Guest guest Posted July 25, 2002 Report Share Posted July 25, 2002 Natbara What if I tell you murdering civillians was also an act of god, kind of like God wanted this to happen and the Americans were merely an instrument. Why do you assume God is always benevolent? Moreover, as long as you qualify it as your personal opinion, it is fine, but you really don't have the right to "deem" something as right or wrong, even if it involves murder of civillians. Whether civillians were killed or not really does not matter. Americans, like Arjun did what they believed was best for them, and the Japs and the Germans acted as per their beliefs, it's as simple as that. "Rightness" and "wrongness" are creations of our individual minds. And by the way (this is totally unconnected to this), I just saw a program on History channel where they found a submerged structure off the coast of Japan which some archeaologists believe is older than any other known structure, even older than the pyramids. It seems your theory about elites dominating media and supressing news is just paranoia. --- Natabara Das <natabara wrote: > Japan, GermanyDear Denis > > you > <<In all this, it's easy to see why Arjuna was so reluctant to fight, > isn't it? He had no desire for slaughter either, but it was necessary to > fight his cousin's evil. The only way to do it.>> > > me > We have a great science called Dhanurveda,or the military science inthe > Vedas. Wars are sometimes neccessary because the military are like the > immune systemin the body making sure to fight any foreing bug. > > Yes, Arjuna fought and won the Kuruksetra War,but he did not murder > civilians. That is my point. > > you > <<I'm not saying dropping the bomb was right--it's always terrible to > lose innocent lives, natabara--but I can tell you why it was done--to > save more lives, on our side>> > > me > Whatever the excuse, murder brings a heavy reaction. > > Best wishes > Natabara das > > > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2002 Report Share Posted July 26, 2002 In a message dated Fri, 26 Jul 2002 06:16:20 +0100 (BST), indigenius writes a number of comments: > Natbara Why do you assume God is always benevolent? May I take this moment to respond that God as Creator is necessarily creative and this continues even now, the creative unfoldment....while "Destroyer" is not a common name for God... many have been taught that God is Good. > you really don't have the right to "deem" something as right or wrong, Why not allow Natabara his point of view!?! There's so much he offers to us to think about....I have been thinking hard myself, about some of his enlightening statements...I may have comments soon! > > Whether civillians were killed or not really does not matter. Hello! It's the moral basis for outrage, that's all... "Rightness" > and "wrongness" are creations of our individual minds. Something as universal as right or wrong (i.e. good versus evil)....cannot be such an individual creation but more of a universal truth; the decision to choose to do right or wrong,(to act in the way that is good versus in the way that is evil) though...that's one's daily personal choice. > It seems your > theory about elites > dominating media and supressing news is just paranoia. Now, I just opinionated to myself that your comment is not only discourteous to a listmember, I thought to myself that your conclusion is wrong, too! But I respect your point of view! :-D Best to you, Carol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2002 Report Share Posted July 26, 2002 It seems your > theory about elites > dominating media and supressing news is just paranoia. Now, I just opinionated to myself that your comment is not only discourteous to a listmember, I thought to myself that your conclusion is wrong, too! But I respect your point of view! :-D Best to you, Carol I know this is difficult to hear but it IS true to many of us that the elites dominate the media and suppress news items (or downplay them). <this was not to carol...but to the person who wrote above Carol up there>. I do think that the universal force comes in three forms....the creator, the destroyer and the preserver. It's akin to the forces of 'the three rings past not' that Dion Fortune mentions in her Qaballah books and more mundanely centrifigal, centripetal and the forces that travel between..mutable. We assign our own meanings to the actions that are taken either by fate, karma, God...what have you. In existentialism...each experience just *is* with no good or bad attached except in the mind of the beholder. Renee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2002 Report Share Posted July 26, 2002 This has little to do with astrology but if any of you are interested search the name Catherine Austin Fitts and read what she writes about the War on Drugs and Enron as a money laundering pit for it. Just offering a little news. I'm not into conspiracy theories or rumors this women sure seems to be the real thing and a former treasury dept. worker at a high level. - LaRAZZZA (AT) aol (DOT) com gjlist Friday, July 26, 2002 9:21 PM Re: [GJ] Japan, Germany and more..... In a message dated 7/26/02 1:03:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Carolhook (AT) aol (DOT) com writes: It seems your > theory about elites > dominating media and supressing news is just paranoia. Now, I just opinionated to myself that your comment is not only discourteous to a listmember, I thought to myself that your conclusion is wrong, too! But I respect your point of view! :-D Best to you, Carol I know this is difficult to hear but it IS true to many of us that the elites dominate the media and suppress news items (or downplay them). <this was not to carol...but to the person who wrote above Carol up there>. I do think that the universal force comes in three forms....the creator, the destroyer and the preserver. It's akin to the forces of 'the three rings past not' that Dion Fortune mentions in her Qaballah books and more mundanely centrifigal, centripetal and the forces that travel between..mutable. We assign our own meanings to the actions that are taken either by fate, karma, God...what have you. In existentialism...each experience just *is* with no good or bad attached except in the mind of the beholder. Renee Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat: gjlist-http://www.goravani.comYour use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2002 Report Share Posted July 27, 2002 Just offering a little news. I'm not into conspiracy theories or rumors this women sure seems to be the real thing and a former treasury dept. worker at a high level And in light of the situation with the Homestead Security Act looming out there and Bush's desire to have it pass....check out this speech given in January of 2001 by this woman. Did you know that Bush's grandfather helped to put Hitler into power? Congressional Testimony of Dr. Deborah Hananiah Freeman on John Ashcroft Renee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2002 Report Share Posted July 27, 2002 Where did you get the info about his grandfather? Doesn't it help to mitigate if his father flew all those missions as a fighter? I've heard this before but always wondered about balancing the two. Will check out the site. THings are getting pretty exciting. Nothing like folks withholding their $$ to push justice along <great grins> c - LaRAZZZA (AT) aol (DOT) com gjlist Saturday, July 27, 2002 8:29 AM Re: [GJ] Japan, Germany and more..... In a message dated 7/26/02 7:57:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, c.a.novak (AT) worldnet (DOT) att.net writes: Just offering a little news. I'm not into conspiracy theories or rumors this women sure seems to be the real thing and a former treasury dept. worker at a high levelAnd in light of the situation with the Homestead Security Act looming out there and Bush's desire to have it pass....check out this speech given in January of 2001 by this woman. Did you know that Bush's grandfather helped to put Hitler into power? Congressional Testimony of Dr. Deborah Hananiah Freeman on John Ashcroft Renee Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat SatTo , send an email to: gjlist-http://www.goravani.comYour use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2002 Report Share Posted July 27, 2002 Dear Renee and Cynthia I have thought for a while that the level of debt that has built up is a worry . If there is some type of economic crash we can only hope that America can produce another Roosevelt . The transits look all right for the latter part of this year . Kind regards Nicholas In a message dated 7/26/02 7:57:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, c.a.novak (AT) worldnet (DOT) att.net writes: Just offering a little news. I'm not into conspiracy theories or rumors this women sure seems to be the real thing and a former treasury dept. worker at a high levelAnd in light of the situation with the Homestead Security Act looming out there and Bush's desire to have it pass....check out this speech given in January of 2001 by this woman. Did you know that Bush's grandfather helped to put Hitler into power? Congressional Testimony of Dr. Deborah Hananiah Freeman on John Ashcroft Renee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2002 Report Share Posted July 28, 2002 Where did you get the info about his grandfather? Doesn't it help to mitigate if his father flew all those missions as a fighter? Did you read her speech where she talks about Bush's grandfather putting Hitler into power and also read: Doing business with the enemy is nothing new to the Bush family. Much of the Bush family wealth came from supplying needed raw materials and credit to Adolf Hitler’s Third Reich. Several business operations managed by Prescott Bush – the president’s grandfather - were seized by the US government during World War II under the Trading with the Enemy Act. On October 20, 1942, the federal government seized the Union Banking Corporation in New York City as a front operation for the Nazis. Prescott Bush was a director. Bush, E. Roland Harriman, two Bush associates, and three Nazi executives owned the bank’s shares. Eight days later, the Roosevelt administration seized two other corporations managed by Prescott Bush. The Holland-American Trading Corporation and the Seamless Steel Equipment Corporation, both managed by the Bush-Harriman bank, were accused by the US federal government of being front organizations for Hitler’s Third Reich. Again, on November 8, 1942, the federal government seized Nazi-controlled assets of Silesian-American Corporation, another Bush-Harriman company doing business with Hitler. Taken from here: Bush family’s dirty little secret: President’s oil companies funded by Bin Lade Also read the article below the first article (might be a bit strong for some of you...the first one) which also cites history in regards to the Bush family at this site: The Weekly J This is a well-known fact amongst historian's so it's not new 'slander'...it's fact. As far as his father doing flight missions as a fighter ummmmmmmm....what has that got to do with all the crap he did in office as well as his son, the current President? We're sorta talking about here and now and what can happen if we're not resistant to having our freedom's taken away 'in the name of' whatever Bush is selling at the moment. I watched on CNN yesterday afternoon the House voting on amendments to the Homestead Act and it was illuminating indeed. Bush was outraged that this Act was not passed the way he wanted it to be passed and that he would veto it yadda yadda (seemed like a tantrum from a spoiled child demanding dictatorship). I can understand war when necessary however I do not understand declaring a war on a country (no matter how 'justified' it seems to some) that has not invaded or attacked us. We already have a war going on elsewhere and I don't entirely agree about that war either. Methinks thou doth protest too much (Bush). Strange days indeed... Renee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2002 Report Share Posted July 28, 2002 Renee I don't have a lot of time right now. When I posted that message I had not yet gone to the site you posted. It would however seem to follow if we are talking about what Bush's grandfather did in putting Hitler into power (which he was by no means alone) that Bush Sr. flying all those missions against Hitler would in some way mitigate if that is indeed true. THat was the only point I was making. c Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2002 Report Share Posted August 12, 2002 Dear Siddharta You << What if I tell you murdering civillians was also an act of god, kind of like God wanted this to happen and the Americans were merely an instrument. Why do you assume God is always benevolent?>> me Here I can see some of your misconceptions. Although there is not a single blade of grass moving without the sanction of the Lord, we have to learn that God has nothing to do with our nonsense. First of all, should we blame the president or leader of a nation for the activities done by the prisoners in a jail?. No, the prisoners are free to act according to their nature. We all have predeterminism and free will. Although Providence always draws our destiny, our free will can change some things. Sometimes a murderer kills by the force of his nature, he cannot help it, but sometimes, the murderer is given a choice to decide what to do or what not to do. According to intention and karma the soul is given a body by Mother Durga (Nature). When a soul reincarnates in a body destined to be the president of a nation, no body can change that destiny. And if a soul gets a body destined to be a murderer, no body can change destiny. However, sometimes a chance to do good is given and if chosen well, the soul can move to higher levels of life, but if choosing wrong, the soul goes down to lower levels of life. God has nothing to do with the movements of the soul. We are here on this level because of our choice. Regarding what you say of the Americans being an instrument. We all are instruments but we pray that we are giving the intelligence to do good and the privilege to chose. When our real intelligence is taking away, we commit mistakes and therefore we will go down. In the Bhagavad Gita we can read that God told Arjuna that all those warriors assembled in the great battle of Kuruksetra were already killed by time and that Arjuna was only an instrument of His divine designs. The difference being that because God sanctioned that particular battle, every single warrior losing his life achieved liberation. In other wars that are materially motivated, God has not intervention and therefore, soldiers there do not get liberated. And regarding "Why do you assume God is always benevolent?". The Vedic scriptures say that God is always benevolent. Because he is the supreme Good, anything coming from Him has to be good. Otherwise God cannot be God. However, depending on our mundane senses, we can see God according to our measures. you <<Moreover, as long as you qualify it as your personal opinion, it is fine, but you really don't have the right to "deem" something as right or wrong, even if it involves murder of civillians. me What to say to this? I did get the dictionary to read the meaning of "deem" and I get, believe, consider or judge. Therefore I would like to ask you, who is drawing this "rule" to me. I believe that we are still living in a free world and therefore we all have the right to deem about any subject matter. I have to say that I have the right of deem about the murder of civilians in Mexico, Japan, or anywhere else. That is my belief and opinion. Are you going to send me to jail for that? You <<Whether civillians were killed or not really does not matter. Americans, like Arjun did what they believed was best for them, and the Japs and the Germans acted as per their beliefs, it's as simple as that. "Rightness" and "wrongness" are creations of our individual minds. >> me With all my respects, I do not agree here with you. Are you saying that the murdering of innocent people should not get a reaction? In which planet do you live? Murder is murder and the law of karma sort that out. I think that you are mixing water with chocolate. You should learn the Bhagavad Gita from a bona fide guru. You cannot compare Arjuna with imperfect politicians that are manipulated by their belief that they are a material body. I agree that right and wrong are a part of the mental energy and therefore we accept or reject according to our conditionments, but higher than the mental energy we have the intelligence and even higher that this is the false ego and even higher is the pure soul. All this is explained in the Bhagavad Gita, a book that we should study under the guidance of a guru. you <<And by the way (this is totally unconnected to this), I just saw a program on History channel where they found a submerged structure off the coast of Japan which some archeaologists believe is older than any other known structure, even older than the pyramids. It seems your theory about elites dominating media and suppressing news is just paranoia.>> me I am baffled, I do not see the link of what you saw in that programme with what you call my paranoia. Let me tell you something witch your brain is likely to distort to satisfy your concoctions. On August 13 1968, my school of Architecture started an strike in our university. Days after some 100,000 students in all the Mexico University were in strike. Students demanded a simple dialogue with the government to come to terms with a settlement. At that time the politicians in charge of the government were so proud that did do not want to listen. On October 2nd the students were given a talk to many people in Mexico City, when the military were given the order to kill. Although we knew that the media was manipulated, we could not believe that next day the media said that only 39 people were death and blaming the students for it. Medical students working in hospitals counted more than 500 death civilians killed by that massacre. Later on, neighbours to that place confirmed 500+ deaths. We knew that the media was manipulated because the Olympic games were going to start on 12th October and the multimillion $ sponsorship was in risk of being lost. Therefore, by persuasion, bribes, intimidation, coercion or manipulation, the "official" media told lies, which people on the know knew to be lies. Many foreign journalists were at the scene of that murdering and even a lady journalist from Poland managed to smuggle a film out of Mexico, showing the evidence of that massacre. And what is more, she wrote a book. But in Mexico, that book was forbidden to be published. And the media continued telling lies. 34 years after, the main responsible for that massacre is this month under trial. He eventually became president of Mexico for 6 years from 1970 to 1976. I could give you other examples of how the media is manipulated or I am sure that many members of this list can give you their own evidence of the injustices and media manipulation done in their countries. But knowing your interesting mentality, I am sure that you are likely to reject the obvious evidence. Another last example for you to think is given in a book published by the Open University. The Open University in Great Britain, offers home courses to any student. There are different courses on Sociology, computers, religion etc. In one of those books used by students, it says that a very rich guy (I do not give here his name to avoid debates) bought more than 150 newspapers all around the world, in US, UK, Australia etc. The guy is so influential that he gave his orders to all the editors of his newspapers to No publish anything bad against the Chiness authorities, because the guy wants to make business (profits) in China, and therefore does not want to spoil his diplomatic efforts with that country. Should I have to explain to you that with such an authocratic attitude we do not have the chance to read the real news, because those newspapers will never publish the truth? And I could send you many articles for you to study and investigate if other media powers are in a similar position, but I do not want to convince you, it is up to you to make your own homework and find the truth by yourself. I do not have the time to try to convince people. Those that already know do not need to be convinced. I have heard many times people living in rich countries saying "Oh no, that kind of corruption cannot happen in my country, perhaps it can be found in poor countries but not here" I only tell you, that most of people living in poor countries are aware of the corruption going on upstairs and were corruption is more gross, and in rich countries we can see the same corruption but done more subtle and hidden. Just have a look around and see for yourself, you may be surprised to see reality. Best wishes Natabara das * Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2002 Report Share Posted August 12, 2002 Natbara I can see you put a lot of time into your reply. It is always refreshing to hear the opposing opinions. Thanks. Siddhartha. PS. I think you misunderstood the "paranoia" part of my email. I was just amazed (and still am), that in a capitalist society, where media runs with only one objective (money) and tries to sensationalize everything, that the truly astonishing discovery in Russsia went unreported by everybody but the Russians. When the history channel could report the discovery of that strucutre off the coast of Japan (and if you ever get a chance to see it, you will see that they admit to going against the established academic viewpoints), why would they not report the Russian discovery? Anyways, this is a stupid thing to argue about on a list devoted to Jyotish. Let's end it here. gjlist, "Natabara Das" <natabara@n...> wrote: > Dear Siddharta > > > > You > > << What if I tell you murdering civillians was also an act of god, kind of > like God wanted this to happen and the Americans were merely an > instrument. Why do you assume God is always benevolent?>> > > > > me > > Here I can see some of your misconceptions. Although there is not a single > blade of grass moving without the sanction of the Lord, we have to learn > that God has nothing to do with our nonsense. > > > > First of all, should we blame the president or leader of a nation for the > activities done by the prisoners in a jail?. No, the prisoners are free to > act according to their nature. > > We all have predeterminism and free will. Although Providence always draws > our destiny, our free will can change some things. > > > > Sometimes a murderer kills by the force of his nature, he cannot help it, > but sometimes, the murderer is given a choice to decide what to do or what > not to do. > > > > According to intention and karma the soul is given a body by Mother Durga > (Nature). When a soul reincarnates in a body destined to be the president > of a nation, no body can change that destiny. And if a soul gets a body > destined to be a murderer, no body can change destiny. However, sometimes a > chance to do good is given and if chosen well, the soul can move to higher > levels of life, but if choosing wrong, the soul goes down to lower levels of > life. > > > > God has nothing to do with the movements of the soul. We are here on this > level because of our choice. > > > > Regarding what you say of the Americans being an instrument. We all are > instruments but we pray that we are giving the intelligence to do good and > the privilege to chose. > > > > When our real intelligence is taking away, we commit mistakes and therefore > we will go down. > > In the Bhagavad Gita we can read that God told Arjuna that all those > warriors assembled in the great battle of Kuruksetra were already killed by > time and that Arjuna was only an instrument of His divine designs. > > > > The difference being that because God sanctioned that particular battle, > every single warrior losing his life achieved liberation. In other wars > that are materially motivated, God has not intervention and therefore, > soldiers there do not get liberated. > > > > And regarding "Why do you assume God is always benevolent?". The Vedic > scriptures say that God is always benevolent. Because he is the supreme > Good, anything coming from Him has to be good. Otherwise God cannot be God. > > > > However, depending on our mundane senses, we can see God according to our > measures. > > > > you > <<Moreover, as long as you qualify it as your personal opinion, it is fine, > but you really don't have the right to "deem" something as right or wrong, > even if it involves murder of civillians. > > > > me > > What to say to this? I did get the dictionary to read the meaning of "deem" > and I get, believe, consider or judge. > > > > Therefore I would like to ask you, who is drawing this "rule" to me. I > believe that we are still living in a free world and therefore we all have > the right to deem about any subject matter. I have to say that I have the > right of deem about the murder of civilians in Mexico, Japan, or anywhere > else. That is my belief and opinion. > > > > Are you going to send me to jail for that? > > > > You > > <<Whether civillians were killed or not really does not matter. Americans, > like Arjun did what they believed was best for them, and the Japs and the > Germans acted as per their beliefs, it's as simple as that. "Rightness" > and "wrongness" are creations of our individual minds. >> > > > > me > > With all my respects, I do not agree here with you. Are you saying that the > murdering of innocent people should not get a reaction? In which planet do > you live? Murder is murder and the law of karma sort that out. > > > > I think that you are mixing water with chocolate. You should learn the > Bhagavad Gita from a bona fide guru. You cannot compare Arjuna with > imperfect politicians that are manipulated by their belief that they are a > material body. > > > > I agree that right and wrong are a part of the mental energy and therefore > we accept or reject according to our conditionments, but higher than the > mental energy we have the intelligence and even higher that this is the > false ego and even higher is the pure soul. All this is explained in the > Bhagavad Gita, a book that we should study under the guidance of a guru. > > > > you > <<And by the way (this is totally unconnected to this), I just saw a program > on History channel where they found a submerged structure off the coast of > Japan which some archeaologists believe is older than any other known > structure, even older than the pyramids. It seems your theory about elites > dominating media and suppressing news is just paranoia.>> > > > > me > > I am baffled, I do not see the link of what you saw in that programme with > what you call my paranoia. > > > > Let me tell you something witch your brain is likely to distort to satisfy > your concoctions. > > > > On August 13 1968, my school of Architecture started an strike in our > university. Days after some 100,000 students in all the Mexico University > were in strike. Students demanded a simple dialogue with the government to > come to terms with a settlement. At that time the politicians in charge of > the government were so proud that did do not want to listen. > > > > On October 2nd the students were given a talk to many people in Mexico City, > when the military were given the order to kill. Although we knew that the > media was manipulated, we could not believe that next day the media said > that only 39 people were death and blaming the students for it. > > > > Medical students working in hospitals counted more than 500 death civilians > killed by that massacre. Later on, neighbours to that place confirmed 500+ > deaths. > > > > We knew that the media was manipulated because the Olympic games were going > to start on 12th October and the multimillion $ sponsorship was in risk of > being lost. Therefore, by persuasion, bribes, intimidation, coercion or > manipulation, the "official" media told lies, which people on the know knew > to be lies. > > > > Many foreign journalists were at the scene of that murdering and even a lady > journalist from Poland managed to smuggle a film out of Mexico, showing the > evidence of that massacre. And what is more, she wrote a book. > > > > But in Mexico, that book was forbidden to be published. And the media > continued telling lies. > > > > 34 years after, the main responsible for that massacre is this month under > trial. He eventually became president of Mexico for 6 years from 1970 to > 1976. > > > > I could give you other examples of how the media is manipulated or I am sure > that many members of this list can give you their own evidence of the > injustices and media manipulation done in their countries. > > > > But knowing your interesting mentality, I am sure that you are likely to > reject the obvious evidence. > > > > Another last example for you to think is given in a book published by the > Open University. The Open University in Great Britain, offers home courses > to any student. There are different courses on Sociology, computers, > religion etc. In one of those books used by students, it says that a very > rich guy (I do not give here his name to avoid debates) bought more than 150 > newspapers all around the world, in US, UK, Australia etc. The guy is so > influential that he gave his orders to all the editors of his newspapers to > No publish anything bad against the Chiness authorities, because the guy > wants to make business (profits) in China, and therefore does not want to > spoil his diplomatic efforts with that country. Should I have to explain to > you that with such an authocratic attitude we do not have the chance to read > the real news, because those newspapers will never publish the truth? > > > > And I could send you many articles for you to study and investigate if other > media powers are in a similar position, but I do not want to convince you, > it is up to you to make your own homework and find the truth by yourself. > > > > I do not have the time to try to convince people. Those that already know > do not need to be convinced. I have heard many times people living in rich > countries saying "Oh no, that kind of corruption cannot happen in my > country, perhaps it can be found in poor countries but not here" > > > > I only tell you, that most of people living in poor countries are aware of > the corruption going on upstairs and were corruption is more gross, and in > rich countries we can see the same corruption but done more subtle and > hidden. Just have a look around and see for yourself, you may be surprised > to see reality. > > > > Best wishes > > Natabara das > > * Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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