Guest guest Posted September 6, 2002 Report Share Posted September 6, 2002 Dear List, As per discussion on East West astrology, Let's make this absolutely, perfectly honest and clear. I do not consider western astrology an astrology no longer. It is actually a misnomer and maybe called a study of personality traits and psychological make-up according to the time of the year they are born. I am not being biased and am stating facts plainly. Astrology means connection with stars and constellations. Does western astrlogy have anything to do with the stars and constellations any more? No! It can be called seasonalogy or monthology but has nothing to do with the stars. Instead of calling Aries, Taurus, etc. they should call them something like March, April so on or some other name. It was valid back then when the ayanamsa coincided from approx. 2000 BC to 185 AD but no longer is the case. Now it is just an arbitrary division of a year by twelve. When the vernal equinox happens, is the Sun in Aries? No, it is in Pisces. So then why should they call it Aries? And Asc, Moon sign and the signs of the planets are in are wrong 80% of the time(divididing ayanamsa 24 degrees by 30 degrees). And the sign are the background of the planets are lodged against. What kind of effect it'll have if you suddenly changed the back drop in a play? The whole play will be skrewed up. It may have bearings on the person's temperment such as if the person is born in spring time he/she is youthful, energetic, likes to take initiative and so on, but that's about the size of it. If it has nothing to do with the stars then why should they call it astrology? It may be something else but not astrology. Hari Om Haridas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2002 Report Share Posted September 6, 2002 Dear Gee Sun, I acknowledge your opinion and respect your passionate expression of them. The solstices and equinoxes are using the luminaries: the Sun is a star. The Earth is a planet. Western astrology looks at the relationships through aspects of the relative positions. It may not be the sidereal zodiac, but it is still an effective tool which you may choose to disdain or to examine. It really depends upon which type of astrology you wish to practice. I like to use both. It would appear the Oxford Dictionary would include western astrology as an astrology FYI Astrology defined in the Oxford Dictionary: The study of the movements and the "relative" positions of celestial bodies interpreted as an influence on human affairs. c - "Gee Sunn" <siva1008 "GJ" <gjlist> Friday, September 06, 2002 4:18 PM [GJ] Jyotish v. Western astrology > Dear List, > > As per discussion on East West astrology, > Let's make this absolutely, perfectly honest > and clear. > > I do not consider western astrology an astrology > no longer. > > It is actually a misnomer and maybe called a study > of personality traits and psychological make-up > according to the time of the year they are born. > > I am not being biased and am stating facts plainly. > > Astrology means connection with stars and > constellations. > > Does western astrlogy have anything to do with > the stars and constellations any more? > > No! > > It can be called seasonalogy or monthology but > has nothing to do with the stars. > > Instead of calling Aries, Taurus, etc. they should call > them something like March, April so on or some other name. > > It was valid back then when the ayanamsa coincided > from approx. 2000 BC to 185 AD but no longer is the case. > > Now it is just an arbitrary division of a year by twelve. > > When the vernal equinox happens, is the Sun in Aries? > > No, it is in Pisces. > > So then why should they call it Aries? > > And Asc, Moon sign and the signs of the planets are in > are wrong 80% of the time(divididing ayanamsa 24 degrees > by 30 degrees). > > And the sign are the background of the planets are lodged > against. > > What kind of effect it'll have if you suddenly changed > the back drop in a play? > The whole play will be skrewed up. > > It may have bearings on the person's temperment > such as if the person is born in spring time he/she > is youthful, energetic, likes to take initiative and > so on, but that's about the size of it. > > If it has nothing to do with the stars then why should > they call it astrology? > > It may be something else but not astrology. > > Hari Om > Haridas > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > : gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2002 Report Share Posted September 7, 2002 Dear Cynthia, Sidereal astrology is also a branch of western Astrology. What Hari Das is talking is relationship of planets without signs, or the lost relation of the planets with the zodiac due to Ayanasha. In India some Astrologer practice Red Book Astrology. In this signs are not used. A planet in ascendant will be considered like in Aries. With the inter relationship of planets one can also predict. This is why western is still working with the lost relationship of the zodiac. A western background of Astrology with Knowledge of Vedic will give lot of capabilities in Astrology. But i am not agree with you that Vedic can not describe personality, in fact with vedic one can pin point the characteristics of individual to a very great depth which western lack. regards, Inder Jit Sahni House No. 1351-HIG, Model Town, Phase-1, Bhatinda-151001 Pb.<India> hanskpvedic - "cynthia novak" <c.a.novak <gjlist> Saturday, September 07, 2002 9:33 AM Re: [GJ] Jyotish v. Western astrology > Dear Gee Sun, I acknowledge your opinion and respect your passionate > expression of them. > > The solstices and equinoxes are using the luminaries: the Sun is a star. > The Earth is a planet. Western astrology looks at the relationships through > aspects of the relative positions. It may not be the sidereal zodiac, but > it is still an effective tool which you may choose to disdain or to examine. > It really depends upon which type of astrology you wish to practice. I like > to use both. It would appear the Oxford Dictionary would include western > astrology as an astrology > > FYI > Astrology defined in the Oxford Dictionary: > > The study of the movements and the "relative" positions of celestial bodies > interpreted as an influence on human affairs. > > c > > - > "Gee Sunn" <siva1008 > "GJ" <gjlist> > Friday, September 06, 2002 4:18 PM > [GJ] Jyotish v. Western astrology > > > > Dear List, > > > > As per discussion on East West astrology, > > Let's make this absolutely, perfectly honest > > and clear. > > > > I do not consider western astrology an astrology > > no longer. > > > > It is actually a misnomer and maybe called a study > > of personality traits and psychological make-up > > according to the time of the year they are born. > > > > I am not being biased and am stating facts plainly. > > > > Astrology means connection with stars and > > constellations. > > > > Does western astrlogy have anything to do with > > the stars and constellations any more? > > > > No! > > > > It can be called seasonalogy or monthology but > > has nothing to do with the stars. > > > > Instead of calling Aries, Taurus, etc. they should call > > them something like March, April so on or some other name. > > > > It was valid back then when the ayanamsa coincided > > from approx. 2000 BC to 185 AD but no longer is the case. > > > > Now it is just an arbitrary division of a year by twelve. > > > > When the vernal equinox happens, is the Sun in Aries? > > > > No, it is in Pisces. > > > > So then why should they call it Aries? > > > > And Asc, Moon sign and the signs of the planets are in > > are wrong 80% of the time(divididing ayanamsa 24 degrees > > by 30 degrees). > > > > And the sign are the background of the planets are lodged > > against. > > > > What kind of effect it'll have if you suddenly changed > > the back drop in a play? > > The whole play will be skrewed up. > > > > It may have bearings on the person's temperment > > such as if the person is born in spring time he/she > > is youthful, energetic, likes to take initiative and > > so on, but that's about the size of it. > > > > If it has nothing to do with the stars then why should > > they call it astrology? > > > > It may be something else but not astrology. > > > > Hari Om > > Haridas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > > : gjlist- > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > : gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2002 Report Share Posted September 7, 2002 Hi All, I am also not as esteemed as all of you are. Thought I'd just jump in, though. I think interpretation of psychological characteristics has been enhanced by Western Psychology, using the archetypes of Greek mythology and how they relate to psychic forces that interact and compel/impel human beings. They use images to explain things that words are inadequate in doing. That doesn't mean that they are without merit because they do not reflect life on the normal waking plane. In other words, just because a painter does not paint an image that looks like a photograph, does not mean the painter is wrong in what he sees, or his painting is incorrect. It is a perception of reality, that will or will not resonate with the viewer. Some people have really been helped by the relationship of planets explained to them whether or not the planets were in the correct sign or not. A Mars aspecting negatively your Moon, means something no matter what. The pantheon of Vedic gods have their own subtle and powerful images, as well. I love how Das explains things, using Mars as a general, etc. Still Mars, and Mangala DO have the same warlike attributes, and Venus in both do mean luxury, beauty of things, etc. A willingness to see the merits of both systems should be a virtue. Not an agreement, just a willingness to see the others' standpoint and see why it continues to flourish because of a need it fulfills. By the way, there have been astrologers (western) who have made correct, public predictions. There was even a trial of an astrologer in the United States in the 1920's or 1930's who was given a chart of someone and asked to make a prediction. She said the person was dead by drowning and would have no future. She was correct. The judge gave her the date, on the spur of the moment, of his son who had just died in a drowning accident. Thanks, chrys333 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2002 Report Share Posted September 7, 2002 > gjlist, "cynthia novak" <c.a.novak@w...> > > The solstices and equinoxes are using the > luminaries: Understanding of making panchaangam, working out adhika/laya maasa, place of yugaadi, manvaadi(manvatara starting point), etc., all of which are based on Sun AND moon positions in the sky with respect to the nakSatra divisions. For example, paurNami location also fixes Sun's location wrt nakSatra-s. > the Sun is a star. The Earth is a planet. "planet" is not translation for the word "graha". Does any Vedic text have a word that speficically means "planet", i.e., that goes around Sun or any star? Any specific word for "moon", i.e., that goes around any planet? An extended outlook on the above para can be had from the following: vedic astrology/message/16494 VR > Western astrology looks at > the relationships > through > aspects of the relative positions. It may not be > the sidereal > zodiac, but > it is still an effective tool which you may choose > to disdain or to > examine. > It really depends upon which type of astrology you > wish to practice. > I like > to use both. It would appear the Oxford Dictionary > would include > western > astrology as an astrology > > FYI > Astrology defined in the Oxford Dictionary: > > The study of the movements and the "relative" > positions of celestial > bodies > interpreted as an influence on human affairs. > > c Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 7, 2002 Report Share Posted September 7, 2002 Thanks for this. Would you by any chance be able to provide a source for this case? It's a terrific example, and would be a good one for practitioners to cite to. Sarva Mangalam, JIA In a message dated 9/7/2002 11:28:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, chrys333 (AT) attbi (DOT) com writes: There was even a trial of an astrologer in the United States in the 1920's or 1930's who was given a chart of someone and asked to make a prediction. She said the person was dead by drowning and would have no future. She was correct. The judge gave her the date, on the spur of the moment, of his son who had just died in a drowning accident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2002 Report Share Posted September 8, 2002 Re to Gee's points. I used to think this way, but never said it, now I don't think that way. The equinoxes matter tremendously. They are the basis of our external natural earth based life. The stars are not present, they are far away. Equinoxes are our literal friends here on earth- they divide our year. They are real. They are, the starting points of the relationship we have to the sun. They are not stupid, a joke, dumb, or any such thing. They are, Gods, to pagans. Reading nature is divination, and so, western astrology may be rightly called divination. If we are sticklers in some way, we may say it's not "aster-ology", true, but as was said by another: The sun is a start, an aster, so watching the Sun's yearly patterns over us, over our world, is most correctly "aster-ology". The planets are also used in Greek Aster Ology Divination..... Also, if you think physics, like me, you'll see the relevence of WA, TA, GA, whatever we call it, in they way the waves hit the earth. I do. Both are real. It's MA and PA, don't send one packing. -- Das Goravani , President 2852 Willamette St, #353 Eugene, Oregon, 97405 USA Voice: or <> Home of "Goravani Jyotish" Vedic Astrology Software , and more... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2002 Report Share Posted September 8, 2002 Evangaline Waters? Darn, will look up the case and give you details. Thanks, chrys333 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2002 Report Share Posted September 8, 2002 Hi Roik, How are you? I did not say the equinoxes do not matter. They do matter but it's a different matter. But 'Stars are not there, they are far away' ??????????? Excuse me, but you've got me lost. Stars do not matter? What do you mean by stars are not there? You gotta be joking. How about Nakshatras? Jyotish is supposed be more of a cosmic astrology dealing with subtle energy vibrations emanating from stars(signs, constellations), the deep recesses of comic mind, not just being confined to our tiny solar system. At least that's how i understand it. You are right about that divination part though. Hope you are doing OK. Hari Om Hari Das ---------- >Das Goravani <> >gjlist >Re: [GJ] Jyotish v. Western astrology >Sun, Sep 8, 2002, 4:34 PM > > > > Re to Gee's points. > > I used to think this way, but never said it, now I don't > think that way. > > The equinoxes matter tremendously. They are the basis of our > external natural earth based life. The stars are not > present, they are far away. Equinoxes are our literal > friends here on earth- they divide our year. They are real. > > They are, the starting points of the relationship we have to > the sun. They are not stupid, a joke, dumb, or any such > thing. They are, Gods, to pagans. > > Reading nature is divination, and so, western astrology may > be rightly called divination. If we are sticklers in some > way, we may say it's not "aster-ology", true, but as was > said by another: > > The sun is a start, an aster, so watching the Sun's yearly > patterns over us, over our world, is most correctly > "aster-ology". > > The planets are also used in Greek Aster Ology Divination..... > > > > Also, if you think physics, like me, you'll see the > relevence of WA, TA, GA, whatever we call it, in they way > the waves hit the earth. I do. > > > > Both are real. It's MA and PA, don't send one packing. > > > > -- > > > Das Goravani , President > > 2852 Willamette St, #353 > Eugene, Oregon, 97405 > USA > > Voice: > > or > > <> > > > Home of "Goravani Jyotish" > > Vedic Astrology Software , and more... > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > : gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2002 Report Share Posted September 8, 2002 excuse me does indian astrolgy needs definition & recognition from oxford? "ignorance is bliss" i agree with u inder. indians can tell characterstics more accurately. i've noticed that we may not b that good at filling pages like linda goodman. those who think the other way can take a test prashant --- Inder Jit Sahni <isawhney wrote: > Dear Cynthia, > Sidereal astrology is also a branch of western > Astrology. > What Hari Das is talking is relationship of planets > without signs, or the > lost relation of the planets with the zodiac due to > Ayanasha. > In India some Astrologer practice Red Book > Astrology. > In this signs are not used. > A planet in ascendant will be considered like in > Aries. > With the inter relationship of planets one can also > predict. > This is why western is still working with the lost > relationship of the > zodiac. > A western background of Astrology with Knowledge of > Vedic will give lot of > capabilities in Astrology. > But i am not agree with you that Vedic can not > describe personality, in fact > with vedic one can pin point the characteristics of > individual to a very > great depth which western lack. > regards, > Inder Jit Sahni > House No. 1351-HIG, Model Town, > Phase-1, Bhatinda-151001 Pb.<India> > hanskpvedic > > - > "cynthia novak" <c.a.novak > <gjlist> > Saturday, September 07, 2002 9:33 AM > Re: [GJ] Jyotish v. Western astrology > > > > Dear Gee Sun, I acknowledge your opinion and > respect your passionate > > expression of them. > > > > The solstices and equinoxes are using the > luminaries: the Sun is a star. > > The Earth is a planet. Western astrology looks at > the relationships > through > > aspects of the relative positions. It may not be > the sidereal zodiac, but > > it is still an effective tool which you may choose > to disdain or to > examine. > > It really depends upon which type of astrology you > wish to practice. I > like > > to use both. It would appear the Oxford > Dictionary would include western > > astrology as an astrology > > > > FYI > > Astrology defined in the Oxford Dictionary: > > > > The study of the movements and the "relative" > positions of celestial > bodies > > interpreted as an influence on human affairs. > > > > c > > > > - > > "Gee Sunn" <siva1008 > > "GJ" <gjlist> > > Friday, September 06, 2002 4:18 PM > > [GJ] Jyotish v. Western astrology > > > > > > > Dear List, > > > > > > As per discussion on East West astrology, > > > Let's make this absolutely, perfectly honest > > > and clear. > > > > > > I do not consider western astrology an astrology > > > no longer. > > > > > > It is actually a misnomer and maybe called a > study > > > of personality traits and psychological make-up > > > according to the time of the year they are born. > > > > > > I am not being biased and am stating facts > plainly. > > > > > > Astrology means connection with stars and > > > constellations. > > > > > > Does western astrlogy have anything to do with > > > the stars and constellations any more? > > > > > > No! > > > > > > It can be called seasonalogy or monthology but > > > has nothing to do with the stars. > > > > > > Instead of calling Aries, Taurus, etc. they > should call > > > them something like March, April so on or some > other name. > > > > > > It was valid back then when the ayanamsa > coincided > > > from approx. 2000 BC to 185 AD but no longer is > the case. > > > > > > Now it is just an arbitrary division of a year > by twelve. > > > > > > When the vernal equinox happens, is the Sun in > Aries? > > > > > > No, it is in Pisces. > > > > > > So then why should they call it Aries? > > > > > > And Asc, Moon sign and the signs of the planets > are in > > > are wrong 80% of the time(divididing ayanamsa 24 > degrees > > > by 30 degrees). > > > > > > And the sign are the background of the planets > are lodged > > > against. > > > > > > What kind of effect it'll have if you suddenly > changed > > > the back drop in a play? > > > The whole play will be skrewed up. > > > > > > It may have bearings on the person's temperment > > > such as if the person is born in spring time > he/she > > > is youthful, energetic, likes to take initiative > and > > > so on, but that's about the size of it. > > > > > > If it has nothing to do with the stars then why > should > > > they call it astrology? > > > > > > It may be something else but not astrology. > > > > > > Hari Om > > > Haridas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om > Tat Sat > > > : > gjlist- > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat > Sat > > : > gjlist- > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat > Sat > === message truncated === Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance. 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Guest guest Posted September 8, 2002 Report Share Posted September 8, 2002 I wrote: The equinoxes matter tremendously. They are the basis of our external natural earth based life. The stars are not present, they are far away. Equinoxes are our literal friends here on earth- they divide our year. They are real. I meant: The stars are not here with us as much as local sunrise, the equinox, etc. We on Earth, see the stars, but we really feel and have to deal with the sunrise, get up, go to work, etc. Therefore, the Sun's movements in relation to how it affects us, are very real. The Sun is the closest star. To others in other words it is a Nakshatra, and they don't even see our planets. They only see our Sun, and we are so close to it, so very close. Without it, there would be no life. Lose a star in the heavens, we don't notice. As for you're asking after my well being, I'm doing very well. I am wearing Celtic clothing all the time now, tartan cloth wrap on bottom, like Lungi, but made of wool patchwork, plaid it's called by some, tartan by us. Each clanna has it's own design. I'm MacCay, wearing the local Clanna cloth, that is, McKenzie. Also, sash on top, tucked in belt, I love it all. It's a combination of what I learned from India, with my own native culture. I take no meds for a good while. All side effects and all after effects, over over over, yay yay yay...I am always fine. I don't have that morbid fear, the panic attacks, the pain, the sorrow, confusion. I felt I was in hell. I have found my power. It's in being, realizing, reviving, Celt-dom for myself and others who need it. I find it familiar with India, but different. What I learned from India and it's people's, incredibly helpful. I see now why I did it all the more, another reason. Wonderful. I'm happier than before by way far. I wish wellness to everyone. If I can speak on anything more about these matters, healing, cultural issues, family issues, blood issues, Celt, whatever, let me know. My realizations on Western Astrology fall along with my growth and change. I do not use it, nor do I find it attractive. For astrology, I prefer Vedic so far. I know how to read it spot on. I'm a realist in astrology, so far, but maybe one day I'll understand the other signs more. For now, I'm wholly Vedic. However, I see what's up, and in me now it's balanced. No more Hindu fanatic. Peace -- Das Goravani , President 2852 Willamette St, #353 Eugene, Oregon, 97405 USA Voice: or <> Home of "Goravani Jyotish" Vedic Astrology Software , and more... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2002 Report Share Posted September 9, 2002 I cannot wholesale condemn Western astrology. I view it as an incomplete system, ravaged by the Dark Ages, and the contempt of materialistic society. We may never know what Western astrology was. I do know that sidereal placements work very well, the whole Vedic system works more simply and directly. I do not question the importance of the Sun and the seasons, but I do question the assumption that the seasons are de facto a basis for a (hypothetical) zodiacal astrological system. The stars seem to me to be a cosmic indicator of karmic energy patterns going very deeply. A seasonal based astrology seems to me to "surface" oriented. Good to hear that Das has rejoined the land of the semi-sane. Ha, ha he's going Celtic now; him and I have that same blood flowing through our veins. No one can second-guess black-haired, white-skinned, wayward males....except each other I think he knows that he's got at least Jyotish Studio 3 coming out of him yet.... Curtis At 08:54 PM 9/8/02 -0700, you wrote: >I wrote: > >The equinoxes matter tremendously. They are the basis of our >external natural earth based life. The stars are not >present, they are far away. Equinoxes are our literal >friends here on earth- they divide our year. They are real. > > > >I meant: > >The stars are not here with us as much as local sunrise, the equinox, >etc. We on Earth, see the stars, but we really feel and have to deal >with the sunrise, get up, go to work, etc. > >Therefore, the Sun's movements in relation to how it affects us, are >very real. The Sun is the closest star. To others in other words it is a >Nakshatra, and they don't even see our planets. They only see our Sun, >and we are so close to it, so very close. > >Without it, there would be no life. Lose a star in the heavens, we don't >notice. > > > >As for you're asking after my well being, I'm doing very well. > >I am wearing Celtic clothing all the time now, tartan cloth wrap on >bottom, like Lungi, but made of wool patchwork, plaid it's called by >some, tartan by us. Each clanna has it's own design. I'm MacCay, >wearing the local Clanna cloth, that is, McKenzie. Also, sash on top, >tucked in belt, I love it all. It's a combination of what I learned from >India, with my own native culture. > >I take no meds for a good while. All side effects and all after effects, >over over over, yay yay yay...I am always fine. I don't have that morbid >fear, the panic attacks, the pain, the sorrow, confusion. I felt I was >in hell. I have found my power. It's in being, realizing, reviving, >Celt-dom for myself and others who need it. I find it familiar with >India, but different. What I learned from India and it's people's, >incredibly helpful. I see now why I did it all the more, another reason. >Wonderful. I'm happier than before by way far. I wish wellness to everyone. > >If I can speak on anything more about these matters, healing, cultural >issues, family issues, blood issues, Celt, whatever, let me know. My >realizations on Western Astrology fall along with my growth and change. >I do not use it, nor do I find it attractive. For astrology, I prefer >Vedic so far. I know how to read it spot on. I'm a realist in astrology, >so far, but maybe one day I'll understand the other signs more. For now, >I'm wholly Vedic. However, I see what's up, and in me now it's balanced. >No more Hindu fanatic. > >Peace >-- > > >Das Goravani , President > >2852 Willamette St, #353 >Eugene, Oregon, 97405 >USA > >Voice: > >or > > <> > > >Home of "Goravani Jyotish" > >Vedic Astrology Software , and more... > > > > > >Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat >: gjlist- > > > >Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2002 Report Share Posted September 9, 2002 Thank you Cynthia. I was afraid I was "fighting" this one all by myself... hehehe Best Regards, Martin cynthia novak [c.a.novak] Friday, September 06, 2002 11:04 PM gjlist Re: [GJ] Jyotish v. Western astrology Dear Gee Sun, I acknowledge your opinion and respect your passionate expression of them. The solstices and equinoxes are using the luminaries: the Sun is a star. The Earth is a planet. Western astrology looks at the relationships through aspects of the relative positions. It may not be the sidereal zodiac, but it is still an effective tool which you may choose to disdain or to examine. It really depends upon which type of astrology you wish to practice. I like to use both. It would appear the Oxford Dictionary would include western astrology as an astrology FYI Astrology defined in the Oxford Dictionary: The study of the movements and the "relative" positions of celestial bodies interpreted as an influence on human affairs. c - "Gee Sunn" <siva1008 "GJ" <gjlist> Friday, September 06, 2002 4:18 PM [GJ] Jyotish v. Western astrology > Dear List, > > As per discussion on East West astrology, > Let's make this absolutely, perfectly honest > and clear. > > I do not consider western astrology an astrology > no longer. > > It is actually a misnomer and maybe called a study > of personality traits and psychological make-up > according to the time of the year they are born. > > I am not being biased and am stating facts plainly. > > Astrology means connection with stars and > constellations. > > Does western astrlogy have anything to do with > the stars and constellations any more? > > No! > > It can be called seasonalogy or monthology but > has nothing to do with the stars. > > Instead of calling Aries, Taurus, etc. they should call > them something like March, April so on or some other name. > > It was valid back then when the ayanamsa coincided > from approx. 2000 BC to 185 AD but no longer is the case. > > Now it is just an arbitrary division of a year by twelve. > > When the vernal equinox happens, is the Sun in Aries? > > No, it is in Pisces. > > So then why should they call it Aries? > > And Asc, Moon sign and the signs of the planets are in > are wrong 80% of the time(divididing ayanamsa 24 degrees > by 30 degrees). > > And the sign are the background of the planets are lodged > against. > > What kind of effect it'll have if you suddenly changed > the back drop in a play? > The whole play will be skrewed up. > > It may have bearings on the person's temperment > such as if the person is born in spring time he/she > is youthful, energetic, likes to take initiative and > so on, but that's about the size of it. > > If it has nothing to do with the stars then why should > they call it astrology? > > It may be something else but not astrology. > > Hari Om > Haridas > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > : gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat : gjlist- Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2002 Report Share Posted September 9, 2002 Inder, Again, thank you. My experience in Vedic astrology is, admittedly, somewhat more limited as opposed to Western astrology. But I have found that while it is possible to deduce personality traits using Vedic, it is a great deal easier with Western. Best regards, Martin Inder Jit Sahni [isawhney] Saturday, September 07, 2002 9:10 AM gjlist Re: [GJ] Jyotish v. Western astrology Dear Cynthia, Sidereal astrology is also a branch of western Astrology. What Hari Das is talking is relationship of planets without signs, or the lost relation of the planets with the zodiac due to Ayanasha. In India some Astrologer practice Red Book Astrology. In this signs are not used. A planet in ascendant will be considered like in Aries. With the inter relationship of planets one can also predict. This is why western is still working with the lost relationship of the zodiac. A western background of Astrology with Knowledge of Vedic will give lot of capabilities in Astrology. But i am not agree with you that Vedic can not describe personality, in fact with vedic one can pin point the characteristics of individual to a very great depth which western lack. regards, Inder Jit Sahni House No. 1351-HIG, Model Town, Phase-1, Bhatinda-151001 Pb.<India> hanskpvedic - "cynthia novak" <c.a.novak <gjlist> Saturday, September 07, 2002 9:33 AM Re: [GJ] Jyotish v. Western astrology > Dear Gee Sun, I acknowledge your opinion and respect your passionate > expression of them. > > The solstices and equinoxes are using the luminaries: the Sun is a star. > The Earth is a planet. Western astrology looks at the relationships through > aspects of the relative positions. It may not be the sidereal zodiac, but > it is still an effective tool which you may choose to disdain or to examine. > It really depends upon which type of astrology you wish to practice. I like > to use both. It would appear the Oxford Dictionary would include western > astrology as an astrology > > FYI > Astrology defined in the Oxford Dictionary: > > The study of the movements and the "relative" positions of celestial bodies > interpreted as an influence on human affairs. > > c > > - > "Gee Sunn" <siva1008 > "GJ" <gjlist> > Friday, September 06, 2002 4:18 PM > [GJ] Jyotish v. Western astrology > > > > Dear List, > > > > As per discussion on East West astrology, > > Let's make this absolutely, perfectly honest > > and clear. > > > > I do not consider western astrology an astrology > > no longer. > > > > It is actually a misnomer and maybe called a study > > of personality traits and psychological make-up > > according to the time of the year they are born. > > > > I am not being biased and am stating facts plainly. > > > > Astrology means connection with stars and > > constellations. > > > > Does western astrlogy have anything to do with > > the stars and constellations any more? > > > > No! > > > > It can be called seasonalogy or monthology but > > has nothing to do with the stars. > > > > Instead of calling Aries, Taurus, etc. they should call > > them something like March, April so on or some other name. > > > > It was valid back then when the ayanamsa coincided > > from approx. 2000 BC to 185 AD but no longer is the case. > > > > Now it is just an arbitrary division of a year by twelve. > > > > When the vernal equinox happens, is the Sun in Aries? > > > > No, it is in Pisces. > > > > So then why should they call it Aries? > > > > And Asc, Moon sign and the signs of the planets are in > > are wrong 80% of the time(divididing ayanamsa 24 degrees > > by 30 degrees). > > > > And the sign are the background of the planets are lodged > > against. > > > > What kind of effect it'll have if you suddenly changed > > the back drop in a play? > > The whole play will be skrewed up. > > > > It may have bearings on the person's temperment > > such as if the person is born in spring time he/she > > is youthful, energetic, likes to take initiative and > > so on, but that's about the size of it. > > > > If it has nothing to do with the stars then why should > > they call it astrology? > > > > It may be something else but not astrology. > > > > Hari Om > > Haridas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > > : gjlist- > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > : gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat : gjlist- Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2002 Report Share Posted September 9, 2002 THANK YOU!!!! Das Goravani [] Sunday, September 08, 2002 3:34 PM gjlist Re: [GJ] Jyotish v. Western astrology Re to Gee's points. I used to think this way, but never said it, now I don't think that way. The equinoxes matter tremendously. They are the basis of our external natural earth based life. The stars are not present, they are far away. Equinoxes are our literal friends here on earth- they divide our year. They are real. They are, the starting points of the relationship we have to the sun. They are not stupid, a joke, dumb, or any such thing. They are, Gods, to pagans. Reading nature is divination, and so, western astrology may be rightly called divination. If we are sticklers in some way, we may say it's not "aster-ology", true, but as was said by another: The sun is a start, an aster, so watching the Sun's yearly patterns over us, over our world, is most correctly "aster-ology". The planets are also used in Greek Aster Ology Divination..... Also, if you think physics, like me, you'll see the relevence of WA, TA, GA, whatever we call it, in they way the waves hit the earth. I do. Both are real. It's MA and PA, don't send one packing. -- Das Goravani , President 2852 Willamette St, #353 Eugene, Oregon, 97405 USA Voice: or <> Home of "Goravani Jyotish" Vedic Astrology Software , and more... Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat : gjlist- Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2002 Report Share Posted September 9, 2002 It is simple...too simple really... The seasons reflect the "breathing" (the rhythm) of the energies you speak of - the rhythm of the universe. I should say ONE of the rhythms, as there are as many rhythms constantly going - it is the "universal orchestra", constantly playing. I see it like this, Astrologers are like audience members, listening to different parts of the orchestra. Your thought, Curtis, that the "seasonal" based astrology seems surface oriented goes to what I have been saying. To ignore one part in favor of another might be compared to say leaving out the French horns. They don't say a whole lot in and of themselves. But leave them out, and the music seems less flavorful. Best regards, Martin Curtis Burns [curtisburns] Monday, September 09, 2002 5:38 AM gjlist Re: [GJ] Jyotish v. Western astrology I cannot wholesale condemn Western astrology. I view it as an incomplete system, ravaged by the Dark Ages, and the contempt of materialistic society. We may never know what Western astrology was. I do know that sidereal placements work very well, the whole Vedic system works more simply and directly. I do not question the importance of the Sun and the seasons, but I do question the assumption that the seasons are de facto a basis for a (hypothetical) zodiacal astrological system. The stars seem to me to be a cosmic indicator of karmic energy patterns going very deeply. A seasonal based astrology seems to me to "surface" oriented. Good to hear that Das has rejoined the land of the semi-sane. Ha, ha he's going Celtic now; him and I have that same blood flowing through our veins. No one can second-guess black-haired, white-skinned, wayward males....except each other I think he knows that he's got at least Jyotish Studio 3 coming out of him yet.... Curtis At 08:54 PM 9/8/02 -0700, you wrote: >I wrote: > >The equinoxes matter tremendously. They are the basis of our >external natural earth based life. The stars are not >present, they are far away. Equinoxes are our literal >friends here on earth- they divide our year. They are real. > > > >I meant: > >The stars are not here with us as much as local sunrise, the equinox, >etc. We on Earth, see the stars, but we really feel and have to deal >with the sunrise, get up, go to work, etc. > >Therefore, the Sun's movements in relation to how it affects us, are >very real. The Sun is the closest star. To others in other words it is a >Nakshatra, and they don't even see our planets. They only see our Sun, >and we are so close to it, so very close. > >Without it, there would be no life. Lose a star in the heavens, we don't >notice. > > > >As for you're asking after my well being, I'm doing very well. > >I am wearing Celtic clothing all the time now, tartan cloth wrap on >bottom, like Lungi, but made of wool patchwork, plaid it's called by >some, tartan by us. Each clanna has it's own design. I'm MacCay, >wearing the local Clanna cloth, that is, McKenzie. Also, sash on top, >tucked in belt, I love it all. It's a combination of what I learned from >India, with my own native culture. > >I take no meds for a good while. All side effects and all after effects, >over over over, yay yay yay...I am always fine. I don't have that morbid >fear, the panic attacks, the pain, the sorrow, confusion. I felt I was >in hell. I have found my power. It's in being, realizing, reviving, >Celt-dom for myself and others who need it. I find it familiar with >India, but different. What I learned from India and it's people's, >incredibly helpful. I see now why I did it all the more, another reason. >Wonderful. I'm happier than before by way far. I wish wellness to everyone. > >If I can speak on anything more about these matters, healing, cultural >issues, family issues, blood issues, Celt, whatever, let me know. My >realizations on Western Astrology fall along with my growth and change. >I do not use it, nor do I find it attractive. For astrology, I prefer >Vedic so far. I know how to read it spot on. I'm a realist in astrology, >so far, but maybe one day I'll understand the other signs more. For now, >I'm wholly Vedic. However, I see what's up, and in me now it's balanced. >No more Hindu fanatic. > >Peace >-- > > >Das Goravani , President > >2852 Willamette St, #353 >Eugene, Oregon, 97405 >USA > >Voice: > >or > > <> > > >Home of "Goravani Jyotish" > >Vedic Astrology Software , and more... > > > > > >Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat >: gjlist- > > > >Your use of is subject to Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat : gjlist- Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2002 Report Share Posted September 13, 2002 -- Dear Akk I've had computer and email trials and tribulations: Rahu transiting my Mercury <great grins> The case was of Evangeline Adams. If you search her name, I'm sure your will find the source. It was a very public trial. I believe it was in the 30's, but might have been the late 20's in New York City. Miss Adams was well known and accurate so feared. She was charged with "fortune telling" and stood trial. The judge was so impressed with her accurate description of his son that he deemed astrology and her practice of it NOT fortune telling and therefore LEGAL. In the US we struggle with fundamentalist fears. There is a price to pay for living in a fairly young country, but that is another story. cynthia - In gjlist, Jiabbot@c... wrote: > Dear chrys333, > > Thanks for this. Would you by any chance be able to provide a source for > this case? It's a terrific example, and would be a good one for > practitioners to cite to. > > Sarva Mangalam, > > JIA > > > In a message dated 9/7/2002 11:28:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, > chrys333@a... writes: > > > > There was even a trial of an astrologer in > > the United States in the 1920's or 1930's who was given a chart of > > someone and asked to make a prediction. She said the person was dead by > > drowning and would have no future. She was correct. The judge gave her > > the date, on the spur of the moment, of his son who had just died in a > > drowning accident. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2002 Report Share Posted September 13, 2002 -- Dear Akk I've had computer and email trials and tribulations: Rahu transiting my Mercury <great grins> The case was of Evangeline Adams. If you search her name, I'm sure your will find the source. It was a very public trial. I believe it was in the 30's, but might have been the late 20's in New York City. Miss Adams was well known and accurate so feared. She was charged with "fortune telling" and stood trial. The judge was so impressed with her accurate description of his son that he deemed astrology and her practice of it NOT fortune telling and therefore LEGAL. In the US we struggle with fundamentalist fears. There is a price to pay for living in a fairly young country, but that is another story. cynthia - In gjlist, Jiabbot@c... wrote: > Dear chrys333, > > Thanks for this. Would you by any chance be able to provide a source for > this case? It's a terrific example, and would be a good one for > practitioners to cite to. > > Sarva Mangalam, > > JIA > > > In a message dated 9/7/2002 11:28:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, > chrys333@a... writes: > > > > There was even a trial of an astrologer in > > the United States in the 1920's or 1930's who was given a chart of > > someone and asked to make a prediction. She said the person was dead by > > drowning and would have no future. She was correct. The judge gave her > > the date, on the spur of the moment, of his son who had just died in a > > drowning accident. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2002 Report Share Posted September 13, 2002 Absolutely fascinating - I had heard of her in another context when I was younger. But I had no idea of her influence. I guess (hope) this will silence those who slam Western astrology as false. If not, then it is their loss for ignoring a different but no less valid field of study. Martin cynthianovak2002 [cynthianovak] Friday, September 13, 2002 12:46 PM gjlist [GJ] Re: Jyotish v. Western astrology -- Dear Akk I've had computer and email trials and tribulations: Rahu transiting my Mercury <great grins> The case was of Evangeline Adams. If you search her name, I'm sure your will find the source. It was a very public trial. I believe it was in the 30's, but might have been the late 20's in New York City. Miss Adams was well known and accurate so feared. She was charged with "fortune telling" and stood trial. The judge was so impressed with her accurate description of his son that he deemed astrology and her practice of it NOT fortune telling and therefore LEGAL. In the US we struggle with fundamentalist fears. There is a price to pay for living in a fairly young country, but that is another story. cynthia - In gjlist, Jiabbot@c... wrote: > Dear chrys333, > > Thanks for this. Would you by any chance be able to provide a source for > this case? It's a terrific example, and would be a good one for > practitioners to cite to. > > Sarva Mangalam, > > JIA > > > In a message dated 9/7/2002 11:28:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, > chrys333@a... writes: > > > > There was even a trial of an astrologer in > > the United States in the 1920's or 1930's who was given a chart of > > someone and asked to make a prediction. She said the person was dead by > > drowning and would have no future. She was correct. The judge gave her > > the date, on the spur of the moment, of his son who had just died in a > > drowning accident. > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat : gjlist- Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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