Guest guest Posted March 12, 2002 Report Share Posted March 12, 2002 Dear Arun,you <<Thanks for your comments. I have found these discussions the most valuable in this list and pray that they continue…>> me So do I.you<<Let me give the entire verse from R. Santhanam's translation of SARAVALI of Kalyana Varma. Chapter 4 – Planetary CharactersVerse 1Atma ravi: sheethakarastu cheta: sattvam dharAja: shashijotha vANIGuru:sito jnanashukhe madashcha rAhu: shani: kAlanarasya dukhamR. Santhanam's translation:The sun is the soul of the zodiac personified, the Moon mind, Mars strength, Mercury speech (voice), Jupiter intelligence, Venus comforts, Rahu ego and Saturn grief.My attempt at word-to-word translationAtma – self, ravi – Sunsheethakara – moon (sheetha – cool, cold; kara: - hand)Tu – indeedcheta: - consciousness, perception etc.sattvam: vitality, power, vigour, strengthdharAja: - Mars (son of earth)shashija: Mercury (son of moon)atha: certainlyvANI: sound, voice, power of speechguru: - Jupitersita: - Venusjnana – knowledge, intelligencesukha – happiness, comforts etc.mada : conceit, (one of the shatripu -six enemies of man, namely kama krodha, lobha, moha, mada, maathsarya)Rahu: RahuShani : SaturnKalanarasya : of Time Personifieddu:kham: sorrow, pain etc.>> me I am not a Sanskrit expert but i love Sanskrit and i have heard it since 1973 from the lessons at the ISKCON temples. There may be some problems at some ISKCON's temples, as some people may claim, but every institution is prone to have them. The difference is that we seem to only hear about the ones at ISKCON. But we all are adults to know how to defend ourselves in cases of injustices, mismanagement or bad karma. Nevertheless, the benefits to get from ISKCON temples are greater than the harm that may come from those people that find difficult to control their low propensities. The aim of all of us is to go higher (like the song say "I want to take you higher") and not lower. Therefore, we are likely to be attacked or suffer from mosquitoes, but we are spiritual warriors and we have to further advance, does not matter what. I like the way that you give the translation. It is very useful and inspiring. Now i can see better why the translation has been given as comforts for Venus and grief for Saturn. However, i will tell you a practical story for you to see how i see sukha/dukha. About 1986, i was divorced and living in my own flat. One day i had the fortune of receiving the visit of 7 of my god-brothers for few days. One of those days, one of them was in the toilet and another one was outside of it, knocking hard at the door because he was dying to get in. Another of them told me "There we have a good example of sukha and dukha, this material universe is for the souls to experience sukha and dukha according to their karma. One is happy; sukha and the other is unhappy; dukha." Therefore, i can understand that the position of Venus in a Vedic horoscope indicates sukha; happiness and Saturn indicates dukha; unhappiness.you <<I think the word to word meanings are good enough to understand the meaning of the verse for anyone.>> me Yes, indeed. But what about; kama, krodha, lobha, moha, mada, maathsarya, if you are kind enough to translate for us. I can understand it as lust, anger etc but i prefer your translation. you "I do not agree here that Rahu is a moon node. The vedas say that Rahu is a demoniac planet. The karmic implications are that Rahu eclipses the luminaries due to past business in which the luminaries told Visnu that Rahu wanted to drink the nectar of immortality, by being disguised in the cue among the demigods.This vedic passage is celebrated in stone at the temples in Anghkar."<<I agree with you that Rahu is not the node of the moon from an esoteric (or real) perspective. But, referred to it thus to make it easy for me to communicate it to the members in the list. >> me You Sanskrit scholars or Indians (from India, because there are the Red Indians from America and the Indians from Mexico and Latinoamerica.) should be more explicit about those translations. But i can understand that many times it is very difficult to give the correct idea. Take for example the word dristi for vision, translated as aspect to satisfy the western astrologer mentality. Of course, the word aspect sells fast because most people are used to it but it does not give the right view or meaning. We have in the west other household words like karma which is deeper than we think. Of course some people may cough about Rahu not being a node as thought, but we have to realise that a node is another part of the misleading information or belief. We are told that the astronauts never went to the Moon but that they went to Rahu, which is an invisible planet from earth but visible in outer space. Of course many may cough as well to that idea but it is a question of believe that the magician is playing real tricks when in reality they are illusion. I do not want to believe in illusion, i want to believe in the truth even if it hurts me. And as the New Testament says "The Truth Shall Make You Free". you <<Thanks to people like you, the right meanings don't get diluted by individuals like myself, who lack higher level of rigour.>> me Thank you, but i think that you find a difficult task in giving us the right meaning. Remember that the western thinking is pragmatic in nature but unfortunately, it has been manipulated and controlled by those that think to know better, when in reality do not know the truth. And this trip has been going on for the last 2,000 years without us realising it.It is nice and interesting the way that you tell the story of Rahu. I have been told that when the same story is different, it is due to the fact that it happened in different ages or yugas. you<<The fact that Rahu-Kethu were between Sun and Moon in the queue for AMrta, would mean that they always hamper the flow of energy from the atma (sun) to the mind (moon). Thus they tend to cloud the mind and make the Sun ineffective at times. But, there is always a route for escape due to the grace of Lord Vishnu. As their origin is the maayavi (asuric magician), the whereabouts, lordship etc. have always been confusing to those who cannot divine the details. >> me Very good, and all this can be seen more prominent at the times of solar and moon eclipses, when Rahu or Ketu try to "eat" the Sun or Moon. That is why the chanting of mantras and fasting is advised during eclipses.you <<In my opinion, Rahu tends to give a sense of pride or arrogance to every individual depending on its location. There are many ways in which this pride develops. The most effective way employed by Rahu is to tease the individual by creating a void in a certain area of one's life and then filling the void later, while giving the individual an illusion that what has been achieved is due to personal effort. In other instances, Rahu clouds one's perception of oneself by hiding one's defects, thus feeding conceit. Only God's grace is our refuge to escape from this affliction.>> me Well we are all ears to learn.you <<sattvam: vitality, power, vigour, strength>> me It is very useful for us to see your translation of the indications for Mars. you <<cheta: - consciousness, perception etc.>> me Here, i understand the meaning for the soul, or the position of the Sun, which i understand for "the witness" but perception gives a better idea. you <<sheethakara – moon (sheetha – cool, cold; kara: - hand)>> me Here, i can say that the Moon has its own light as well. It has its own brilliance although it is cool or cold by n nature. you <<jnana – knowledge, intelligence>> me Here i did balance that in Mercury we have a superficial intelligence and in Jupiter, we have a deep intelligence with knowledge. Of course, intelligence in Mercury has knowledge as well but it may lack direction. In Jupiter, we have the guru, the guide, and therefore the deep knowledge. you <<vANI: sound, voice, power of speech>> me Here, Santhanam has translated as speech or voice for Mercury but to me i get more understanding with sound and power of speech. I am not saying that Santhanam's translation is bad but it is lacking an extension, perhaps due to the limits of space or western acceptance. So, i gather that for the study of speech in any individual's vedic horoscope, we have to see the 2nd house and mercury. This brings me the nice thought that we can associate with Guru through his vani. Jai Gurudeva. Thank you very much indeed Lots of Love, natabara das o:)-<<<<<<< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2002 Report Share Posted March 12, 2002 as far as santharams books are conerned he was a deciple of shri kn rao. and ditched him .. and since he did not understan astrology him self do read his books with a pinch of salt. and his pridictions have been wrong many a times.and have seen his times of astrology magazine. rao had given him pridictions about this death when he was thinking about some thing new.so hope you understand the greatnesss of santh. deepak singh On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 natabara wrote : >Dear Arun, > >you ><<Thanks for your comments. I have found these discussions the most valuable in this list and pray that they continue…>> > >me >So do I. > >you ><<Let me give the entire verse from R. Santhanam's translation of SARAVALI of Kalyana Varma. > >Chapter 4 – Planetary Characters > >Verse 1 >Atma ravi: sheethakarastu cheta: sattvam dharAja: shashijotha vANI >Guru:sito jnanashukhe madashcha rAhu: shani: kAlanarasya dukham > >R. Santhanam's translation: >The sun is the soul of the zodiac personified, the Moon mind, Mars strength, Mercury speech (voice), Jupiter intelligence, Venus >comforts, Rahu ego and Saturn grief. > >My attempt at word-to-word translation >Atma – self, >ravi – Sun >sheethakara – moon (sheetha – cool, cold; kara: - hand) >Tu – indeed >cheta: - consciousness, perception etc. >sattvam: vitality, power, vigour, strength >dharAja: - Mars (son of earth) >shashija: Mercury (son of moon) >atha: certainly >vANI: sound, voice, power of speech >guru: - Jupiter >sita: - Venus >jnana – knowledge, intelligence >sukha – happiness, comforts etc. >mada : conceit, (one of the shatripu -six enemies of man, namely >kama krodha, lobha, moha, mada, maathsarya) >Rahu: Rahu >Shani : Saturn >Kalanarasya : of Time Personified >du:kham: sorrow, pain etc.>> > >me >I am not a Sanskrit expert but i love Sanskrit and i have heard it since 1973 from the lessons at the ISKCON temples. > >There may be some problems at some ISKCON's temples, as some people may claim, but every institution is prone to have them. The difference is that we seem to only hear about the ones at ISKCON. But we all are adults to know how to defend ourselves in cases of injustices, mismanagement or bad karma. > >Nevertheless, the benefits to get from ISKCON temples are greater than the harm that may come from those people that find difficult to control their low propensities. > >The aim of all of us is to go higher (like the song say "I want to take you higher") and not lower. Therefore, we are likely to be attacked or suffer from mosquitoes, but we are spiritual warriors and we have to further advance, does not matter what. > >I like the way that you give the translation. It is very useful and inspiring. > >Now i can see better why the translation has been given as comforts for Venus and grief for Saturn. > >However, i will tell you a practical story for you to see how i see sukha/dukha. > >About 1986, i was divorced and living in my own flat. One day i had the fortune of receiving the visit of 7 of my god-brothers for few days. > >One of those days, one of them was in the toilet and another one was outside of it, knocking hard at the door because he was dying to get in. Another of them told me "There we have a good example of sukha and dukha, this material universe is for the souls to experience sukha and dukha according to their karma. One is happy; sukha and the other is unhappy; dukha." > >Therefore, i can understand that the position of Venus in a Vedic horoscope indicates sukha; happiness and Saturn indicates dukha; unhappiness. > >you ><<I think the word to word meanings are good enough to understand the meaning of the verse for anyone.>> > >me >Yes, indeed. But what about; kama, krodha, lobha, moha, mada, maathsarya, if you are kind enough to translate for us. > >I can understand it as lust, anger etc but i prefer your translation. > >you >"I do not agree here that Rahu is a moon node. The vedas say that Rahu is a demoniac planet. The karmic implications are that Rahu >eclipses the luminaries due to past business in which the luminaries told Visnu that Rahu wanted to drink the nectar of immortality, by being disguised in the cue among the demigods. > >This vedic passage is celebrated in stone at the temples in Anghkar." > ><<I agree with you that Rahu is not the node of the moon from an esoteric (or real) perspective. But, referred to it thus to make it easy for me to communicate it to the members in the list. >> > >me >You Sanskrit scholars or Indians (from India, because there are the Red Indians from America and the Indians from Mexico and Latinoamerica.) should be more explicit about those translations. But i can understand that many times it is very difficult to give the correct idea. Take for example the word dristi for vision, translated as aspect to satisfy the western astrologer mentality. Of course, the word aspect sells fast because most people are used to it but it does not give the right view or meaning. We have in the west other household words like karma which is deeper than we think. > >Of course some people may cough about Rahu not being a node as thought, but we have to realise that a node is another part of the misleading information or belief. > >We are told that the astronauts never went to the Moon but that they went to Rahu, which is an invisible planet from earth but visible in outer space. Of course many may cough as well to that idea but it is a question of believe that the magician is playing real tricks when in reality they are illusion. > >I do not want to believe in illusion, i want to believe in the truth even if it hurts me. And as the New Testament says "The Truth Shall Make You Free". > >you ><<Thanks to people like you, the right meanings don't get diluted by individuals like myself, who lack higher level of rigour.>> > >me >Thank you, but i think that you find a difficult task in giving us the right meaning. Remember that the western thinking is pragmatic in nature but unfortunately, it has been manipulated and controlled by those that think to know better, when in reality do not know the truth. And this trip has been going on for the last 2,000 years without us realising it. > >It is nice and interesting the way that you tell the story of Rahu. I have been told that when the same story is different, it is due to the fact that it happened in different ages or yugas. > >you ><<The fact that Rahu-Kethu were between Sun and Moon in the queue for AMrta, would mean that they always hamper the flow of energy from the >atma (sun) to the mind (moon). Thus they tend to cloud the mind and make the Sun ineffective at times. But, there is always a route for >escape due to the grace of Lord Vishnu. As their origin is the maayavi (asuric magician), the whereabouts, lordship etc. have always been confusing to those who cannot divine the details. >> > >me >Very good, and all this can be seen more prominent at the times of solar and moon eclipses, when Rahu or Ketu try to "eat" the Sun or Moon. That is why the chanting of mantras and fasting is advised during eclipses. > >you ><<In my opinion, Rahu tends to give a sense of pride or arrogance to every individual depending on its location. There are many ways in >which this pride develops. The most effective way employed by Rahu is to tease the individual by creating a void in a certain area of one's >life and then filling the void later, while giving the individual an illusion that what has been achieved is due to personal effort. In >other instances, Rahu clouds one's perception of oneself by hiding one's defects, thus feeding conceit. Only God's grace is our refuge >to escape from this affliction.>> > >me >Well we are all ears to learn. > >you ><<sattvam: vitality, power, vigour, strength>> > >me >It is very useful for us to see your translation of the indications for Mars. > >you ><<cheta: - consciousness, perception etc.>> > >me >Here, i understand the meaning for the soul, or the position of the Sun, which i understand for "the witness" but perception gives a better idea. > >you ><<sheethakara – moon (sheetha – cool, cold; kara: - hand)>> > >me >Here, i can say that the Moon has its own light as well. It has its own brilliance although it is cool or cold by n nature. > >you ><<jnana – knowledge, intelligence>> > >me >Here i did balance that in Mercury we have a superficial intelligence and in Jupiter, we have a deep intelligence with knowledge. Of course, intelligence in Mercury has knowledge as well but it may lack direction. In Jupiter, we have the guru, the guide, and therefore the deep knowledge. > >you ><<vANI: sound, voice, power of speech>> > >me >Here, Santhanam has translated as speech or voice for Mercury but to me i get more understanding with sound and power of speech. I am not saying that Santhanam's translation is bad but it is lacking an extension, perhaps due to the limits of space or western acceptance. > >So, i gather that for the study of speech in any individual's vedic horoscope, we have to see the 2nd house and mercury. > >This brings me the nice thought that we can associate with Guru through his vani. Jai Gurudeva. > >Thank you very much indeed > >Lots of Love, > >natabara das o:)-<<<<<<< > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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