Liberated Souls and their vani...

July 27, 2002

I am responding to Natabar and Dhira Krishna and all can see, the quote

I'm responding to is below my response.

My response.

"We should follow the guidelines from liberated souls"

In practicality, you cannot tell who is and who is not on what level of

spiritual attainment, and you certainly cannot tell if someone is

"liberated". Further, you are not sure such a thing exists, as you

cannot be sure of same, yet you speak as if it's reality. Odd.

Then "it's a pity they can be found only rarely these days". This

implies again you are able to spot them. Not so. Also implies that you

have found at least one, though rarely. Who on Earth right now is Nitya

Mukta? How do you know? It's faith only really.

The claim about Prabhupada's knowledge of astrology is odd, given that

he clearly shows ignorance of the matter when it's discussed in places

in his books, like in Adi Lila when Mahaprabhus birth is covered as in

"Simha Rasi simha lagna, ucha graha... find that verse and read the

purport. Clearly, he has no idea what are the Ashta Vargas are, it's

obvious, and that's really basic.

Also, if he had known the power of Jyotish, he would have used charts of

his disciples before deciding major things. He didn't use much Jyotish,

most likely, because he had such a strong inclination to oversee

everything himself. He didn't take to listening alot to outsiders, and

using them. And there were no qualified Jyotishis in the movement. A

Jyotishi is covered by his own karma. You cannot make a Jyotishi out of

anyone. So there were none in Prabhupadas life enough while alive, hence

wrong people were appointed to key spots, causing havoc. Jyotish is

especially meant for Brahmins to use to sort out at least who they

should and should not work closely with. He didn't do that. Many do not.

I think this is a travesty in the Hindu world. It's a shame and sad.

In the section where Natabara gives the 1% thing about empowerment:

DG:Learn from Gurus. Make them explain. If their idea is to just put you

to work, as was done in Krishna movement, and then later MAYBE tell you

something interesting, then don't buy it. Have enough dignity to know

that a Guru should basically be a teacher with a price for his goods.

Like any business. The idea that they own spiritual life is dead. Don't

buy it. They do not. There are no rights anymore, no lineages, etc.,

that will all lead to trouble and confusion.

DG:Take it to the practical stage only now in this age. The Hare Krishna

experiement, including the moods Natabar is still expressing which I

heard in the times while I was getting plundered by one such 1% Guru

along with all his other thousand disciples, is dieing, and that part

lost is not a loss to the world. It's a gain.

DG:Such sentimental drival is what keeps poor people in the bondage of

low class sentimental and emotional religios satisfaction. Rather, one

is better off trying to read books, try things on their own, find what

works for them, and in that way, through real inner work, they will find

their path. "The Path" and all the teachings of all the main Gurus, are

so well documented now in books and the hearts and minds of tons of

"attemptees" all over the world, such that anyone can hear the stuff

nearly anywhere. I learned Jyotish from books, not a Guru, and I'm

doing very well with it, both as software and when I speak to folks

about their charts. I draw awe, praise, exclamations, tears, thanks,

profusely, and I learned from books. Books. But the work of BV Raman,

was indispensible in my life. He is my Guru, though I never met him.

Were it not for him, I would not be here, nor this list. He's my Guru.

But because of the age, I did not need to write to him, or meet him, at

all. Though I did write. His books, vani, instructions, got to me, I

read, paid attention, learned, and am grateful. When I help people, a

little bit of BV Ramans sacrifices and late nights, early mornings, all

of it, is going to that person. From now on in the West, pretty much, we

can say, that BV Raman was the key turning point cornerstone person who

caused the launch of Jyotish to the West. Indeed. Indeed. He's my Guru.

But that means only teacher, and it does not imply God-ness. A Brahma

Vidya Guru is no different. It's a form of Jyan exchange, with a price,

either donation/dakshin, or payment price list. Who cares. There can

even be competition there.

DG:The thing is only useful is the disciple practices what is taught.

There is NO value to spiritual life without application, except writing

more lifeless books of teh same words as the "spirit-ologists" that came

before you.

DG:Rather, application and practice is everything.

DG:So I may know more than some other so called "Disciple" of a Jyotish

"Living Guru" simply because I've applied this in my days ALOT.

-------

Das continues...

In ISKCON, they said "the spiritual master is expert and knows what each

person needs personally for their spiritual life..."

But everyone ended up in very few places-either on the collecting money

team, or the pujari team, etc.

Nobody was sent back to college. I had a full four year scholarship, and

was an exceptionally bright person with a stellar educational

background, halfway through a University, on a FULL scholarship which

even included rent and spending money. I gave that all up at the

instruction of the devotees, shaved up, and moved in.

Implying that a "liberated soul" (a speculative judgement often based in

coercive reasoning from others or sentiment, totally unproveable, and

possible even non-existing as a true place or thing), can "guide us"

whether or not he knows Jyotish, and that we should implicitly follow

such "liberated souls", has led to more trouble than you can relate.

Because, again, who knows who is liberated? Only God. So, you say

someone is liberated, you say it to me. So I follow them and get really

burned. Then what? That happened a TON in ISKCON because of this

mentality. HK's act as if there's some line you cross, and once you do,

all your words and instructions somehow become magically empowered to do

wonders for virtually anyone and everyone, whether they get it or not,

the instructions, no matter how badly they result in screwing over your

life, are somehow wonderful and magical.

This mentality is simply "cult", and it leads to disasters in the lives

of most of it's members. I think our movement has the wrong idea and

etiquette around Guru. As you know, Sridhar Maharaj thought our daily

Guru Puja and Vyas Asanas excessive, and I agree. The bowing, names,

chanting, all of that. Vaisnavism is not a Guru Cult. It's about God.

Guru means teacher. If they got nothing to teach, they should be quiet.

Prabhupada surely did not know Jyotish, nor Sanskrit. I would say

overall that Jnan was not his strength, I think compassion and militant

like devotion to this one instruction "Preach in America" were. If you

hang out with enough of his Godbrothers, you realize what he had they

didn't, and vice versa. He was for the Americans. None of his

Godbrothers have hardly any effect here. I know, I've been in or

following the SM and NM movements as they happen around me on the West

Coast here.

Personally, I never attend anything HK anymore at all, period, as I find

the hypocricy and party lines which are repeated over and over, as in

these letters, ad infinitum. It reminds me of the Catholic crap my

mother and the Irish went through, constantly telling each other that

the chains are actually their friends, and that bondage is actually holy.

It's not.

I'm glad I'm finally discovering this. I think our movement is really

cool in some ways, really very, but in others, dangerous like other

brain dead overly devoted faiths.

This paragraph is particularly of the Hare Krishna style, which I used

to use alot also, which lead ultimately to me being near dead:

Natabar wrote:

I wonder how sometimes some people give their childish opinion about SP.

That he was like this or he was like that and really they are only

giving their speculative opinion disguised as the opinion of "advanced

devotees". From our low level of understanding we have to be told by

high level devotees, otherwise we miss the point. And this goes for the

trying to read the horoscope of an exalted personality. There are no

astrological rules to "discover" an exalted personality, because their

life is empowered by God, and therefore beyond material labels.

Unfortunately, we will always have people "presuming" to know, when in

reality they do not know anything. We have to learn to detect the real

Macoys.

There are so many problems with this paragraph, but I'm gonna do my best:

1. "I wonder how sometimes some people give their childish opinion about

SP." You cannot and would not speak like this in other circles, say

the business world. Notice he "wonders", implying it's just "so odd" and

"beyond his comprehension" how people could possibly do something SO

CHILDISH as to discuss their spiritual master or a famous person and

while doing so give their opinions about him. Are you not giving yours

by these indirect massive praises of him? And, by the way, I find total

devotion without question, which you are showing here, to be the one

that is childish. I think those who are balanced are more correct

actually, as in fact, Prabhupada isn't perfect, and cannot be in this

world, and therefore, has to choose, and has to harm some, favor others,

make some mad, etc etc... It's called life. Claiming someone is a Jesus

is just going to lead to stupid emotional sentimental religion and wars.

2. "giving their speculative opinion disguised as the opinion of

"advanced devotees"".... which is EXACTLY what you are doing right now

by acting as if you KNOW they are wrong, you are right, and Prabhupada

is just absolutely the cats meow in Guru material, which personally, I

don't agree with by the way. I like him. But that we know. We've heard

enough of the drival that goes on and on about how great he is. Ever

notice how some of your godbrothers who were so Jai Prabhupada all the

time and now they're very normal, and get angry, and are chasing young

girls when in their 50's, and so on. That's all fine, but it's not a

sign of having become "shanti" or "dhira" even though DIRECTLY in

Prabahupda's association for years.

And I'll "Speculate" and tell you why I think MANY of his CLOSEST

disciples became CRIMINALS even while running the movement and after:

Simply because Prabhupada, for the sake of the expansion of HIS movement

and the distribution of HIS books, both of which always had HIS name on

the signs and covers at HIS request with really massive glorifying

titles on them which HE instructed his disciples to ALWAYS put on

everything.

He was going to have "The Guru of the Americans" painted on his car in

India, but stopped just shy. You see, he was a kindof businessman and

advertising personality, not exactly an austere renounced sage. He was

of the firey preaching type obviously. He was always passionate. We

learned that from his friend who lived with him for so long.

The blind fanatical way you speak led to the confusion that followed.

The movement got embroiled in years of simply talking about Guru and so

on. Many people, including me, wasted huge chunks of our lives doing

meaningless money collecting and services for stupid fools in their 30's

and 40's who were having the ego trips of their lives, after his death,

with his golden approval on it, because he didn't think through

successorship at all until his last breaths, but it was too late.

The successorship of the lineage after Prabhupada was a mess that is

still in court and still causing murders and more as you know.

3. "From our low level of understanding we have to be told by high level

devotees, otherwise we miss the point." You just said that often

"advanced devotees" are liers. OK, so how does a beginner know? Answer:

They can't. Sridhar Maharaja covered this nicely in Sri Guru and his

Grace. It's KARMA or FORTUNE as to the ability to FIGURE OUT FOR

OURSELVES who we are going to follow. Aha, it's in the chart.

4. "And this goes for the trying to read the horoscope of an exalted

personality." Wrong, you can read the horoscopes of 'exalted

personalities'. In fact, the chart will either prove or disprove their

so called exaltedness. There are MANY rules in Jyotish for this. I have

placements in my own chart that clearly say in Jataka Tattva clearly

things about devotion to Guru and so on. I completely disagree with

this. I think Prabupada was his chart, like everybody else, and it's

pretty obvious in his chart he's going to be great, which either lagna

you choose. And to many of us, he's another historical figure. We do not

have to honor your sentiments in our lives. We do not. Your reproach

adds up therefore to the repreach of an "ave maria" lady in South

America being pissed off at me for openly saying I'm not a Paulist

Christian. Hey, take a hike.

5. "There are no astrological rules to "discover" an exalted

personality, because their life is empowered by God, and therefore

beyond material labels."

This is totally NOT true. There are MANY astrological rules for

discovering a great personality. The books are full of references to

religiosity, spritituality placements. Read the 9th chapter of Jataka

Tattva for the largest set I've seen yet, but just the "Mahapurush

Yogas", well they're named "Great Peron Placements", that's what it

means. Then there are yogas for great travelling preachers, great givers

of knowledge, great lovers of God. I think you're very wrong here.

Like Druids and Brahmins often have done, they have "kept" the secrets

by acting as if there are some, when often there are not. "Empowered by

God" sure is a great confusing telephone line to refer to which nobody

can see, which sends the sentimental masses back home confused and

praying, just where you want them.

"...and therefore beyond material labels..."

end of discussion kids...go home...can't talk about Prabhupada, he's

absolutely perfect and I'm telling you, and I'm the temple president, oh

and therefore, I'm perfect too, because I'm his rep, and well,

therefore, I'll sit behind the desk and talk to the woman all day, while

you guys go out and collect "for the pure devotee Prabhupada" but bring

the money to me here, since I'm the big cheese at this temple, and I'll

just sneak a little for my personal 401K etc., my investements, after

all, I'm a "big devotee" and "krishna needs me here.."

So yeah devotees, uhhh, the reason I have to have nice things is because

I'm the big cheese here, you know, prabhupadas rep, but you all are

making so much advancement giving up your youths collecting all this

money that will be wasted since we think we're above everybody, so we

build temples without permits, then we have to tear them down...

Our movement was a modern excercise in religious bigotry, but the good

news is that it injected the thing. Prabhupada did succeed, but the

sooner the world is done with sentimental stuff like what you promoted

in these statements, both in Eastern as well as Western religions, then

the sooner real accountability, real relationships, and real progress

can be made between religious leaders and the people.

I have determined that it's fine to fell such devotee inside oneself,

and fine to say it to others who feel the same, but I personally don't

feel that highly of Prabhupada like you do, nor do many on this list,

and therefore you come off kindof condescending, since we cannot agree

with you verbatim, but you word it like "it's so sad that others are not

like me", and you act like a father to all, gently urging them to

understand this obvious truth they've missed. Such is the mood of the

HK's. Always has been. It's really not a very intelligent looking and

therefore attractive mood. That's why only youths join our movement

pretty much, adults can see the scatalia.

6. "Unfortunately, we will always have people "presuming" to know, when

in reality they do not know anything."

To a real Hindu, or Celt, nothing is said to be "unfortunately", because

lamenting the real is not done. You even admit "we will always have...",

so why lament? Secondly, people must presume to know what they feel

they know, otherwise they cannot act. You are presuming you are correct

as you write what you write, in fact, it's quite obvious you really

believe what you are writing, there's even a hint of santimony to boot.

But especially the last line, very "Prabhupada-esque". He often called

all men "boys" and all woman "girls", in America anyway, a bit

contemptuous I'd say, he didn't do that in India. Anyway, he would say

drastic generalizations which you repeat here like "...is reality they

do not know anything".

Now, lets see, Robert Koch commented heavily on Prabhupadas chart. Did

you mean him? A disciple of prabhupada who did 20 yrs as a Brmcri. Him?

Me? Who is so bogus that you're referring to. Can you name this

person who "does not know anything".

Prabhupada said things like "these Mayavadi speculators, they have no

knowledge". Things like that. You hear it on the tapes all the time. By

such statements his disciples learned such bigotry. Other Gurus, most,

do not speak like that. Prabhupada liked militancy, and therefore liked

Bhaktisidhantas rude and militant style also, and imitated it. He said

so himself on a walk in Mayapur. That he was trying to be like, but was

not as good as, his Guru, "who was the real thing". The real thing, when

he went to Vrnadavan on tour, got all shops shut in his face due to

protest of the residents for his insulting ways.

This is also our sampradaya. Myself, I'm for removing the holiness, and

making them accountable, just like in the Catholic Church. If you want

to be a teacher, you had better be right, and no more of this Prabhupada

style holier than thou name calling stuff.

As far as I'm concerned, in general, Hare Krishna devotees are not nice,

nor enlightened. I think we did service, and will be justly rewarded,

but as far as developing yogic qualities, many simply developed their

passion, and you do not find them, when they leave, living sattvic

lives. No, it was the army. It wasn't the high council. It was the front

line grunt with the militant general. That's my opinion. We cleared the

way alot, and took the first hits...cannon fodder....it's all good, him

and us, but hey, this is my opinion, I think the kind of pure devotee

canned lines you and dhira are bandying about ultimately won't do either

of you any good. This kind of "my lineage" and so forth is dead. The new

age needs new ways. Adjust. It's time for delivery, specialization,

honesty most of all. Honesty. Deliver something, don't be everything,

and definitely don't try to be the one be all and end all source of

spiritual truth, above all others. Bhaktisidhanta clearly had this

sanctimonious mood, and so did Prabhupada, and therefore so did his

disciples. I reject it, I quit, I hug everyone now, and I'm still a

Vaisnava, but I'm sure not into Sanctimony. I can't even be around

devotees because of the absurd amount of time spent sortof telling each

other how right we are, like you and dhira are doing here publicly,

which I used to do, but I've changed.

==============

7. "We have to learn to detect the real Macoys."

This is beautiful. You have no idea. I am born from Clann MacAoid, as

it's properly written, sometimes called MacKay, MacKey, MacCoy etc

So Natabar, you are currently reading the words of a real MacCoy. In

fact, sitting next to me is my newly acquired Gaelic/Celtic library, now

about 2 feet high and growing. Love it. Call me Ngetal MacAoid, and just

know that I'm having fun.

==============

Sorry for seeming hard. I just really think we will all grow much more

now if we drop worshipping people completely and just talk about

science, technique, application, etc. You can pause NOW AND THEN to give

out awards to big donators to the cause, like Abhay, yes, honorifics, I

don't care anymore, he's Abhay, anyway, we no longer have the political

and social structures that required and supported that system you and I

gave our lives to which now neither of us can stand really (standard

ISKCON temples complete with the Kanishta mood). So why keep repeating it?

Drop all Srila's and so on. Forget all external honorifics. Goods are

the thing. The goods. Love is automatic.

It doesn't have to be taught.

When you start saying people are bad cuzz they love wrong, which is what

you're doing, then you become very wrong yourself. Be very careful. I

admit my past nature in this way. I repent. As I teach in the future

what I know, I will make sure my students know that I am just one of

them too, and that they too should learn, then share with those who

follow them. It's that simple. Learn, then teach and always try to apply

as per your own life and choice. So simple. Dakshina is dead, so now

Brahmins must charge. Simple. Offer something, actually teach, leave out

the cult drival sanctimony comments, and you're awesome!

One last thing: Prabhupada was incredibly insulting to many without

apology. This mood carries on to this day. So now I'm going to publicly

say, that if I were at one of his lectures, and he called my countryman,

as he did many times, just a bunch of dogs, hogs, camels, and asses, I

would stand up and tell him to Fuck Off and go back to India and I'd

walk out. That's what I'd do now, today, if I heard him say that.

So do I think his books are so great, no, I do not. They're full of

anger and hate, you can feel it as soon as you start reading. Same with

Bhaktisidhanta. I've crossed sides. I appreciate them for what they are,

the progrenitors of Vaisnava thought into the West, and for that I'm

incredibly happy to know them, grateful, and very appreciative.

But this other India hate garbage that brought, that we can do without

here. We in America believe in equality for all, freedom of religion.

It's about living side by side peacefully and just "live and let live".

It works, and works well.

Yes, it needs spiritual improvement, I agree. Prabhupadas mood attracted

militant men alot, and these men caused serious trouble doing as much or

more damage to the name Hare Krishna in society as good. It's a toss up,

but I think it leans in the sad direction, the "more damage" direction.

I think Prabhupada, in that way, blew it by ever being negative like

that. Remember, I was with Hansadutta close and personal for years. I

saw it first hand. This person was very trained by Prabhupada, including

in cheating in many ways, passports, tickets, phones, you know all this

stuff, most devotees do. Hansadutta knew very little about Vaisnavism,

very little. A devotee around Sridhar Maharaj for one year knows more

than any ISKCON Guru in 1980. It's sad. They knew Cult and they knew

collecting etc., but they didn't know Vaisnavism, as teaching them it

was not Prabhupada's aim. His aim was size, granduer, success,

recognition, and so on.

When instructing the crew about building the Mayapur temple he told them

to get a night crew going, have 24 hour building, to get it DONE and

make it "taller than all other temples for miles around, so that mine is

taller than my Godbrothers temples"

This mood was always there. Also, pushiness which was insensitive. Tired

devotees were told to "again go on marathons" over and over. It was

abuse. Nothing was set aside for their old age, nothing. Our movement

was a travesty when it came to carring for it's own and I have to fault

leadership first, and that's you know who, first.

So stop covering his trails with threatening sounding Sanctimonious

verbage which turns off every thinking person. That sentiment won't save

you. Get REAL.

Peace, Das Goravani

The original section of the article talked about:

.....I just have read something about how the Mayas came to this cycle, I

am tired and I need to search for that file, I will elaborate later on

about it.

You

"What we should do in cases like that? In my opinion, we should follow

the guidelines from liberated souls."

you

<<I agree. It's a pity they can be found only very rarely these days.>>

me

Yes, but according to our good karma we come across them. And even if

there are not liberated souls around, as long as a guru follows

sincerely the instructions of a liberated soul, that is enough to get

empowerment. Even if that power is only 1% in a guru, that is enough to

give us the idea, shelter and success in our spiritual path.

you

"Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada knew more about jyotish than some of his

disciples want to think he did not know."

<<Indeed, besides that, he belongs to the category of liberated souls

whom we have to follow.>>

I would say as my guru told us, that SP is a saktyavesa avatar, a

powered liberated soul, or a soul 100% empowered, and therefore

difficult to understand his mind and ways.