Astrology and Destiny - Cynthia

February 9, 2002

Dear Cynthia,

Very interesting response:

At 07:44 PM 2/9/02 -0600, you wrote:

Dear Robert

I don't need astrology. I do not see it as

deterministic. There are traits and trends. I was merely responding

to your statement that if the qualities I saw in a group of charts was

valid then you would have a PhD. My response to that is that you

have free will.

I virtually had no free will over what happened to me in my youthful

years of high school and college, and thereafter as well. Are you

kidding? Should a young man born and raised in America, at the age

of 19, decide to join a monastery and become celibate for the next 20

years of life? No free will! God decided this for me, and so

I did it. I had nary an inkling that I would become a

celibate monk, and then later on become an astrologer. I wanted to

go to college and become a doctor like my father. Free will?

Not in the least - I just picked from where I left off in the previous

lifetimes.

>To me the chart is a whole group of often subtle traits

and talents. What they are ultimately used for depends upon

individual. I even believe that we have a destiny, I just do not

think that astrology is god and so astrologers will not know what a

person's destiny is. We can talk about traits and talents, but what

a person does with them as well as how he works with his difficulties is

up to him. Here, I think astrology offers its richest

gifts. Helping another unwrap the package he was born with...not

telling him what he is to be based upon the ego and the filters that

every astrologer has because we are all ultimately human evenif we

temporarily for it.

I appreciate your views, and see that you are a sincere astrologer

(although I have not met you before, or interacted with you until

now). Anyway, let me make a few responses to what you wrote above:

* If you accept that talents and traits are aspects of a person's

"destiny", then you do indeed believe in

pre-determinism. Were it not for the use of free will in

prior existences, then we would not have any such things as traits and

talents.

* If the chart reflects such traits and talents, then why also

should it not reflect the times in this life, and the magnitude to which,

such traits and talents shall have the opportunity to manifest now and in

the future?

* So, on the one hand, you are saying that possibilities, trends, or

traits are destined, yet on the other hand, you do not think that the

occurrence of such, or the event of such are pre-determined. Is

that right? This is confusing and contradictory. Please

explain -

* Further (and I don't mean to sound like I am challenging you - just

trying to get into your head) - if we ignore such things as strengths and

weakness of planets, exaltation and debilitation, Shad-bala, etc., then

how can we determine who is destined to have what talents and traits, and

to what degree? Finally, I don't get where you're coming from, when

you insist on free will, yet ignore the fact that everything we do, are,

or will become, is the result of the accumulating free will from prior

existences also (?). Any comments to clear up these apparently

conflicting points of view, would be appreciated (and I do appreciate

your views, as you evidently are a sincere and experienced

astrologer).

* If you do not believe that an astrologer can predict, or forecast

someone's destiny, then why do your bother with Jyotish, the very

foundations of which are predictive in nature?

Thanks! And I apologize if I sound offensive - just trying to get

at the truth here.

Best wishes,

Robert

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit

<http://www.robertkoch.com>

or e-mail

rk (AT) robertkoch (DOT) com.

rk (AT) robertkoch (DOT) com

and

rkoch (AT) bendnet (DOT) com rkoch (AT) bendnet (DOT) com

February 9, 2002

to fellow listers, I apologize for using this format, there was no other place

answer this question. After this, I promise to return to the nakshatras. It

is not my intent to prescribe how any astrology do his or her work. This is

merely a response to the direct question of why I would bother with Jyotish

which I love if I don't want to make predictions. I have made predictions and

noted that if a terrorist attack would come it would be the week of Sept. 10th.

There have been others, but none are made to tell another who he is and what he

must do or is limited by. I do not intend to make my astrology practice one of

predictions for the following reasons.

Dear Robert

I think that it is of the utmost egotism for anyone to predict another's future

or destiny. That is up to that person and god or gods if you like. I believe

that when the astrologer confuses himself with the gods that he can do more

damage than good. I have had to do too much damage control for clients who

have been torn apart by an astrologer who had the audacity to presume that he

or she knew precisely what was in store for that person. That is what is in my

head and what is in my heart. I sincerely hope that you will stop before you

predict and take the time to feel. After all, some of those ancient texts

suggest that the best astrologer has a strong Venus, not a strong Mercury.

None of us will truly "know" the good or harm that we have done until this life

has come to an end. I bother with Jyotish not because I want to be the god or

the great one to tell another his or her destiny, but to be there as they come

to know it. I see my role as one who facilitates turning over the rocks to see

what is there and how is may be used.

Again and again astrologers take the leap of presuming to know what will come

and again and again they miss the mark. I suspect that astrology is really

richer and more subtle than that. I think that this life is meant to be

experienced and explored, not dictated and predicted. IF a person's mind or

perceptions are in alignment, then the dasha or transit will be a moot point.

If the person is in such alignment, then the astrologer who presumes that same

being is limited by the houses or dashas or transits of how many umpteen vargas

is the biggest fool of all because he is unable to see what is before him.

I am ever humbled by the beauty and subtlety of astrology and the richness of

its understanding. TO simply predict that someone will be a doctor pales in

the light of this. I only wish that more astrologers would look deeper than

prediction and come to know what an honor it is to help someone know their

potential rather than their limitations.

That is what is in my head. I have nothing more to say about this. I would

rather discuss the nakshatras.

c

-

Robert A. Koch

gjlist

Saturday, February 09, 2002 10:17 PM

[GJ] Astrology and Destiny - Cynthia

Dear Cynthia, Very interesting response: At 07:44 PM 2/9/02 -0600, you wrote:

Dear Robert I don't need astrology. I do not see it as deterministic. There are

traits and trends. I was merely responding to your statement that if the

qualities I saw in a group of charts was valid then you would have a PhD. My

response to that is that you have free will.I virtually had no free will over

what happened to me in my youthful years of high school and college, and

thereafter as well. Are you kidding? Should a young man born and raised in

America, at the age of 19, decide to join a monastery and become celibate for

the next 20 years of life? No free will! God decided this for me, and so I

did it. I had nary an inkling that I would become a celibate monk, and then

later on become an astrologer. I wanted to go to college and become a doctor

like my father. Free will? Not in the least - I just picked from where I left

off in the previous lifetimes. >To me the chart is a whole group of often

subtle traits and talents. What they are ultimately used for depends upon

individual. I even believe that we have a destiny, I just do not think that

astrology is god and so astrologers will not know what a person's destiny is.

We can talk about traits and talents, but what a person does with them as well

as how he works with his difficulties is up to him. Here, I think astrology

offers its richest gifts. Helping another unwrap the package he was born

with...not telling him what he is to be based upon the ego and the filters that

every astrologer has because we are all ultimately human evenif we temporarily

for it.I appreciate your views, and see that you are a sincere astrologer

(although I have not met you before, or interacted with you until now).

Anyway, let me make a few responses to what you wrote above: * If you accept

that talents and traits are aspects of a person's "destiny", then you do indeed

believe in pre-determinism. Were it not for the use of free will in prior

existences, then we would not have any such things as traits and talents. *

If the chart reflects such traits and talents, then why also should it not

reflect the times in this life, and the magnitude to which, such traits and

talents shall have the opportunity to manifest now and in the future? * So, on

the one hand, you are saying that possibilities, trends, or traits are destined,

yet on the other hand, you do not think that the occurrence of such, or the

event of such are pre-determined. Is that right? This is confusing and

contradictory. Please explain - * Further (and I don't mean to sound like I am

challenging you - just trying to get into your head) - if we ignore such things

as strengths and weakness of planets, exaltation and debilitation, Shad-bala,

etc., then how can we determine who is destined to have what talents and

traits, and to what degree? Finally, I don't get where you're coming from,

when you insist on free will, yet ignore the fact that everything we do, are,

or will become, is the result of the accumulating free will from prior

existences also (?). Any comments to clear up these apparently conflicting

points of view, would be appreciated (and I do appreciate your views, as you

evidently are a sincere and experienced astrologer). * If you do not believe

that an astrologer can predict, or forecast someone's destiny, then why do your

bother with Jyotish, the very foundations of which are predictive in nature?

Thanks! And I apologize if I sound offensive - just trying to get at the truth

here.

Best wishes,

Robert

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk (AT) robertkoch (DOT) com. rk (AT) robertkoch (DOT) com and

rkoch (AT) bendnet (DOT) com rkoch (AT) bendnet (DOT) comOm Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare

Krishna; Om Tat Sat:

gjlist-http://www.goravani.comYour use of

is subject to the

February 10, 2002

Dear Cynthia,

At 11:35 PM 2/9/02 -0600, you wrote:

Dear Robert

I think that it is of the utmost egotism for anyone to

predict another's future or destiny. That is up to that person and

god or gods if you like. I believe that when the astrologer

confuses himself with the gods that he can do more damage than

good. I have had to do too much damage control for clients who have

been torn apart by an astrologer who had the audacity to presume that he

or she knew precisely what was in store for that person. That is

what is in my head and what is in my heart. I sincerely hope that

you will stop before you predict and take the time to feel. After

all, some of those ancient texts suggest that the best astrologer has a

strong Venus, not a strong Mercury. None of us will truly

"know" the good or harm that we have done until this life has

come to an end. I bother with Jyotish not because I want to be the

god or the great one to tell another his or her destiny, but to be there

as they come to know it. I see my role as one who facilitates

turning over the rocks to see what is there and how is may be used.

It is very presumptuous to say that the great Jyotishis before us, such

as the late B.V. Raman, K.S. Krsnamurti, M.K. Gandhi, what to speak of

sages Parasara and Jaimini and others, are arrogant people who whose

emphasis on predictive work in Jyotish is the "utmost

egotism". Your approach to astrology may not be

predictive. That's fine. But what gives *you* the position or

authority to assume that all those who do predictive work, are

"doing more damage than good". Does not that assumption

make you arrogant?

The fact is, Cynthia, there is a place for predictive work, and indeed

the ability to do it correctly is an art form in itself, in fact, the

duty of the Vedic astrologer. Tropical astrology also has the scope

to forecast (predict), although the current emphasis among Neo-western

astrologers is a sort of quasi-psychological paradigm, or in others

words, the astrological symbols are tools to give some watered down

conception of the psyches of individuals. What this has done, is

create a whole generation of arm-chair, pseudo astrologer/psychologists,

who are equally if not more guilty of misleading clients as is someone

who makes bad predictions. Anyway, if there are some western

astrologers reading this, I am sorry if this offends you.

My point is that the essence of Jyotish, Vedic astrology, is

predictive. Every full time astrologer should be doing predictive

work on a daily basis. The blatant assumption that predictive

work is arrogant, because only God knows the future, is filled with your

personal bias and half-truth, and reveals that you know little about what

Jyotish really is in essence. While it is true, that only God knows

past, present, and future, the Jyotishi is given a window into the

future, and that is why Jyotish is called the "eye of the

Veda". A Jyotishi is someone who not only has learned

fully the scriptural dicta regarding how to interpret horoscopes, but is

also someone who has a 'Jnana-shakti", or empowerment due to

austerities, or years of spiritual practise. When a person

has performed his or her Sadhana under the guidance of a guru, for a very

long time, then he/she receives a "siddhi", or specific yogic

empowerment to read into the future by way of analyzing planetary

relationships. Further, it is not necessary to know

everything about the future, in order to guide a client properly.

But some things must for foretold, otherwise the astrologer is

failing in his duty.

Cases in point (these are actual cases): A client travels

frequently to and from the far east, as part of his work as a

businessman. Knowing of the tensions in Asia at this time, he wants

to know if - according to his chart - it will be dangerous to travel in

the next four months, or if he will be safe in doing so, and thus will

not have to jeopardize his business by not going. If you do

not do predictive work, how will you help such a person? Second

case: A client needs to have a dangerous surgery performed, but is

wary about the day, or time period, that the hospital has assigned for

it. He had to have a delicate heart surgery, and was in very

dangerous dasa periods during the time that the surgery was

scheduled. He could forestall it a month more, if planetary

positions allowed a safe procedure then. Without doing predictive

work with astrology, and telling him when to do the surgery, you could be

putting his life at risk.

My point is, that astrologers must master, or try to, the predictive art

of Jyotish. This skill at forecasting, will render a great service

to humanity. Ultimately, of course, God shall decide who gets, or

does not get what in their lives. The rare position of an

astrologer, is to serve the client by giving correct assessments of the

planetary effects to come, after which the client is better prepared to

make correct decisions. As K. N. Rao once told me personally,

up until the astrologer becomes proficient at predictive work, he or she

is doing "pop" astrology only.

I only wish that more astrologers

would look deeper than prediction and come to know what an honor it is to

help someone know their potential rather than their

limitations.

Here again your personal bias shows through. Why should

predictive work only give emphasis to someone's limitations? Can we

not foretell how great a person may become, by emphasizing the nature and

depth of strong yogas, and the dasas that will bring them to full

term? Further, someone may never reach their potential in one

lifetime, and you should be able to determine this, whether or not you

say that to the client. Instead, you have to counsel them

along the lines of spiritual philosophy, so that they can adjust to, and

accept the inevitable. Sometimes the best advice, may be to tell a

person that they simply cannot fulfill certain desires, and that they

should direct their focus into other, stronger areas that could be more

fruitful. Just because someone is a human, does not mean that they

can, or will, reach their full potential. Nor does everyone have a

mission in life. You should be able to determine (for yourself)

these things, moreover such key areas as longevity, the onset of disease

and its cure, or when windows of opportunity will be made available to

the native. This is predictive astrology. Of what use will

your glowing encouragement for someone be, if they cannot, or will not,

fulfill some particular desire, or what to speak if they are going to die

within a month or two? If someone has a terminal disease, will you

advise them to "use their free will" to avoid it? Or,

will you give them the courage to accept it? Without having at

least a glimpse of the future, and what is possible and what is

impossible, you will guide them wrongly, however well-intentioned you may

be.

My purpose in laboring over these points is certainly not to judge the

way you do astrology. You are probably very good at the work

that you do. What gets my goat, is your incorrect, al beit

uni-dimensional misconception of the true predictive essence of Jyotish,

and how the Jyotishi acquires the power and ability to predict, as well

as the purpose of prediction. Saying that predictive astrologers

are a pack of egotists, is about as offensive as it gets to those great

savants before us, as well as among us, who take this work

seriously.

Best wishes,

Robert

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit

<http://www.robertkoch.com>

or e-mail

rk (AT) robertkoch (DOT) com.

rk (AT) robertkoch (DOT) com

and

rkoch (AT) bendnet (DOT) com rkoch (AT) bendnet (DOT) com

February 10, 2002

Dear List

I get very disappointed when I see this kind of posting .I've seen a lot of

people who had a lot to contribute give up when opinions they present gets put

under this sort of attack . Particularly in this case Cynthia was asked what

her opinion was .

The question of free will and predestination is irresolvable but obviously life

is a combination of the two .If everything is predestined why do we advise the

client . If there is no free will why are we suffering karma . If Cynthia wants

to emphasise the free will side of the coin and advise her clients in terms of

identifying and developing their potentialities then I say tremendous stuff .If

others can identify techniques that lead to predictive sucess again tremendous

stuff .

Ok Lets move on

The egotist

Nicholas

-

Robert A. Koch

gjlist

Monday, February 11, 2002 1:52 PM

Re: [GJ] Astrology and Destiny - Cynthia

Dear Cynthia, At 11:35 PM 2/9/02 -0600, you wrote:

Dear Robert I think that it is of the utmost egotism for anyone to predict

another's future or destiny. That is up to that person and god or gods if you

like. I believe that when the astrologer confuses himself with the gods that

he can do more damage than good. I have had to do too much damage control for

clients who have been torn apart by an astrologer who had the audacity to

presume that he or she knew precisely what was in store for that person. That

is what is in my head and what is in my heart. I sincerely hope that you will

stop before you predict and take the time to feel. After all, some of those

ancient texts suggest that the best astrologer has a strong Venus, not a strong

Mercury. None of us will truly "know" the good or harm that we have done until

this life has come to an end. I bother with Jyotish not because I want to be

the god or the great one to tell another his or her destiny, but to be there as

they come to know it. I see my role as one who facilitates turning over the

rocks to see what is there and how is may be used. It is very presumptuous to

say that the great Jyotishis before us, such as the late B.V. Raman, K.S.

Krsnamurti, M.K. Gandhi, what to speak of sages Parasara and Jaimini and

others, are arrogant people who whose emphasis on predictive work in Jyotish is

the "utmost egotism". Your approach to astrology may not be predictive. That's

fine. But what gives *you* the position or authority to assume that all those

who do predictive work, are "doing more damage than good". Does not that

assumption make you arrogant? The fact is, Cynthia, there is a place for

predictive work, and indeed the ability to do it correctly is an art form in

itself, in fact, the duty of the Vedic astrologer. Tropical astrology also has

the scope to forecast (predict), although the current emphasis among Neo-western

astrologers is a sort of quasi-psychological paradigm, or in others words, the

astrological symbols are tools to give some watered down conception of the

psyches of individuals. What this has done, is create a whole generation of

arm-chair, pseudo astrologer/psychologists, who are equally if not more guilty

of misleading clients as is someone who makes bad predictions. Anyway, if

there are some western astrologers reading this, I am sorry if this offends

you. My point is that the essence of Jyotish, Vedic astrology, is predictive.

Every full time astrologer should be doing predictive work on a daily basis.

The blatant assumption that predictive work is arrogant, because only God knows

the future, is filled with your personal bias and half-truth, and reveals that

you know little about what Jyotish really is in essence. While it is true,

that only God knows past, present, and future, the Jyotishi is given a window

into the future, and that is why Jyotish is called the "eye of the Veda". A

Jyotishi is someone who not only has learned fully the scriptural dicta

regarding how to interpret horoscopes, but is also someone who has a

'Jnana-shakti", or empowerment due to austerities, or years of spiritual

practise. When a person has performed his or her Sadhana under the guidance

of a guru, for a very long time, then he/she receives a "siddhi", or specific

yogic empowerment to read into the future by way of analyzing planetary

relationships. Further, it is not necessary to know everything about the

future, in order to guide a client properly. But some things must for

foretold, otherwise the astrologer is failing in his duty. Cases in point

(these are actual cases): A client travels frequently to and from the far

east, as part of his work as a businessman. Knowing of the tensions in Asia at

this time, he wants to know if - according to his chart - it will be dangerous

to travel in the next four months, or if he will be safe in doing so, and thus

will not have to jeopardize his business by not going. If you do not do

predictive work, how will you help such a person? Second case: A client needs

to have a dangerous surgery performed, but is wary about the day, or time

period, that the hospital has assigned for it. He had to have a delicate heart

surgery, and was in very dangerous dasa periods during the time that the surgery

was scheduled. He could forestall it a month more, if planetary positions

allowed a safe procedure then. Without doing predictive work with astrology,

and telling him when to do the surgery, you could be putting his life at risk.

My point is, that astrologers must master, or try to, the predictive art of

Jyotish. This skill at forecasting, will render a great service to humanity.

Ultimately, of course, God shall decide who gets, or does not get what in their

lives. The rare position of an astrologer, is to serve the client by giving

correct assessments of the planetary effects to come, after which the client is

better prepared to make correct decisions. As K. N. Rao once told me

personally, up until the astrologer becomes proficient at predictive work, he

or she is doing "pop" astrology only.

I only wish that more astrologers would look deeper than prediction and come to

know what an honor it is to help someone know their potential rather than their

limitations.Here again your personal bias shows through. Why should predictive

work only give emphasis to someone's limitations? Can we not foretell how great

a person may become, by emphasizing the nature and depth of strong yogas, and

the dasas that will bring them to full term? Further, someone may never reach

their potential in one lifetime, and you should be able to determine this,

whether or not you say that to the client. Instead, you have to counsel them

along the lines of spiritual philosophy, so that they can adjust to, and accept

the inevitable. Sometimes the best advice, may be to tell a person that they

simply cannot fulfill certain desires, and that they should direct their focus

into other, stronger areas that could be more fruitful. Just because someone

is a human, does not mean that they can, or will, reach their full potential.

Nor does everyone have a mission in life. You should be able to determine (for

yourself) these things, moreover such key areas as longevity, the onset of

disease and its cure, or when windows of opportunity will be made available to

the native. This is predictive astrology. Of what use will your glowing

encouragement for someone be, if they cannot, or will not, fulfill some

particular desire, or what to speak if they are going to die within a month or

two? If someone has a terminal disease, will you advise them to "use their

free will" to avoid it? Or, will you give them the courage to accept it?

Without having at least a glimpse of the future, and what is possible and what

is impossible, you will guide them wrongly, however well-intentioned you may

be. My purpose in laboring over these points is certainly not to judge the

way you do astrology. You are probably very good at the work that you do.

What gets my goat, is your incorrect, al beit uni-dimensional misconception of

the true predictive essence of Jyotish, and how the Jyotishi acquires the power

and ability to predict, as well as the purpose of prediction. Saying that

predictive astrologers are a pack of egotists, is about as offensive as it gets

to those great savants before us, as well as among us, who take this work

seriously.

Best wishes,

Robert

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk (AT) robertkoch (DOT) com. rk (AT) robertkoch (DOT) com and

rkoch (AT) bendnet (DOT) com rkoch (AT) bendnet (DOT) comOm Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare

Krishna; Om Tat Sat:

gjlist-http://www.goravani.comYour use of

is subject to the

February 11, 2002

Nicholas,

At 02:54 PM 2/11/02 +1100, you wrote:

Dear

List

I get very disappointed when I see this kind of

posting .I've seen a lot of people who had a lot to contribute give up

when opinions they present gets put under this sort of attack .

Particularly in this case Cynthia was asked what her opinion was .

No, no, Nicholas. Cynthia's opinions came quite unsolicited,

and frankly quite surprisingly also. So what is taken as an

attack, is really the defense of the very essence of what you and I, and

what everybody else on this list is supposed to be learning.

The definitions of karmas, as well as what can be changed, and what

cannot be changed, lies at the very heart of Jyotish. If someone

believes that such a brilliant approach to human destiny, as is taught by

great rishis like Parasara and others, amounts to no more than the sport

of egos, then yes, that position should be taken to

task.

Best wishes,

Robert

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit

<http://www.robertkoch.com>

or e-mail

rk (AT) robertkoch (DOT) com.

rk (AT) robertkoch (DOT) com

and

rkoch (AT) bendnet (DOT) com rkoch (AT) bendnet (DOT) com

February 11, 2002

Dear List,

I have seen this type of curlicued discussions over and over on this

particluar list, and it simply amazes me. What do we have to lose but our

own sense of self-worth for making a mistake here? Surely the goodnes of a

person can't be measured by his opinion on an electronic bulletin board. The

ideas presented here are at times contrary to one another, and at times, very

complementary. That isn't what the list exists for, or maybe it is, who

knows but God!--the same God made both butterflies and mosquitoes and took

pleasure in working out the lives of each one.

Let it be known that I might represent more than just one person by

saying I appreciate ALL of you here, those well-versed jyotishis who

generously offer their insights and expertise, novices eagerly sitting

beneath the table to catch bits of understanding, and all who help to promote

Light in a dark moment of time.

I studied Western astrology for over 25 years. Now i wish i'd studied

Vedic astrology all those years. The important thing about each is that they

indicate an abiding fascination with life. Now who can argue that being

interested in life is a bad idea? I have a friend who sends me new age

messages his prayer group receives. maybe I do not join this group but I

always appreciate that this friend sends me his goodwill by sending these

readings to me...and i do read them!

If I have a flute and my friend has a horn and another person has a conch

shell, and we each are proud of the sound we can make, should we each find

the others' sound awful? It's possible we can create a syncopated

rhythm...at least, we can if we'd like to! Or we can all blow hard at the

same time...that's not always bad; we might notice which noise is prettiest,

which is loudest, which is most clear, which is most ethereal....and some of

us would prefer one sound to another, but God made us all capable of

discords....and a few are capable of overcoming them.

But Arjuna must fight! The battle quickens the blood, it is heady

stuff! Blow the trumpet, not the flute! String up the bow, Punarvasu! Oh,

you are a Passive nakshatra, so i have to stir you up to fight, then get up

Punarvasu, go hither and thither, find out what needs to be fixed and hurry

now, go fix it quickly!

Love to our list,

Carol

February 11, 2002

Robert

I swore I would not enter into this house of mirrors again but your post took me

so much aback...again, that I feel compelled to do so.

Here is how I remember this whole thing beginning.

There was a request to understand education in the chart.

I added a little post saying what I found in the charts of PhD's namely that

they frequently have a strong 12th house and Rahu tied to the Moon, or Mars or

some planet that indicates the intense study and time alone.

You took exception to that and sent a lengthy message saying that I had to be

wrong because if I were correct that you would have a PhD and you do not.

My response was that you may have exalted planets but you have free will to

choose to use them. Then it hit the fan.

You said you wanted to know what was in my head and I foolishly told you. THat

sounds like asking my opinion.

Your responses sound like attacks and judging from the private responses I have

gotten off list, this is not a new tactic for you.

What you call prediction, suggesting that a person with a serious health

condition wait until a better dasha I see as merely doing the job of an

astrologer. When you say the if the traits I see repeated in the charts of

PhD's (who I recall do not interest you so you have not studied them) are in

your chart then you would be destined to a PhD, I see that as predicting over

the person's will to use the talents as he might choose.

I have the classic yoga for a mathematician and my sweetie witha PhD in Math /

Statistics does not. Fortunately no astrologer told him that his Mercury was

debilitated and so he could not do math nor did one tell him that he lacked the

signature of a mathematician so he used his talents anyone. THis type of

telling someone what he should be by studying some yogas is the type of

astrology that I take issue with. You can try to run me out of town by

attempting to create a mob against me, but I won't go easily. I know that it

takes compassion as well as study to do this job well. I do not know how to

make this more clear. I also predict that you will twist my words because you

want me out of here. Fundamentalism in any form becomes dangerous when it will

not tolerate other ideas and opinions. Even if you run me off, you will still

have to live with the malice in your thoughts.

cynthia

-

Robert A. Koch

gjlist

Monday, February 11, 2002 4:33 PM

Re: [GJ] Astrology and Destiny - Cynthia

Nicholas, At 02:54 PM 2/11/02 +1100, you wrote:

Dear ListI get very disappointed when I see this kind of posting .I've seen a

lot of people who had a lot to contribute give up when opinions they present

gets put under this sort of attack . Particularly in this case Cynthia was

asked what her opinion was . No, no, Nicholas. Cynthia's opinions came quite

unsolicited, and frankly quite surprisingly also. So what is taken as an

attack, is really the defense of the very essence of what you and I, and what

everybody else on this list is supposed to be learning. The definitions of

karmas, as well as what can be changed, and what cannot be changed, lies at the

very heart of Jyotish. If someone believes that such a brilliant approach to

human destiny, as is taught by great rishis like Parasara and others, amounts

to no more than the sport of egos, then yes, that position should be taken to

task.

Best wishes,

Robert

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk (AT) robertkoch (DOT) com. rk (AT) robertkoch (DOT) com and

rkoch (AT) bendnet (DOT) com rkoch (AT) bendnet (DOT) comOm Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare

Krishna; Om Tat Sat:

gjlist-http://www.goravani.comYour use of

is subject to the

February 11, 2002

Cynthia,

Good, very good, Cynthia. I was waiting for some of that Mars! That's a

much more invigorating post than anything I've heard thus far.

Just to put things a bit straight:

First, I thought it was an interesting point of view, that PhD's could be

seen from the 12th house (even though I've never heard or read that

anywhere in books on either Jyotish, or western astrology). I never took

exception to it, apart from the fact that it didn't apply at all in my

chart, what to speak of many others with a 12th house emphasis that I've

seen. Anyway, I digressed, supposing that you had done some "original

research" that perhaps could be noted down for future reference.

Secondly: The thing that I took exception to, was the creation of a

wholesale, negative paradigm of predictive astrologers as self-serving

people with big egos. Even Parasara himself would fit into this category,

according to your definitions! I didn't hear any qualifications or

explanations for this huge jump to conclusions. Sure, there are as many

bogus predictive Jyotishis, as there are western/psycho

astrologers. Predictions have to be seen in the right context, and the

tools affording it, have to be placed in the proper hands. Without doing

that, simply saying that predictive astrology "does more harm than good",

without any qualifiers, provokes the anger in me, and thus the rift with

you.

Third: The GJ-list is not really a "Jyotish" list. You have to have

learned, lived, and assimilated Vedic/Hindu/Indian culture for a good

portion of your life before understanding what Jyotish is. This involves

understanding the meaning of knowledge received in a preceptorial lineage,

with due respect for the great gurus and sages who initiated the science

and envisioned it through their third eyes. The GJ-list (with all due

deference to my good friend and soul-brother Raghu Goravani) allows many

points of view, philosophies, astrologies, methodologies, "anything goes"

along with it all, but is not strictly for persons who want to do Jyotish

*exclusively*. If it were a 'strictly' Jyotish list, then you would not

have people like yourself complaining when someone wants to offer teachings

on, and explanations for, the essential elements of this science, namely

the this is PREDICTIVE ASTROLOGY. If "predictions" (without knowledge or

appreciation of what the word really means within the context of Jyotish)

strikes an intimidating or unfamiliar tone with you, then that is something

that you will have to process in time if you want to get certification with

ACVA, hang your sign as a Vedic astrologer, or add your two cents on a

Jyotish list.

Fourth and final: You don't have to worry about my "running you out", or

however you put it, as this will be the last time anybody will ever hear

anything from me on this list.

Adios amigos and amigas! Its been an interesting ride. And many thanks to

all the many of you friends who have extended your love, appreciations, and

support for me and my work in the past and present. (I'll see you all in

the appropriate time and dimension. Where we all will be, with whom, and

when, is already known and part of the script that was written since the

beginning of Creation). Have a good time! (I never meant to offend

anybody, and apologize if I did).

Love,

Robert

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty member SJVC and ACVA

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk. rk

February 12, 2002

Dear Robert ,

I felt the same way as you,

But i do relies on God to give answer to such thoughts rather than to attack myself.

Soon i was thinking on the lines i received a visitor who was a repeater after 1997.

Her words for Astrology and predictions were,

"Sir I visited you in 1997 for my settlement and marriage , you told that i will

not be married till 2002 and also give us many other predictions. (She was a

female with her mother)

I was so depressed at that time that i was thinking to commit suicide, your

words and the book you gave me (life and teaching of swami Vivekanand) shows

the path and courage to fight with the odds."

And what Cynthia has written must be due to her western background in

Astrology. You or me can not change the mind but could be instruments in the

hands of God. So it is always better to ignore.

Regards,

Inder Jit Sahni

-

Robert A. Koch

gjlist

Tuesday, February 12, 2002 4:03 AM