.

>

> You think it does no good to sit and complain about

> something that "happened in the past", but you know

> and I know that if ANYONE even thinks about saying

> that the Jews should just get over the Holocaust, the

> ADL, JDL and every other Jewish organization would

> have their hide - and rightly so. In fact, some 20

> years after the fact, they STILL hold Jesse Jackson

> accountable for that "Heimy town" remark - a remark he

> has denounced many many times over the years. To even

> suggest that Black people should just "get over it"

> reveals a significant amount of unconscious bias, and

> dare I say it - racism.

>

> It is interesting to hear you, someone that has

> absolutely no idea what it's like to live as a Black

> man (nor is it likely if you were to try it out if it

> were real and possible) to stand there and say that

> "things are getting better". On the basis of such a

> statement, Martin, we really could end the colloquiy

> right here.

>

> MM: Oh! I just checked - I OVER-estimated the

> percentage

> > - it is ACTUALLY

> > %12.1, according the Census bureau:

> >

> >

>

http://www.ameristat.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Ameristat/Topics1/Estimates_

> > _Projections/U_S__Population__The_Basics.htm

> >

> > Hispanics actually have a HIGHER percentage of the

> > population at %12.5.

>

> MU: Yet another correction: Please be advised that

> Census figures are calculated based on one out every 6

> people; on top of that, Black folk have never been

> accurately counted for a variety of reasons, one of

> them being, that Black folk, even today, do not trust

> the gov't when it says that it wants to ask them some

> basic questions. You have to ask why so many people

> have such a broad distrust of the gov't; such a thing

> just doesn't occur out of nowhere. When you properly

> understand history, you understand the proper context

> of things.

>

> The term "Hispanics" is a very misleading one, for it

> speaks to an ethnic classification, not a racial one;

> there are white Cubans and Black ones, but both

> consider themselves to be Hispanic for example. And,

> since everyone else around the world knows how much

> hell Black catch here, when "Hispanics" do come here,

> they list themselves as WHITE - but don;t take my word

> for it, go and see both the recent Census and the one

> from the 90s and see for yourself.

>

> MM: In general, yes, that is true. And I FOUGHT for

> > your right to "take me

> > to task". But I am probably less conservative than

> > you might think. For

> > instance, I think Mr. Bush made a poor choice for

> > this new Sec. of Homeland

> > Security. He wants to go WAY too far. I don't

> > trust that man at all. I

> > think if it were up to him, we'd all be wearing

> > tattoos on our foreheads.

> > THAT will NEVER happen to me.

>

> MU: No, my Granddaddy, and my Daddy, and my Step-

> Daddy, FOUGHT for me. And Bush is a complete idiot, a

> thief, a fool, a draft-dodger, a drunk and an imbecile

> who cannot even remember an old quote without bumbling

> it up. Didn't have any idea who the leader of Mexico

> was, let alone Yugoslavia. Who said that he was on a

> "crusade" in the days after Sep 11 - real smart when

> you take into account what that word means to the

> Islamic World. Bush is living proof of what Black folk

> always knew - that if you have money, are a male and

> WHITE, you TOO can be President.

>

> MM: I can partially understand your reservations

> > regarding Washington and

> > Jefferson - They both owned slaves, though both were

> > quite "good" to

> > their slaves.

>

> MU: Martin, do you realize how insulting you just

> sounded? Oh, so if a Nazi SS guard was kind to one of

> your people, that makes the Holocaust easier to bear?

> Ridiculous.

> Franklin, Jefferson, Washington, ALL of them had

> SLAVES. Therefore, they lose ALL credibility, when it

> comes to all of the flowery words in those documents.

>

> MM: Lincoln though, I don't understand.

> > He, admittedly for

> > political reasons, freed the slaves. But, he had

> > always detested

> > slavery on principle. There is no telling the good

> > he would have

> > accomplished had he not been murdered. Franklin,

> > too detested slavery,

> > and lobbied for it to be abolished IN THE

> > CONSTITUTION.

>

> MU: Here, let me help you: Lincoln, while stumping for

> votes, went on record as saying that he felt that

> Blacks were inferior to whites and should aways remain

> so. Jefferson lobbied for the slaves, while he both

> owned a few of his own AND carried on an association

> with one that by today's standards would make him both

> a pedophile and a rapist. I wonder, have you ever read

> any of the Slave Narratives? Or any of the writings of

> Frederick Douglass, espeically his 4th of July

> Address? Hmmm...

> >

> MM: Clinton is probably more naturally equipped for

> some

> > aspects of foreign

> > policy. For instance, he is certainly a better

> > diplomat, where the main

> > purpose of communication is to mask meaning. He

> > excels at that. One of

> > the most accomplished liars I have ever seen. You

> > know, I wouldn't have

> > cared about his affairs, or his smoking pot. Just

> > admit it though, be

> > done with it. People forget. UNLESS you lie about

> > it. Clinton COULD

> > have done a lot of good. The real bitch is, I don't

> > honestly think it's

> > his fault. Hillary is the real problem. If she

> > were a man, she would

> > have been an "Al Capone", or a "Huey Long".

>

> MU: Sorry, Martin, I don't do the whole "Hillary is

> the sole reason for why America is going to Hell in a

> handbasket" thing. Didn't get my ditto-card from Rush.

> Clinton is a better politican, diplomat, debator,

> campaigner and President than Bush going away to bed -

> no pun intended. I could see why they propped up Bush

> - he's too stupid to get into an affair.

> >

> MM: As far as the Israelis are concerned, I know that

> > not all Muslims are

> > "out to eradicate" the Jews. Clinton DID "try" to

> > solve the problems

> > there as every single president has since 1948.

> > Like all the others he

> > failed. That is simply a no-win situation as long

> > as there are people

> > like Saddam in places of power - and there always

> > will be, I am afraid.

>

> MU: Maybe Israel is the problem, since it is at the

> heart of everything. Nelson Mandela recently made a

> great point - if the USA is really about getting WMDs

> out of then hands of everyone except the USA, they

> should start with Israel, who have a history of

> throwing everthing but the kitchen sink at anyone it

> thinks may be an enemy. For sure, there are other

> threats in the region, but you can't pick and choose

> which WMDs you're going to get and which ones you're

> not. If Mandela can see the racism, why can't you?

> >

> MM: Personally, I think that if Arafat would make the

> > same speeches in Arabic

> > he does in English, things might get better. But he

> > doesn't.

>

> MU: Personally, if Sharon were voted out or impeached

> or something, things might actually get better. But

> that probably won't happen. Sounds too much like

> right.

>

> You have alot to say on alot of things, as do I, and

> of course, yougot it all wrong. Not only do you not

> seem to be aware of the nuances of history and their

> appropriate contexts, you also seem to be bent on

> promoting a party line that sounds oddly reminiscent

> of what one would hear at midday on white

> neo-conservative radio stations. You do have the right

> to espouse such views, as I have the right to point

> out the contradictions of your arguments.

>

> Your Serve (From this point on, preferrably in private

> email)...

>

> Salaam,

> Mu

>

> =====

> Mu'Min M. Bey

> Western and Vedic Astrologer

> mumin_bey

> AOL IM Screen Name: JediMu

> 2Way Pager: 1-877-345-6499/8773456499; Cell phone:

267-978-2812

> Join the Pan Astrological Forum, Where Freedom in Astrological Thought

Lives! Just send a blank email to panastroforum-

>

>

>

> New DSL Internet Access from SBC &

> http://sbc.

>

>

>

> Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat

> : gjlist-

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

[Guest guest]

Maybe 'nuff said, but thanks for the smiles!

Fondly,

Jesse

In a message dated 9/28/2002 5:59:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, cynthianovak (AT) sbcglobal (DOT) net writes:

Dear Jia

MAngal Budha here as well I guess that is 'nough said.

smiles

c

[Guest guest]

Robyn,

 

Thank you ... Mu has made some valid points, but only partially so. He

has also made some errors: First in attempting to debate with me - :-)

But, really, he has made an invitation to take this debate (which I am

also very much enjoying) offline. My wife remarked that she thought it

was because he knew he was going to lose. I gently chided her, saying,

"There will be no winner or loser. He is expressing his opinion, as I

am mine. And opinions are like a**holes. Everyone has one, and they

all stink."

 

And he has also made the argument that I don't (CAN'T! and I agree to some

extent) understand what it is like being a Black Man in America. This is a

fair statement, although I DO understand how poorly minorities can be

treated

here at times. If you've been reading the list, you know why.

 

Yet, he has assumed that - because his Daddy and Grandfather served in the

military - HE can understand MY point of view. I have news for you Mu, it

doesn't work that way. (The argument here is that his family has two

generations of soldiers, hence understanding is in his blood. I am sure he

is proud of this - he should be. My own family, at least on one side of my

family, has lived here for MILLENNIA. We, too have a military tradition,

going back beyond World War I, even to the Civil War - never mind our own

warrior tradition.)

 

But, it doesn't work that way. Why? If you have to ask, you really

wouldn't

understand. The wives of some of the "TopKicks" and the Officers would

often

expect the other "lesser" wives to kowtow to them on base because THEIR

husband

out-ranked YOUR husband - or even more ridiculous, would expect the men

themselves to defer to them as well. One of my favorite commanders put a

screeching halt to this (He had, like me been a "mustang", that is an

officer

promoted from the enlisted ranks.) - He informed the wives - correctly -

that

it was not THEY (the wives) who wore the insignia, but their husbands. That

 

they would be deemed proper respect, but that they bore NO authority

whatever

over the men. One Major's wife had actually "ordered" a man to do chores

for

her. This had been the impetus for the "meeting" with the wives. She had

tried

to get her husband to bring the man up on charges.

 

Mu, you are the equivalent, in some ways, to these wives - you seem to think

 

you have the same weight of experience and authority as your Father and

Grandfather. The fact is, you haven't a clue. I respect your right to have

differing opinions from my own - but to declare my opinions (mine or anyone

else's for that matter as "wrong"... I have stated FACTS, at the same time

expressing my opinions regarding those facts. I have demonstrated

HISTORICAL

knowledge, documented knowledge. You have made conjecture.

 

And I like open forums...It's part of what _I_ fought for...

 

Best regards,

Martin

 

 

 

Robyn [resimpson]

Sunday, September 29, 2002 1:11 AM

gjlist

Re: [GJ] Patriotism, Sep 11, and Martin Michaels

 

 

Dear Mu and MM,

 

Don't spoil the fun. It was getting interesting!

 

I am not about to get myself embroiled in this, but, its a lazy Sunday

morning in Africa and it caught my eye.

 

Have any of you made a serious study of Noam Chomsky's work?

 

Particularly his work on the USA called Rogue States.

 

It makes for enlightening reading.

 

We in South Africa have a different perspective on all this as much as we

love and honour what the USA stands for in many things. The most important

of which is the right, which I hope they fight for, to discuss such matters

openly on a Vedic astrology list!

 

Much love, metta

Robyn

 

 

 

-

"Mu'Min Bey" <mumin_bey

<gjlist>

Sunday, September 29, 2002 7:58 AM

[GJ] Patriotism, Sep 11, and Martin Michaels

 

 

> Martin, Everyone,

>

> Below my replies will appear. It seems that the

> subject, although linked to Astrology (as everything

> is), is straying a bit from the stated purpose of this

> list. Therefore, I will respond to this email from

> Martin, and suggest that if he or anyone else wishes

> to continue this line of dialogue that we do it

> offlist. Martin and anyone else so inlcined may email

> me directly.

>

> Here we go:

>

> MM: Thanks for spelling my name correctly.

> >

> MU: No problem.

>

> MM: Actually, with only a few exceptions, my comments

> > were meant as

> > general comments, not particularly directed at

> > anyone in particular.

> > And I also want to make clear that I have meant no

> > offense to anyone

> > at all - although I am certain that I may have

> > angered at least

> > Curtis. This was not my intent, but at the same

> > time, I do not in

> > any way apologize for my views any more than I

> > expect him (or you)

> to.

>

> MU: Fair enough.

>

> MM: But I do feel that I am (not uniquely)

> > qualified to comment

> > on things involving the military. I served 13 years

> > as a Marine,

> > another 4 elsewhere in law enforcement. Did either

> > of you serve?

> > That is not meant as a challenge, but to make a

> > point. You see

> > when you serve in the military, you gain an

> > appreciation for what

> > it takes to be a free country. I am by the way an

> > ACLU supporter,

> > so I know the government is not always right. But I

> > am optimistic

> > about them and us in general.

>

> MU: Martin, you don't want to do this, man; you cannot

> be serious.

>

> But since you asked, ok, I'll bite: I come from 3

> generations of Marines, Martin, count 'em, 3, AND,

> they all served in Wars: my Grandfather served as one

> of the few Black Drill Sargents in the Corps back when

> they still had segregated barracks; my Daddy saw

> action in Vietnam and many of his buddies from the

> 'hood get blown apart along with it; and my Step-Daddy

> fought borth North Korea on one side and white Marines

> on the other. ALL of them told me, at length, about

> the indigities they suffered, not at the hands of the

> "enemy" but from their "own" - white fellow Marines,

> and their commanding officers. They told me, NEVER to

> join this man's outfit, they did my time for me.

>

> You know, while I'm on this subject, it really is

> irksome to me, that whenever someone such as yourself

> makes the completely assinine comments you did above,

> it somehow is supposed to be taken seriously as some

> litmus test of one's patriotism and dignity as a human

> being, when in reality, it is neither; it is a

> half-hearted, half-cocked, half-baked attempt to

> silence anyone, and especially Black folk, who doesn't

> tow the Party Line. It is absolutely the height of

> insult, to even fix one's mouth and wonder out loud

> whether anyone else has served in the military in

> order to gain any legitimacy when it comes to making

> some very needed comments regarding America and both

> its domestic and foriegn policies, which are not very

> different at all when one takes the time to study them

> both. My people have done more than ANYONE else to

> defend what this country obstensibly stands for, often

> times, when this country could not, and

> more-often-than-not, WOULD NOT, defend us...I don't

> feel I have anything to prove to you, or anyone else,

> when the conversation turns to that which we are

> discussing at present. Next Question...?

>

> MM: I can certainly understand. But I, personally,

> DID

> > see a fair number

> > of reports regarding Black, Muslim and other

> > minority points of view.

>

> MU: We'll get to SH's "mistress" in a minute. But

> let's take up this great program or series of programs

> that you saw featuring Black folk. Martin, unless you

> happened to see the Sep 11 all-day panel discussion

> presented by Tavis Smiley and carried LIVE on C-Span,

> you didn't see anything. Now, suprise me, and tell me

> honestly that you DID see it...

>

> MM: On the same show featuring Saddam's former

> mistress,

> > there was a

> > feature on a Muslim man on his way to his first day

> > at an internship

> > in the Financial District - perhaps at the WTC. The

> > article explained

> > how THIS man personally helped rescue a fair number

> > of people. It was

> > not the first time I had seen a story of this ilk.

>

> MU: You have to really be gullible to a huge fault if

> you believe any of what passed for an "expose'" of

> SH's "mistress"; I have seen it and believe none of

> it, and neither do any of the people who actually knew

> SH well, many of whom are no longer in Iraq. In fact,

> they maintain that the woman who claims that she is

> SH's mistress looks way too Greek, which is highly

> unlikely to find in Iraq. This, among many things, is

> the reason why SH's own people, again leaving outside

> of Iraq now, don't buy it - and neither do I.

>

> As Public Enemy once ssaid, "Don't believe the hype".

>

> MM: I am, by the way, a Native American/Polish Jew.

> So

> > I know about minority

> > issues.

>

> MU: You may know about "minority issues" but you do

> NOT know what it is what it means to be Black in a

> Society that was born and subsits on the idea and

> notion that Black folk are to forever be a permanent

> underclass.

>

> MM: The American population consists of

> > approximately %15 Blacks

> > (just as an example). Is it possible - or necessary

> > - to require that

> > %15 of all stories aired on the news be centered on

> > the Black point of

> > view? Of course not - it would be unmanageable -

> > Never mind the various

> > other cultures. Do I think minorities always get a

> > fair shake? No! Do

> > I think it is getting better? Yes. But I also

> > don't think it makes a

> > lot of sense to complain about things that people

> > NOW living had nothing

> > to do with.

> >

> MU: OK, let's both address the above comments while at

> the sametime, offer a bit of correction; American Jews

> have long wielded inordinate amounts of influence over

> the media and goverment policy, yet no one ever seems

> to complain about that; other ethnic groups hold

> similar disproportionate power and influence dynamics,

> yet again, it never seems to be an issue unless it's

> about Black folk - then, it becomes an issue.

>

> You think it does no good to sit and complain about

> something that "happened in the past", but you know

> and I know that if ANYONE even thinks about saying

> that the Jews should just get over the Holocaust, the

> ADL, JDL and every other Jewish organization would

> have their hide - and rightly so. In fact, some 20

> years after the fact, they STILL hold Jesse Jackson

> accountable for that "Heimy town" remark - a remark he

> has denounced many many times over the years. To even

> suggest that Black people should just "get over it"

> reveals a significant amount of unconscious bias, and

> dare I say it - racism.

>

> It is interesting to hear you, someone that has

> absolutely no idea what it's like to live as a Black

> man (nor is it likely if you were to try it out if it

> were real and possible) to stand there and say that

> "things are getting better". On the basis of such a

> statement, Martin, we really could end the colloquiy

> right here.

>

> MM: Oh! I just checked - I OVER-estimated the

> percentage

> > - it is ACTUALLY

> > %12.1, according the Census bureau:

> >

> >

>

http://www.ameristat.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Ameristat/Topics1/Estimates_

> > _Projections/U_S__Population__The_Basics.htm

> >

> > Hispanics actually have a HIGHER percentage of the

> > population at %12.5.

>

> MU: Yet another correction: Please be advised that

> Census figures are calculated based on one out every 6

> people; on top of that, Black folk have never been

> accurately counted for a variety of reasons, one of

> them being, that Black folk, even today, do not trust

> the gov't when it says that it wants to ask them some

> basic questions. You have to ask why so many people

> have such a broad distrust of the gov't; such a thing

> just doesn't occur out of nowhere. When you properly

> understand history, you understand the proper context

> of things.

>

> The term "Hispanics" is a very misleading one, for it

> speaks to an ethnic classification, not a racial one;

> there are white Cubans and Black ones, but both

> consider themselves to be Hispanic for example. And,

> since everyone else around the world knows how much

> hell Black catch here, when "Hispanics" do come here,

> they list themselves as WHITE - but don;t take my word

> for it, go and see both the recent Census and the one

> from the 90s and see for yourself.

>

> MM: In general, yes, that is true. And I FOUGHT for

> > your right to "take me

> > to task". But I am probably less conservative than

> > you might think. For

> > instance, I think Mr. Bush made a poor choice for

> > this new Sec. of Homeland

> > Security. He wants to go WAY too far. I don't

> > trust that man at all. I

> > think if it were up to him, we'd all be wearing

> > tattoos on our foreheads.

> > THAT will NEVER happen to me.

>

> MU: No, my Granddaddy, and my Daddy, and my Step-

> Daddy, FOUGHT for me. And Bush is a complete idiot, a

> thief, a fool, a draft-dodger, a drunk and an imbecile

> who cannot even remember an old quote without bumbling

> it up. Didn't have any idea who the leader of Mexico

> was, let alone Yugoslavia. Who said that he was on a

> "crusade" in the days after Sep 11 - real smart when

> you take into account what that word means to the

> Islamic World. Bush is living proof of what Black folk

> always knew - that if you have money, are a male and

> WHITE, you TOO can be President.

>

> MM: I can partially understand your reservations

> > regarding Washington and

> > Jefferson - They both owned slaves, though both were

> > quite "good" to

> > their slaves.

>

> MU: Martin, do you realize how insulting you just

> sounded? Oh, so if a Nazi SS guard was kind to one of

> your people, that makes the Holocaust easier to bear?

> Ridiculous.

> Franklin, Jefferson, Washington, ALL of them had

> SLAVES. Therefore, they lose ALL credibility, when it

> comes to all of the flowery words in those documents.

>

> MM: Lincoln though, I don't understand.

> > He, admittedly for

> > political reasons, freed the slaves. But, he had

> > always detested

> > slavery on principle. There is no telling the good

> > he would have

> > accomplished had he not been murdered. Franklin,

> > too detested slavery,

> > and lobbied for it to be abolished IN THE

> > CONSTITUTION.

>

> MU: Here, let me help you: Lincoln, while stumping for

> votes, went on record as saying that he felt that

> Blacks were inferior to whites and should aways remain

> so. Jefferson lobbied for the slaves, while he both

> owned a few of his own AND carried on an association

> with one that by today's standards would make him both

> a pedophile and a rapist. I wonder, have you ever read

> any of the Slave Narratives? Or any of the writings of

> Frederick Douglass, espeically his 4th of July

> Address? Hmmm...

> >

> MM: Clinton is probably more naturally equipped for

> some

> > aspects of foreign

> > policy. For instance, he is certainly a better

> > diplomat, where the main

> > purpose of communication is to mask meaning. He

> > excels at that. One of

> > the most accomplished liars I have ever seen. You

> > know, I wouldn't have

> > cared about his affairs, or his smoking pot. Just

> > admit it though, be

> > done with it. People forget. UNLESS you lie about

> > it. Clinton COULD

> > have done a lot of good. The real bitch is, I don't

> > honestly think it's

> > his fault. Hillary is the real problem. If she

> > were a man, she would

> > have been an "Al Capone", or a "Huey Long".

>

> MU: Sorry, Martin, I don't do the whole "Hillary is

> the sole reason for why America is going to Hell in a

> handbasket" thing. Didn't get my ditto-card from Rush.

> Clinton is a better politican, diplomat, debator,

> campaigner and President than Bush going away to bed -

> no pun intended. I could see why they propped up Bush

> - he's too stupid to get into an affair.

> >

> MM: As far as the Israelis are concerned, I know that

> > not all Muslims are

> > "out to eradicate" the Jews. Clinton DID "try" to

> > solve the problems

> > there as every single president has since 1948.

> > Like all the others he

> > failed. That is simply a no-win situation as long

> > as there are people

> > like Saddam in places of power - and there always

> > will be, I am afraid.

>

> MU: Maybe Israel is the problem, since it is at the

> heart of everything. Nelson Mandela recently made a

> great point - if the USA is really about getting WMDs

> out of then hands of everyone except the USA, they

> should start with Israel, who have a history of

> throwing everthing but the kitchen sink at anyone it

> thinks may be an enemy. For sure, there are other

> threats in the region, but you can't pick and choose

> which WMDs you're going to get and which ones you're

> not. If Mandela can see the racism, why can't you?

> >

> MM: Personally, I think that if Arafat would make the

> > same speeches in Arabic

> > he does in English, things might get better. But he

> > doesn't.

>

> MU: Personally, if Sharon were voted out or impeached

> or something, things might actually get better. But

> that probably won't happen. Sounds too much like

> right.

>

> You have alot to say on alot of things, as do I, and

> of course, yougot it all wrong. Not only do you not

> seem to be aware of the nuances of history and their

> appropriate contexts, you also seem to be bent on

> promoting a party line that sounds oddly reminiscent

> of what one would hear at midday on white

> neo-conservative radio stations. You do have the right

> to espouse such views, as I have the right to point

> out the contradictions of your arguments.

>

> Your Serve (From this point on, preferrably in private

> email)...

>

> Salaam,

> Mu

>

> =====

> Mu'Min M. Bey

> Western and Vedic Astrologer

> mumin_bey

> AOL IM Screen Name: JediMu

> 2Way Pager: 1-877-345-6499/8773456499; Cell phone:

267-978-2812

> Join the Pan Astrological Forum, Where Freedom in Astrological Thought

Lives! Just send a blank email to panastroforum-

>

>

>

> New DSL Internet Access from SBC &

> http://sbc.

>

>

>

> Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat

> : gjlist-

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

>

 

 

 

 

Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat

: gjlist-

 

 

 

Your use of is subject to