Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 Dear list members, I have often wondered about this.----- material energy is referred to as illusory energy and MAYA is defined as 'that which is not'.---Does this mean that in an absolute sense,matter does not exist? Let me illustrate my point with an example----let us say a person dreams that a tiger is pouncing on him and wakes up in fear.on waking up he realises that "it never was" but at that time(while dreaming),the whole thing seems REAL and the fear also is real. Similarly,is it that when seen from the plane of absolute reality or from a liberated state,all that we see in the material world is illusion or mental concoction. Also,is it that the cycle of repeated birth and death that a soul goes through is a kind of hypnotic dream which is not really happening? With best wishes, vivek. _______ Click below to visit monsterindia.com and review jobs in India or Abroad http://monsterindia.rediff.com/jobs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 Namaste Vivek, Sri Bhagwan Rajneesh(Osho) spake thus in "Tantra Vision:Door to Nirvana" - A commentary on Royal Song of Saraha; Let me tell you one anecdote. There was a hunter walking through the jungle, and he met a snarling tiger coming toward him on the path. He reached for his gun. To his horror, he saw that he had no bullets! The tiger was coming nearer. It was going to attack. 'What can i do? i'm going to be eaten up' thought the hunter, terror freezing him on the spot. Just as the tiger was about to spring, the hunter had a strange feeling. "i do believe all this is only a dream' he said to himself. 'If i try hard enough, i am sure i'll wake up.' So he pinched himself hard, and shook himself and blinked. In a moment the tiger was gone, the tiger disappeared; the hunter was safe in his own bed. What a relief! He still trembled with fright, but now he laughed too. How real that tiger had seemed! Thank goodness it was only a dream. When he felt calm again, the hunter got up and made himself a cup of tea. He still felt tired, so he sat outside his hut in a deck chair and smoked his pipe for a while. He really felt quite sleepy. So he tipped his hat over his face, and closed his eyes. 'i could sleep all day he said' he said. After a time, he heard growling. 'Bless me' said the hunter'i must have dropped off to sleep again. There's that tiger coming back. Go away, you silly tiger, i am tired of dreaming about you!' The tiger growled again, and came nearer. I'm not afraid of you. You are only a dream' said the hunter. Then he got up from his chair, walked up to the tiger, and punched it hard on the nose. 'What a funny man' thought the tiger. 'Men usually run away from me.' And, of course, seeing this strange man, the tiger escaped. When the tiger was just escaping through the door, the man became alert to it that he was fully awake and the tiger was not a dream; it was a reality. But what happened? The dream helped him even to tackle the real tiger. Naturally the tiger must have become very puzzled. 'This has never happened! What type of man is this that he gets up and hits me in the face just like that?' All is dream, but dreams can help to understand reality, even to overcome reality. And now you know that whatsoever has been done or not done, was just a dream. Now you know that karma, action, means nothing. Nothing is left. Nothing really happens. All is. Nothing happens. It is true- it has helped for this and that. Even while it was a dream, it was helpful- it brought me to this reality. I have stepped over that dream, but now i know it was a dream. Now i know it was false. I have not done anything, because nothing is ever done; it is all a dream, but it has helped- it has brought me to this ultimate fruition. This Samsara and that nirvana have both been enriched by that dream. The dream was not futile; it was helpful, utilitarian, but not true. Jai Osho! Hari Das ---------- >"Vivek " <keviv90 >gjlist >[GJ] about MAYA >Wed, Apr 24, 2002, 5:01 AM > > Dear list members, > I have often wondered about this.----- > material energy is referred to as illusory energy and MAYA is > defined as 'that which is not'.---Does this mean that in an > absolute sense,matter does not exist? > Let me illustrate my point with an example----let us say > a person dreams that a tiger is pouncing on him and wakes up in > fear.on waking up he realises that "it never was" but at that > time(while dreaming),the whole thing seems REAL and the fear also > is real. > Similarly,is it that when seen from the plane of absolute > reality or from a liberated state,all that we see in the material > world is illusion or mental concoction. > Also,is it that the cycle of repeated birth and death that a soul > goes through is a kind of hypnotic dream which is not really > happening? > With best wishes, > vivek. > _______ > Click below to visit monsterindia.com and review jobs in India or > Abroad > http://monsterindia.rediff.com/jobs > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > : gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 Similarly,is it that when seen from the plane of absolute reality or from a liberated state,all that we see in the material world is illusion or mental concoction. Dear Vivek, There are many beliefs in the world. You will have some claim this is a material universe and others will disagree. Learning about different conceptual ideas is a first step, but it is insufficient. The apparent or physical environment--whether it is made of material or seen as wholly illusory--is not the point. You are wise to determine that the correct answers to your own questions are those resonating to the highest ideals of your own heart. Best wishes, Carol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 Hi Vivek, This is the second part of Osho's Tantra Vision: The door to nirvana; Saraha says By what does not affect one How can one now be fettered? And the last sutra is of great beauty. When you really come home and you see what is, yu will not feel that you have become liberated. On the contrary, you will feel 'How ridiculous that i ever thought that i was not liberated.' The difference is great. If, when you come home, when you come to know what is, you start feeling very, very enhanced and you are in a very great euphoria, and you say 'Now i have become liberated, that means you are not liberated. That means you still think the bondage was real, that means you are still in a dream. Now in another dream: One dream was of bondage, this other dream is of liberation- but another dream again. Saraha says: When you really become liberated- liberated from all right and wrong, liberated from all good and bad- then you are not only liberated from bondage but from liberation itself. Then suddenly you start laughing. 'How ridiculous! The bondage cannot happen in the first place, the bondage had never happened! It was just a belief. I had believed in it, and i had created it through my belief. It was a dream; now the dream is over. That's why the last sentence ends on a question mark. Have you ever seen scripture ending on a question mark? This is the only one. I have not come across any other. Scriptures begin with a question mark and end with an answer. The introduction can be a question not the epilogue. But this beautiful song of Saraha ends on a question mark. 'If i am like a pig that covets worldly mire You must tell me what fault lies in a stainless mind. By what does not affect one How can one now be fettered?' He does not declare that he is enlightened. He does not declare that he is liberated. He does not declare that he has come home. He simply says: i laugh at the very idea i have gone anywhere. I have never gone anywhere. I have, always and always, been at my home. I have always been here and now. Only i was dreaming, so the dream created the illusion that i had gone somewhere. Now the dream has disappeared, and i am where i have always been. That's why he says How can one now be fettered? Nobody is there to be fettered; nothing is there to fetter. The bondage has disappeared, so has disappeared the man was in bondage. When the world disappears, the ego disappears- together; they are part of the same game. Inside is the ego, outside is the world. They cannot live apart; they are always together. When one disappears, the other disappears simultaneously. Now the ego is not there, and the world is not there. Saraha is propounding Buddha's great insight. Buddha says: There is no substance and there is no self. Substance is not there; all is empty. And the self is not inside you, there also it is all empty. To come to see this emptiness.. awareness floating in emptiness- pure awareness, unbounded awareness.. This awareness is emptiness itself, or this emptness is awareness itself. This emptiness is luminous with awareness, full of awareness. Tantra is a great insight into things as they really are. But remember, finally, it is not a philosophy, it is an insight. And if you want to go into it, you will have to go, not through the mind, but without the mind. No mind is the door to Tantra. Non-thinking is the way to Tantra. Experiencing is the key to Tantra. Jai Osho! Hari Das Does anybody want to comment on astrological factors for making a Tantrika? ---------- >"Vivek " <keviv90 >gjlist >[GJ] about MAYA >Wed, Apr 24, 2002, 5:01 AM > > Dear list members, > I have often wondered about this.----- > material energy is referred to as illusory energy and MAYA is > defined as 'that which is not'.---Does this mean that in an > absolute sense,matter does not exist? > Let me illustrate my point with an example----let us say > a person dreams that a tiger is pouncing on him and wakes up in > fear.on waking up he realises that "it never was" but at that > time(while dreaming),the whole thing seems REAL and the fear also > is real. > Similarly,is it that when seen from the plane of absolute > reality or from a liberated state,all that we see in the material > world is illusion or mental concoction. > Also,is it that the cycle of repeated birth and death that a soul > goes through is a kind of hypnotic dream which is not really > happening? > With best wishes, > vivek. > _______ > Click below to visit monsterindia.com and review jobs in India or > Abroad > http://monsterindia.rediff.com/jobs > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > : gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2002 Report Share Posted May 1, 2002 Hi gee sun, I read both your messages.thanks for sending all that. I would however like to point out that Osho did not believe in astrology.He ridiculed it a number of times. He was also against all scriptures including the vedas and Bhagvad Gita.His philosophy was a kind of voidism or something like Buddhism. with regards,vivek. hi everyone---does anybody have osho's horoscope?it should be an intresting one to study. On Thu, 25 Apr 2002 Gee Sunn wrote : >Hi Vivek, > >This is the second part of Osho's >Tantra Vision: The door to nirvana; > >Saraha says >By what does not affect one >How can one now be fettered? > >And the last sutra is of great beauty. >When you really come home and you see what is, >yu will not feel that you have become liberated. >On the contrary, you will feel 'How ridiculous >that i ever thought that i was not liberated.' >The difference is great. > >If, when you come home, when you come to >know what is, you start feeling very, very >enhanced and you are in a very great euphoria, >and you say 'Now i have become liberated, that >means you are not liberated. >That means you still think the bondage was real, >that means you are still in a dream. >Now in another dream: One dream was of bondage, >this other dream is of liberation- but another >dream again. > >Saraha says: When you really become liberated- >liberated from all right and wrong, liberated > from all good and bad- then you are not only >liberated from bondage but from liberation itself. >Then suddenly you start laughing. >'How ridiculous! The bondage cannot happen in the >first place, the bondage had never happened! >It was just a belief. I had believed in it, and >i had created it through my belief. >It was a dream; now the dream is over. > >That's why the last sentence ends on a question >mark. >Have you ever seen scripture ending on a >question mark? >This is the only one. >I have not come across any other. >Scriptures begin with a question mark and >end with an answer. >The introduction can be a question not the >epilogue. >But this beautiful song of Saraha ends on >a question mark. > >'If i am like a pig that covets >worldly mire >You must tell me what fault lies >in a stainless mind. >By what does not affect one >How can one now be fettered?' > >He does not declare that he is enlightened. >He does not declare that he is liberated. >He does not declare that he has come home. >He simply says: i laugh at the very idea i have >gone anywhere. I have never gone anywhere. >I have, always and always, been at my home. >I have always been here and now. >Only i was dreaming, so the dream created the >illusion that i had gone somewhere. >Now the dream has disappeared, and i am where >i have always been. > >That's why he says >How can one now be fettered? > >Nobody is there to be fettered; nothing is >there to fetter. The bondage has disappeared, >so has disappeared the man was in bondage. >When the world disappears, the ego disappears- >together; they are part of the same game. >Inside is the ego, outside is the world. >They cannot live apart; they are always together. >When one disappears, the other disappears >simultaneously. >Now the ego is not there, and the world is not >there. > >Saraha is propounding Buddha's great insight. >Buddha says: There is no substance and there >is no self. >Substance is not there; all is empty. >And the self is not inside you, there also it >is all empty. >To come to see this emptiness.. awareness floating >in emptiness- pure awareness, unbounded awareness.. > >This awareness is emptiness itself, or this >emptness is awareness itself. >This emptiness is luminous with awareness, >full of awareness. > >Tantra is a great insight into things as they >really are. >But remember, finally, it is not a philosophy, >it is an insight. >And if you want to go into it, you will have to >go, not through the mind, but without the mind. > >No mind is the door to Tantra. >Non-thinking is the way to Tantra. >Experiencing is the key to Tantra. > >Jai Osho! >Hari Das > >Does anybody want to comment on astrological >factors for making a Tantrika? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >---------- > >"Vivek " <keviv90 > >gjlist > >[GJ] about MAYA > >Wed, Apr 24, 2002, 5:01 AM > > > > > Dear list members, > > I have often wondered about this.----- > > material energy is referred to as illusory energy and MAYA >is > > defined as 'that which is not'.---Does this mean that in an > > absolute sense,matter does not exist? > > Let me illustrate my point with an example----let us say > > a person dreams that a tiger is pouncing on him and wakes up >in > > fear.on waking up he realises that "it never was" but at >that > > time(while dreaming),the whole thing seems REAL and the fear >also > > is real. > > Similarly,is it that when seen from the plane of absolute > > reality or from a liberated state,all that we see in the >material > > world is illusion or mental concoction. > > Also,is it that the cycle of repeated birth and death that a >soul > > goes through is a kind of hypnotic dream which is not really > > happening? > > With best wishes, > > vivek. > > _______ > > Click below to visit monsterindia.com and review jobs in India >or > > Abroad > > http://monsterindia.rediff.com/jobs > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > > : >gjlist- > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > >Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat >: >gjlist- > > > >Your use of is subject to > > > _______ Click below to visit monsterindia.com and review jobs in India or Abroad http://monsterindia.rediff.com/jobs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2002 Report Share Posted May 1, 2002 Hi Vivek, Have you read any of Osho's works? What the rumors say and what it is are two different things. A while back Mony Singh featured two articles of Osho's talks on astrology in his web site. They still can be accessed at; www.osho.com/...oken=27205691 He only ridiculed the quack astrologers. His birth datas are; Sri Bhagwan Rajneesh Dec 11, 1931 5:30 pm Gadawara, India Hari Om Hari Das ---------- >"Vivek " <keviv90 >gjlist >Re: Re: [GJ] about MAYA >Wed, May 1, 2002, 6:34 AM > > Hi gee sun, > I read both your messages.thanks for sending all that. > I would however like to point out that Osho did not believe in > astrology.He ridiculed it a number of times. > He was also against all scriptures including the vedas and Bhagvad > Gita.His philosophy was a kind of voidism or > something like Buddhism. > with regards,vivek. > hi everyone---does anybody have osho's horoscope?it should be an > intresting one to study. > > On Thu, 25 Apr 2002 Gee Sunn wrote : >>Hi Vivek, >> >>This is the second part of Osho's >>Tantra Vision: The door to nirvana; >> >>Saraha says >>By what does not affect one >>How can one now be fettered? >> >>And the last sutra is of great beauty. >>When you really come home and you see what is, >>yu will not feel that you have become liberated. >>On the contrary, you will feel 'How ridiculous >>that i ever thought that i was not liberated.' >>The difference is great. >> >>If, when you come home, when you come to >>know what is, you start feeling very, very >>enhanced and you are in a very great euphoria, >>and you say 'Now i have become liberated, that >>means you are not liberated. >>That means you still think the bondage was real, >>that means you are still in a dream. >>Now in another dream: One dream was of bondage, >>this other dream is of liberation- but another >>dream again. >> >>Saraha says: When you really become liberated- >>liberated from all right and wrong, liberated >> from all good and bad- then you are not only >>liberated from bondage but from liberation itself. >>Then suddenly you start laughing. >>'How ridiculous! The bondage cannot happen in the >>first place, the bondage had never happened! >>It was just a belief. I had believed in it, and >>i had created it through my belief. >>It was a dream; now the dream is over. >> >>That's why the last sentence ends on a question >>mark. >>Have you ever seen scripture ending on a >>question mark? >>This is the only one. >>I have not come across any other. >>Scriptures begin with a question mark and >>end with an answer. >>The introduction can be a question not the >>epilogue. >>But this beautiful song of Saraha ends on >>a question mark. >> >>'If i am like a pig that covets >>worldly mire >>You must tell me what fault lies >>in a stainless mind. >>By what does not affect one >>How can one now be fettered?' >> >>He does not declare that he is enlightened. >>He does not declare that he is liberated. >>He does not declare that he has come home. >>He simply says: i laugh at the very idea i have >>gone anywhere. I have never gone anywhere. >>I have, always and always, been at my home. >>I have always been here and now. >>Only i was dreaming, so the dream created the >>illusion that i had gone somewhere. >>Now the dream has disappeared, and i am where >>i have always been. >> >>That's why he says >>How can one now be fettered? >> >>Nobody is there to be fettered; nothing is >>there to fetter. The bondage has disappeared, >>so has disappeared the man was in bondage. >>When the world disappears, the ego disappears- >>together; they are part of the same game. >>Inside is the ego, outside is the world. >>They cannot live apart; they are always together. >>When one disappears, the other disappears >>simultaneously. >>Now the ego is not there, and the world is not >>there. >> >>Saraha is propounding Buddha's great insight. >>Buddha says: There is no substance and there >>is no self. >>Substance is not there; all is empty. >>And the self is not inside you, there also it >>is all empty. >>To come to see this emptiness.. awareness floating >>in emptiness- pure awareness, unbounded awareness.. >> >>This awareness is emptiness itself, or this >>emptness is awareness itself. >>This emptiness is luminous with awareness, >>full of awareness. >> >>Tantra is a great insight into things as they >>really are. >>But remember, finally, it is not a philosophy, >>it is an insight. >>And if you want to go into it, you will have to >>go, not through the mind, but without the mind. >> >>No mind is the door to Tantra. >>Non-thinking is the way to Tantra. >>Experiencing is the key to Tantra. >> >>Jai Osho! >>Hari Das >> >>Does anybody want to comment on astrological >>factors for making a Tantrika? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>---------- >> >"Vivek " <keviv90 >> >gjlist >> >[GJ] about MAYA >> >Wed, Apr 24, 2002, 5:01 AM >> > >> >> > Dear list members, >> > I have often wondered about this.----- >> > material energy is referred to as illusory energy and MAYA >>is >> > defined as 'that which is not'.---Does this mean that in an >> > absolute sense,matter does not exist? >> > Let me illustrate my point with an example----let us say >> > a person dreams that a tiger is pouncing on him and wakes up >>in >> > fear.on waking up he realises that "it never was" but at >>that >> > time(while dreaming),the whole thing seems REAL and the fear >>also >> > is real. >> > Similarly,is it that when seen from the plane of absolute >> > reality or from a liberated state,all that we see in the >>material >> > world is illusion or mental concoction. >> > Also,is it that the cycle of repeated birth and death that a >>soul >> > goes through is a kind of hypnotic dream which is not really >> > happening? >> > With best wishes, >> > vivek. >> > _______ >> > Click below to visit monsterindia.com and review jobs in India >>or >> > Abroad >> > http://monsterindia.rediff.com/jobs >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat >> > : >>gjlist- >> > >> > >> > >> > Your use of is subject to >> >> > >> > >> >> >> >>Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat >>: >>gjlist- >> >> >> >>Your use of is subject to >> >> >> > > _______ > Click below to visit monsterindia.com and review jobs in India or > Abroad > http://monsterindia.rediff.com/jobs > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > : gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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