Education and Significators

February 8, 2002

Dear Cynthia,

Thank you for your interesting observations re: karakas and

education. I have a question on the following, however that

you wrote:

The notion of looking at the 4th

house for education is very far off the mark in my experience. I've

had the fortune to read for a number of folks with advanced degrees and

many have a strong Rahu union with Moon or Mars or some intense

combination to make it through all of the hoops one must jump

through.

You have to make the distinction between beginning, and advanced

education. If the 4th is not beginning education, then how do you

account for the 2nd being the house of knowledge? Jupiter's

karakatwa of the 2nd gives sufficient logic to support the scriptural

assertions that the 2nd (11th from the 4th) has to do with knowledge, and

the 4th thus has to do with beginning education. The fruit of the

beginning levels, is educational degrees, or advanced levels of

education. Also, Mercury is one of two karakas for the 4th

(beginning education), whereas Jupiter is the karaka for the 5th (higher

education), and the 2nd (the fruits, or endpoint, of

education).

A lesson in Argalas comes in here. Argala, or intervention

(favorable or unfavorable), comes as a result of benefics/malefics

respectively being in the 2nd, 11th, or 4th from a

sign. Thus conceptually, the 5th is the 2nd from the

4th, meaning that higher education (Jupiter is karaka of the 5th), is the

next evolution from basic education (4th, karaka Mercury).

Similarly the fruits, or gains of initial education, is the 2nd (natural

karaka is Jupiter), which being in the 11th from the 4th, forms natural

Argala to the 4th. Similarly, according to the principle of

"bhavat bhavam", the 5th from the 5th, i.e. the 9th, also rules

higher education, and its karaka is Jupiter.

Your views are appreciated and welcome....

Best wishes,

Robert

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit

<http://www.robertkoch.com>

or e-mail

rk (AT) robertkoch (DOT) com.

rk (AT) robertkoch (DOT) com

and

rkoch (AT) bendnet (DOT) com rkoch (AT) bendnet (DOT) com

February 8, 2002

Dear Robert

I simply have not see the 5th to manifest that strongly as the 12th in the case of PhDs.

Do you have some examples that I can look at? I do not doubt the theory, I

simply have not seen it in practice.

I can understand the concept that if one does not have a solid 4th house there

is no way he can manifest a higher education.

Still there is a huge difference in temperament between someone who attains a

PhD from a serious university and one who attains a degree in order to get a

job. There is a huge difference in the charts of attorney's who must gain

great knowledge to practice law and that of a person who specializes in a filed

and works in academia or even in high-level research. This is the group I am

talking about. For them, it is more of a 12th house matter.

Why do you have difficulty with this as a concept? What have you seen in the

charts of PhDs? I'll admit that I have only seen those that I have come in

contact with. I see nodal contacts to planets that deal with the mind over and

over again. I find that this is indicative even more than the houses of the

person's intense focus and willingness to direct his or her life toward it.

I welcome continued dialogue on this as I have never seen this mentioned in

astrological texts but see it again and again.

cynthia

-

Robert A. Koch

gjlist

Friday, February 08, 2002 9:08 PM

[GJ] Education and Significators

Dear Cynthia, Thank you for your interesting observations re: karakas and

education. I have a question on the following, however that you wrote:

The notion of looking at the 4th house for education is very far off the mark in

my experience. I've had the fortune to read for a number of folks with advanced

degrees and many have a strong Rahu union with Moon or Mars or some intense

combination to make it through all of the hoops one must jump through.You have

to make the distinction between beginning, and advanced education. If the 4th

is not beginning education, then how do you account for the 2nd being the house

of knowledge? Jupiter's karakatwa of the 2nd gives sufficient logic to support

the scriptural assertions that the 2nd (11th from the 4th) has to do with

knowledge, and the 4th thus has to do with beginning education. The fruit of

the beginning levels, is educational degrees, or advanced levels of education.

Also, Mercury is one of two karakas for the 4th (beginning education), whereas

Jupiter is the karaka for the 5th (higher education), and the 2nd (the fruits,

or endpoint, of education). A lesson in Argalas comes in here. Argala, or

intervention (favorable or unfavorable), comes as a result of benefics/malefics

respectively being in the 2nd, 11th, or 4th from a sign. Thus conceptually,

the 5th is the 2nd from the 4th, meaning that higher education (Jupiter is

karaka of the 5th), is the next evolution from basic education (4th, karaka

Mercury). Similarly the fruits, or gains of initial education, is the 2nd

(natural karaka is Jupiter), which being in the 11th from the 4th, forms

natural Argala to the 4th. Similarly, according to the principle of "bhavat

bhavam", the 5th from the 5th, i.e. the 9th, also rules higher education, and

its karaka is Jupiter. Your views are appreciated and welcome....

Best wishes,

Robert

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk (AT) robertkoch (DOT) com. rk (AT) robertkoch (DOT) com and

rkoch (AT) bendnet (DOT) com rkoch (AT) bendnet (DOT) comOm Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare

Krishna; Om Tat Sat:

gjlist-http://www.goravani.comYour use of

is subject to the

February 9, 2002

Dear Cynthia,

For Phd's and Research related activites the 8H is of paramount

importance, especially in chart of knowledge and related activities,

known as ChaturVimsaamsa or simply D-24!

The 8H typically also has huge AshtakaVarga points for such

individuals and the typical planet to occupy the 8H will be Saturn

denoting hard-work.

During the time when such a person is engaged in his PhD, he will

have influences of both 8H & 12H, apart from other normal factors.

One simple example is that of Shri KN Rao, who is great astrologer

and a very hard-working one at that. Although he does not have any

PhD's, he pursued Astrology with a determination & work ethic that

would put the best PhD students to shame!

In his D-24, his 8H is occupied by I think Saturn and has high

AshtakaVarga points!

Other factors that indicates a hard-working PhD, are presence &

activation of Tapaswi Yoga(Saturn, Ketu & Venus), Strong 8H in D-1, D-

24 and possibly D-10!

Regards

Narayan

Regards

Narayan

gjlist, "cynthia novak" <c.a.novak@w...> wrote:

> Dear Robert

>

> I simply have not see the 5th to manifest that strongly as the 12th

in the case of PhDs.

>

> Do you have some examples that I can look at? I do not doubt the

theory, I simply have not seen it in practice.

>

> I can understand the concept that if one does not have a solid 4th

house there is no way he can manifest a higher education.

>

> Still there is a huge difference in temperament between someone who

attains a PhD from a serious university and one who attains a degree

in order to get a job. There is a huge difference in the charts of

attorney's who must gain great knowledge to practice law and that of

a person who specializes in a filed and works in academia or even in

high-level research. This is the group I am talking about. For

them, it is more of a 12th house matter.

>

> Why do you have difficulty with this as a concept? What have you

seen in the charts of PhDs? I'll admit that I have only seen those

that I have come in contact with. I see nodal contacts to planets

that deal with the mind over and over again. I find that this is

indicative even more than the houses of the person's intense focus

and willingness to direct his or her life toward it.

>

> I welcome continued dialogue on this as I have never seen this

mentioned in astrological texts but see it again and again.

>

> cynthia

> -

> Robert A. Koch

> gjlist

> Friday, February 08, 2002 9:08 PM

> [GJ] Education and Significators

>

> Dear Cynthia,

>

> Thank you for your interesting observations re: karakas and

education. I have a question on the following, however that you

wrote:

>

> The notion of looking at the 4th house for education is very

far off the mark in my experience. I've had the fortune to read for

a number of folks with advanced degrees and many have a strong Rahu

union with Moon or Mars or some intense combination to make it

through all of the hoops one must jump through.

>

> You have to make the distinction between beginning, and advanced

education. If the 4th is not beginning education, then how do you

account for the 2nd being the house of knowledge? Jupiter's

karakatwa of the 2nd gives sufficient logic to support the scriptural

assertions that the 2nd (11th from the 4th) has to do with knowledge,

and the 4th thus has to do with beginning education. The fruit of

the beginning levels, is educational degrees, or advanced levels of

education. Also, Mercury is one of two karakas for the 4th

(beginning education), whereas Jupiter is the karaka for the 5th

(higher education), and the 2nd (the fruits, or endpoint, of

education).

>

> A lesson in Argalas comes in here. Argala, or intervention

(favorable or unfavorable), comes as a result of benefics/malefics

respectively being in the 2nd, 11th, or 4th from a sign. Thus

conceptually, the 5th is the 2nd from the 4th, meaning that higher

education (Jupiter is karaka of the 5th), is the next evolution from

basic education (4th, karaka Mercury). Similarly the fruits, or

gains of initial education, is the 2nd (natural karaka is Jupiter),

which being in the 11th from the 4th, forms natural Argala to the

4th. Similarly, according to the principle of "bhavat bhavam", the

5th from the 5th, i.e. the 9th, also rules higher education, and its

karaka is Jupiter.

>

> Your views are appreciated and welcome....

>

> Best wishes,

> Robert

>

> =====================================

> Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

> Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA

> Phone: 541-318-0248

> visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

> rk@r... rk@r... and

> rkoch@b... rkoch@b...

>

> Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat

> : gjlist-@e...

>

> Terms of

Service.

February 9, 2002

Dear Cynthia,

At 10:13 PM 2/8/02 -0600, you wrote:

an understand the concept that if

one does not have a solid 4th house there is no way he can manifest a

higher education.

Still there is a huge difference in temperament between

someone who attains a PhD from a serious university and one who attains a

degree in order to get a job. There is a huge difference in the

charts of attorney's who must gain great knowledge to practice law and

that of a person who specializes in a filed and works in academia or even

in high-level research. This is the group I am talking about.

For them, it is more of a 12th house matter.

Why do you have difficulty with this as a concept?

What have you seen in the charts of

PhDs?.............

I suppose if you have sufficient charts to support your view, then you

are - and should - believe in this theory. Sometimes that happens,

that what is seen in practise, may not be the classical view.

Anyway, I will digress here, as education, degrees, etc., is not a topic

that I am particularly interested in, and thus do not have a lot of

charts and data at hand. I will say this, however: In my chart, I

have a Raja-yoga involving exalted Mercury in the 12th house of my chart,

and the yoga being aspected and reinforced by yogakaraka Saturn from the

10th (Libra lagna). According to your second definition, i.e.

nodal contact, I have exalted Rahu aspecting Mercury from the 8th

also. So shouldn't that, according to your definitions, make me a

PhD in something? Well, I did quite well in high school, but

dropped out of college in the first year, for the sake of joining my

guru's ashram. I didn't leave that environment until I was 42,

after which I became a full time, professional astrologer. In

my experience, and seeing the charts of 12th house emphasis, they rarely

take to formal education that strongly, but rather pursue spiritual or

occult knowledge, or life in an ashram or temple. Thus, there

should be some adaptation to your principles, in accordance with the

basic nature of the 12th house as described in classical texts.

Best wishes,

Robert

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit

<http://www.robertkoch.com>

or e-mail

rk (AT) robertkoch (DOT) com.

rk (AT) robertkoch (DOT) com

and

rkoch (AT) bendnet (DOT) com rkoch (AT) bendnet (DOT) com

February 9, 2002

Dear Robert,

Thank you so much for bringing this broad picture on this interesting issue, and

(educative, as always) your analysis: if I may say so, it's not only well

explained analysis, but also a great reminder of importance of having the whole

chart in mind- or, to use the old saying: "The same fire melts the butter and

cooks the egg". I am curious to hear now about your experience: if the same

"intense" combination of Rahu and Mars, if not well fortified by 4th, 5th, 9th

hose/Mercury, Jupiter, may indicate bad (and dangerous) result- as I do have a

feeling that might be the case......

I seems to me that you sent us a "warning" of that kind- Is that correct? In

any event, it's good to take Cynthia's observation in studying the charts- I

have a feeling that Cynthia just wanted to bring this to our attention,

isolated for the sake of conciseness, and I also wish if she would explain her

observations in more details ( as you did with in your brief analysis)

Thanks,

Anna

February 9, 2002

Dear Robert

Ahhh your post is indeed a reflection of EXALTED Rahu and EXALTED Mercury <big

grins>

I do not believe that the chart MAKES anyone a PhD nor does an EXALTED anything

make you anything. THat is where our difference lies. I am a pragmatist and

believe in free will rather than determinism. I now understand why it is so

important to you that the ancient texts be the final source of information.

sincerely cynthia

just a humble astrologer in practice

-

Robert A. Koch

gjlist

Saturday, February 09, 2002 12:35 PM

Re: [GJ] Education and Significators

Dear Cynthia, At 10:13 PM 2/8/02 -0600, you wrote:

an understand the concept that if one does not have a solid 4th house there is

no way he can manifest a higher education. Still there is a huge difference in

temperament between someone who attains a PhD from a serious university and one

who attains a degree in order to get a job. There is a huge difference in the

charts of attorney's who must gain great knowledge to practice law and that of

a person who specializes in a filed and works in academia or even in high-level

research. This is the group I am talking about. For them, it is more of a 12th

house matter. Why do you have difficulty with this as a concept? What have you

seen in the charts of PhDs?.............I suppose if you have sufficient charts

to support your view, then you are - and should - believe in this theory.

Sometimes that happens, that what is seen in practise, may not be the classical

view. Anyway, I will digress here, as education, degrees, etc., is not a topic

that I am particularly interested in, and thus do not have a lot of charts and

data at hand. I will say this, however: In my chart, I have a Raja-yoga

involving exalted Mercury in the 12th house of my chart, and the yoga being

aspected and reinforced by yogakaraka Saturn from the 10th (Libra lagna).

According to your second definition, i.e. nodal contact, I have exalted Rahu

aspecting Mercury from the 8th also. So shouldn't that, according to your

definitions, make me a PhD in something? Well, I did quite well in high

school, but dropped out of college in the first year, for the sake of joining

my guru's ashram. I didn't leave that environment until I was 42, after which

I became a full time, professional astrologer. In my experience, and seeing

the charts of 12th house emphasis, they rarely take to formal education that

strongly, but rather pursue spiritual or occult knowledge, or life in an ashram

or temple. Thus, there should be some adaptation to your principles, in

accordance with the basic nature of the 12th house as described in classical

texts.

Best wishes,

Robert

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk (AT) robertkoch (DOT) com. rk (AT) robertkoch (DOT) com and

rkoch (AT) bendnet (DOT) com rkoch (AT) bendnet (DOT) comOm Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare

Krishna; Om Tat Sat:

gjlist-http://www.goravani.comYour use of

is subject to the

February 9, 2002

Hi Cynthia,

At 03:26 PM 2/9/02 -0600, you wrote:

Dear Robert

Ahhh your post is indeed a reflection of EXALTED Rahu

and EXALTED Mercury <big grins>

I do not believe that the chart MAKES anyone a PhD nor does

an EXALTED anything make you anything. THat is where our difference

lies. I am a pragmatist and believe in free will rather than

determinism. I now understand why it is so important to you that

the ancient texts be the final source of information.

This raises an interesting question: if pre-determination (as reflected

by strong or weak factors in the chart) were not a fact, or not such an

issues, then what do we need astrology for? :-)

Just a friendly inquiry from another pragmatist!

Best wishes,

Robert

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit

<http://www.robertkoch.com>

or e-mail

rk (AT) robertkoch (DOT) com.

rk (AT) robertkoch (DOT) com

and

rkoch (AT) bendnet (DOT) com rkoch (AT) bendnet (DOT) com

February 9, 2002

Dear Cynthia,

You've made me quite confused now, with the statements you wrote bellow. What

the purpose for research related to transits, nakashtra qualities, or any other

astro. issue, in general would be, if you say that it's everything "free will".

Besides, free will and determinism on one side, and pragmatism on the other,

being completely different things, are not mutually exclusive.

Not much can we do unless we are "given" a direction, symbolically represented

in our natal charts- that we

cannot choose... Can I make my deb. Moon exalted (or, have experiences of an

exalted one) exercising my free will? The only think I can to with later is to

accept, live through it, not make it worse, trying not to create bad karma,

etc... What the role of astrologer would be if he doesn't recognize that? To

make people with difficult charts feel guilty for not being able to erase

difficult placements=experiences, and those with good ones overly proud about

their accomplishment in the world, thus possibly instructing them to create

(even) worse karma by being less emphatetic to those less fortunate than

themselves (believing that others are "just bad", or chose to be where they

are, and loosing valuable opportunities to express GRATEFULNESS by being

compassionate). I've noticed that as soon as I passed adolescence: that people

DO have their destinies (karma) and realized that we are all "in the same

boat", to help each other. That brought astrology in my life. What I've seen

working with clients as a psychologist, definitely CONFIRMED that our lives are

predominately DETERMINED- which doesn't release us from responsibility for our

action!! On the contrary. In my practice I gave up lengthy therapy approach-

being pragmatist myself, for a "pragmatic" approach: help people "weather the

storm", feel empathy and support in their difficult periods (what doshas are

for, aastrlogy in general, if not for fulfilling our karmas, creating new

etc.?), accept them without a judgement..etc.

That "positive thinking" theory is "two ages sword"- it's kind of "political"

thing, IMO. If the time is sad for you and me, time for mourning, pushing with

"positive thinking" shallow theory can only exasperate the problem.

(my /strong/ opinion, should I say?)

And you also said that you've noticed that Mars/Rahu contacts are indeed often

present in charts of those with high educational degrees. Did they "create"

that contact themselves? And it's (among other things) the power

GIVEN to them, that pushes them into that direction, and they just use it for

the mentioned purpose. Not everyone is meant to be PhD or Guru with advanced

understanding (in my feeling the two are equal), nor to be born in wealthy

family, nor....etc. If one's life purpose simply is not that, but something

else, one will "go" and be supported, drawn to different experiences.. Just

fine- but false ego/socially conditioned/ makes people respect more one life

path than another, while, in fact both are equally worth, being part of miracle

we call life.

Sorry dear listers for my long message.

Cynthia, I wish if you could expand on this "evergreen" issue.

Thanks,

A.

February 9, 2002

Dear Robert

I don't need astrology. I do not see it as deterministic. There are traits and

trends. I was merely responding to your statement that if the qualities I saw

in a group of charts was valid then you would have a PhD. My response to that

is that you have free will.

To me the chart is a whole group of often subtle traits and talents. What they

are ultimately used for depends upon individual. I even believe that we have a

destiny, I just do not think that astrology is god and so astrologers will not

know what a person's destiny is. We can talk about traits and talents, but

what a person does with them as well as how he works with his difficulties is

up to him. Here, I think astrology offers its richest gifts. Helping another

unwrap the package he was born with...not telling him what he is to be based

upon the ego and the filters that every astrologer has because we are all

ultimately human evenif we temporarily for it.

cynthia

-

Robert A. Koch

gjlist

Saturday, February 09, 2002 3:56 PM

Re: [GJ] Education and Significators

Hi Cynthia, At 03:26 PM 2/9/02 -0600, you wrote:

Dear Robert Ahhh your post is indeed a reflection of EXALTED Rahu and EXALTED

Mercury <big grins> I do not believe that the chart MAKES anyone a PhD nor

does an EXALTED anything make you anything. THat is where our difference lies.

I am a pragmatist and believe in free will rather than determinism. I now

understand why it is so important to you that the ancient texts be the final

source of information.This raises an interesting question: if pre-determination

(as reflected by strong or weak factors in the chart) were not a fact, or not

such an issues, then what do we need astrology for? :-) Just a friendly

inquiry from another pragmatist!

Best wishes,

Robert

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk (AT) robertkoch (DOT) com. rk (AT) robertkoch (DOT) com and

rkoch (AT) bendnet (DOT) com rkoch (AT) bendnet (DOT) comOm Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare

Krishna; Om Tat Sat:

gjlist-http://www.goravani.comYour use of

is subject to the

February 9, 2002

Dear ?

Would you give me a name? I do not know to whom I am responding.

I think that you made huge leaps about me and my approach as an astrologer.

Perhaps you are responding to someone else.

I will try to address your emotional response.

Dear Cynthia,

You've made me quite confused now, with the statements you wrote bellow. What

the purpose for research related to transits, nakashtra qualities, or any other

astro. issue, in general would be, if you say that it's everything "free will".

[never said that]

Besides, free will and determinism on one side, and pragmatism on the other,

being completely different things, are not mutually exclusive.

Not much can we do unless we are "given" a direction, symbolically represented

in our natal charts- that we

cannot choose... Can I make my deb. Moon exalted (or, have experiences of an

exalted one) exercising my free will?

[no but your perceptions, Moon, can shift to develop those traits that you were

not born with. It sounds as if you have developed compassion and a strong

sense of purpose. Is the debilitated Moon the part of you that is responding

and feeling betrayed? perhaps, but in time you may find that the initial

fearful response can be transformed into wisdom or detachment and

understanding. There, that is how I see that one can experience from the

standpoint of a debil. Moon and transform it with patience and tolerance and

time to be shift perspective.]

The only think I can to with later is to accept, live through it, not make it

worse, trying not to create bad karma, etc...

[i'm sorry that your experience is to simply endure the debil. Moon. From your

post it sounds as if you are really working with it.

I have seen debil. Moon folks have lasting loving relationships and be

successful. The difference between peace and pain is right between ones ears.

That learned, you can use what you have, not simply endure it.]

What the role of astrologer would be if he doesn't recognize that? To make

people with difficult charts feel guilty for not being able to erase difficult

placements=experiences,

[these are your words not mine, I wonder where you got that I believe this or assume it]

and those with good ones overly proud about their accomplishment in the world,

thus possibly instructing them to create (even) worse karma by being less

emphatetic to those less fortunate than themselves (believing that others are

"just bad",

[again, your words not mine...your perceptions of my approach not my approach]

or chose to be where they are, and loosing valuable opportunities to express

GRATEFULNESS by being compassionate). I've noticed that as soon as I passed

adolescence: that people DO have their destinies (karma) and realized that we

are all "in the same boat", to help each other. That brought astrology in my

life. What I've seen working with clients as a psychologist, definitely

CONFIRMED that our lives are predominately DETERMINED- which doesn't release us

from responsibility for our action!! On the contrary. In my practice I gave up

lengthy therapy approach- being pragmatist myself, for a "pragmatic" approach:

help people "weather the storm", feel empathy and support in their difficult

periods (what doshas are for, aastrlogy in general, if not for fulfilling our

karmas, creating new etc.?), accept them without a judgement..etc.

{why would you assume otherwise for me?}

That "positive thinking" theory is "two ages sword"- it's kind of "political"

thing, IMO. If the time is sad for you and me, time for mourning, pushing with

"positive thinking" shallow theory can only exasperate the problem.

(my /strong/ opinion, should I say?)

{again, this is not about be but an argument you are having with someone else

that is projected onto me}