I'm for LIBRA asc.

[Guest guest]

> What Wendy writes is very sound, logical Jyotish. First of all, if

the

> lord of the lagna also becomes the lord of the Moon sign (Shubha-

pati), and

> is in exaltation, it uplifts the native regardless of what house it

is

> in.

 

Robert,

 

I strongly disagree. Venus is exalted in name only because it

occupies one of the worst three houses. All through the classics you

get the statement that if the lord of a house occupies the 6th, the

8th orthe 12th, the affairs of the house become destroyed, or that

the effects are feeble. Exaltation won't lift an ascendent from such

a position to the point of being George Harrison.

 

The ascendent is the basis of the horoscope, and I don'tsee any

sound,logical astrology. I see that you all are stretching things.

 

Secondly, as Wendy says, the dispositor Jupiter, from the 9th,

aspects

> the lagna and 10th lord Moon,

 

The dispositor of the Moon-sign lord aspecting the Moon is not the

same as the lord of the Moon sign aspecting the Moon. The dispositor

is not stressed like this in the classic literature.

 

>From that point onwards, Jupiter aspects the ascendent as a benefic

from the ninth, but he owns terrible houses. Everyday fare- a couple

of great strokes in favor, a couple of awful things against. Nothing

in 3rd and 6th lord Jupiter to carry the ascendent to the heights of

being George Harrison.

 

SNIP

 

> * Next point, divisional charts: Parasara never meant to teach the

> elaborate system of vargas, and then say that you should just

forget about

> it, and read the rasi chart alone

 

Of course, but the varga chartsare sub divisions of the main, they

get their existence from the main, not vice versa. We aren't supposed

to exaggerate the significance or strength of a type of significator

which is secondary to the birth chart.

 

(please excuse my departure from your

> opinions on this Wendy and Dharmapada, it is plain and simple,

Parasari

> astrology that we are doing here). If there is doubt about the

rasi

> lagna, vargas will help you.

>

> Re: Navamsa: Parasara says, that if the Sun is exalted in the rasi,

yet

> debilitated in the Navamsa, Raja-brashta yoga occurs, i.e. the

destruction

> of Raja-yoga. Now, if the Navamsa were unimportant as you say

Dharmapada,

> why does the Sun's debilitation in it as above, cancel Raja-yoga in

the

> chart, even though it occupies an exalted Rasi position?

 

I don't say that the navamsha is umimportant. I can see that if the

planet is exalted in the mainchart, that its debilitation in the

navamsha would take the wind out of its sails. What I actually do is

quote Dr. Raman in context to the effect that when the indication is

well-defined in rashi, " the navamsha may be shelved."

 

A case in point- you go to sodasamsha and talk about luxuries. Venus

is in the sixth house, so any acquisition of luxuries would have to

be acquired through a bank loan, or financed, or compromise the

individual in some meaningful way. Even then, only to an extent

because the evil house position won't make the man George Harrison.

But you go to the sub divisions and blow them all out of proportion

on the plea of Parashara devoting a chapter to them, and me

supposedly saying that they flat out count.

 

No sub division is going to have the strength to counter the fact

that the forth lord occupies the evil eighth, enough to give the

person such overwhelming property karma, property karma of the very

rich. Even a nice karaka ( Mars ) might mitigate that to some degree,

notwithstanding the actual Saturn-forth lord periods, but a karaka

could only mitigate within the devastating parameters of the forth

lord in the eighth, without any help in terms of aspects even. Do you

propose to go to the divisional charts to rescue Libra lagna from the

obvious incongruency in property karma?

 

What subdivision will jump up and give wealth through music when the

ascendent lord Venus sits in the house of debts?

 

I have studied the books of Dr. Raman for a couple of decades and the

way he interprets. I have studied The Astrological Magazine for a

couple of decades, too, including the way in which veteran

astrologers go about their thought process as they explain

astrological rationale, plus I have my own humble experience to draw

from, and I will say this infront of the whole list- you do not

interpret the way that they do. You minimize the main indicators in

favor of secondary and tertiary indicators and you go off on a

tangent. Maybe most of the list members don't have enough experience

to pick this out, maybe some don't want to bother fussing with you.

The whole trick to interpretation is to consider the indications by

giving them their proper weight and importance, but you seem to be

very unable to distinguish. Your way of interpretation is a departure

from all the great writers that I have been exposed to.

 

I am sorry to even have to say these things on the list, but if one

makes statements on the list, one pretty much has to sink or swim

based on the merit of one's logic. I do not wish to flame, I just

want to stick up for standard, traditional astrology.

 

Given the way that you pull things off the wall, I don't think that

we have much more to say to each other.

 

Now that the question of Virgo lagnahasbeen brought to hisattention,

however, I would be curious to know if Sanjay Rath might reconsider.

It is no sin to have been fed the wrong birth info. I have seen the

Ramans be very gracious about their mistakes in writing.

 

Dharmapada

[Guest guest]

Dharmapada,

 

Thanks for your opinions, although all the insults and expletives are

uncalled for.

 

The fact is, you haven't answered my original challenges to your proposed

Virgo asc. for George Harrison. Instead, you give your arguments to

support a chart which was calculated with the wrong time zone to

start with, and then try to justify it with argument. Apart from the

fact, when someone participating in a debate starts to take things

personally, and levy personal attacks to another, whatever so-called logic

he puts forth after that loses its purpose. In other words, people start

dropping off the list, which could have been avoided if the persons

offering argument did so with respect for the other. So, instead of

running the risk that you will get more uncontrolled, and speak with yet

greater vitriol, I will just say these things, and forget this whole subject:

 

1. Note this carefully so I don't have to repeat myself: Parasara stressed

divisional charts for the simple reason, that anybody born within an

approximate 2 hour time frame on the same date, and same place as someone

else, will have the same *rasi* chart. Divisional charts thus show the

fine-tunings of difference between one chart and another, of the same

rising sign. So does this mean, for example, that everybody born within 2

hours or so of Bill Gates, in Seattle, WA on his date of birth (and who

therefore has Gemini rising) is going to be a billionaire? Does everybody

with Gemini rising, and Venus/Saturn/Sun in Libra in the 5th house become a

billionaire? And similarly with George Harrison: a reasonable estimate

would be that on the day of GH's birth in Liverpool, within 2 hours or so

of his birth, there could have been about 40 children born, and they would

all likely have the same rising sign. So do they all become vastly wealthy

and famous? If you do not consider the finer, harmonic divisions, you will

not be able to tell which one is which from the rasi chart alone.

 

* Further to this point: (and this has been discussed so many times, that

its almost a waste of time to repeat it again). How do you justify very

different destinies in twins, born 15 or 20 minutes apart, and having the

same lagna? If not with varga charts, YOU CANNOT SAY HOW THE RASI CHARTS

ALONE WILL REFLECT THE DIFFERENT DESTINIES.

 

* An actual case in point: I have two friends, both born on the same day,

in different states, yet having the same Taurus lagna, and sign/house

placements of planets. One is female, the other male. The female works

for a whole foods cooperative, and makes a very modest salary. The male,

is a self-employed entrepreneur, who is independently wealthy, and has

holdings in three states. WHY CAN YOU NOT DECIPHER THESE DIFFERENCES IN

DESTINY, FROM THE RASI CHARTS ALONE? If you follow Raman's advice, "and

shelve the Navamsa" you're going to come up with very mediocre astrology at

best. You can do better than that, Dharmapada - I am very surprised.

 

Answer these questions adequately, Dharmapada, and I will be satisfied. I

will also overlook your insults, which, to be honest, I am very surprised

are coming from you, a devotee of Srila Prabhupada, and thus a Vaishnava.

 

Best wishes,

Robert

 

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk. rk and

rkoch rkoch

[Guest guest]

gjlist, "Robert A. Koch" <rkoch@b...> wrote:

> Dharmapada,

>

> Thanks for your opinions, although all the insults and expletives

are

> uncalled for.

 

Robert,

 

I didn't say any expletives to you. Nordid I insult you, I just

complained about the way you go to divisional charts and emphasize

what I feel is secondary.

 

 

> The fact is, you haven't answered my original challenges to your

proposed

> Virgo asc. for George Harrison.

 

I sent you a whole long posting in response. I answered your points

all the way down to the bottom, and even addressed some things that

Sanjay Rath had written, because you had mentioned his page. ( I am

still interested in hearing from him ) How can you say that I didn't?

Why don't you explain to me how he had such unusualproperty karma

with the lord of the house of property in the worst house of the

horoscope, which " destroy " the affairs of any house whose lord goes

there?

 

I've spoken at length with two nurses who have worked in maternity

wards. One of them told me that the birth times are not so perfectly

recorded. This takes away from the usefulness of divisional charts in

the first place because the divisional ascendents move on and off the

horizon within a matter of minutes.

 

Another one told me that a spurt of children can be born during the

same time period, then during a different period, maybe even during

the same night, only a few births spaced apart. This might account

for the fact that special births occur without having hundreds of

people running around with identical karma. Another thing is that

there is free will which comes into play- this individualizes the

lives of people born under the same lagna. And, of course, there are

divisional influences, too. I don't deny their role, although I don't

exaggerate their role, which is what I feel that you do.

 

Anyway, each list member has born testimony to our exchange.

Hopefully they have studied our presentations, the way we argue,

even, and will arrive at their own conclusions.

 

Dharmapada

 

Instead, you give your arguments to

> support a chart which was calculated with the wrong time zone to

> start with, and then try to justify it with argument. Apart from

the

> fact, when someone participating in a debate starts to take things

> personally, and levy personal attacks to another, whatever so-

called logic

> he puts forth after that loses its purpose. In other words, people

start

> dropping off the list, which could have been avoided if the persons

> offering argument did so with respect for the other. So, instead

of

> running the risk that you will get more uncontrolled, and speak

with yet

> greater vitriol, I will just say these things, and forget this

whole subject:

>

> 1. Note this carefully so I don't have to repeat myself: Parasara

stressed

> divisional charts for the simple reason, that anybody born within

an

> approximate 2 hour time frame on the same date, and same place as

someone

> else, will have the same *rasi* chart. Divisional charts thus

show the

> fine-tunings of difference between one chart and another, of the

same

> rising sign. So does this mean, for example, that everybody born

within 2

> hours or so of Bill Gates, in Seattle, WA on his date of birth (and

who

> therefore has Gemini rising) is going to be a billionaire? Does

everybody

> with Gemini rising, and Venus/Saturn/Sun in Libra in the 5th house

become a

> billionaire? And similarly with George Harrison: a reasonable

estimate

> would be that on the day of GH's birth in Liverpool, within 2 hours

or so

> of his birth, there could have been about 40 children born, and

they would

> all likely have the same rising sign. So do they all become vastly

wealthy

> and famous? If you do not consider the finer, harmonic divisions,

you will

> not be able to tell which one is which from the rasi chart alone.

>

> * Further to this point: (and this has been discussed so many

times, that

> its almost a waste of time to repeat it again). How do you justify

very

> different destinies in twins, born 15 or 20 minutes apart, and

having the

> same lagna? If not with varga charts, YOU CANNOT SAY HOW THE RASI

CHARTS

> ALONE WILL REFLECT THE DIFFERENT DESTINIES.

>

> * An actual case in point: I have two friends, both born on the

same day,

> in different states, yet having the same Taurus lagna, and

sign/house

> placements of planets. One is female, the other male. The female

works

> for a whole foods cooperative, and makes a very modest salary. The

male,

> is a self-employed entrepreneur, who is independently wealthy, and

has

> holdings in three states. WHY CAN YOU NOT DECIPHER THESE

DIFFERENCES IN

> DESTINY, FROM THE RASI CHARTS ALONE? If you follow Raman's

advice, "and

> shelve the Navamsa" you're going to come up with very mediocre

astrology at

> best. You can do better than that, Dharmapada - I am very

surprised.

>

> Answer these questions adequately, Dharmapada, and I will be

satisfied. I

> will also overlook your insults, which, to be honest, I am very

surprised

> are coming from you, a devotee of Srila Prabhupada, and thus a

Vaishnava.

>

> Best wishes,

> Robert

>

> =====================================

> Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

> Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA

> Phone: 541-318-0248

> visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

> rk@r... rk@r... and

> rkoch@b... rkoch@b...

[Guest guest]

Hi Robert and Dharmapada,

 

As a silent member of the peanut gallery, I just wanted to say how

educational your debate has been, rancor notwithstanding of course.

Without going into any specfics, I did just wanted to echo Robert's basic

point about the importance of twins charts and what they tell us about

reading the rashi chart. This is something I have been thinking about more

carefully in the past month or two. I recently discovered the birth data

of a couple of friends of mine, who are fraternal twins in their thirties,

born 30 minutes apart. Both are Libra rising and have identical rashi

charts, with the exception of having different nakshatras rising. And yet

despite the similarity of their charts, their lives are very different.

One has a child and is married while the other doesn't. One is more

intellectual, while the other is an avid sportsman, and so on. When you

stop and think about the whole idea of twins, it really forces you to

rethink how we often overrely on the rashi chart. It is the starting point

for chart interpretation, but one has to go beyond it into the vargas or

one is doomed to make mistakes. Having said that, I think there is no

foolproof way to read varga charts and much work needs to be done to

systematize their interpretation. But my point here is that we shouldn't

force life outcomes out of a rashi chart. Sometimes, outcomes will be seen

in a varga chart, sometimes in the rashi. If GH's life doesn't exactly fit

into his Libra chart, then we shouldn't go tossing it out. We should

accept the stated birth time as fact -- especially if it is well documented

as his is -- and go through the varga charts to see if they make sense.

Only after we've done that, can we make an informed decision about the

correctness of a birth time.

 

Thanks to both of you for your enthusiasm in carrying on this discussion.

 

Chris

 

 

At 02:42 PM 12/6/01 -0800, Robert A. Koch wrote:

>Dharmapada,

>

>Thanks for your opinions, although all the insults and expletives are

>uncalled for.

>

>The fact is, you haven't answered my original challenges to your proposed

>Virgo asc. for George Harrison. Instead, you give your arguments to

>support a chart which was calculated with the wrong time zone to

>start with, and then try to justify it with argument. Apart from the

>fact, when someone participating in a debate starts to take things

>personally, and levy personal attacks to another, whatever so-called logic

>he puts forth after that loses its purpose. In other words, people start

>dropping off the list, which could have been avoided if the persons

>offering argument did so with respect for the other. So, instead of

>running the risk that you will get more uncontrolled, and speak with yet

>greater vitriol, I will just say these things, and forget this whole subject:

>

>1. Note this carefully so I don't have to repeat myself: Parasara stressed

>divisional charts for the simple reason, that anybody born within an

>approximate 2 hour time frame on the same date, and same place as someone

>else, will have the same *rasi* chart. Divisional charts thus show the

>fine-tunings of difference between one chart and another, of the same

>rising sign. So does this mean, for example, that everybody born within 2

>hours or so of Bill Gates, in Seattle, WA on his date of birth (and who

>therefore has Gemini rising) is going to be a billionaire? Does everybody

>with Gemini rising, and Venus/Saturn/Sun in Libra in the 5th house become a

>billionaire? And similarly with George Harrison: a reasonable estimate

>would be that on the day of GH's birth in Liverpool, within 2 hours or so

>of his birth, there could have been about 40 children born, and they would

>all likely have the same rising sign. So do they all become vastly wealthy

>and famous? If you do not consider the finer, harmonic divisions, you will

>not be able to tell which one is which from the rasi chart alone.

>

>* Further to this point: (and this has been discussed so many times, that

>its almost a waste of time to repeat it again). How do you justify very

>different destinies in twins, born 15 or 20 minutes apart, and having the

>same lagna? If not with varga charts, YOU CANNOT SAY HOW THE RASI CHARTS

>ALONE WILL REFLECT THE DIFFERENT DESTINIES.

>

> * An actual case in point: I have two friends, both born on the same day,

>in different states, yet having the same Taurus lagna, and sign/house

>placements of planets. One is female, the other male. The female works

>for a whole foods cooperative, and makes a very modest salary. The male,

>is a self-employed entrepreneur, who is independently wealthy, and has

>holdings in three states. WHY CAN YOU NOT DECIPHER THESE DIFFERENCES IN

>DESTINY, FROM THE RASI CHARTS ALONE? If you follow Raman's advice, "and

>shelve the Navamsa" you're going to come up with very mediocre astrology at

>best. You can do better than that, Dharmapada - I am very surprised.

>

>Answer these questions adequately, Dharmapada, and I will be satisfied. I

>will also overlook your insults, which, to be honest, I am very surprised

>are coming from you, a devotee of Srila Prabhupada, and thus a Vaishnava.

>

>Best wishes,

>Robert

>

>=====================================

>Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

>Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA

>Phone: 541-318-0248

>visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

>rk. rk and

>rkoch rkoch

>

>

>

>

>Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat

>: gjlist-

>

>

>

>Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

>