Guest guest Posted March 5, 2002 Report Share Posted March 5, 2002 dear carol and sailesh i have slightly different opinion. Saturn is the fate, he sets in the west, he is the shadow. he is grief. thus whether strong or weak, his role doesnot change, he still gives grief may be in different ways. regards partha gjlist, "Shailesh" <scchadha@h...> wrote: > Dear Carol, > > [With permission from Partha] > > It means that when other planets are strong, well placed, etc, their signification will menifest equally strongly. > > In case of Saturn, its signification has been given as "grief" and its intensity will be in reverse proportion to Saturn's strength, dignity etc. > > In other words, stronger Saturn gives less "grief" and weaker Saturn gives more. > > Best wishes > > Shailesh > - > Carolhook@a... > gjlist > Tuesday, March 05, 2002 1:14 AM > Re: [GJ] Re: EGO OR NOT EGO > > > Dear Partha, > Please excuse me for venturing into this discussion, for I am wondering about the last part of Saravali's quotation. Can you describe what is meant by Saravali's words, "But in the case of Saturn it is different"? This does not explain to me what is the effect of Saturn when weak or strong. Thanking you in advance, Partha (or anyone else answering this question). > Carol > > In a message dated Mon, 4 Mar 2002 9:52:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, "partvinu5" <partvinu5> writes: > > > this is what i get from saraveli, i do understand that taking things > > verbatim is not correct > > please tell me why did saraveli the great scholar quote the below > > > > 1-2. Kalapurusha's Soul etc. and their Use > > The Sun is the soul of the Zodiac personified, the Moon mind, Mars > > strength, Mercury speech (voice), Jupiter intelligence, Venus > > comforts, Rahu ego and Saturn grief. If at birth planets indicative > > of soul etc. are strong, these significations will equally be strong. > > If these planets are weak, the effects are only meager. But in the > > case of Saturn it is different. > > > > regards > > partha > > > > > > > > > > gjlist, "natabara" <natabara@n...> wrote: > > > Dear Cynthia > > > > > > you > > > <<When I begin each session I show the Western chart and > > their "sign." > > > > > > I say that we in the west use this to identify the ego" "I am an > > Aries!" > > > > > > In Vedic, it is much deeper, here we see the Sun as the essence of > > the person or the soul.>> > > > > > > me > > > i think that it is a positive approach the way you describe the ego > > pattern to them. > > > > > > you > > > <<Buddha who suggests that for enlightenment and peace we must > > release the ego.>> > > > > > > me > > > Yes, but only Narayana (God) can tame the ego. > > > > > > you > > > <<Anyway, the summation is simple. Do you believe Freud who cut us > > into pieces and called on the ego or do you follow the enlightened > > Buddha who sought to help us become one with all?>> > > > > > > me > > > Here we have Freud and Bhuda. > > > As a Vaisnava i have a peculiar perspective. > > > The education makers of this materialistic so called western > > society, decided around the 19 century (to give a beginning of > > course, because they have been doing a similar thing for generations) > > to compile an educative system to give in schools. > > > > > > Therefore, they found suitable to incorporate into their > > curriculum, the theories of Darwin (which are given as facts rather > > than theories even if they do not have the tangible evidence), Freud > > (there are many better psychologists since him but he was stick on > > the curriculum as well), Karl Marx (they had to invent the opposition > > as well to control both sides) who did not invent the communist > > manifesto. The Pope at that time was already shouting against the > > communists two years before Marx was paid to write "his manifesto". > > > > > > The ego has the tendency to identify to a group (the "i Am of Aries > > and the i belong or i balance" of the opposite sign of Libra) and > > therefore it is easy to control both sides of the coin by allowing > > the opposition to exist. > > > > > > Regarding Bhuda, according to the Vedas, He is God with a > > particular mission. Bhuda came to attract those that wanted to > > identify with His teachings. In Buddha's time, most of people were > > killing indefense animals to satisfy their corrupted taste for meat > > eating. By eating meat people take part in killing and therefore > > they lose the sense of mercy. Without the sense of Mercy, people > > cannot understand God. Therefore God came to earth as the Bhuda to > > attract people to his "Ahimsa" (non violence) movement and in that > > way, people became converted to Buddhism and stopped killing animals. > > > > > > Therefore as a Vaisnava i follow the Bhagavad Gita to have a clear > > idea of those religious and philosophical views. > > > > > > you > > > <<I do not look for the ego in the Vedic chart because in my > > approach I seek to help the client unify not separate.>> > > > > > > me > > > I do the same. > > > > > > I do hope that this helps and that the list got my article called > > Ego. My computer says that the list got it but i got as well another > > email saying that the article was rejected. Perhaps it was too long > > to cope with the system. > > > > > > Best wishes > > > Natabara Das > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > > : gjlist-@e... > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > : gjlist-@e... > > > > Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2002 Report Share Posted March 5, 2002 Dear Partha, Two points here: We are discussing here a quote from SARAVALI which, incidentally, was posted by you. I do not think any present day savant has the knowledge or wisdom to repudiate his teachings. Saturn gives grief - no doubt - but depending upon its strength and 'dignity', the form & intensity will change. [i should KNOW that - undergoing MD and Sate Sati of RYK Sat sitting in LI Lagna]. Hope you concur! ! Shailesh - "partvinu5" <partvinu5 > <gjlist> Wednesday, March 06, 2002 9:00 AM [GJ] saturn-dear carol and sailesh > > dear carol and sailesh> > i have slightly different opinion. Saturn is the fate, he sets in the> west, he is the shadow. he is grief. thus whether strong or weak, his> role doesnot change, he still gives grief may be in different ways.> > regards> partha> > > > > > gjlist, "Shailesh" <scchadha@h...> wrote:> > Dear Carol,> >> > [With permission from Partha]> >> > It means that when other planets are strong, well placed, etc,> their signification will menifest equally strongly.> >> > In case of Saturn, its signification has been given as "grief" and> its intensity will be in reverse proportion to Saturn's strength,> dignity etc.> >> > In other words, stronger Saturn gives less "grief" and weaker> Saturn gives more.> >> > Best wishes> >> > Shailesh> > -> > Carolhook@a...> > To: gjlist> > Tuesday, March 05, 2002 1:14 AM> > Re: [GJ] Re: EGO OR NOT EGO> >> >> > Dear Partha,> > Please excuse me for venturing into this discussion, for I am> wondering about the last part of Saravali's quotation. Can you> describe what is meant by Saravali's words, "But in the case of> Saturn it is different"? This does not explain to me what is the> effect of Saturn when weak or strong. Thanking you in advance, Partha> (or anyone else answering this question).> > Carol> >> > In a message dated Mon, 4 Mar 2002 9:52:31 AM Eastern Standard> Time, "partvinu5" <partvinu5> writes:> >> > > this is what i get from saraveli, i do understand that taking> things> > > verbatim is not correct> > > please tell me why did saraveli the great scholar quote the> below> > >> > > 1-2. Kalapurusha's Soul etc. and their Use> > > The Sun is the soul of the Zodiac personified, the Moon mind,> Mars> > > strength, Mercury speech (voice), Jupiter intelligence, Venus> > > comforts, Rahu ego and Saturn grief. If at birth planets> indicative> > > of soul etc. are strong, these significations will equally be> strong.> > > If these planets are weak, the effects are only meager. But in> the> > > case of Saturn it is different.> > >> > > regards> > > partha> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > gjlist, "natabara" <natabara@n...> wrote:> > > > Dear Cynthia> > > >> > > > you> > > > <<When I begin each session I show the Western chart and> > > their "sign."> > > >> > > > I say that we in the west use this to identify the ego" "I> am an> > > Aries!"> > > >> > > > In Vedic, it is much deeper, here we see the Sun as the> essence of> > > the person or the soul.>>> > > >> > > > me> > > > i think that it is a positive approach the way you describe> the ego> > > pattern to them.> > > >> > > > you> > > > <<Buddha who suggests that for enlightenment and peace we must> > > release the ego.>>> > > >> > > > me> > > > Yes, but only Narayana (God) can tame the ego.> > > >> > > > you> > > > <<Anyway, the summation is simple. Do you believe Freud who> cut us> > > into pieces and called on the ego or do you follow the> enlightened> > > Buddha who sought to help us become one with all?>>> > > >> > > > me> > > > Here we have Freud and Bhuda.> > > > As a Vaisnava i have a peculiar perspective.> > > > The education makers of this materialistic so called western> > > society, decided around the 19 century (to give a beginning of> > > course, because they have been doing a similar thing for> generations)> > > to compile an educative system to give in schools.> > > >> > > > Therefore, they found suitable to incorporate into their> > > curriculum, the theories of Darwin (which are given as facts> rather> > > than theories even if they do not have the tangible evidence),> Freud> > > (there are many better psychologists since him but he was stick> on> > > the curriculum as well), Karl Marx (they had to invent the> opposition> > > as well to control both sides) who did not invent the communist> > > manifesto. The Pope at that time was already shouting against> the> > > communists two years before Marx was paid to write "his> manifesto".> > > >> > > > The ego has the tendency to identify to a group (the "i Am of> Aries> > > and the i belong or i balance" of the opposite sign of Libra)> and> > > therefore it is easy to control both sides of the coin by> allowing> > > the opposition to exist.> > > >> > > > Regarding Bhuda, according to the Vedas, He is God with a> > > particular mission. Bhuda came to attract those that wanted to> > > identify with His teachings. In Buddha's time, most of people> were> > > killing indefense animals to satisfy their corrupted taste for> meat> > > eating. By eating meat people take part in killing and> therefore> > > they lose the sense of mercy. Without the sense of Mercy,> people> > > cannot understand God. Therefore God came to earth as the> Bhuda to> > > attract people to his "Ahimsa" (non violence) movement and in> that> > > way, people became converted to Buddhism and stopped killing> animals.> > > >> > > > Therefore as a Vaisnava i follow the Bhagavad Gita to have a> clear> > > idea of those religious and philosophical views.> > > >> > > > you> > > > <<I do not look for the ego in the Vedic chart because in my> > > approach I seek to help the client unify not separate.>>> > > >> > > > me> > > > I do the same.> > > >> > > > I do hope that this helps and that the list got my article> called> > > Ego. My computer says that the list got it but i got as well> another> > > email saying that the article was rejected. Perhaps it was too> long> > > to cope with the system.> > > >> > > > Best wishes> > > > Natabara Das> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat> > > To , send an email to: gjlist-@e...> > > http://www.goravani.com> > >> > >> > > Your use of is subject to> > >> >> >> >> >> > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat> > : gjlist-@e...> > http://www.goravani.com> >> >> > Your use of is subject to> > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat> To , send an email to: gjlist-> http://www.goravani.com> > > Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2002 Report Share Posted March 6, 2002 Hi carol and sailesh I wud let to lend testimony to partha's view. Saturn is exalted in my Rasi and I certainly had my fair share of disappointments in life. Regards Llin --- partvinu5 <partvinu5 wrote: > > dear carol and sailesh > > i have slightly different opinion. Saturn is the > fate, he sets in the > west, he is the shadow. he is grief. thus whether > strong or weak, his > role doesnot change, he still gives grief may be in > different ways. > > regards > partha > > > > > > gjlist, "Shailesh" <scchadha@h...> > wrote: > > Dear Carol, > > > > [With permission from Partha] > > > > It means that when other planets are strong, well > placed, etc, > their signification will menifest equally strongly. > > > > In case of Saturn, its signification has been > given as "grief" and > its intensity will be in reverse proportion to > Saturn's strength, > dignity etc. > > > > In other words, stronger Saturn gives less "grief" > and weaker > Saturn gives more. > > > > Best wishes > > > > Shailesh > > - > > Carolhook@a... > > gjlist > > Tuesday, March 05, 2002 1:14 AM > > Re: [GJ] Re: EGO OR NOT EGO > > > > > > Dear Partha, > > Please excuse me for venturing into this > discussion, for I am > wondering about the last part of Saravali's > quotation. Can you > describe what is meant by Saravali's words, "But in > the case of > Saturn it is different"? This does not explain to me > what is the > effect of Saturn when weak or strong. Thanking you > in advance, Partha > (or anyone else answering this question). > > Carol > > > > In a message dated Mon, 4 Mar 2002 9:52:31 AM > Eastern Standard > Time, "partvinu5" <partvinu5> writes: > > > > > this is what i get from saraveli, i do > understand that taking > things > > > verbatim is not correct > > > please tell me why did saraveli the great > scholar quote the > below > > > > > > 1-2. Kalapurusha's Soul etc. and their Use > > > The Sun is the soul of the Zodiac personified, > the Moon mind, > Mars > > > strength, Mercury speech (voice), Jupiter > intelligence, Venus > > > comforts, Rahu ego and Saturn grief. If at > birth planets > indicative > > > of soul etc. are strong, these significations > will equally be > strong. > > > If these planets are weak, the effects are > only meager. But in > the > > > case of Saturn it is different. > > > > > > regards > > > partha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gjlist, "natabara" <natabara@n...> > wrote: > > > > Dear Cynthia > > > > > > > > you > > > > <<When I begin each session I show the > Western chart and > > > their "sign." > > > > > > > > I say that we in the west use this to > identify the ego" "I > am an > > > Aries!" > > > > > > > > In Vedic, it is much deeper, here we see the > Sun as the > essence of > > > the person or the soul.>> > > > > > > > > me > > > > i think that it is a positive approach the > way you describe > the ego > > > pattern to them. > > > > > > > > you > > > > <<Buddha who suggests that for enlightenment > and peace we must > > > release the ego.>> > > > > > > > > me > > > > Yes, but only Narayana (God) can tame the > ego. > > > > > > > > you > > > > <<Anyway, the summation is simple. Do you > believe Freud who > cut us > > > into pieces and called on the ego or do you > follow the > enlightened > > > Buddha who sought to help us become one with > all?>> > > > > > > > > me > > > > Here we have Freud and Bhuda. > > > > As a Vaisnava i have a peculiar perspective. > > > > The education makers of this materialistic > so called western > > > society, decided around the 19 century (to > give a beginning of > > > course, because they have been doing a similar > thing for > generations) > > > to compile an educative system to give in > schools. > > > > > > > > Therefore, they found suitable to > incorporate into their > > > curriculum, the theories of Darwin (which are > given as facts > rather > > > than theories even if they do not have the > tangible evidence), > Freud > > > (there are many better psychologists since him > but he was stick > on > > > the curriculum as well), Karl Marx (they had > to invent the > opposition > > > as well to control both sides) who did not > invent the communist > > > manifesto. The Pope at that time was already > shouting against > the > > > communists two years before Marx was paid to > write "his > manifesto". > > > > > > > > The ego has the tendency to identify to a > group (the "i Am of > Aries > > > and the i belong or i balance" of the opposite > sign of Libra) > and > > > therefore it is easy to control both sides of > the coin by > allowing > > > the opposition to exist. > > > > > > > > Regarding Bhuda, according to the Vedas, He > is God with a > > > particular mission. Bhuda came to attract > those that wanted to > > > identify with His teachings. In Buddha's > time, most of people > were > > > killing indefense animals to satisfy their > corrupted taste for > meat > > > eating. By eating meat people take part in > killing and > therefore > > > they lose the sense of mercy. Without the > sense === message truncated === Try FREE Mail - the world's greatest free email! / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2002 Report Share Posted March 6, 2002 Dear All I have yet another opinion of Saturn. I call him the truth-teller. Like an accountant he shows you what is a good investment of your time, energy or love and what is a poor investment. The grief comes when you hope for something other than the truth. Saturn transits make us more sensitive to what "is" that is why they appear to be depressing, we often want things to be different. Saturn forces us to slow down and see what or who we depend upon for joy or sustenance. When we dislike our jobs, Saturn often brings the loss of a job. When we are in a relationship where we prostitute ourselves or in some way sell ourselves as less or more than we are, then the Saturn transit often signals the end. Saturn delays until we can appreciate what is real. To simply say the he brings grief is to miss his greatest gifts: truth. We often want Saturn to move more quickly than he does. I do not believe that it is an accident that it usually takes 9 full months for Saturn to trigger a planet 3 times before he begins to leave. That grief is a rebirth. What is reborn is a sense of what is important or valuable to the native. He may have lost awareness of these during the rush of daily life, when Saturn takes away a job he offers time to remember ones values. cynthia - partvinu5 <partvinu5 <gjlist> Tuesday, March 05, 2002 9:30 PM [GJ] saturn-dear carol and sailesh > > dear carol and sailesh > > i have slightly different opinion. Saturn is the fate, he sets in the > west, he is the shadow. he is grief. thus whether strong or weak, his > role doesnot change, he still gives grief may be in different ways. > > regards > partha > > > > > > gjlist, "Shailesh" <scchadha@h...> wrote: > > Dear Carol, > > > > [With permission from Partha] > > > > It means that when other planets are strong, well placed, etc, > their signification will menifest equally strongly. > > > > In case of Saturn, its signification has been given as "grief" and > its intensity will be in reverse proportion to Saturn's strength, > dignity etc. > > > > In other words, stronger Saturn gives less "grief" and weaker > Saturn gives more. > > > > Best wishes > > > > Shailesh > > - > > Carolhook@a... > > gjlist > > Tuesday, March 05, 2002 1:14 AM > > Re: [GJ] Re: EGO OR NOT EGO > > > > > > Dear Partha, > > Please excuse me for venturing into this discussion, for I am > wondering about the last part of Saravali's quotation. Can you > describe what is meant by Saravali's words, "But in the case of > Saturn it is different"? This does not explain to me what is the > effect of Saturn when weak or strong. Thanking you in advance, Partha > (or anyone else answering this question). > > Carol > > > > In a message dated Mon, 4 Mar 2002 9:52:31 AM Eastern Standard > Time, "partvinu5" <partvinu5> writes: > > > > > this is what i get from saraveli, i do understand that taking > things > > > verbatim is not correct > > > please tell me why did saraveli the great scholar quote the > below > > > > > > 1-2. Kalapurusha's Soul etc. and their Use > > > The Sun is the soul of the Zodiac personified, the Moon mind, > Mars > > > strength, Mercury speech (voice), Jupiter intelligence, Venus > > > comforts, Rahu ego and Saturn grief. If at birth planets > indicative > > > of soul etc. are strong, these significations will equally be > strong. > > > If these planets are weak, the effects are only meager. But in > the > > > case of Saturn it is different. > > > > > > regards > > > partha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gjlist, "natabara" <natabara@n...> wrote: > > > > Dear Cynthia > > > > > > > > you > > > > <<When I begin each session I show the Western chart and > > > their "sign." > > > > > > > > I say that we in the west use this to identify the ego" "I > am an > > > Aries!" > > > > > > > > In Vedic, it is much deeper, here we see the Sun as the > essence of > > > the person or the soul.>> > > > > > > > > me > > > > i think that it is a positive approach the way you describe > the ego > > > pattern to them. > > > > > > > > you > > > > <<Buddha who suggests that for enlightenment and peace we must > > > release the ego.>> > > > > > > > > me > > > > Yes, but only Narayana (God) can tame the ego. > > > > > > > > you > > > > <<Anyway, the summation is simple. Do you believe Freud who > cut us > > > into pieces and called on the ego or do you follow the > enlightened > > > Buddha who sought to help us become one with all?>> > > > > > > > > me > > > > Here we have Freud and Bhuda. > > > > As a Vaisnava i have a peculiar perspective. > > > > The education makers of this materialistic so called western > > > society, decided around the 19 century (to give a beginning of > > > course, because they have been doing a similar thing for > generations) > > > to compile an educative system to give in schools. > > > > > > > > Therefore, they found suitable to incorporate into their > > > curriculum, the theories of Darwin (which are given as facts > rather > > > than theories even if they do not have the tangible evidence), > Freud > > > (there are many better psychologists since him but he was stick > on > > > the curriculum as well), Karl Marx (they had to invent the > opposition > > > as well to control both sides) who did not invent the communist > > > manifesto. The Pope at that time was already shouting against > the > > > communists two years before Marx was paid to write "his > manifesto". > > > > > > > > The ego has the tendency to identify to a group (the "i Am of > Aries > > > and the i belong or i balance" of the opposite sign of Libra) > and > > > therefore it is easy to control both sides of the coin by > allowing > > > the opposition to exist. > > > > > > > > Regarding Bhuda, according to the Vedas, He is God with a > > > particular mission. Bhuda came to attract those that wanted to > > > identify with His teachings. In Buddha's time, most of people > were > > > killing indefense animals to satisfy their corrupted taste for > meat > > > eating. By eating meat people take part in killing and > therefore > > > they lose the sense of mercy. Without the sense of Mercy, > people > > > cannot understand God. Therefore God came to earth as the > Bhuda to > > > attract people to his "Ahimsa" (non violence) movement and in > that > > > way, people became converted to Buddhism and stopped killing > animals. > > > > > > > > Therefore as a Vaisnava i follow the Bhagavad Gita to have a > clear > > > idea of those religious and philosophical views. > > > > > > > > you > > > > <<I do not look for the ego in the Vedic chart because in my > > > approach I seek to help the client unify not separate.>> > > > > > > > > me > > > > I do the same. > > > > > > > > I do hope that this helps and that the list got my article > called > > > Ego. My computer says that the list got it but i got as well > another > > > email saying that the article was rejected. Perhaps it was too > long > > > to cope with the system. > > > > > > > > Best wishes > > > > Natabara Das > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > > > : gjlist-@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > > : gjlist-@e... > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > : gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2002 Report Share Posted March 6, 2002 I agree with this. Saturn teaches us the truth. It might be painful depending how attached you are to the current delusion you are under or it might be very freeing to see the truth...liberating. I have Saturn conj Jup in Capricorn with Saturn in Aquarius in my Navamsa. I am under Sade Sati but what I am finding is a confirmation of what I have felt about things, events, people, etc. rather then some big shock everytime something changes. I don't think he's that awful unless you don't like his lessons. For me...Saturn teaches self reliance, self sufficiency (2nd house of money/assets...Moon in Taurus in Vedic and natal Saturn is in the 10th). Renee >>> c.a.novak 03/06/02 02:58PM >>> Dear All I have yet another opinion of Saturn. I call him the truth-teller. Like an accountant he shows you what is a good investment of your time, energy or love and what is a poor investment. The grief comes when you hope for something other than the truth. Saturn transits make us more sensitive to what "is" that is why they appear to be depressing, we often want things to be different. Saturn forces us to slow down and see what or who we depend upon for joy or sustenance. When we dislike our jobs, Saturn often brings the loss of a job. When we are in a relationship where we prostitute ourselves or in some way sell ourselves as less or more than we are, then the Saturn transit often signals the end. Saturn delays until we can appreciate what is real. To simply say the he brings grief is to miss his greatest gifts: truth. We often want Saturn to move more quickly than he does. I do not believe that it is an accident that it usually takes 9 full months for Saturn to trigger a planet 3 times before he begins to leave. That grief is a rebirth. What is reborn is a sense of what is important or valuable to the native. He may have lost awareness of these during the rush of daily life, when Saturn takes away a job he offers time to remember ones values. cynthia - partvinu5 <partvinu5 <gjlist> Tuesday, March 05, 2002 9:30 PM [GJ] saturn-dear carol and sailesh > > dear carol and sailesh > > i have slightly different opinion. Saturn is the fate, he sets in the > west, he is the shadow. he is grief. thus whether strong or weak, his > role doesnot change, he still gives grief may be in different ways. > > regards > partha > > > > > > gjlist, "Shailesh" <scchadha@h...> wrote: > > Dear Carol, > > > > [With permission from Partha] > > > > It means that when other planets are strong, well placed, etc, > their signification will menifest equally strongly. > > > > In case of Saturn, its signification has been given as "grief" and > its intensity will be in reverse proportion to Saturn's strength, > dignity etc. > > > > In other words, stronger Saturn gives less "grief" and weaker > Saturn gives more. > > > > Best wishes > > > > Shailesh > > - > > Carolhook@a... > > gjlist > > Tuesday, March 05, 2002 1:14 AM > > Re: [GJ] Re: EGO OR NOT EGO > > > > > > Dear Partha, > > Please excuse me for venturing into this discussion, for I am > wondering about the last part of Saravali's quotation. Can you > describe what is meant by Saravali's words, "But in the case of > Saturn it is different"? This does not explain to me what is the > effect of Saturn when weak or strong. Thanking you in advance, Partha > (or anyone else answering this question). > > Carol > > > > In a message dated Mon, 4 Mar 2002 9:52:31 AM Eastern Standard > Time, "partvinu5" <partvinu5> writes: > > > > > this is what i get from saraveli, i do understand that taking > things > > > verbatim is not correct > > > please tell me why did saraveli the great scholar quote the > below > > > > > > 1-2. Kalapurusha's Soul etc. and their Use > > > The Sun is the soul of the Zodiac personified, the Moon mind, > Mars > > > strength, Mercury speech (voice), Jupiter intelligence, Venus > > > comforts, Rahu ego and Saturn grief. If at birth planets > indicative > > > of soul etc. are strong, these significations will equally be > strong. > > > If these planets are weak, the effects are only meager. But in > the > > > case of Saturn it is different. > > > > > > regards > > > partha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gjlist, "natabara" <natabara@n...> wrote: > > > > Dear Cynthia > > > > > > > > you > > > > <<When I begin each session I show the Western chart and > > > their "sign." > > > > > > > > I say that we in the west use this to identify the ego" "I > am an > > > Aries!" > > > > > > > > In Vedic, it is much deeper, here we see the Sun as the > essence of > > > the person or the soul.>> > > > > > > > > me > > > > i think that it is a positive approach the way you describe > the ego > > > pattern to them. > > > > > > > > you > > > > <<Buddha who suggests that for enlightenment and peace we must > > > release the ego.>> > > > > > > > > me > > > > Yes, but only Narayana (God) can tame the ego. > > > > > > > > you > > > > <<Anyway, the summation is simple. Do you believe Freud who > cut us > > > into pieces and called on the ego or do you follow the > enlightened > > > Buddha who sought to help us become one with all?>> > > > > > > > > me > > > > Here we have Freud and Bhuda. > > > > As a Vaisnava i have a peculiar perspective. > > > > The education makers of this materialistic so called western > > > society, decided around the 19 century (to give a beginning of > > > course, because they have been doing a similar thing for > generations) > > > to compile an educative system to give in schools. > > > > > > > > Therefore, they found suitable to incorporate into their > > > curriculum, the theories of Darwin (which are given as facts > rather > > > than theories even if they do not have the tangible evidence), > Freud > > > (there are many better psychologists since him but he was stick > on > > > the curriculum as well), Karl Marx (they had to invent the > opposition > > > as well to control both sides) who did not invent the communist > > > manifesto. The Pope at that time was already shouting against > the > > > communists two years before Marx was paid to write "his > manifesto". > > > > > > > > The ego has the tendency to identify to a group (the "i Am of > Aries > > > and the i belong or i balance" of the opposite sign of Libra) > and > > > therefore it is easy to control both sides of the coin by > allowing > > > the opposition to exist. > > > > > > > > Regarding Bhuda, according to the Vedas, He is God with a > > > particular mission. Bhuda came to attract those that wanted to > > > identify with His teachings. In Buddha's time, most of people > were > > > killing indefense animals to satisfy their corrupted taste for > meat > > > eating. By eating meat people take part in killing and > therefore > > > they lose the sense of mercy. Without the sense of Mercy, > people > > > cannot understand God. Therefore God came to earth as the > Bhuda to > > > attract people to his "Ahimsa" (non violence) movement and in > that > > > way, people became converted to Buddhism and stopped killing > animals. > > > > > > > > Therefore as a Vaisnava i follow the Bhagavad Gita to have a > clear > > > idea of those religious and philosophical views. > > > > > > > > you > > > > <<I do not look for the ego in the Vedic chart because in my > > > approach I seek to help the client unify not separate.>> > > > > > > > > me > > > > I do the same. > > > > > > > > I do hope that this helps and that the list got my article > called > > > Ego. My computer says that the list got it but i got as well > another > > > email saying that the article was rejected. Perhaps it was too > long > > > to cope with the system. > > > > > > > > Best wishes > > > > Natabara Das > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > > > : gjlist-@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > > : gjlist-@e... > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > : gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat : gjlist- Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2002 Report Share Posted March 6, 2002 dear carol and sailesh i have slightly different opinion. Saturn is the fate, he sets in the west, he is the shadow. he is grief. thus whether strong or weak, his role doesnot change, he still gives grief may be in different ways. regards partha Thank you, Parva, for your thoughts about Saturn. I considered Saturn as setting in the West as a long shadow, and how Saturn can bring grief to a person's life. Then I decided to propose a different picture of Saturn. I would like to propose that a shadow has not much more to offer than temporary shade from the Light. This philosophical approach is offered in the Upanishads, where what is seen is not what is real and lasting, while what is unseen is that which lives forever. When we have our greatest sorrows we reach higher to God, asking our Creator to remember us. When we have our happiest days we may forget to praise God if we did not recall the sorrowful days. I think the sorrows of the material world are an illusory shadow that makes one forget the joy of existence up until one reaches the point of acceptance; that's when the shadows are pierced through, because that's when the self-imposed veil is lifted. The horrors of life, if that is what we all have in store for us, would make us renounce it....but we live again and again...and for what reason do we return...is it to endure dissatisfation and discord again and again, as if we'd never learned this in any prior lifetime? I think we are given simple truths that are so simple we easily dismiss them. Saturn returns to visit his shadow upon us at regular intervals. When does mankind grow tired of being afraid of a naturally recurring shadow? When does mankind declare that daytime is all the time, nightime is an illusion? The grief caused by Saturn is the pain of clutching onto that which no longer exists. As if we could hold the dynamic nature of life and freeze it into a static frame... Temporal or time-limited things change all the time in one's life, yet an all-pervading illumination persists into eternity, to be understood by those who allow inner self to be illumined. This is what Saturn is teaching us in our lifetimes. I agree with Zoran; praise Shani (Saturn)! Carol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2002 Report Share Posted March 6, 2002 Dear Cynthia, I think it's interesting that you call Saturn the truth-teller while I am thinking Saturn is the illusory one who veils the truth in earthly troubles for anyone attached to status quo! Yet both of us conclude that the end result is a person seeing the truth at last. Very good! Carol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2002 Report Share Posted March 6, 2002 dear sailesh i am not a savant , i am partha!!!.(hey just kidding). What i meant was that saturn does give grief, whether strong or weak whether in dignity or not in dignity. my reasoning is simple, he is fate and all the mortals who are born on this earth are born due to past sins, thus he punishes us in different ways. That is what Kalyan varma meant when he said that for saturn it is different, isnot he different. for the public figures he snatches away mental peace, for private and homely people he gives sickness etc. his role is to punish. if he doesnot punish then there would be no one in this world who would have worries or unhappiness. there is small quote which i would like to reproduce if all the the trees were paper and all the water were ink then what the hell would we do to eat and drink ANON regards partha gjlist, "Shailesh" <scchadha@h...> wrote: > Dear Partha, > > Two points here: > 1.. We are discussing here a quote from SARAVALI which, incidentally, was posted by you. I do not think any present day savant has the knowledge or wisdom to repudiate his teachings. > 2.. Saturn gives grief - no doubt - but depending upon its strength and 'dignity', the form & intensity will change. [i should KNOW that - undergoing MD and Sate Sati of RYK Sat sitting in LI Lagna]. > Hope you concur! ! > > Shailesh > > - > "partvinu5" <partvinu5> > <gjlist> > Wednesday, March 06, 2002 9:00 AM > [GJ] saturn-dear carol and sailesh > > > > > > dear carol and sailesh > > > > i have slightly different opinion. Saturn is the fate, he sets in the > > west, he is the shadow. he is grief. thus whether strong or weak, his > > role doesnot change, he still gives grief may be in different ways. > > > > regards > > partha > > > > > > > > > > > > gjlist, "Shailesh" <scchadha@h...> wrote: > > > Dear Carol, > > > > > > [With permission from Partha] > > > > > > It means that when other planets are strong, well placed, etc, > > their signification will menifest equally strongly. > > > > > > In case of Saturn, its signification has been given as "grief" and > > its intensity will be in reverse proportion to Saturn's strength, > > dignity etc. > > > > > > In other words, stronger Saturn gives less "grief" and weaker > > Saturn gives more. > > > > > > Best wishes > > > > > > Shailesh > > > - > > > Carolhook@a... > > > gjlist > > > Tuesday, March 05, 2002 1:14 AM > > > Re: [GJ] Re: EGO OR NOT EGO > > > > > > > > > Dear Partha, > > > Please excuse me for venturing into this discussion, for I am > > wondering about the last part of Saravali's quotation. Can you > > describe what is meant by Saravali's words, "But in the case of > > Saturn it is different"? This does not explain to me what is the > > effect of Saturn when weak or strong. Thanking you in advance, Partha > > (or anyone else answering this question). > > > Carol > > > > > > In a message dated Mon, 4 Mar 2002 9:52:31 AM Eastern Standard > > Time, "partvinu5" <partvinu5> writes: > > > > > > > this is what i get from saraveli, i do understand that taking > > things > > > > verbatim is not correct > > > > please tell me why did saraveli the great scholar quote the > > below > > > > > > > > 1-2. Kalapurusha's Soul etc. and their Use > > > > The Sun is the soul of the Zodiac personified, the Moon mind, > > Mars > > > > strength, Mercury speech (voice), Jupiter intelligence, Venus > > > > comforts, Rahu ego and Saturn grief. If at birth planets > > indicative > > > > of soul etc. are strong, these significations will equally be > > strong. > > > > If these planets are weak, the effects are only meager. But in > > the > > > > case of Saturn it is different. > > > > > > > > regards > > > > partha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gjlist, "natabara" <natabara@n...> wrote: > > > > > Dear Cynthia > > > > > > > > > > you > > > > > <<When I begin each session I show the Western chart and > > > > their "sign." > > > > > > > > > > I say that we in the west use this to identify the ego" "I > > am an > > > > Aries!" > > > > > > > > > > In Vedic, it is much deeper, here we see the Sun as the > > essence of > > > > the person or the soul.>> > > > > > > > > > > me > > > > > i think that it is a positive approach the way you describe > > the ego > > > > pattern to them. > > > > > > > > > > you > > > > > <<Buddha who suggests that for enlightenment and peace we must > > > > release the ego.>> > > > > > > > > > > me > > > > > Yes, but only Narayana (God) can tame the ego. > > > > > > > > > > you > > > > > <<Anyway, the summation is simple. Do you believe Freud who > > cut us > > > > into pieces and called on the ego or do you follow the > > enlightened > > > > Buddha who sought to help us become one with all?>> > > > > > > > > > > me > > > > > Here we have Freud and Bhuda. > > > > > As a Vaisnava i have a peculiar perspective. > > > > > The education makers of this materialistic so called western > > > > society, decided around the 19 century (to give a beginning of > > > > course, because they have been doing a similar thing for > > generations) > > > > to compile an educative system to give in schools. > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, they found suitable to incorporate into their > > > > curriculum, the theories of Darwin (which are given as facts > > rather > > > > than theories even if they do not have the tangible evidence), > > Freud > > > > (there are many better psychologists since him but he was stick > > on > > > > the curriculum as well), Karl Marx (they had to invent the > > opposition > > > > as well to control both sides) who did not invent the communist > > > > manifesto. The Pope at that time was already shouting against > > the > > > > communists two years before Marx was paid to write "his > > manifesto". > > > > > > > > > > The ego has the tendency to identify to a group (the "i Am of > > Aries > > > > and the i belong or i balance" of the opposite sign of Libra) > > and > > > > therefore it is easy to control both sides of the coin by > > allowing > > > > the opposition to exist. > > > > > > > > > > Regarding Bhuda, according to the Vedas, He is God with a > > > > particular mission. Bhuda came to attract those that wanted to > > > > identify with His teachings. In Buddha's time, most of people > > were > > > > killing indefense animals to satisfy their corrupted taste for > > meat > > > > eating. By eating meat people take part in killing and > > therefore > > > > they lose the sense of mercy. Without the sense of Mercy, > > people > > > > cannot understand God. Therefore God came to earth as the > > Bhuda to > > > > attract people to his "Ahimsa" (non violence) movement and in > > that > > > > way, people became converted to Buddhism and stopped killing > > animals. > > > > > > > > > > Therefore as a Vaisnava i follow the Bhagavad Gita to have a > > clear > > > > idea of those religious and philosophical views. > > > > > > > > > > you > > > > > <<I do not look for the ego in the Vedic chart because in my > > > > approach I seek to help the client unify not separate.>> > > > > > > > > > > me > > > > > I do the same. > > > > > > > > > > I do hope that this helps and that the list got my article > > called > > > > Ego. My computer says that the list got it but i got as well > > another > > > > email saying that the article was rejected. Perhaps it was too > > long > > > > to cope with the system. > > > > > > > > > > Best wishes > > > > > Natabara Das > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > > > > : gjlist-@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > > > : gjlist-@e... > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > > : gjlist-@e... > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2002 Report Share Posted March 7, 2002 Dear Carol I can see your perspective and I do agree. <great big grins> That brings up the question: Is what appears in the chart the "truth" or is it the natives "perceptions?" I assume that the person is limited and so can only see his troubles while Saturn who has the wisdom of age and understands that this cycle is only one of many, is trying to show the truth. I can still recall the year when SAturn most tightly crossed my Moon. My inner wisdom kept telling me to move to Dallas. My rathional mind said "no way!" I had a particular perception of "D" that was limited by stereotypes and my only limited perspective. Again and again I heard the voive move to "D" but I resisted. I didn't know anyone there and when you live in Austin TX where there is beautiful scenery and liberal people the thought of moving to "D" were I thought the population was full of high-rolling business men and women who cared little about anything but their appearances. Anyway, one thing happened after another. Including having hornets nest in the door frame of my humble little duplex that the landlord felt no inclination to repair...ever. Ahh yes, but the rent was low. To continue, the hornets stung me about 5 times in the course of a week and no one else. Now talk about a sign to move! Nope, I held on. I had left my old job and took my 401k fully expecting to have another job. I had a good connection and 3 interviews but at the last minute they chose another. I ended up with a boring low-paying job. Finally, I met a man that I thought would save me. We had a relationship and I helped him when he was struggling so he offered me a place to stay for a few months in "D." Two weeks before the move he said he didn't love me but felt obligated to help me because he had promised and I had helped him. It was tough but in just 3 months I had a business as an astrologer. I ended up renting his upstairs in a lovely neighborhood and I was launched as an astrologer. So, did Saturn bring suffering or did I through my stubborn refusal to heed inner wisdom bring the suffering? Did Saturn take away that relationship (thank goodness!) or did he provide it as a means to get me off my duff and on my way. Oh, I forgot, I also got a notice from my landlord that while I had never been late on my rent he wanted me to vacate so he could do repairs and rent it to someone else for more. Did Saturn bring trouble or did I bring my own trouble while Saturn was trying to help me see the truth? Saturn knows that this cycle will pass, we are those trapped in our perceptions that it is suffering. Saturn helps us rebuild a foundation, we are limited by the perception that what we have built is all we will build upon. <great big grins> That brings up the question: Is what appears in the chart the "truth" or is it the natives "perceptions?" cynthia - <Carolhook <gjlist> Wednesday, March 06, 2002 11:47 PM Re: [GJ] saturn-dear carol and sailesh > Dear Cynthia, > I think it's interesting that you call Saturn the truth-teller while I am > thinking Saturn is the illusory one who veils the truth in earthly troubles > for anyone attached to status quo! Yet both of us conclude that the end > result is a person seeing the truth at last. Very good! > Carol Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > : gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2002 Report Share Posted March 7, 2002 Dear Carol These paragraphs are beautiful and wise. I hope you don't mind if I paste the two together so that we might read them again and again. c I think the sorrows of the material world are an illusory shadow that makes one forget the joy of existence up until one reaches the point of acceptance; that's when the shadows are pierced through, because that's when the self-imposed veil is lifted. The horrors of life, if that is what we all have in store for us, would make us renounce it....but we live again and again...and for what reason do we return...is it to endure dissatisfation and discord again and again, as if we'd never learned this in any prior lifetime? I think we are given simple truths that are so simple we easily dismiss them. Saturn returns to visit his shadow upon us at regular intervals. When does mankind grow tired of being afraid of a naturally recurring shadow? When does mankind declare that daytime is all the time, nightime is an illusion? The grief caused by Saturn is the pain of clutching onto that which no longer exists. As if we could hold the dynamic nature of life and freeze it into a static frame... Temporal or time-limited things change all the time in one's life, yet an all-pervading illumination persists into eternity, to be understood by those who allow inner self to be illumined. This is what Saturn is teaching us in our lifetimes. I agree with Zoran; praise Shani (Saturn)! Carol I would ad only one thing, It is important for the astrologer to have compassion for the one who is in the midst of the Saturn journey. It takes time to see the gift from beneath the veil of the grief. Often that takes the 3rd or final pass of Saturn over a planet. The more personal the planet i.e. Moon, the more personal the grief and so the greater the lesson. Many clients come to the astrologer during the Sade SAti. Many are already on anti-depressants. The gift of astrology is to open the door to the gift even though the client may not be able to see it immediately. c Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2002 Report Share Posted March 7, 2002 Saturn helps us rebuild a foundation, we are limited by the perception that what we have built is all we will build upon. <great big grins> That brings up the question: Is what appears in the chart the "truth" or is it the natives "perceptions?" Dear Cynthia, Thank you for your questions. The answers seem to be coming from you without any effort at all, actually. Because both the truth and the tendencies or perceptions are in the same chart. The horoscope reflects the moment the soul inhabiting the infant takes a breath into this lifetime. That infant started to breathe at the moment in creation that perfectly expresses its desire to experience the path of life towards true moksha, or liberation from returning to earth again and again. The horoscope of that moment is a blueprint or mandala that describes the person's physical and environmental condition, the course of life events, and the spiritual advancement of the soul. It is a "course outline" that shows when there will be efforts to study and learn one's life lessons, when there will be recreation, and when there will be those Saturnian exams. For many of us, this chart accurately shows the high points and low points of our lives, and all sorts of other interesting things about ourselves and those we interact with. Yet there are those avatars and highly-evolved souls who are able to reach so high in their spiritual attainments that the blueprint of a horoscope is not needed by them, nor would one accuractely describe those souls' lives and accomplishments. You have before you the book of life, and you read it to see what is there. But at all times you are free to rise above the mundane or limiting aspects of life. This is not easy for one to do, yet we see it done by heroes of our day. The Olympic medal winner who would not be stopped by his doctor's advice that he should not compete, Christopher Reeve who, without the use of his body, continues to inspire humanity towards alleviating the suffering of others, and countless heroes who save lives without thinking of their own--these are contemporaries who have risen above life's apparent limitations to inspire the rest of us. I think of Helen Keller and Mother Teresa, too, as great souls coming to show us that apparent limitations of birth or circumstance need not stop one from great accomplishments. In the Bhagavad Gita, at one point Krishna speaks to Arjuna, "The senses, the mind, and the intellect Are said to be its (i.e. the eternal enemy's) abode: With these, it confuses the embodied one, Obscuring his knowledge. "Therefore, restraining the senses First, O Arjuna, Kill this evil demon Which destroys knowledge and discrimination." The discrimination to be used, according to Krishna, is that of doing actions as a duty and without attachment to the outcome. That gets us back to the discussion of Saturn bringing us sorrows due to our attachment, and freedom from sorrow when we release those attachments. It takes much effort to do, which is why Saturn presses down upon us until we reach acceptance of truth and start doing whatever good things we can do, regardless. That is when miracles happen. Best wishes, Carol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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