Japan, Germany

[Guest guest]

In regard to the nuclear bombs on Japan cities, i may be called

un-patriotic, but my consciousness tells me to say that in my humble

opinion, it was just murder.

We have to see that those in power have to justify their activities with

political motivated propaganda, which in most cases are just lies.

Natabara, what you say may be possible.

I can tell you the logic used on dropping the bombs in Japan, however, having

read biiographies of Harry S Truman. Here goes: It was due to the Japanese

putting up such resistence in other invasion during the War. We knew they would

fight, man to man tooth and nail to avoid invasion. Therefore, to save Allied

lives this was the opition. They were told of what was going to happen--it was

veiled--but they were told, all right. Now there is descrepcy in some

accounts--some say the Japanese answer was "No." Others say their response was

"We'll think about it". But that's why it was dropped. We knew the

non-combatants would become combants, they would not take to invasion easily,

or willingly unless this was done. We wopuld have lost thousands of lives on

out side if we invaded on foot. We were trying to save our troops.They were

given the opption to surrender before hand, they turned it down. The bombs were

dropped. It saved thousands, maybe millions. Allied lives that would have been

lost during an invasion of the mainland...(I want to say Okinawa was invaded

before this--and that was what led tot he decision--but I really can't

remember, and can't find McCollough's book, either.)

Another thing that probably entered into this--and avoiding the loss of Allied

lives--Truman was a calvary officer in WWI who saw plenty of action--and

atrocity--in France during that war. Military minds are interested in doing

what will certainly save/protect their troops, Natabara. Truman saw what had

happened before with his own eyes, was now getting all these reports of what

was going on in WWII, while he was Vice President--but didn't know about the

bomb until he assumed President at Roosevelt's death.

Please don't forget that the two powers controlling the Japanese and the Germans

were racists and very..severe in it.. If you weren't of pure blood, you were to

be made a slave. or killed. And that meant pure Japnese or German/Aryan--and

they weren't talking about the Indian/Aryans, either. How many forced marches

did the Allies put people on in Asia? How many death camps did we set up?

(Zilch) Also don't forget that the Japanese who had been living in China for

several generations (I think it might have been for as long as 200 years, but

again, I can't recall this one for sure,) fought on the side of the Japanese,

rather than for China at the invasion of China..this led to the interment of

the Japanese here in the US. Our govt. freaked out and decided it could happen

here too.

It would have been nice if the japanese govt. had told it's citizens what was

about to happen, so they could have left town, too, wouldn't it? They kept them

in the dark about this too, you know.

Hey and while I'm at the fun war facts, Robin Hood--Errol Flynn became a Nazi spy!

Therefore we always will have 2 different kind of news, one set of news for

the general public and another set of alternative news for the well

informed.

Therefore, history can be written according to the set of news.

Few days ago i did see on TV a programme about how during the World War II,

the British allowed a guy to lead in a certain direction about how to attack

the Germans. That guy said that by bombing the cities, Germany would

surrender faster. In this way the British bombed many German cities, and in

the last one, Dresden, the "allies" dropped more bombs in 3 months than in

the whole year of 1944. In Dresden alone some 50,000 civilians were

murdered.

I'm clueless on this one. Other than a lot of bombs were dropped on England

before hand on civilians, and the Germans were very powerful, having already

taken over Poland, Czechoslvakia, France. For the Allies, imagine how

frightening and how huge the German Italian war machine must has seemed to have

been.

One friend of mine a German would talk about how his grandfather managed to miss

out on going tothe Russian front. The commander of his unit said for everyone

with 4 children to step back and he did with a couple of other guys. That

sacved him. Everyone else went to the front, and probably froze to death...they

all died, I remember the guy saying.

In all this, it's easy to see why Arjuna was so reluctant to fight, isn't it? He

had no desire for slaughter either, but it was necessary to fight his cousin's

evil. The only way to do it.

I'm not saying dropping the bomb was right--it's always terrible to lose

innocent lives, natabara--but I can tell you why it was done--to save more

lives, on our side...

Honestly, if Gandhi had been allowed to try passive resistance, we know darn

well Hitler, Tojo, Musselini, (And Stalin--had Gandhi tried it in Russia--our

ally--)whomever, would just have swept up his people--everyone of them, and put

them before a firing sqaud too.

And to save Pakistani lives I suppose would be the logic in using the bombs

there, to their govt's mind...except there are so many Indians, the Indians

would be saying, "Yeah, go ahead, it won't matter. We'll still over run you if

we have to."

[Guest guest]

I'm thinking of kuja dosha, the Mars affliction found in some birthcharts,

wherein the person so afflicted can easily become a victim of an abusive

spouse--unless that spouse has the same kuja dosha in his/her chart.

 

I'm thinking about the Civil War in the United States, when brother murdered

brother. The Civil War was fought by the Southern states in order to keep

the institution of slavery intact. The North fought to free slaves from

their terrible oppression. Both sides committed murder. How would God view

the motives of each; what would be the likely judgement concerning each

side's participation in this murderous war?

 

I'm thinking about the wanton murders of children and mothers and civilians

in Israel. I'm thinking of the recent murder of one who plotted such murders

against innocent people and encouraged young men to go out and kill innocent

people so that his political statement might be heard. Not only he, but his

wife, children, and innocent others were murdered...and yet, his intent was

to kill innocents while his murderers sought to end his bloody quest.

 

Does God look upon the act of murder or is heart's desire the place where one

is judged?

 

In Colorado and in Arizona and in Oregon there are raging wild fires burning

down thousands of acres of beautiful forest land. The firefighters often

"fight fire with fire": they set fire to an area in order to back-burn the

land and prevent the wild fire from gaining needed fuel that would bring it

to an inhabited area.

Is this a wrong thing to do, to purposefully destroy acres of trees and

possibly harm animal habitat by setting fire to it, if the intent is to deny

the wild fire's direction that will do more harm to innocent people by

reaching an inhabited area?

 

Maybe these huge wildfires are karmic retribution for the acts committed by

U.S. military's effort to murder those who murdered our own, who have taken

delight in our national anguish, who reportedly plot mass murdering of anyone

not their own. Maybe the wild fires are not retribution but part of some

other Divine plan. I do not know.

 

How many of us are avatars who would willingly give ourselves to be martyred

because a group of people have determined our presence on this earth

constitutes a threat to their particular religious philosophy and its

political power and prestige?

 

If not avatars, then, nor willing to sacrifice self just for the misguided

satisfaction of depraved and selfish murderers, what should we do...allow

innocents to die in our stead?

Or, caring deeply for our brothers and sisters, would we be willing to

sacrifice our lives in an effort to save their lives?

Or, should we do nothing but allow the subjugation of world citizenry by

those of evil intent (I am not my brother's keeper!), allowing horrors and

unspeakable tortures to be committed against my fellow world citizen without

giving resistance, allow my own family and myself to be mutilated and

murdered without me taking any effort to resist?

If I should state that I do not wish to resist evil, then should I willingly

abstain from taking any remedial measures for any situation in my life where

balance is lacking, including those instances where I or my fellow man has

become tormented by disease or misfortune?

 

Well, I don't have the definitive answers to these questions, but I do have

an idea that I'd follow Arjuna's footsteps...at least, I hope to have the

courage to fight fire with fire, if it ends the onslaught and prevents

further damage once and for all.

 

Hoping everyone is well and making good progress under the increasing Moon!

 

Love to all,

Carol

[Guest guest]

Why aren't those stories pushed out by the press that hates Americans so?

Because the world follows the 'feeding fest' of what I term 'mass mind

mentality'. It's sorta like a rumor is started based on some facts about a

person. That rumor then gives permission to anyone in the area with an axe to

grind to then jump on the bandwagon (witch hunt) and before you know

it...anyone who has hate and anger in their heart adds to that tornado

(gee..imagine the karma in that for all those who DO this. Hope I witness it

from the other side) along with those who are jealous and so on. Pretty soon

people forget what is truth and what is fiction and the circumstantial evidence

is added to the factual *stuff*. The media then adds to this like the whore

that they are in order to sell themselves to the world (our own media sucks).

Good stories don't sell newspapers but malicious gossip DOES...doesn't it?

Most people want to hear the dirt. Pretty sad IMHO. Realize this is just a

hypothetical model that I am describing.

OH...and just to give you a side view of your story. The German prisoners were

treated better then most minorities that served in WWII AFTER they got back

from the war. The Ku Klux Klan and racism were still rampant (and still is in

many areas of course). There were documented killings of black military men

hung IN their military uniforms decorated with all their medals. When the

German prisoners were transported by train around the country...they were

allowed to ride up front where it was warm and toasty. Black folk (not

prisoners) were forced to ride in the back in unheated cars in the cold. So

while on one hand you may hear good stories from the German prisoners...you

RARELY hear good stories from minorities around that time period (that may have

been heros and served their country) in just their day to day life after they

got back (and before they even left this country). Have you seen the

movie...Windwalkers ...? That Navajo movie about the unbreakable code the U.S.

used at that time and how those people were treated obviously before and after

the war? So while on one hand we have *good* reports...it's always laced with

the bad and not in the history books because it makes white folks look *bad* if

you know what I mean. Black men who served and did well thought they would be

greeted better upon coming back ...those who were idealistic...however that was

not the case nor is it the case today no matter how many people beat their

chests and say they are *tolerant*...most simply do not want their white

daughters mixing with dark men no matter how many degrees they have, how much

money they have...etc.

And while we're at it...have you seen the movie "Tuskeegee Airmen" (sp?) When

they came back from the war and arrived by boat from England, there were

military people with signs at the end of the plank and the signs said "white

personnel that way <arrow>" and "black personnel that way" so NOTHING had

changed for them. They were still treated like crap. "Jim Crow was still

alive" was the saying they used.

So until we learn 'land of the free...home of the brave' (as opposed to the

chickens*** and hypocritical) then we can't teach the world all about liberty

the way it should be.

We must first clean up our own backyard before we can clean up anyone else's and

I'm actually very patriotic, love my country (like anyone else) and wouldn't

want to be forced to live anywhere else however I think we need to stay HOME

and work on our own improvements HERE. Render unto caesar what belongs to

caesar and unto Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Afhganistan et all...what belongs to

them.

Renee

[Guest guest]

Dear Denise

 

Thank you for taking the time to offer this.

 

I have a little something to share with you. While having coffee with a group

of older folks, farmers from south east TX they told me the story of the

prisoner of war camps that housed the Germans in WWII. Apparently the

prisoners were sent to work on the farms along the coast.

 

The people got to know them and later, after the war, some of the men returned

to visit and to live in the US. They came to thank the farmers for the kind

care and the good work. The were interred at the fair grounds and were treated

well enough to return with good memories.

 

Why aren't those stories pushed out by the press that hates Americans so?

[Guest guest]

So while on one hand you may hear good stories from the German prisoners...you

RARELY hear good stories from minorities around that time period (that may have

been heros and served their country) in just their day to day life after they

got back (and before they even left this country).

 

 

I beg to differ. The bad stories are pushed forward and the good ones are not.

My impression of the south was much as yours. I had read and heard the most

heinous stories of the Klan and of prejudice. I have not encountered those in

the people. Those same farmers would have hired men who would work the land.

They were often treated like family not like slaves. So do try to remember

that every soldier was not treated badly, unfortunately too many were.

 

When we are sensitized by events we are easily led to assume that they were not

events but all inclusive. That is when we lose our heads. It is difficult not

to but necessary. The town where I grew up there were lots of Europeans.

Czechs, poles, Italians, Serbs you'd think they would all get along but boy

were there lines of prejudice. I hung out in the nearby town where there were

blacks and whites intermixed more thoroughly and had a great time! My cousin

has a multi-racial child who is loved by my formerly fair-skinned family. Who

would have thought they could make that leap but they did when they came

face-to-face with that gorgeous little girl.

 

I'm rambling, just wanted you to know that there were positive stories too, they

just didn't make the media. Those same old people who talked fondly of the

German prisoners talk fondly of their long-time neighbors who are black. Just

so you'd know. They go to different Baptist churches, but I'm sure that's

because the blacks would be bored to tears by the white Baptists and the whites

could not let themselves really enjoy church that much. It just wouldn't be

godly [great grins]

 

c

[Guest guest]

Dear Denis

 

you

<<In all this, it's easy to see why Arjuna was so reluctant to fight, isn't it?

He had no desire for slaughter either, but it was necessary to fight his

cousin's evil. The only way to do it.>>

 

me

We have a great science called Dhanurveda,or the military science inthe Vedas.

Wars are sometimes neccessary because the military are like the immune systemin

the body making sure to fight any foreing bug.

 

Yes, Arjuna fought and won the Kuruksetra War,but he did not murder civilians.

That is my point.

 

you

<<I'm not saying dropping the bomb was right--it's always terrible to lose

innocent lives, natabara--but I can tell you why it was done--to save more

lives, on our side>>

 

me

Whatever the excuse, murder brings a heavy reaction.

 

Best wishes

Natabara das

[Guest guest]

Denise:

<<In all this, it's easy to see why Arjuna was so reluctant to fight, isn't it?

He had no desire for slaughter either, but it was necessary to fight his

cousin's evil. The only way to do it.>>

Natabara:

We have a great science called Dhanurveda,or the military science in the Vedas.

Wars are sometimes necessary because the military are like the immune system in

the body making sure to fight any foreign bug.

Yes, Arjuna fought and won the Kuruksetra War, but he did not murder civilians.

That is my point.

Denise:

<<I'm not saying dropping the bomb was right--it's always terrible to lose

innocent lives, natabara--but I can tell you why it was done--to save more

lives, on our side>>

Natabara:

Whatever the excuse, murder brings a heavy reaction.

Hi Friends,

I wanted to make some comments because I have been re-thinking my own

comments about following Arjuna's lead and "fighting fire with fire."

First of all, the best 'fire' in the world is the Creative fire in one's

heart. I am not taliking about destructiveness but creativity that is always

seeking new ways to be expressed as another example of the unfolding goodness

that activates the universe.

When this goodness is magnified within a person, one can stop the tanks

approaching at Tienamen Square, can heal a congenitally blind person using mud

and spittle on his eyes, can renounce one's riches and tend to the sick and

dying, can heal wounded hearts with a hug.....and no innocents are murdered,

just the erroneous concepts of helplessness in the face of what needs fixing.

The murder of innocents, says Natabara, leads to heavy repercussions.

Perhaps that is why the people of my country have become so charitable towards

the rest of the world's hungry and sick, and why our country rebuilt Japan and

has championed the technical marvels of Germany. Perhaps that is why the

American public never actually hated the Russians during the Cold War; but

feared their leaders, while we embraced Russian art and literature and music.

Now I have heard much of Persian culture and my office mate was raised as a

Moslem in Iran, and she is a bright, happy, fun person, I feel lucky to know

her. She does not practice her religion at this time. She tells me it was so

restrictive back home where her parents are, she hates to go back there except

to see her relatives, but otherwise she finds the whole social setup is

completely stifling, and tells me that in those restrictive environs everyone

learns how to lie and cheat in order to breathe...she is simply amazed how

openly honest most Americans are in their daily lives, and says it is a

cultural thing back in her homeland, where to be honest you do not get

anywhere, so everyone with a brain learns deceptive ways in order to survive.

I don't look at her the way I did when I first met her. I look at her as a

cheerful presence now, not as a suspect from some suspicious place.

I think that the best way to fight fire with fire, is not to kill others,

but to accept that God has worked out the best path to take and I have to look

for that path each day as I grow in understanding....

I will be born in another body after this one is cast aside, so I should

not fear my own death, but be courageous enough to exemplify a concept of life

that is good for something (helpful to another human being) while I may.

My friend Patrick and I went to see Neil Michelsen a number of years ago.

Patrick asked Neil, "Do you think the poles will reverse, or some terrible

earth changes will happen? Don't you fear living in California now?" Neil

Michelsen told my friend Patrick, "I think God puts us where He wants us to be,

so that we are at the right place at the right time. If God wants you to be

spared, He will make your life go in such a way that you will still be in the

right place at the right time." Patrick was considerably eased by those

thoughts. I am, too. To me, my real temple is in my own head....that's where I

get to meet my Maker anytime day or night....and forget the dogma, there isn't

any.

Love to all,

Carol

[Guest guest]

Dear Carol, firstly, thanks for being my supportive

friend through my troubles. I really appreciate the

things you did. Secondly, I like it: "There is no

dogma". None worth following, that's for sure.

 

It's true, the highest freedom and knowledge is to be

in the moment and experience it like a child somewhat,

with joy, an open mind, happy mood.

 

Also, I agree, that Iran and other places like that

are heavily misunderstood by Americans.

 

America has alot of good qualities born of a

charitable Christian mood and a "we're all in life

together as one" mood here, so we have it for the

world. In America, you grow up thinking you are

countryman with all races, and you deal with all

races, and there's a oneness from being country, and

that leads to a positive, progressive, free, yet

diverse, society.

 

Eugene here is a perfect example. Side by side at

restaurants you have it all, conservative redneck tree

cutters, next to them Earth First Wrenches, then

dreadlocks, then Dikes, then Cops, then old woman,

then a Family.... it's like a zoo of human

possibility here, and there's no crime, no attacks,

nothing. Everybody's cool with it all. Woman can even

go topless. It's legal.