Guest guest Posted May 28, 2002 Report Share Posted May 28, 2002 relative aum namo bhgvate vasudevays. i was very much intrested in 9th and fifth house. i anot bias at all and no judgementy. practise astrology with guidence great guru from our land that is india. my personnel belief and pracality and seen many horscope i do belive annd happeen to me 5th house id previous birth. do not take wrong iam not sididig either zoranji or natabadas ji. but zoranji has experisensed what i have experoisened. iam not poining who is right and wrong. this field of greaet research. but ia still insisit and belivr for last 50 + year experience thar 5th housr is from past life. we can qouote so many thing for our belief but belief and rxperirnce are too diffrent thing. i really admire zoranji as well as you natavar das ji. what i will say more astrology is so open and evry body get feelings or intution when they analyse chart. i feellhurt any body fellings pl for give me. this own experinced. if =you feel like wrting e mail personnsely: my e mail address : visra1024@ aol. com. i am here in state since last 35 yrs. ia m in this field of astrology 50+ yrs. astrology is my hoobby. iam a microbolologist astrology is not my earnings. just my hobby and i am kick out it. ia make 500+ charat per years for friends and donot charge them. life learning process. i try togive them guide line. mighty god i s great. any member of h list fell free write emal and i wll definetly respond as time permitts. nothing much to say. your loving brother vijay s rana usa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2002 Report Share Posted May 28, 2002 Dear Zoran you <<As you nicely explained the Dharma, "our duties and our beleif system" and Guna we brought from the previous life will determine Dharma. So it is again 9th house>> me I am not going to convince you that the 5th house represents previous life and that the 9th house represents dharma and future life. And you are not going to convince me of your beliefs. I can see that your beliefs are mixing dharma with future. Your logic follows that if the 9th house indicates dharma, and because dharma comes from the past, therefore the 9th house indicates the past. If that is your logic, then how you explain the 12th house? Every house indicates more than 100 things. The 12th house indicates among many other things, falls, losses and liberation. According to your logic, liberation would be a fall or a loss, or a fall or a loss would be a liberation. I do not have your logic because you and me have a different gunas. you <<On which bases you gave 5th house as the past. You mentioned nothing, just used it as counting point. >> me I did some reseach in my reference library and found some interesting points. The great Vedic astrologer B.V. Raman mentions in his book How to Judge a Horoscope, page 216 that the 5 th house "refers to children, emotions, and feelings, faith in God and POORVAPUNYA." As i have mentioned in my previous email to you, Purva = previous and punya = merits, therefore purvapunya can refer to the merits done in a previous life. There are several astrologers that base the 5th as the past, here i mention Raman as a base to see the past from the 5th house. you <<You admit that 5th is the "FUTURE" from above. In that case, the future (5th) from Lagna (self) would be the past life? that is absurd..you see.. >> me It may be absurd to you but not to me, here again we have the tricks of the gunas playing well. you <<Who rules the father? Dharma Pitru and Matru Sukha- or Dharma comes from e Father and Sukha from mother. 9th house is the house of father and elders, while 5th house is the house of Children. I understand that time is conceptional matter, but leave it aside at the moment. Who comes earlier, father or children? Or I will use the argument of yours, and see what I get: Lagna is the future(5th) from the past life (9th), so the Self and all about the life of the person is the future from the past life, which agrees. >> me Zoran, do not run too fast. You have said "Who comes earlier, father or children?". Well, Pandit Gopesh Kumar Ojha wrote "Hindu Predictive Astrology, and on page 105 he says "Vaidyanath includes the following under the 5th house,........FATHER (though father is primarily judged from t he 9th in South India and from the 10th in North India)" Also, from "Hindu Predictive Astrology" by Raman, page 106, he mentions that FATHER is indicated by the 5th house. However my intuition tells me to study father from the 9th house.. My answer to your question is that the father comes first than the children, but as you can see there are other great astrologers that take the 5th house for father. you <<This is not my personal concept. I have also accepted the more advenced than me who stated the 9th for the past.>> me Vedic astrology is a divine science but it belongs to the materialistic section of the Vedas (karma kandha) and therefore it is relative. Intuition plays an important role in evaluating much of its principles which are not absolute but relative. you <<I can also use your words," but your beliefs are tainted by the mode of gunas because you are conditioned by them as we all are" so that intuition is tainted with gunas, while we are dealing with Jyotish-divine shastra/ My beleif has not only worked during my Jyotish practice which is not little, but worked throughout the lives of my teacher, his teacher and parampara... Parampara of Shri Jagannath Vedic centres traices back to Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Shri Achyuta Das. So we do not rely on beleif, but on the Paramapara. But again, as I said so many times. If you are happy with your beleif, that is completely ok with me. >> me You have said ""we are dealing with Jyotish-divine shastra", yes divine science but relative. We must have a part of our gunas on the same tune to be atracted to the same science. You have said "My beleif has not only worked during my Jyotish practice which is not little, but worked throughout the lives of my teacher, his teacher and parampara". Our beliefs may become attracted to a higher thing, but that is not assurance that our intelligence is going to follow the same. The higher guna may attract our beliefs towards the highest goal, but the lowest guna may bring our intelligence down. We have see from experience that many people have follow the parampara, but their senses, mind and intelligence, later on took them away from the parampara. You have said "Parampara of Shri Jagannath Vedic centres traices back to Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Shri Achyuta Das." Parampara means disciplic succession. On behalf of newcomers in this list i do clarify that the parampara of Shri Jagannath Vedic centres can go back to Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Shri Achyuta Das. We are talking here of a great astrological school. Lord Chaitanya is an incarnation of Krishna who is considered by Vedic literature as God, the Supreme Person. Lord Chaitanya appeared on 18 february 1486 in West Bengal India, and had many followers. One of those followers was Achyutananda Das who can be traced as the founder of an astrological parampara. I have to clarify here that there are 2 kind of paramparas. We have the parampara dealing with the transcendental plane and the parampara dealing with the material plane. The first parampara deals with absolute truths, while the other parampara deals with relative truths. The transcendental parampara started with Krishna. From the Bhagavad Gita as It Is, by Srila Prabhupada, we can learn that the transcendental Parampara was somehow broken in time and by time. Therefore Krishna chose Arjuna during the battle of Kuruksetra some 5,000 years ago, to rejuvenate the transcendental parampara. There are 4 main trascendental paramparas. One starting with Brahma; the other starts with Shiva; another starts with Lakhsmi and the 4th one starts with the 4 Kumara brothers. Those 4 schools have Krishna as the source. The Vedas deal with both, transcendental knowledge and with material knowledge. Lord Chaitanya gave a priority to trascendental knowldge, and i am a member of that parampara. Although i have a lot of respects for the astrological parampara that you mention, i have to say that astrology is relative and not absolute. There are two kind of gurus or teachers, one guru deals with transcendental knowledgeand the other guru deals with relative knowledge. You are quoting the relative parampara, can you tell me which trascendental parampara are you following? you <<So we do not rely on beleif, but on the Paramapara. But again, as I said so many times. If you are happy with your beleif, that is completely ok with me. >> me It is our belief that is attracted to paramparas. Yes we can relay on the astrological parampara, but as i say in a relative knowledge there is room for a diverse choice. For example. Can you tell me what your jyotish parampara says about the days in a year. Should we take 360 days in our calculations or should we take 365.25 days? I think that here we have a good example of a relative knowledge, where you are free to follow your intuition about this. you <<I suppose you wanted to say trinal house, since angular houses are kendras>> me In my understanding, a kendra is a corner and a kona is an angule. But i could say that a kendra is an angle of 0°, 90° or 180° to the ascendant, and a kona is an angle of 0°or 120° from the ascendant. A trinal to me has a reference to three, or a traingle having 3 angles at 120° from each other. You <<This is purely irrelevenat, since each teaching(indludding yours) could be discared on that bases.>> me You have said the above after what i have said "Each author writes according to his/her own beliefs, and his/her followers will be tuned to those beliefs born out of the gunas" I do not think that it is irrelevant and that you have misjudged very fast. If you think properly you can see that you have discarded what i and other astrologers said regarding the 5th house being the house of the past, due to your gunas. The main function of the mind is acceptance and rejection. According to our gunas we accept what we think is good for us, and because of the same gunas, we reject what we think does not fit to our conception of things. Best wishes Natabara Das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2002 Report Share Posted May 28, 2002 Om Namo Narayanaya, Dear Natabara, natabara wrote: Dear Zoran you<<As you nicely explained the Dharma, "our duties and our beleif system" and Guna we brought from the previous life will determine Dharma. So it is again 9th house>>meI am not going to convince you that the 5th house represents previous life and that the 9th house represents dharma and future life. And you are not going to convince me of your beliefs. As you said it. So, I find further debate pointless. In future, we may discuss the practical examples, and prove each/other point. Best wishes Zoran -- Zoran Radosavljevic Jyotish Teacher at Shri Jagannath Vedic Centre mails: ahimsa (AT) NSpoint (DOT) net ahimsa (AT) neobee (DOT) net web address: http://www.sjvc.co.yu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2002 Report Share Posted May 28, 2002 Om Namo Narayanaya, Dear Visra, I do not intend to turn anything into a long debate, nor to make anyone change their views.This is simply my latest explanation of my beleif on the 5th/9th matters pertaining to dharma, with no (I repeat) intention to disrispect anyone's different opinion nor make argument and long debate. I feel that practical examples and explanations will suffice more for all of us and beginners as well. Here is a quote from the book Crux of Vedic Astrology of my Jyotish Guru Pt. Sanjay Rath 9 HOUSE " The ninth house looks into father (significator Sun), teacher (significator jupiter), Fortune, Religion (significator Sun), Spiritualism (signficator Ketu) and God (Significator Jupiter), Higher studies/higher knowledge, long distance travel (significator Venus), Joining or Religious order or Diksha (initiation into mantra etc, significator Jupiter), Past life and cause of rebirth (significator Saturn and Rahu respectively) etc. Dharma, in the broader sense, stands for the principles that a person adopts in his life etc..." 5th HOUSE " The fifth house is a trine and is the sign detrmining future prospects on the basis of Poorvapunya. It controls the middle age and pertains to knowledge, learning,children, love, affectgion, authority/power and bhakti... etc." It is true that the 5th house determines the future prospects on the basis of poorvapunya, which gives a bases to some to beleive that it rules the past. Yet, if we take a 9th house for the past life and significator saturn, then the 5th will indicate dharma of the past(9th from 9th), and future prospects on the basis of poorvapunya, not the past life itself. I am not trying to make my words the last. This was the last I had to say on the dabate. Anyone can make their own opinions, and verify the principle in practice, since the practice is the final test for all the theory. best wishes Om Shanti Zoran visra1024 (AT) aol (DOT) com wrote: In a message dated 5/28/02 8:51:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time, natabara (AT) ntlworld (DOT) com writes: relative aum namo bhgvate vasudevays. i was very much intrested in 9th and fifth house. i anot bias at all and no judgementy. practise astrology with guidence great guru from our land that is india. my personnel belief and pracality and seen many horscope i do belive annd happeen to me 5th house id previous birth. do not take wrong iam not sididig either zoranji or natabadas ji. but zoranji has experisensed what i have experoisened. iam not poining who is right and wrong. this field of greaet research. but ia still insisit and belivr for last 50 + year experience thar 5th housr is from past life. we can qouote so many thing for our belief but belief and rxperirnce are too diffrent thing. i really admire zoranji as well as you natavar das ji. what i will say more astrology is so open and evry body get feelings or intution when they analyse chart. i feellhurt any body fellings pl for give me. this own experinced. if =you feel like wrting e mail personnsely: my e mail address : visra1024@ aol. com. i am here in state since last 35 yrs. ia m in this field of astrology 50+ yrs. astrology is my hoobby. iam a microbolologist astrology is not my earnings. just my hobby and i am kick out it. ia make 500+ charat per years for friends and donot charge them. life learning process. i try togive them guide line. mighty god i s great. any member of h list fell free write emal and i wll definetly respond as time permitts. nothing much to say. your loving brother vijay s rana usa Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat : gjlist- Your use of is subject to the -- Zoran Radosavljevic Jyotish Teacher at Shri Jagannath Vedic Centre mails: ahimsa (AT) NSpoint (DOT) net ahimsa (AT) neobee (DOT) net web address: http://www.sjvc.co.yu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2002 Report Share Posted May 29, 2002 Dear Vijay you <<great guru from our land that is india>> me Mother India, the source and protector of the Vedas. you <<but belief and rxperirnce are too diffrent thing>> me Yes, theory and practice ahould go hand in hand. I believe that beliefs should be dynamic and not passive, fully awake instead of blind. you <<i really admire zoranji as well as you natavar das ji.>> me Thank you very much sir. I do too admire Zoran. I think that he is doing great in the middle of that land much demonized by the Western powers. you <<iam a microbolologist>> me It is great to know that a proffesional like yourself is practicing Vedic astrology. you <<ia m in this field of astrology 50+ yrs>> me Great, perhaps later on you could post some of your realizations, which i am sure could help other students. you <<mighty god i s great>> me Indeed, He is great. you <<your loving brother>> me Your loving brother. Natabara Das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2002 Report Share Posted May 29, 2002 Dear Natabra and Zoran, Sorry for butting in , The arguments of Natabra is correct , Dharma is the derived name for the 9th house, because it belongs to higher studies, Teacher etc. Otherwise 9th is 12th from the 10th and is expenditure of Karma's. A strong 9th house and week 10th house as well as Ascendant person will not do any thing ,will be born in good circumstances and will enjoy due to his past deeds. 5th is the house of Purav Puniya , 9th is the house of destiny or luck, you will spend during this birth. Suppose a person earned 1000 Rs in all his previous incarnations. 9 th house may show all the 1000 Rs then 5th will show nil results. And 9th house may show 100 Rs . and 5th may show balance of 900/- So 9th house shows your destiny in this birth and 5th shows Purav Puniya , balances , which are yet to give fruits. Sun is the significator of Purav Puniya , Jupiter is the significator of Purav Puniya as well as of destiny. This is with my inner understanding. Regards, Inder Jit Sahni. - natabara GJList Tuesday, May 28, 2002 7:42 PM [GJ] 9th house Dear Zoran you <<As you nicely explained the Dharma, "our duties and our beleif system" and Guna we brought from the previous life will determine Dharma. So it is again 9th house>> me I am not going to convince you that the 5th house represents previous life and that the 9th house represents dharma and future life. And you are not going to convince me of your beliefs. I can see that your beliefs are mixing dharma with future. Your logic follows that if the 9th house indicates dharma, and because dharma comes from the past, therefore the 9th house indicates the past. If that is your logic, then how you explain the 12th house? Every house indicates more than 100 things. The 12th house indicates among many other things, falls, losses and liberation. According to your logic, liberation would be a fall or a loss, or a fall or a loss would be a liberation. I do not have your logic because you and me have a different gunas. you <<On which bases you gave 5th house as the past. You mentioned nothing, just used it as counting point. >> me I did some reseach in my reference library and found some interesting points. The great Vedic astrologer B.V. Raman mentions in his book How to Judge a Horoscope, page 216 that the 5 th house "refers to children, emotions, and feelings, faith in God and POORVAPUNYA." As i have mentioned in my previous email to you, Purva = previous and punya = merits, therefore purvapunya can refer to the merits done in a previous life. There are several astrologers that base the 5th as the past, here i mention Raman as a base to see the past from the 5th house. you <<You admit that 5th is the "FUTURE" from above. In that case, the future (5th) from Lagna (self) would be the past life? that is absurd..you see.. >> me It may be absurd to you but not to me, here again we have the tricks of the gunas playing well. you <<Who rules the father? Dharma Pitru and Matru Sukha- or Dharma comes from e Father and Sukha from mother. 9th house is the house of father and elders, while 5th house is the house of Children. I understand that time is conceptional matter, but leave it aside at the moment. Who comes earlier, father or children? Or I will use the argument of yours, and see what I get: Lagna is the future(5th) from the past life (9th), so the Self and all about the life of the person is the future from the past life, which agrees. >> me Zoran, do not run too fast. You have said "Who comes earlier, father or children?". Well, Pandit Gopesh Kumar Ojha wrote "Hindu Predictive Astrology, and on page 105 he says "Vaidyanath includes the following under the 5th house,........FATHER (though father is primarily judged from t he 9th in South India and from the 10th in North India)" Also, from "Hindu Predictive Astrology" by Raman, page 106, he mentions that FATHER is indicated by the 5th house. However my intuition tells me to study father from the 9th house.. My answer to your question is that the father comes first than the children, but as you can see there are other great astrologers that take the 5th house for father. you <<This is not my personal concept. I have also accepted the more advenced than me who stated the 9th for the past.>> me Vedic astrology is a divine science but it belongs to the materialistic section of the Vedas (karma kandha) and therefore it is relative. Intuition plays an important role in evaluating much of its principles which are not absolute but relative. you <<I can also use your words," but your beliefs are tainted by the mode of gunas because you are conditioned by them as we all are" so that intuition is tainted with gunas, while we are dealing with Jyotish-divine shastra/ My beleif has not only worked during my Jyotish practice which is not little, but worked throughout the lives of my teacher, his teacher and parampara... Parampara of Shri Jagannath Vedic centres traices back to Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Shri Achyuta Das. So we do not rely on beleif, but on the Paramapara. But again, as I said so many times. If you are happy with your beleif, that is completely ok with me. >> me You have said ""we are dealing with Jyotish-divine shastra", yes divine science but relative. We must have a part of our gunas on the same tune to be atracted to the same science. You have said "My beleif has not only worked during my Jyotish practice which is not little, but worked throughout the lives of my teacher, his teacher and parampara". Our beliefs may become attracted to a higher thing, but that is not assurance that our intelligence is going to follow the same. The higher guna may attract our beliefs towards the highest goal, but the lowest guna may bring our intelligence down. We have see from experience that many people have follow the parampara, but their senses, mind and intelligence, later on took them away from the parampara. You have said "Parampara of Shri Jagannath Vedic centres traices back to Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Shri Achyuta Das." Parampara means disciplic succession. On behalf of newcomers in this list i do clarify that the parampara of Shri Jagannath Vedic centres can go back to Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Shri Achyuta Das. We are talking here of a great astrological school. Lord Chaitanya is an incarnation of Krishna who is considered by Vedic literature as God, the Supreme Person. Lord Chaitanya appeared on 18 february 1486 in West Bengal India, and had many followers. One of those followers was Achyutananda Das who can be traced as the founder of an astrological parampara. I have to clarify here that there are 2 kind of paramparas. We have the parampara dealing with the transcendental plane and the parampara dealing with the material plane. The first parampara deals with absolute truths, while the other parampara deals with relative truths. The transcendental parampara started with Krishna. From the Bhagavad Gita as It Is, by Srila Prabhupada, we can learn that the transcendental Parampara was somehow broken in time and by time. Therefore Krishna chose Arjuna during the battle of Kuruksetra some 5,000 years ago, to rejuvenate the transcendental parampara. There are 4 main trascendental paramparas. One starting with Brahma; the other starts with Shiva; another starts with Lakhsmi and the 4th one starts with the 4 Kumara brothers. Those 4 schools have Krishna as the source. The Vedas deal with both, transcendental knowledge and with material knowledge. Lord Chaitanya gave a priority to trascendental knowldge, and i am a member of that parampara. Although i have a lot of respects for the astrological parampara that you mention, i have to say that astrology is relative and not absolute. There are two kind of gurus or teachers, one guru deals with transcendental knowledgeand the other guru deals with relative knowledge. You are quoting the relative parampara, can you tell me which trascendental parampara are you following? you <<So we do not rely on beleif, but on the Paramapara. But again, as I said so many times. If you are happy with your beleif, that is completely ok with me. >> me It is our belief that is attracted to paramparas. Yes we can relay on the astrological parampara, but as i say in a relative knowledge there is room for a diverse choice. For example. Can you tell me what your jyotish parampara says about the days in a year. Should we take 360 days in our calculations or should we take 365.25 days? I think that here we have a good example of a relative knowledge, where you are free to follow your intuition about this. you <<I suppose you wanted to say trinal house, since angular houses are kendras>> me In my understanding, a kendra is a corner and a kona is an angule. But i could say that a kendra is an angle of 0°, 90° or 180° to the ascendant, and a kona is an angle of 0°or 120° from the ascendant. A trinal to me has a reference to three, or a traingle having 3 angles at 120° from each other. You <<This is purely irrelevenat, since each teaching(indludding yours) could be discared on that bases.>> me You have said the above after what i have said "Each author writes according to his/her own beliefs, and his/her followers will be tuned to those beliefs born out of the gunas" I do not think that it is irrelevant and that you have misjudged very fast. If you think properly you can see that you have discarded what i and other astrologers said regarding the 5th house being the house of the past, due to your gunas. The main function of the mind is acceptance and rejection. According to our gunas we accept what we think is good for us, and because of the same gunas, we reject what we think does not fit to our conception of things. Best wishes Natabara Das Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat SatTo , send an email to: gjlist-http://www.goravani.comYour use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2002 Report Share Posted May 29, 2002 Dear brother Inderjit ji You have explained this very well. 5th House shows Purva Punya, Can we say that 5th House also shows the sum total of impressions of the past lives, such as, Sanskaras too. Love Ravinder GRover - Inder Jit Sahni gjlist Wednesday, May 29, 2002 7:56 PM Re: [GJ] 9th house Dear Natabra and Zoran, Sorry for butting in , The arguments of Natabra is correct , Dharma is the derived name for the 9th house, because it belongs to higher studies, Teacher etc. Otherwise 9th is 12th from the 10th and is expenditure of Karma's. A strong 9th house and week 10th house as well as Ascendant person will not do any thing ,will be born in good circumstances and will enjoy due to his past deeds. 5th is the house of Purav Puniya , 9th is the house of destiny or luck, you will spend during this birth. Suppose a person earned 1000 Rs in all his previous incarnations. 9 th house may show all the 1000 Rs then 5th will show nil results. And 9th house may show 100 Rs . and 5th may show balance of 900/- So 9th house shows your destiny in this birth and 5th shows Purav Puniya , balances , which are yet to give fruits. Sun is the significator of Purav Puniya , Jupiter is the significator of Purav Puniya as well as of destiny. This is with my inner understanding. Regards, Inder Jit Sahni. - natabara GJList Tuesday, May 28, 2002 7:42 PM [GJ] 9th house Dear Zoran you <<As you nicely explained the Dharma, "our duties and our beleif system" and Guna we brought from the previous life will determine Dharma. So it is again 9th house>> me I am not going to convince you that the 5th house represents previous life and that the 9th house represents dharma and future life. And you are not going to convince me of your beliefs. I can see that your beliefs are mixing dharma with future. Your logic follows that if the 9th house indicates dharma, and because dharma comes from the past, therefore the 9th house indicates the past. If that is your logic, then how you explain the 12th house? Every house indicates more than 100 things. The 12th house indicates among many other things, falls, losses and liberation. According to your logic, liberation would be a fall or a loss, or a fall or a loss would be a liberation. I do not have your logic because you and me have a different gunas. you <<On which bases you gave 5th house as the past. You mentioned nothing, just used it as counting point. >> me I did some reseach in my reference library and found some interesting points. The great Vedic astrologer B.V. Raman mentions in his book How to Judge a Horoscope, page 216 that the 5 th house "refers to children, emotions, and feelings, faith in God and POORVAPUNYA." As i have mentioned in my previous email to you, Purva = previous and punya = merits, therefore purvapunya can refer to the merits done in a previous life. There are several astrologers that base the 5th as the past, here i mention Raman as a base to see the past from the 5th house. you <<You admit that 5th is the "FUTURE" from above. In that case, the future (5th) from Lagna (self) would be the past life? that is absurd..you see.. >> me It may be absurd to you but not to me, here again we have the tricks of the gunas playing well. you <<Who rules the father? Dharma Pitru and Matru Sukha- or Dharma comes from e Father and Sukha from mother. 9th house is the house of father and elders, while 5th house is the house of Children. I understand that time is conceptional matter, but leave it aside at the moment. Who comes earlier, father or children? Or I will use the argument of yours, and see what I get: Lagna is the future(5th) from the past life (9th), so the Self and all about the life of the person is the future from the past life, which agrees. >> me Zoran, do not run too fast. You have said "Who comes earlier, father or children?". Well, Pandit Gopesh Kumar Ojha wrote "Hindu Predictive Astrology, and on page 105 he says "Vaidyanath includes the following under the 5th house,........FATHER (though father is primarily judged from t he 9th in South India and from the 10th in North India)" Also, from "Hindu Predictive Astrology" by Raman, page 106, he mentions that FATHER is indicated by the 5th house. However my intuition tells me to study father from the 9th house.. My answer to your question is that the father comes first than the children, but as you can see there are other great astrologers that take the 5th house for father. you <<This is not my personal concept. I have also accepted the more advenced than me who stated the 9th for the past.>> me Vedic astrology is a divine science but it belongs to the materialistic section of the Vedas (karma kandha) and therefore it is relative. Intuition plays an important role in evaluating much of its principles which are not absolute but relative. you <<I can also use your words," but your beliefs are tainted by the mode of gunas because you are conditioned by them as we all are" so that intuition is tainted with gunas, while we are dealing with Jyotish-divine shastra/ My beleif has not only worked during my Jyotish practice which is not little, but worked throughout the lives of my teacher, his teacher and parampara... Parampara of Shri Jagannath Vedic centres traices back to Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Shri Achyuta Das. So we do not rely on beleif, but on the Paramapara. But again, as I said so many times. If you are happy with your beleif, that is completely ok with me. >> me You have said ""we are dealing with Jyotish-divine shastra", yes divine science but relative. We must have a part of our gunas on the same tune to be atracted to the same science. You have said "My beleif has not only worked during my Jyotish practice which is not little, but worked throughout the lives of my teacher, his teacher and parampara". Our beliefs may become attracted to a higher thing, but that is not assurance that our intelligence is going to follow the same. The higher guna may attract our beliefs towards the highest goal, but the lowest guna may bring our intelligence down. We have see from experience that many people have follow the parampara, but their senses, mind and intelligence, later on took them away from the parampara. You have said "Parampara of Shri Jagannath Vedic centres traices back to Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Shri Achyuta Das." Parampara means disciplic succession. On behalf of newcomers in this list i do clarify that the parampara of Shri Jagannath Vedic centres can go back to Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Shri Achyuta Das. We are talking here of a great astrological school. Lord Chaitanya is an incarnation of Krishna who is considered by Vedic literature as God, the Supreme Person. Lord Chaitanya appeared on 18 february 1486 in West Bengal India, and had many followers. One of those followers was Achyutananda Das who can be traced as the founder of an astrological parampara. I have to clarify here that there are 2 kind of paramparas. We have the parampara dealing with the transcendental plane and the parampara dealing with the material plane. The first parampara deals with absolute truths, while the other parampara deals with relative truths. The transcendental parampara started with Krishna. From the Bhagavad Gita as It Is, by Srila Prabhupada, we can learn that the transcendental Parampara was somehow broken in time and by time. Therefore Krishna chose Arjuna during the battle of Kuruksetra some 5,000 years ago, to rejuvenate the transcendental parampara. There are 4 main trascendental paramparas. One starting with Brahma; the other starts with Shiva; another starts with Lakhsmi and the 4th one starts with the 4 Kumara brothers. Those 4 schools have Krishna as the source. The Vedas deal with both, transcendental knowledge and with material knowledge. Lord Chaitanya gave a priority to trascendental knowldge, and i am a member of that parampara. Although i have a lot of respects for the astrological parampara that you mention, i have to say that astrology is relative and not absolute. There are two kind of gurus or teachers, one guru deals with transcendental knowledgeand the other guru deals with relative knowledge. You are quoting the relative parampara, can you tell me which trascendental parampara are you following? you <<So we do not rely on beleif, but on the Paramapara. But again, as I said so many times. If you are happy with your beleif, that is completely ok with me. >> me It is our belief that is attracted to paramparas. Yes we can relay on the astrological parampara, but as i say in a relative knowledge there is room for a diverse choice. For example. Can you tell me what your jyotish parampara says about the days in a year. Should we take 360 days in our calculations or should we take 365.25 days? I think that here we have a good example of a relative knowledge, where you are free to follow your intuition about this. you <<I suppose you wanted to say trinal house, since angular houses are kendras>> me In my understanding, a kendra is a corner and a kona is an angule. But i could say that a kendra is an angle of 0°, 90° or 180° to the ascendant, and a kona is an angle of 0°or 120° from the ascendant. A trinal to me has a reference to three, or a traingle having 3 angles at 120° from each other. You <<This is purely irrelevenat, since each teaching(indludding yours) could be discared on that bases.>> me You have said the above after what i have said "Each author writes according to his/her own beliefs, and his/her followers will be tuned to those beliefs born out of the gunas" I do not think that it is irrelevant and that you have misjudged very fast. If you think properly you can see that you have discarded what i and other astrologers said regarding the 5th house being the house of the past, due to your gunas. The main function of the mind is acceptance and rejection. According to our gunas we accept what we think is good for us, and because of the same gunas, we reject what we think does not fit to our conception of things. Best wishes Natabara Das Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat SatTo , send an email to: gjlist-http://www.goravani.comYour use of is subject to the Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat: gjlist-http://www.goravani.comYour use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2002 Report Share Posted May 29, 2002 Om Namo Narayanaya, Dear Inder, I made writting mistake when I said that 5th doesn't stand for poorva punya, identifying poorvapunya with previous life. So the point is that previous life is not seen in the 5th, while poorva punya is, which I corrected myself in the latest mail. Best wishes Zoran Inder Jit Sahni wrote: Dear Natabra and Zoran,Sorry for butting in ,The arguments of Natabra is correct , Dharma is the derived name for the 9th house, because it belongs to higher studies, Teacher etc.Otherwise 9th is 12th from the 10th and is expenditure of Karma's. A strong 9th house and week 10th house as well as Ascendant person will not do any thing ,will be born in good circumstances and will enjoy due to his past deeds.5th is the house of Purav Puniya , 9th is the house of destiny or luck, you will spend during this birth. Suppose a person earned 1000 Rs in all his previous incarnations. 9 th house may show all the 1000 Rs then 5th will show nil results. And 9th house may show 100 Rs . and 5th may show balance of 900/- So 9th house shows your destiny in this birth and 5th shows Purav Puniya , balances , which are yet to give fruits. Sun is the significator of Purav Puniya , Jupiter is the significator of Purav Puniya as well as of destiny.This is with my inner understanding.Regards,Inder Jit Sahni. - natabara GJList Tuesday, May 28, 2002 7:42 PM [GJ] 9th house Dear Zoran you<<As you nicely explained the Dharma, "our duties and our beleif system" and Guna we brought from the previous life will determine Dharma. So it is again 9th house>>meI am not going to convince you that the 5th house represents previous life and that the 9th house represents dharma and future life. And you are not going to convince me of your beliefs. I can see that your beliefs are mixing dharma with future. Your logic follows that if the 9th house indicates dharma, and because dharma comes from the past, therefore the 9th house indicates the past. If that is your logic, then how you explain the 12th house? Every house indicates more than 100 things. The 12th house indicates among many other things, falls, losses and liberation. According to your logic, liberation would be a fall or a loss, or a fall or a loss would be a liberation. I do not have your logic because you and me have a different gunas. you<<On which bases you gave 5th house as the past. You mentioned nothing, just used it as counting point. >> meI did some reseach in my reference library and found some interesting points. The great Vedic astrologer B.V. Raman mentions in his book How to Judge a Horoscope, page 216 that the 5 th house "refers to children, emotions, and feelings, faith in God and POORVAPUNYA." As i have mentioned in my previous email to you, Purva = previous and punya = merits, therefore purvapunya can refer to the merits done in a previous life. There are several astrologers that base the 5th as the past, here i mention Raman as a base to see the past from the 5th house. you<<You admit that 5th is the "FUTURE" from above. In that case, the future (5th) from Lagna (self) would be the past life? that is absurd..you see.. >> meIt may be absurd to you but not to me, here again we have the tricks of the gunas playing well.you<<Who rules the father? Dharma Pitru and Matru Sukha- or Dharma comes from e Father and Sukha from mother. 9th house is the house of father and elders, while 5th house is the house of Children. I understand that time is conceptional matter, but leave it aside at the moment. Who comes earlier, father or children? Or I will use the argument of yours, and see what I get: Lagna is the future(5th) from the past life (9th), so the Self and all about the life of the person is the future from the past life, which agrees. >> meZoran, do not run too fast. You have said "Who comes earlier, father or children?". Well, Pandit Gopesh Kumar Ojha wrote "Hindu Predictive Astrology, and on page 105 he says "Vaidyanath includes the following under the 5th house,........FATHER (though father is primarily judged from t he 9th in South India and from the 10th in North India)"Also, from "Hindu Predictive Astrology" by Raman, page 106, he mentions that FATHER is indicated by the 5th house. However my intuition tells me to study father from the 9th house.. My answer to your question is that the father comes first than the children, but as you can see there are other great astrologers that take the 5th house for father. you <<This is not my personal concept. I have also accepted the more advenced than me who stated the 9th for the past.>> me Vedic astrology is a divine science but it belongs to the materialistic section of the Vedas (karma kandha) and therefore it is relative. Intuition plays an important role in evaluating much of its principles which are not absolute but relative. you <<I can also use your words," but your beliefs are tainted by the mode of gunas because you are conditioned by them as we all are" so that intuition is tainted with gunas, while we are dealing with Jyotish-divine shastra/ My beleif has not only worked during my Jyotish practice which is not little, but worked throughout the lives of my teacher, his teacher and parampara... Parampara of Shri Jagannath Vedic centres traices back to Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Shri Achyuta Das. So we do not rely on beleif, but on the Paramapara. But again, as I said so many times. If you are happy with your beleif, that is completely ok with me. >> me You have said ""we are dealing with Jyotish-divine shastra", yes divine science but relative. We must have a part of our gunas on the same tune to be atracted to the same science. You have said "My beleif has not only worked during my Jyotish practice which is not little, but worked throughout the lives of my teacher, his teacher and parampara". Our beliefs may become attracted to a higher thing, but that is not assurance that our intelligence is going to follow the same. The higher guna may attract our beliefs towards the highest goal, but the lowest guna may bring our intelligence down. We have see from experience that many people have follow the parampara, but their senses, mind and intelligence, later on took them away from the parampara. You have said "Parampara of Shri Jagannath Vedic centres traices back to Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Shri Achyuta Das." Parampara means disciplic succession. On behalf of newcomers in this list i do clarify that the parampara of Shri Jagannath Vedic centres can go back to Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and Shri Achyuta Das. We are talking here of a great astrological school. Lord Chaitanya is an incarnation of Krishna who is considered by Vedic literature as God, the Supreme Person. Lord Chaitanya appeared on 18 february 1486 in West Bengal India, and had many followers. One of those followers was Achyutananda Das who can be traced as the founder of an astrological parampara. I have to clarify herethat there are 2 kind of paramparas. We have the parampara dealing with the transcendental plane and the parampara dealing with the material plane. The first parampara deals with absolute truths, while the other parampara deals with relative truths. The transcendental parampara started with Krishna. From the Bhagavad Gita as It Is, by Srila Prabhupada, we can learn that the transcendental Parampara was somehow broken in time and by time. Therefore Krishna chose Arjuna during the battle of Kuruksetra some 5,000 years ago, to rejuvenate the transcendental parampara. There are 4 main trascendental paramparas. One starting with Brahma; the other starts with Shiva; another starts with Lakhsmi and the 4th one starts with the 4 Kumara brothers. Those 4 schools have Krishna as the source. The Vedas deal with both, transcendental knowledge and with material knowledge. Lord Chaitanya gave a priority to trascendental knowldge, and i am a member of that parampara. Although i have a lot of respects for the astrological parampara that you mention, i have to say that astrology is relative and not absolute. There are two kind of gurus or teachers, one guru deals with transcendental knowledgeand the other guru deals with relative knowledge. You are quoting the relative parampara, can you tell me which trascendental parampara are you following? you <<So we do not rely on beleif, but on the Paramapara. But again, as I said so many times. If you are happy with your beleif, that is completely ok with me. >> me It is our belief that is attracted to paramparas. Yes we can relay on the astrological parampara, but as i say in a relative knowledge there is room for a diverse choice. For example. Can you tell me what your jyotish parampara says about the days in a year. Should we take 360 days in our calculations or should we take 365.25 days? I think that here we have a good example of a relative knowledge, where you are free to follow your intuition about this. you <<I suppose you wanted to say trinal house, since angular houses are kendras>> me In my understanding, a kendra is a corner and a kona is an angule. But i could say that a kendra is an angle of 0°, 90° or 180° to the ascendant, and a kona is an angle of 0°or 120° from the ascendant. A trinal to me has a reference to three, or a traingle having 3 angles at 120° from each other. You <<This is purely irrelevenat, since each teaching(indludding yours) could be discared on that bases.>> me You have said the above after what i have said "Each author writes according to his/her own beliefs, and his/her followers will be tuned to those beliefs born out of the gunas" I do not think that it is irrelevant and that you have misjudged very fast. If you think properly you can see that you have discarded what i and other astrologers said regarding the 5th house being the house of the past, due to your gunas. The main function of the mind is acceptance and rejection. According to our gunas we accept what we think is good for us, and because of the same gunas, we reject what we think does not fit to our conception of things. Best wishes Natabara Das Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat : gjlist- Terms of Service. Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat : gjlist- Terms of Service. -- Zoran Radosavljevic Jyotish Teacher at Shri Jagannath Vedic Centre mails: ahimsa (AT) NSpoint (DOT) net ahimsa (AT) neobee (DOT) net web address: http://www.sjvc.co.yu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2002 Report Share Posted May 29, 2002 Hello Zoran, Having been absent for a few days, I am perhaps asking some questions a little late in this thread. I can see that there has been a lot of discussion on this thread without clear resolution (at least that is the appearance to learners like me, I cant speak for the learned). So let me ask some questions which I hope can lead to resolution for us (the learners). 1) You have said that 9th house indicates "Fortune,...Past life and cause of rebirth". You have also said 5th house indicates "future prospects on the basis of Poorvapunya". What confuses me is: (i) If Past Life were full of good karma, then isnt it logical to assume that future prospects would also be good? (ii) If Past Life doesnt contain good karma, then isnt it equally logical to assume that future prospects wouldnt be as good? So it looks to me like future prospects should be exactly commensurate with past karma. Based on that reasoning, it seems logical to me that only 1 indicator would be sufficient to quantify both quantities. Why, then, are there 2 houses needed for essentially the same quantity? So it would really help this discussion if you could perhaps answer: When would you expect indicators for future prospects and past life to have different or even contradictory strengths? 2) If you can establish the above i.e. give situations, or examples of life experiences, that would lead to indicators for past life and future prospects being contradictory, then we are well on our way to testing the hypothesis (at least to me it is currently only a hypothesis that 5th house is future prospects and 9th house is past life and fortune). We then only need find some well known (famous or infamous) person in whose chart we would expect to find these contradictory indications and simply chart them out to see if the indications map onto the 5th and 9th or to the 9th and 5th. Whichever way they map on, that would be the "truth". Do you disagree to using this mechanism to verify the hypothesis? Or do you feel that it is still flawed in some way? VAS > > 9 HOUSE > " The ninth house looks into father (significator Sun), teacher > (significator jupiter), Fortune, Religion (significator Sun), > Spiritualism (signficator Ketu) and God (Significator Jupiter), Higher > studies/higher knowledge, long distance travel (significator Venus), > Joining or Religious order or Diksha (initiation into mantra etc, > significator Jupiter), Past life and cause of rebirth (significator > Saturn and Rahu respectively) etc. Dharma, in the broader sense, stands > for the principles that a person adopts in his life etc..." > 5th HOUSE > " The fifth house is a trine and is the sign detrmining future prospects > on the basis of Poorvapunya. It controls the middle age and pertains to > knowledge, learning,children, love, affectgion, authority/power and > bhakti... etc." > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 Dear Zoran you <<I find further debate pointless>> me I do think so. Every author gives his own realisations and his/her followers will take what they can understand, accept or reject according to their own experience or karma. i do not like to debate on relative truths like the indications for father taken from either the 5th, 9th or 10th house. Each astrologer is free to follow the guidelines, which better fit their own gunas. Nevertheless, i have to accept that there are some points in astrology, which are just a waste of time. I may say so from time to time for some points, but people are free to waste their time if they so want, in pursuing a ghostly ephemeral ideal. However, i like to clarify from time to time important issues that need to be clarified. For example, i did browse some time ago a book on Vedic astrology, in which the author wrote that the South Indian style to represent a Vedic horoscope is superior to all the others. I do disagree with his belief, because to me the style to represent a Vedic chart should fit best the reading of the astrologer. Although i do prefer to follow the North Indian style to read Vedic charts, i do not say that such a style is superior. It is a matter of preference. In fact, i do have many friends following the south Indian style and i do adapt myself to read those charts. Like in every path, we should learn to use our intuition and follow what we feel is best. However, what is best for me, it may not be better for others. Mother nature is very wise. She did give us the needed gunas to achieve our determined goal. Therefore, we do get what we need to be learned. For example, a musician is very sensitive in nature, he/she grasps the need of the environment and creates a song to satisfy and elevate the consciousness. That musician may be under the spell of the mode of satva, raja or tamas, but his/her creation is aimed specifically to any of those gunas. If his creation is satvic, those in tamas may not like it and reject it. And if his creation is tamasic, those in satva will not like it. However, from the absolute point of view, every single creation can be seen helpful to elevate every soul on this mortal plane, to a higher consciousness. Difficult to explain this, but on a mundane level we can see the example, that a musician may write a song talking about the love for a girl. That song may sounds mundane, but from the absolute realm, that musician really wrote about the love for God. The gunas of the musician may be captivated by the modes of nature, but higher authorities have given him the necessary inspiration to write a song that is going to help many people. Then again, that particular musician must have the planetary combinations to be chosen for that role. You have quoted from Sanjay's book. <<"Yet, if we take a 9th house for the past life and significator saturn, then the 5th will indicate dharma of the past(9th from 9th), and future prospects on the basis of poorvapunya, not the past life itself. ">> me Without disrespect, i do not agree with that. I do understand that purvapunya (previous merits done in a previous life or the past life), is related to dharma. Dharma is our duty towards God, therefore, dharma has some guidelines to follow to serve God. Good merits = the following of our dharma. Bad merits = not following our dharma. Therefore, according to our good or bad purvapunya done in a previous life (the past) we get a body in the future (our present). We can not say that a purvapunya done in the future will decide our present body, because we have not have the facilities yet to do our merits. It is like saying, pay now (get a body) and you will get the goods (purvapunya) in the future. If we do take the 9th house as the future, then the 5th house counting from the 9th, will be the 9th from the 9th house. Or in other words, the 5th house (purvapunya) will be the future and dharma from our future. In the Vedas we follow a cycle in eternity, where our intentions do not change so much. Therefore our past purvapunya will have the seeds for the purvapunya of our future. We can say that our present purvapunya (merits done in the past) have decided our present body. Our present punya, will decide our future body. And our uttarapunya (future merits), will decide our future future body. We can see the example of 6 naksatras or constellations. Purva Phalguni and Uttara Phalguni, or the previous and the next Phalguni. Purva Ashada and Uttara Ashada, Purva Bhadrapada and Uttara Bhadrapada. But then again it is a relative matter of understanding things. you <<In future, we may discuss the practical examples, and prove each/other point. >> me Although it is a good idea to discuss practical examples, i do not think that we are going to be able to prove each/other point. A single example is not sufficient to prove our point because a single example cannot cover all the rules and there always will be some exemptions or puzzles. That is way the work of Gauquelin is very useful, because he had tried to prove a point with thousands of charts. However, he was only a pioneer, he only started a path, others in the future will take his line of thought further ahead. It will be nice to have a proper research in Vedic astrology taking some 25,000 charts for study. But i will not see that in my lifetime, future astrologers will do that in time. We can see how a line of thought is followed, expanded and explained in every branch of thought. We can follow a line of thought from Galileo, Newton, to Einstein. And another line of thought from Lord Brahma, Arjuna and lord Chaitanya. Best wishes Natabara Das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 Vyam Vysadevaya Namah ---------------------------- Dear Natabara, Zoran and Inder, The Asraya Concept is a vital point in this discussion, where the 5th from any bhava shows its future. I.e. disease comes in the 8th house, and the result of such disease will be saught in the 12th house, being the 5th from it. i.e. Hospitalisation and recovery is seen from the 12th. So why does disease happen? 9th from 8th is the 4th house..Unhappiness, sorrow.. these are the causes, so be happy and you will be healthy :-) Similarly there must be a father before there can be a child, and thats why the future of the 9th house is the Lagna. But even the 9th house has a past, and hence we look to the 9th from it, as the 9th from every house is its protector and guide. The Raja Yogas formed between Pitri Bhava(9th) and another bhava results in fortune from elders.. again ones past, where ones elders, guides or leaders gives uplifts ones life. Similarly 5th shows ones followers, the crowd and children, who uplift one.. making oneself the leader. As for Natabaras points on Poorva Punya; Our past determines our present and our present determines our future. Following the Asraya Concept, which is vital in Jyotish, Past is the 9th, the present is the lagna and the 5th is the future. Phala Deepika states the same. So if someone says that Poorva Punya is seen in the 5th, i will agree. Because Poorva Punya is the results of ones past actions.. Not the past actions themselves. Hope this helps. Best wishes, Visti. - natabara GJList Thursday, May 30, 2002 1:18 PM Re: [GJ] 9th house Dear Zoran you <<I find further debate pointless>> me I do think so. Every author gives his own realisations and his/her followers will take what they can understand, accept or reject according to their own experience or karma. i do not like to debate on relative truths like the indications for father taken from either the 5th, 9th or 10th house. Each astrologer is free to follow the guidelines, which better fit their own gunas. Nevertheless, i have to accept that there are some points in astrology, which are just a waste of time. I may say so from time to time for some points, but people are free to waste their time if they so want, in pursuing a ghostly ephemeral ideal. However, i like to clarify from time to time important issues that need to be clarified. For example, i did browse some time ago a book on Vedic astrology, in which the author wrote that the South Indian style to represent a Vedic horoscope is superior to all the others. I do disagree with his belief, because to me the style to represent a Vedic chart should fit best the reading of the astrologer. Although i do prefer to follow the North Indian style to read Vedic charts, i do not say that such a style is superior. It is a matter of preference. In fact, i do have many friends following the south Indian style and i do adapt myself to read those charts. Like in every path, we should learn to use our intuition and follow what we feel is best. However, what is best for me, it may not be better for others. Mother nature is very wise. She did give us the needed gunas to achieve our determined goal. Therefore, we do get what we need to be learned. For example, a musician is very sensitive in nature, he/she grasps the need of the environment and creates a song to satisfy and elevate the consciousness. That musician may be under the spell of the mode of satva, raja or tamas, but his/her creation is aimed specifically to any of those gunas. If his creation is satvic, those in tamas may not like it and reject it. And if his creation is tamasic, those in satva will not like it. However, from the absolute point of view, every single creation can be seen helpful to elevate every soul on this mortal plane, to a higher consciousness. Difficult to explain this, but on a mundane level we can see the example, that a musician may write a song talking about the love for a girl. That song may sounds mundane, but from the absolute realm, that musician really wrote about the love for God. The gunas of the musician may be captivated by the modes of nature, but higher authorities have given him the necessary inspiration to write a song that is going to help many people. Then again, that particular musician must have the planetary combinations to be chosen for that role. You have quoted from Sanjay's book. <<"Yet, if we take a 9th house for the past life and significator saturn, then the 5th will indicate dharma of the past(9th from 9th), and future prospects on the basis of poorvapunya, not the past life itself. ">> me Without disrespect, i do not agree with that. I do understand that purvapunya (previous merits done in a previous life or the past life), is related to dharma. Dharma is our duty towards God, therefore, dharma has some guidelines to follow to serve God. Good merits = the following of our dharma. Bad merits = not following our dharma. Therefore, according to our good or bad purvapunya done in a previous life (the past) we get a body in the future (our present). We can not say that a purvapunya done in the future will decide our present body, because we have not have the facilities yet to do our merits. It is like saying, pay now (get a body) and you will get the goods (purvapunya) in the future. If we do take the 9th house as the future, then the 5th house counting from the 9th, will be the 9th from the 9th house. Or in other words, the 5th house (purvapunya) will be the future and dharma from our future. In the Vedas we follow a cycle in eternity, where our intentions do not change so much. Therefore our past purvapunya will have the seeds for the purvapunya of our future. We can say that our present purvapunya (merits done in the past) have decided our present body. Our present punya, will decide our future body. And our uttarapunya (future merits), will decide our future future body. We can see the example of 6 naksatras or constellations. Purva Phalguni and Uttara Phalguni, or the previous and the next Phalguni. Purva Ashada and Uttara Ashada, Purva Bhadrapada and Uttara Bhadrapada. But then again it is a relative matter of understanding things. you <<In future, we may discuss the practical examples, and prove each/other point. >> me Although it is a good idea to discuss practical examples, i do not think that we are going to be able to prove each/other point. A single example is not sufficient to prove our point because a single example cannot cover all the rules and there always will be some exemptions or puzzles. That is way the work of Gauquelin is very useful, because he had tried to prove a point with thousands of charts. However, he was only a pioneer, he only started a path, others in the future will take his line of thought further ahead. It will be nice to have a proper research in Vedic astrology taking some 25,000 charts for study. But i will not see that in my lifetime, future astrologers will do that in time. We can see how a line of thought is followed, expanded and explained in every branch of thought. We can follow a line of thought from Galileo, Newton, to Einstein. And another line of thought from Lord Brahma, Arjuna and lord Chaitanya. Best wishes Natabara Das Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat SatTo , send an email to: gjlist-http://www.goravani.comYour use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 Dear Visti Thank you very much for adding your valuable point of view to this debate. you <<The Asraya Concept is a vital point in this discussion, where the 5th from any bhava shows its future.>> me I do not know about the Asraya concept. Once i get the facilities to study that concept i will do so, it sounds very interesting and worth to study. Could you please tell me which book i can read about it? Thanks. I do have a friend called Asraya but i do not think that he can tell us the future because he is not an astrologer. you <<I.e. disease comes in the 8th house, and the result of such disease will be sought in the 12th house, being the 5th from it. i.e. Hospitalisation and recovery is seen from the 12th.>> me For what i do understand the 5th house counting from a house will show the results of the source house. I want here to clarify that when counting distances in a Vedic horoscope, the count should start from the source house. This information is for newcomers because i have seen their confusion before. To a Western mentality, in general, we are told to count distances starting with the next house or the next year. And therefore, we become conditioned to count in that way. For example, when counting a birthday, we may say it is my 53rd birthday, but in the Indian way, we will say, it is the 54th birthday because the 1st birthday is the birthday itself, and not the next one. When counting houses, we do start from the source house. In your example, we count the 8th house as the source or house 1, then we will have houses 9th, 10th,11th and 12th. How many houses did we count? = 5. you <<So why does disease happen? 9th from 8th is the 4th house..Unhappiness, sorrow.. these are the causes, so be happy and you will be healthy :-)>> me So, you say that the 5th house from any house will show the result or future to the source house and the 9th house from the source house will show the why. Therefore here we have the future and the why. you <<Similarly there must be a father before there can be a child, and thats why the future of the 9th house is the Lagna. But even the 9th house has a past, and hence we look to the 9th from it, as the 9th from every house is its protector and guide.>> me I can follow your logic, although i can argue that the result or future of the father is his child, it can be as well his past. If we believe in reincarnation, we can say that the child, although being the result or future of the father, is as well the past to the father. Because that child was the father of the father previously. (Or grand father, or great grandfather if the father is still alive. But we are told that in the process of reincarnation this may not necessarily be the point, because when we die, our next father may be a dog and not a human. The human form is rarely achieved, and it is due to our past purvapunya that our next body is decided. you <<So if someone says that Poorva Punya is seen in the 5th, i will agree. Because Poorva Punya is the results of ones past actions.. Not the past actions themselves.>> me Very subtle to the understanding but to my understanding purvapunya or the previous merits, although the results from our deeds are not separated from the subject that is the source of those deeds. We cannot separate the heat from the fire as we cannot separate the purvapunya from our past deeds. Something else that i want to clarify is this: you <<so be happy and you will be healthy :-)>> me I have heard a similar saying "be optimistic and you will be happy, be happy and you will be happy". However, i have seen that this attitude does not work. For example, i have a couple of friends that were living together. They used to quarrel in a very nasty way. However, after each quarrel they used to say "Be happy and you will be happy". In other words, they were just kidding themselves. After having had some 10 black eyes each due to their quarrels, they both decided to separate. Obviously, when the chemistry does not work out, the false pretendance of being happy will not work out. And sooner or later separation will occur. So far, under this last Moon eclipse in Scorpio, i have heard of 3 couples separating on the same day of the eclipse. One of the couples has since reunited, but i ask myself, for how long? Karmically, 2 couples have ended their karmic payment to each other, while the other couple still want to pay the interests left to be paid. In time, and due to their lucky stars all of them may find their right partner and live forever happy. Because this materialistic society is imperfect, schools do not teach how to be a nice couple or good parents. Therefore, the pupils "think" that the right thing to do is to get married, but they both do not have the foggiest idea of how to manage a partnership. Many couples at least in the Western countries have a wrong idea of what a marriage should be, and in consequence we at present have a very high rate of divorces. Karmically, both in the couple have to come to finish in this life, a debt from a previous life. The horoscopes will help to see the trends. Meaning that astrologers are going to get busier. Best wishes Natabara Das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 Vyam Vysadevaya Namah ----------------------- Dear Natabara, I was taught the Asraya Concept by Sanjay Rath. Where he gets it i do not know, but it makes perfect sense. The 9th from the house, shows the past events happening that lead to the good/bad of the source house. I'm not sure how your example of the two couples has anything todo with "A smile a day keeps the sickness away" concept? Best wishes, Visti. - natabara GJList Friday, May 31, 2002 1:17 PM Re: [GJ] 9th house Dear Visti Thank you very much for adding your valuable point of view to this debate. you <<The Asraya Concept is a vital point in this discussion, where the 5th from any bhava shows its future.>> me I do not know about the Asraya concept. Once i get the facilities to study that concept i will do so, it sounds very interesting and worth to study. Could you please tell me which book i can read about it? Thanks. I do have a friend called Asraya but i do not think that he can tell us the future because he is not an astrologer. you <<I.e. disease comes in the 8th house, and the result of such disease will be sought in the 12th house, being the 5th from it. i.e. Hospitalisation and recovery is seen from the 12th.>> me For what i do understand the 5th house counting from a house will show the results of the source house. I want here to clarify that when counting distances in a Vedic horoscope, the count should start from the source house. This information is for newcomers because i have seen their confusion before. To a Western mentality, in general, we are told to count distances starting with the next house or the next year. And therefore, we become conditioned to count in that way. For example, when counting a birthday, we may say it is my 53rd birthday, but in the Indian way, we will say, it is the 54th birthday because the 1st birthday is the birthday itself, and not the next one. When counting houses, we do start from the source house. In your example, we count the 8th house as the source or house 1, then we will have houses 9th, 10th,11th and 12th. How many houses did we count? = 5. you <<So why does disease happen? 9th from 8th is the 4th house..Unhappiness, sorrow.. these are the causes, so be happy and you will be healthy :-)>> me So, you say that the 5th house from any house will show the result or future to the source house and the 9th house from the source house will show the why. Therefore here we have the future and the why. you <<Similarly there must be a father before there can be a child, and thats why the future of the 9th house is the Lagna. But even the 9th house has a past, and hence we look to the 9th from it, as the 9th from every house is its protector and guide.>> me I can follow your logic, although i can argue that the result or future of the father is his child, it can be as well his past. If we believe in reincarnation, we can say that the child, although being the result or future of the father, is as well the past to the father. Because that child was the father of the father previously. (Or grand father, or great grandfather if the father is still alive. But we are told that in the process of reincarnation this may not necessarily be the point, because when we die, our next father may be a dog and not a human. The human form is rarely achieved, and it is due to our past purvapunya that our next body is decided. you <<So if someone says that Poorva Punya is seen in the 5th, i will agree. Because Poorva Punya is the results of ones past actions.. Not the past actions themselves.>> me Very subtle to the understanding but to my understanding purvapunya or the previous merits, although the results from our deeds are not separated from the subject that is the source of those deeds. We cannot separate the heat from the fire as we cannot separate the purvapunya from our past deeds. Something else that i want to clarify is this: you <<so be happy and you will be healthy :-)>> me I have heard a similar saying "be optimistic and you will be happy, be happy and you will be happy". However, i have seen that this attitude does not work. For example, i have a couple of friends that were living together. They used to quarrel in a very nasty way. However, after each quarrel they used to say "Be happy and you will be happy". In other words, they were just kidding themselves. After having had some 10 black eyes each due to their quarrels, they both decided to separate. Obviously, when the chemistry does not work out, the false pretendance of being happy will not work out. And sooner or later separation will occur. So far, under this last Moon eclipse in Scorpio, i have heard of 3 couples separating on the same day of the eclipse. One of the couples has since reunited, but i ask myself, for how long? Karmically, 2 couples have ended their karmic payment to each other, while the other couple still want to pay the interests left to be paid. In time, and due to their lucky stars all of them may find their right partner and live forever happy. Because this materialistic society is imperfect, schools do not teach how to be a nice couple or good parents. Therefore, the pupils "think" that the right thing to do is to get married, but they both do not have the foggiest idea of how to manage a partnership. Many couples at least in the Western countries have a wrong idea of what a marriage should be, and in consequence we at present have a very high rate of divorces. Karmically, both in the couple have to come to finish in this life, a debt from a previous life. The horoscopes will help to see the trends. Meaning that astrologers are going to get busier. Best wishes Natabara Das Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat SatTo , send an email to: gjlist-http://www.goravani.comYour use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 Dear Visti you <<I was taught the Asraya Concept by Sanjay Rath. Where he gets it i do not know, but it makes perfect sense.>> me What i meant is from which book i can read/study about the Asraya concept. Sanjay Rath is a great teacher and i know that he is not inventing things. He gets most of his knowledge from the parampara (disciplic succession), which is a perfect system to transmit knowledge. you <<I'm not sure how your example of the two couples has anything to do with "A smile a day keeps the sickness away" concept>> me Many thanks for your enquire. In this list we are dealing with a very cosmopolitan membership, and therefore we are learning to canvass for as many mentalities as possible. A gross Mexican joke cannot be understood by a British, and a subtle British joke cannot be understood by a Mexican. This is due to the different gunas ruling nationalities. I am going to try to explain in a different way. ""A smile a day keeps the sickness away" concept" may help some people to remain optimistic. However, i know people that such a concept does not help them. I did give the example of a couple that are always fighting like cats and dogs ( a general saying because there are cats and dogs living together and in harmony). Every time that the couple fight with each other, they think that a smile is going to bring happiness to them. But next day they fight again because smiles do not make them happy. In the end, they separate (or divorce)and then they may find real happiness. It is similar to searching for love. Because we do not know what love is, we cannot find love, only frustration. But once that we have paid all our bad karmas in that department, we will find love. Best wishes Natabara Das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 Vyam Vysadevaya Namah ---------------- Dear Natabara, The reason i didn't understand was because your example has nothing todo with the health of any person but the compatibilty of the couple. Best wishes, Visti. - natabara gjlist Monday, June 03, 2002 1:23 PM Re: [GJ] 9th house Dear Visti you <<I was taught the Asraya Concept by Sanjay Rath. Where he gets it i do not know, but it makes perfect sense.>> me What i meant is from which book i can read/study about the Asraya concept. Sanjay Rath is a great teacher and i know that he is not inventing things. He gets most of his knowledge from the parampara (disciplic succession), which is a perfect system to transmit knowledge. you <<I'm not sure how your example of the two couples has anything to do with "A smile a day keeps the sickness away" concept>> me Many thanks for your enquire. In this list we are dealing with a very cosmopolitan membership, and therefore we are learning to canvass for as many mentalities as possible. A gross Mexican joke cannot be understood by a British, and a subtle British joke cannot be understood by a Mexican. This is due to the different gunas ruling nationalities. I am going to try to explain in a different way. ""A smile a day keeps the sickness away" concept" may help some people to remain optimistic. However, i know people that such a concept does not help them. I did give the example of a couple that are always fighting like cats and dogs ( a general saying because there are cats and dogs living together and in harmony). Every time that the couple fight with each other, they think that a smile is going to bring happiness to them. But next day they fight again because smiles do not make them happy. In the end, they separate (or divorce)and then they may find real happiness. It is similar to searching for love. Because we do not know what love is, we cannot find love, only frustration. But once that we have paid all our bad karmas in that department, we will find love. Best wishes Natabara Das Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat SatTo , send an email to: gjlist-http://www.goravani.comYour use of is subject to the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 Dear Visti you <<The reason i didn't understand was because your example has nothing todo with the health of any person but the compatibilty of the couple.>> me Here we have another example of crossing wires. Again, here you are right in regard to your understanding. However, my understanding is different but logical. Have a look. The English language is very rich in meanings, similar to the Sanskrit language, where one word can have a different meaning according to the context used. In the example of the word "health", automatically, we are conditioned to think "illness". In other words, health is associated with the physical and mental well being of a person. However, the word health is a noun, and we can expand this word with adjectives like healthy. The word healthy is related to good health or beneficial, but when related to a thing it means "functioning well". We are right then in saying healthy about the urbanization of a city, or about the public transport, or about a compatibility. A system functioning well is a healthy system. A bad compatibility is an unhealthy compatibility. Therefore, can we use the word health in compatibilities? You have said "nothing todo with the health of any person but the compatibilty of the couple". I am not referring to the health of a person, but to the health of a compatibility. Best wishes Natabara Das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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