I'm for VIRGO asc.

[Guest guest]

I have read convincing comments on the other forums as well. However,

I would choose the VIRGO ascendant and not Libra.

 

This debate clearly portrays the famous joke:

 

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN ASTRONOMER AND AN ASTROLOGER?

 

An astronomer is someone who LOOKS UP into the sky.., and never finds

what he's looking for. An astrologer is someone who LOOKS DOWN into

his chart..., and always finds what he's looking for!

 

 

 

I could satisfactorily explain (to myself) everything from the Virgo

lagna: ESPECIALLY THE DHANA YOGAS for great wealth AND RAAJ YOGAS for

fame. Virgo generally gives timid, reserved or shy characters. For

explaining health issue the SUN & Ketu in 6th is more convincing.

Sun+Ketu is also a a 'saintly' combination. Rahu is 12th shows one is

attracted to "foreign cultures and religions". The asc. lord + 10th

lord Mercury in Trikona 5th house of entertainment and creativity is

much more convincing for SUCCESSFUL career, with dispositor Saturn in

house of Lakshmi luck. Exalted Venus (2nd + 9th lord) for Mahalaxmi

yoga aspecting the ascendant for name/fame and charisma is also more

convincing. 11th lord moon for easy and quick gains and profits in

2nd dhana house, and aspected by retrograde (strong) Jupiter from

10th. 5th lord Saturn in 9th signifies strong poorvapunya, but its

aspect on sun+ketu in 6th shows again the health issues., especially

worsened since saturn transited into taurus. He was a 'mangalik' and

Mars' aspect on 7th and 7th lord Jupiter; and kalatrakaraka Venus in

7th siginifies troubles IF married early (1st marriage in 1965/66?)

or IF married without matching horoscope with another mangalik.

 

and so on...., and so on.....etc... I can find to my satisfaction all

answers from Virgo lagna.

 

 

 

best regards

 

RAJAN

************

[Guest guest]

Dear Rajan,

 

Regarding Harrison's chart:

 

At 11:14 AM 12/5/01 +0000, you wrote:

>I have read convincing comments on the other forums as well. However,

>I would choose the VIRGO ascendant and not Libra.

 

Are you satisfied using a chart which is calculated for the wrong Time

Zone? And, should we accept such a chart, just because it "seems to

fit"? This makes astrology recreational at best, and not a serious

science. This is not acceptable, and it is because of this kind of

*conscious* neglect of correct birth data, that astrology is far from being

accepted in the scientific community. Thus, instead of delighting in what

you *think* fits, try to see why the chart calculated for the correct birth

data [with, of course, adjustments to the TOB for rectification] fits the

events and circumstances of George Harrison's life. Otherwise, we are only

doing "Pop astrology", a term used by K.N. Rao.

 

Best wishes,

Robert

 

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk. rk and

rkoch rkoch

[Guest guest]

Robert,

 

It is not the way that you are presenting it at all. That Libra chart

is so far off that some warning bells have to go off in our heads.

the ascendent lord in the sixth and the tenth lord in the first is

everday fare.

 

Divisional charts can be very indicative and helpful, but I don't

know of any school of thought that says that they can strongly

override indications of theascendent and ascendent lord.

 

An error in regards to birth time is not so impossible. We see in

various reference books and software comments made about local

observance being spotty inspite of legislation. It isn't hard to

imagine a mistake in regards to recording his birth time.

 

It's not a matter ofastrology being recreational. Events have to

correspond to generally accepted astrological principles, and we

can't go running off looking for off-the-wall justification in some

secondary divisional chart when things don't correspond. Anyway, if

things correspond in the divisional charts, then they have to

correspond in the rashi chackra also, from ascendent.

 

Dharmapada

 

 

 

 

 

gjlist, "Robert A. Koch" <rkoch@b...> wrote:

> Dear Rajan,

>

> Regarding Harrison's chart:

>

> At 11:14 AM 12/5/01 +0000, you wrote:

> >I have read convincing comments on the other forums as well.

However,

> >I would choose the VIRGO ascendant and not Libra.

>

> Are you satisfied using a chart which is calculated for the wrong

Time

> Zone? And, should we accept such a chart, just because it "seems

to

> fit"? This makes astrology recreational at best, and not a serious

> science. This is not acceptable, and it is because of this kind of

> *conscious* neglect of correct birth data, that astrology is far

from being

> accepted in the scientific community. Thus, instead of delighting

in what

> you *think* fits, try to see why the chart calculated for the

correct birth

> data [with, of course, adjustments to the TOB for rectification]

fits the

> events and circumstances of George Harrison's life. Otherwise, we

are only

> doing "Pop astrology", a term used by K.N. Rao.

>

> Best wishes,

> Robert

>

> =====================================

> Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

> Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA

> Phone: 541-318-0248

> visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

> rk@r... rk@r... and

> rkoch@b... rkoch@b...

[Guest guest]

Dharmapada,

 

At 07:19 PM 12/5/01 +0000, you wrote:

>Robert,

>

>It is not the way that you are presenting it at all. That Libra chart

>is so far off that some warning bells have to go off in our heads.

>the ascendent lord in the sixth and the tenth lord in the first is

>everday fare.

 

I am still waiting for your response to my previous questions re: the Virgo

lagna. Secondly, if you are using a chart with the wrong time zone, then

you have to re-calibrate the events-to-dasas rectification that you did

previously. First resolve the issue of the time zone. If you still think

its Virgo, then you are going to have to adjust events to fit a time which

was over one hour earlier than that which was recorded. Anyway, once you

respond to my questions, I will give you a lot of reasons why Libra is the

lagna, and not at all "so far off" as you say. Further, use of divisional

charts *especially in rectification* are not "off the wall" practises, in

fact advanced astrologers insist on varga charts as the final say in

specific matters all the time. There are many, many things that you could

never justify in the birth chart, which are as plain as day in the Navamsa

especially. Don't join that small faction of astrologers who like to throw

out varga charts, or their significance - it is an oversight that will not

help your astrology at all. For convenience, here are my previously quoted

questions on Virgo lagna. Please answer them first:

 

1. GH was a loner, in fact recluse by nature. He did not like the crowds

and fanfare, even when the Beatles were at the height of their fame and

success. How do you see this tendency from the Virgo rising chart, with so

many planets in angles, lagna lord in the 5th, and exalted Venus in the 7th?

 

2. He went into a deep and sustained depression following the Beatles's

break-up, up until around 1976. How do you see that in the Virgo rising

chart?

 

3. You give the late degrees of Virgo rising (29, I believe), and

with it, Dhana/Laksmi yogas to support GH's great wealth. Then, how do you

explain Jupiter's being in the 8th in Navamsa, in company with Rahu and

debilitated Saturn? Also, 2nd lord Venus in the 12th of the Navamsa does

not support great wealth at all (just the opposite)?

 

4. How do you explain that GH had only one child, with benefic lagna lord

in the 5th, 5th lord in 9th, and 2nd and 9th lord exalted in the 7th? He

would have had several children, in fact a large family, with these

combinations.

 

5. Longevity: First set of rules: (1) if the lord of lagna, lord of 10th,

and lord of 8th, are all strong and well-positioned, one gets Purnayu [long

life, 72 and beyond]; (2) if two out of three are strong, then middle term

is obtained; and (3) if one or all three are weak and ill-placed, then

short life is obtained. Strength in this sense is scene through angular or

trinal positions, exalted/own/friendly signs, etc. In the proposed Virgo

chart, all three are strong, i.e. lagna and 10th lord Mercury in a friendly

sign in the 5th; and 8th lord Mars in a kendra aspected by Jupiter. This

should have given life at least up to the beginning of the long term, i.e.

72 years. Why did he die at age 58?

 

6. Next set of longevity determinations: According to Parasara and

Jaimini, three pairs of factors determine longevity: (1) Lord of lagna, and

lord of 8; (2) Moon, and Saturn; and (3) lagna and Hora lagna. Cardinal

signs = long life; fixed signs = short life; and (3) dual signs = medium

life. If both factors in a set are the same, then the requisite term is

given (i.e. if both factors are dual, it equals medium life, if both are

fixed, it equals short life, etc.). If in each set, there are differing

factors, then the third one gives the longevity. For example, if the Moon

is in a cardinal sign, and Saturn is in a fixed sign, then the third factor

(dual) becomes the term, namely medium life. So each set, will give a term

of longevity: If all, or two out of three agree, then that agreeing term

becomes the term of longevity. If all three are different, then the term

given by the lagna and Hora lagna determines the longevity. There are

some modifying factors, but anyway, this is the system.

 

So in GH's chart, note the following sets:

 

Lord of lagna (is placed in) = cardinal

Lord of 8 = dual = short term

 

Moon (sign of) = cardinal

Saturn = fixed = medium term

 

Lagna = dual

Hora lagna (Taurus) = fixed = long term

 

So, since all three conclusions are different, the term is as per the lagna

and Hora lagna, which is long term. So GH, with a Virgo chart, should have

had Purnayu, or long term of longevity. This conclusion agrees with the

first longevity analysis given above in paragraph 5.

 

 

 

Best wishes,

Robert

 

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk. rk and

rkoch rkoch

[Guest guest]

> I am still waiting for your response to my previous questions re:

the Virgo

> lagna. Secondly, if you are using a chart with the wrong time

zone, then

> you have to re-calibrate the events-to-dasas rectification that you

did

> previously. First resolve the issue of the time zone. If you

still think

> its Virgo, then you are going to have to adjust events to fit a

time which

> was over one hour earlier than that which was recorded.

 

Robert,

 

Maybe he was born earlier, or maybe double daylight time was being

observed.That site on the history of daylight time observance in

Britain mentioned that some establishments may have stayed on the

same clock year round, or at least the owner mentioned that to me in

his e-mail.

 

Answers coming up!

 

DD

[Guest guest]

Dear Robert

Here are some possibilities to your questions

>

> 1. GH was a loner, in fact recluse by nature. He did not like the crowds

> and fanfare, even when the Beatles were at the height of their fame and

> success. How do you see this tendency from the Virgo rising chart, with so

> many planets in angles, lagna lord in the 5th, and exalted Venus in the

7th?

 

These are general personal characteristics of Virgos .It's even harder to

tally this with a Libra Lagna .For Libra Lagna the ascendent ,Moon and Sun

are all in positive outgoing signs .

 

The planets in quadrants and trines make for a public figure .

 

>

> 2. He went into a deep and sustained depression following the Beatles's

> break-up, up until around 1976. How do you see that in the Virgo rising

> chart?

 

The Jupiter period ends with Moon Bhukti (Moon is subject to Kemadrum Yoga)

,Mars Bhukti the most malefic planet for Virgos and then Rahu Bhukti which

is badly placed in the 12th . I think these Bhuktis correspond to the major

period of depression .

 

> 4. How do you explain that GH had only one child, with benefic lagna lord

> in the 5th, 5th lord in 9th, and 2nd and 9th lord exalted in the 7th? He

> would have had several children, in fact a large family, with these

> combinations.

 

Virgos tend to have a small number of children because the 5th house is

Capricorn a barren sign and the debilitation sign for Jupiter karaka for

children . I do also question the theoretical structure that good influences

on the indications for children makes for many children without

consideration of the quality of the children .For the rich and famous to

have well adjusted children is often a major accomplishment .

>

> 5. Longevity:

 

I'm not sure that these rules work quite as well in practise as presented

theoretically .There are a few weaknesses in longevity from the Virgo

perspective . Firstly Mars 8th Lord is in old age ,Saturn is debilitated in

Navamsa but crucially Saturn the 6th Lord of disease and natural karaka for

wasting diseases casts an almost exact aspect on the natal Sun in the

6th house .So 3 of the 4 main karakas for longevity for Virgos are all

weakened somewhat and therefore the longevity was not great .

 

Actually I agree that it is probably fairer to stick to the standard birth

time rather than move it forward 40 minutes and then say hey presto we have

a perfect fit . The Libra Lagna gives a reasonable fit to his life but the

Virgo Lagna is textbook material imho .

 

Best Wishes

Nicholas

[Guest guest]

Dear Dharmapada, Robert and Nicolas,

 

You may have all seen my post on the vedic astrology list last week with

regard to Motila Gandhi being GH's personal astrologer, at least in the

70's. There may be others, or another, that I know nothing about. But I know

that Mr. Gandhi was GH's personal astrologer then, and he was an

exceptionally talented Jyotishi with great knowledge. Also I know that at

that time Mr. Gandhi was in contact and working with GH with Jyotish on a

very regular basis and had a close relationship with him. If the statement

made about GH saying that he and his personal astrologer corrected the time

to 11:52:19 pm, is true, then as I said, I would think this a very accurate

time giving Libra Lagna, due to the absolute abilities and knowledge and

great talent of Mr. Gandhi. (This time is also less than a minute from the

times that Narasimha Rao rectified as well as Sanjay Rath's rectified chart

for GH.)

 

In response on the other list, Dharmapada, you mentioned that George was no

astrologer, so how could he decide? And we don't know if the astrologer who

sat with him knew of the two-hour war time. In response all I can tell you

is that Motila Gandhi was exceptional and certainly aware of all the

concerns to come to a correct birth time.

 

I'm too much a newbie to offer anything on my own to your good discussion of

the Lagna with the knowledge of those much more studied than I. I was just

hoping to give some light to the credibility of this corrected birth time in

the stated quote made by GH.

 

Hoping this is of some help,

 

Patrice

[Guest guest]

Patrice,

 

Nice points. I'll say that I can't know what was in the mind of

George H. nor in the mind of his astrologer, Mr. Gandhi. Had I been

there, I could have made sure that the points I bring up were

addressed.

 

Be that at it may, I have just brought up my points of consideration

in response to Robert's e-mail. At thispoint, all we can do is

discuss on the basis of astrological logic and individual merit of

argument.

 

Dharmapada

 

 

gjlist, "Patrice Curry" <patrice.curry@h...> wrote:

> Dear Dharmapada, Robert and Nicolas,

>

> You may have all seen my post on the vedic astrology list last week

with

> regard to Motila Gandhi being GH's personal astrologer, at least in

the

> 70's. There may be others, or another, that I know nothing about.

But I know

> that Mr. Gandhi was GH's personal astrologer then, and he was an

> exceptionally talented Jyotishi with great knowledge. Also I know

that at

> that time Mr. Gandhi was in contact and working with GH with

Jyotish on a

> very regular basis and had a close relationship with him. If the

statement

> made about GH saying that he and his personal astrologer corrected

the time

> to 11:52:19 pm, is true, then as I said, I would think this a very

accurate

> time giving Libra Lagna, due to the absolute abilities and

knowledge and

> great talent of Mr. Gandhi. (This time is also less than a minute

from the

> times that Narasimha Rao rectified as well as Sanjay Rath's

rectified chart

> for GH.)

>

> In response on the other list, Dharmapada, you mentioned that

George was no

> astrologer, so how could he decide? And we don't know if the

astrologer who

> sat with him knew of the two-hour war time. In response all I can

tell you

> is that Motila Gandhi was exceptional and certainly aware of all the

> concerns to come to a correct birth time.

>

> I'm too much a newbie to offer anything on my own to your good

discussion of

> the Lagna with the knowledge of those much more studied than I. I

was just

> hoping to give some light to the credibility of this corrected

birth time in

> the stated quote made by GH.

>

> Hoping this is of some help,

>

> Patrice

[Guest guest]

Dear Dharmapada,

 

You wrote:

 

>>>Nice points. I'll say that I can't know what was in the mind of

George H. nor in the mind of his astrologer, Mr. Gandhi. Had I been

there, I could have made sure that the points I bring up were

addressed.

 

Be that at it may, I have just brought up my points of consideration

in response to Robert's e-mail. At thispoint, all we can do is

discuss on the basis of astrological logic and individual merit of

argument.

________________

 

Thanks Dharmapada. Yes, and I'm enjoying and learning from this discussion

of GH's Lagna. Only wish my knowledge were already stronger and I could make

my own points.

 

My only reason for the posting about Mr. Gandhi is in hope that it will shed

some light on this as far as making conclusions about how reliable the

information is regarding GH's own view of his chart and the excellence of

his astrologer. This may help in giving some truth to the correct Lagna.

But, the on-going discussion on the basis you mention is great and very

valuable for all of us learning here.

 

Kind regards,

Patrice

[Guest guest]

Nicholas Wrote:

>> 1. GH was a loner, in fact recluse by nature. He did not like the crowds> and

fanfare, even when the Beatles were at the height of their fame and> success.

How do you see this tendency from the Virgo rising chart, with so> many planets

in angles, lagna lord in the 5th, and exalted Venus in the7th?<<These are

general personal characteristics of Virgos .It's even harder totally this with

a Libra Lagna .For Libra Lagna the ascendent ,Moon and Sunare all in positive

outgoing signs.

 

Dear All,

In anticipation of (gracious) permission, I'm sending a copy of this to

JyotishVidya also as there is a valuable lesson here for all...so hope you

don't mind my liberty :-)

 

The argument that GH innate (shy, reclusive) nature is only seen with Virgo

lagna fails when one considers the effect an isolated Moon has on the native's

innate nature.

There can be no doubt at all that he would certainly feel isolated and withdrawn

from all the success and hype that surrounded him...particularly so as Moon is

lord of 10th house. I'm sure he never felt comfortable with all the fame that

surrounded him...rather he would have felt somewhat detached (isolated) from it

all.

 

So how could an isolated 10th lord Moon (in lagna) bestow such fame on him at all?

 

Simple..."Kemadruma-Bhanga yoga" has lifted his status (name/fame) to dizzying heights.

1) With Jupiter aspecting Moon.

2) With Mercury in kendra to Moon.

 

We've all seen the power of "Neecha-Bhanga Yoga" to bring success...Prabhupada's

chart is just one example that comes to mind...in this same way

"Kemadruma-Bhanga Yoga" can empower Moon.

 

Best Wishes,Wendy

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Wendy Vasicek: Vedic

Astrologerhttp://welcome.to/Vedic Astrology/JyotishVidyawenvas (AT) dingoblue (DOT) net.au~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Guest guest]

Dear Wendy

Nice to hear from you again .Certainly feel free to send my postings to your

list although cross referencing lists often creates confusion since some

rs will not have the full thread . I did in my posting point out the

Kemadrum yoga that would give a reclusive nature . This would be compounded in

the case where the lagna was of a retiring type also . So possibly the kemadrum

yoga for Libra Lagna would give a shy nature although Lagna ,Moon and Sun are in

positive signs . However this is even more assured if the Lagna is of a reserved

type . Which again draws me to the conclusion of a textbook fit for Virgo and a

moderate fit for Libra .

 

Interestingly for the Libra advocates is the idea that Goravani once propounded

in relationship to the Moon being the karaka for actors/actoresses . He

described these people as introverts who live their lives in public .With Moon

on the Lagna for Libra ascendent we would have the same type of situation for

GH .

 

Cheers

Nicholas

 

 

 

-

Wendy Vasicek

gjlist

Cc: Jyotish Vidya

Thursday, December 06, 2001 1:43 PM

Re: [GJ] I'm for VIRGO asc.

Nicholas Wrote:

>> 1. GH was a loner, in fact recluse by nature. He did not like the crowds> and

fanfare, even when the Beatles were at the height of their fame and> success.

How do you see this tendency from the Virgo rising chart, with so> many planets

in angles, lagna lord in the 5th, and exalted Venus in the7th?<<These are

general personal characteristics of Virgos .It's even harder totally this with

a Libra Lagna .For Libra Lagna the ascendent ,Moon and Sunare all in positive

outgoing signs.

 

Dear All,

In anticipation of (gracious) permission, I'm sending a copy of this to

JyotishVidya also as there is a valuable lesson here for all...so hope you

don't mind my liberty :-)

 

The argument that GH innate (shy, reclusive) nature is only seen with Virgo

lagna fails when one considers the effect an isolated Moon has on the native's

innate nature.

There can be no doubt at all that he would certainly feel isolated and withdrawn

from all the success and hype that surrounded him...particularly so as Moon is

lord of 10th house. I'm sure he never felt comfortable with all the fame that

surrounded him...rather he would have felt somewhat detached (isolated) from it

all.

 

So how could an isolated 10th lord Moon (in lagna) bestow such fame on him at all?

 

Simple..."Kemadruma-Bhanga yoga" has lifted his status (name/fame) to dizzying heights.

1) With Jupiter aspecting Moon.

2) With Mercury in kendra to Moon.

 

We've all seen the power of "Neecha-Bhanga Yoga" to bring success...Prabhupada's

chart is just one example that comes to mind...in this same way

"Kemadruma-Bhanga Yoga" can empower Moon.

 

Best Wishes,Wendy

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Wendy Vasicek: Vedic

Astrologerhttp://welcome.to/Vedic Astrology/JyotishVidyawenvas (AT) dingoblue (DOT) net.au~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Om

Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat SatTo , send an email

to: gjlist-http://www.goravani.comYour use of

Groups is subject to the

[Guest guest]

Dear Nicholas,

 

Thanks for venturing to answer my questions. Here are my responses:

 

At 07:31 AM 12/6/01 +1100, you wrote:

>Dear Robert

>Here are some possibilities to your questions

> >

> > 1. GH was a loner, in fact recluse by nature. He did not like the crowds

> > and fanfare, even when the Beatles were at the height of their fame and

> > success. How do you see this tendency from the Virgo rising chart, with so

> > many planets in angles, lagna lord in the 5th, and exalted Venus in the

>7th?

>

>These are general personal characteristics of Virgos .It's even harder to

>tally this with a Libra Lagna .For Libra Lagna the ascendent ,Moon and Sun

>are all in positive outgoing signs .

 

Answering a characteristic such as the above through only the rising sign,

is too general. You are going to find, on the contrary, many Virgo rising

people who are just the opposite in nature. So we have to go deeper than

that. First of all, the key lies with the Sun/Ketu combination, but where

should the dispositor be? With that combination for Libra lagna, the

dispositor Saturn goes to the 8th, and aspects the Sun/Ketu also. This is

more satisfying to indicate this tendency, than if the dispositor were in

the 9th. There is more too, but this is my first answer for now.

 

>The planets in quadrants and trines make for a public figure .

>

> >

> > 2. He went into a deep and sustained depression following the Beatles's

> > break-up, up until around 1976. How do you see that in the Virgo rising

> > chart?

>

>The Jupiter period ends with Moon Bhukti (Moon is subject to Kemadrum Yoga)

>,Mars Bhukti the most malefic planet for Virgos and then Rahu Bhukti which

>is badly placed in the 12th . I think these Bhuktis correspond to the major

>period of depression .

 

Before you go into dasas, first indicate the *natal* tendency. If there is

not a natal tendency to some kind of karma, then it cannot happen during

any particular dasa/bhukti, regardless of how adverse it may be. If more

out of the Sun, Moon, Mercury, and the 5th house come under affliction,

then there will be the tendency toward depression. There is the Ra/Ke axis

on the 5th for Libra rising, aspected by Saturn, who disposits

Mercury. Mars forms Argala to the 5th also, by being in its

11th. Similarly, for the time I use -- 23:53:05 -- and -1 time zone, the

5th house has Rahu and Saturn in Navamsa, a very similar scenario.

 

> > 4. How do you explain that GH had only one child, with benefic lagna lord

> > in the 5th, 5th lord in 9th, and 2nd and 9th lord exalted in the 7th? He

> > would have had several children, in fact a large family, with these

> > combinations.

>

>Virgos tend to have a small number of children because the 5th house is

>Capricorn a barren sign and the debilitation sign for Jupiter karaka for

>children . I do also question the theoretical structure that good influences

>on the indications for children makes for many children without

>consideration of the quality of the children .For the rich and famous to

>have well adjusted children is often a major accomplishment .

 

I'm sorry, Nicholas, this is again too general. Cases in point: my father

was a Virgo ascending native, and he had three sons. One of my life-long

best friends, has Virgo rising, and she has 6 children: 4 girls, and 2

boys. There are countless other examples. The specific case lies, again,

in afflictions to the 5th house, which exist in the Libra rising chart, but

do not exist in the Virgo chart. In fact, a strong 5th and 9th house

exists in the Virgo chart, which would have made him very inclined toward

family life number one, and secondly, he would have had several children.

 

> > 5. Longevity:

>

>I'm not sure that these rules work quite as well in practise as presented

>theoretically .There are a few weaknesses in longevity from the Virgo

>perspective . Firstly Mars 8th Lord is in old age ,Saturn is debilitated in

>Navamsa but crucially Saturn the 6th Lord of disease and natural karaka for

>wasting diseases casts an almost exact aspect on the natal Sun in the

>6th house .So 3 of the 4 main karakas for longevity for Virgos are all

>weakened somewhat and therefore the longevity was not great .

 

The longevity comparisons as present previously, do work quite well. Try

researching with at least 20 deceased charts, and see how they work. this

takes some patience and perseverance, however, as there are variables which

can add or subtract one Kaksha (compartment) to the term of

longevity. Maharshi Jaimini also gives a number of very practical tests

for longevity, the most practical of which is the comparison based on three

pairs of: lord of lagna, and lord of 8; Hora lagna and lagna; and Saturn +

Moon. Try to work with these a bit on charts about which you are

certain. You will see the theoretical models work quite well.

 

Now, in Harrison's case, lord of lagna for Libra, is Venus, and is in a

dual sign; lord of 8 from the 8 is also dual, Jupiter (because the natural

lord of 8th, is the same as the lord of the lagna. So then, take the lord

of the 8th from the 8th, Jupiter). So one factor is dual, and the other

dual, gives medium life. Next, Hora lagna is fixed, Taurus, while lagna is

moveable, Libra. One moveable, and one fixed = medium life. And then,

Saturn is in a fixed sign, Ta, while the Moon is in a moveable

sign. Again, one fixed, and the other moveable, = medium life. So in all

three comparisons, there is medium life indicated. Thus the term of

longevity is clearly defined for GH, i.e. between the age of 36 and 72.

 

>Actually I agree that it is probably fairer to stick to the standard birth

>time rather than move it forward 40 minutes and then say hey presto we have

>a perfect fit . The Libra Lagna gives a reasonable fit to his life but the

>Virgo Lagna is textbook material imho .

 

Yes, you are right. Because we cannot enter into the subtleties of a

chart, or if a given chart is hard to decipher, that does not give us the

liberty to change the given birth time 40 minutes.

 

On another point: You will find many charts, of very successful, famous,

and gifted people, whose charts do not have glowing Laksmi and Raja yogas

according to the typical models. There are thus additional tools with

which to decide who is who. Not everybody with exalted Venus in the 7th

house, and strong trinal lords, is going to be a mega-millionaire of

extraordinary fame like GH. Jaimini and Parasara give some important clues

as to how to tell who is who. GH had an incredible rise to fame and

fortune within an 8 year period. The rest of his life was rather obscure,

he was depressed, he got divorced, he had differences with his colleagues,

he mostly lived in seclusion, and then finally died of throat cancer. For

him, life was not as charmed as our impression of it was. He has not a

neon sign of brilliance all his life, in fact for most of it, he was rather

ordinary. Astrologers should not try to retrofit a chart, to the internal

impressions they have of somebody. This will lead to error. It is better

to learn and implement as much of the Shastras and sutras as possible, in

order to get the clearest, unbiased picture.

 

Best wishes,

Robert

 

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk. rk and

rkoch rkoch

[Guest guest]

Wendy,

 

You see the Moon in the first house all the time without making the

person rich and famous. It would take more than the aspect of Jupiter

to give the Libra horoscope strength since thelagna lord occupies the

evil sixth, especially since Jupiter is the lord of awful houses.

Mercury in a kendra is everyday fare, also.

 

And what about the individual karmas that don't correspond at all to

the Libra chart, such as his property karma, or his karma for wealth?

the facts actually fit badly for Libra rising. How much can an

interpreter dance around?

 

It is hard to determine his rising sign by personality alone because

that is some thing hard top in down, especially since his Moon sits

in Libra. But Virgo does seem to fit him well.

 

Dharmapada

[Guest guest]

Robert,

 

I have to protest your statements below. You yourself have waxed so

general nowthat one can hardly discuss the point that you are saying.

Jaimini and Parashara do give us important clues, they are the

generally accepted principles of astrology. And the horoscopesof

therich and famous do correspond to them. Libra rising simply

disagrees " ugly " with Harrison's fame and stature in life because

of the lagna, with his financial karma and property karma.

 

You have now adopted the tone of the person who is losing the checker

game and lets his knee hit the table and knocks over the checker

board.

 

Isn't there anybody on the list who recognises the obvious

correspondence of lordship, house placement and sign placement in the

Virgo chart, and the impossible, almost comical shortcomings of the

Libra chart?

 

Speak up.

 

Dharmapada

 

 

 

 

> On another point: You will find many charts, of very successful,

famous,

> and gifted people, whose charts do not have glowing Laksmi and Raja

yogas

> according to the typical models. There are thus additional tools

with

> which to decide who is who. Not everybody with exalted Venus in

the 7th

> house, and strong trinal lords, is going to be a mega-millionaire

of

> extraordinary fame like GH. Jaimini and Parasara give some

important clues

> as to how to tell who is who. GH had an incredible rise to fame

and

> fortune within an 8 year period. The rest of his life was rather

obscure,

> he was depressed, he got divorced, he had differences with his

colleagues,

> he mostly lived in seclusion, and then finally died of throat

cancer. For

> him, life was not as charmed as our impression of it was. He has

not a

> neon sign of brilliance all his life, in fact for most of it, he

was rather

> ordinary. Astrologers should not try to retrofit a chart, to the

internal

> impressions they have of somebody. This will lead to error. It is

better

> to learn and implement as much of the Shastras and sutras as

possible, in

> order to get the clearest, unbiased picture.

>

> Best wishes,

> Robert

>

> =====================================

> Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

> Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA

> Phone: 541-318-0248

> visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

> rk@r... rk@r... and

> rkoch@b... rkoch@b...

[Guest guest]

Dharmapada,

Of course many people have Moon in first house.

 

>>You see the Moon in the first house all the time without making the person

rich and famous. It would take more than the aspect of Jupiter to give the

Libra horoscope strength since thelagna lord occupies the evil sixth,

especially since Jupiter is the lord of awful houses.<<

But how many have Moon's depositor enjoying exaltation whilst it's dispositor

aspects Moon from 9th house?

Many factors have come together to make this chart unique :-)

 

Please contemplate the significance of this Jupiter in terms of career.

Jupiter's moolatrikona sign is the 3rd house of fine arts...music, singing

etc., and contemplate also the significance of Jupiter's dispositorship of

exalted (lagnesh) Venus.

Then consider again the significance of this Jupiter's role (KBY) in uplifting

10th lord Moon.

 

This is not simply Moon in 1st house (aspected by Jupiter) giving rise to name

and fame...there are many unique features in this chart.

 

But, you know, the most convincing argument of all is GH own statement that his

birthtime is 23:52:19.....

 

One last observation before I withdraw from this discussion :-)

It is stated that the 4th house shows "endings" close of life, etc. I believe GH

was in LA when the end came. Please note 12th lord Mercury in 4th house.

According to my calculations he was running ME-SU-RA-ME at the time of his

passing...this supports the fact that the end came on foreign soil rather than

in his own land.

 

Best Wishes,Wendy

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Wendy Vasicek: Vedic

Astrologerhttp://welcome.to/Vedic Astrology/JyotishVidyawenvas (AT) dingoblue (DOT) net.au~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Guest guest]

gjlist, "Wendy Vasicek" <wenvas@d...> wrote:

> Dharmapada,

> Of course many people have Moon in first house.

>

> >>You see the Moon in the first house all the time without making

the

> person rich and famous. It would take more than the aspect of

Jupiter

> to give the Libra horoscope strength since thelagna lord occupies

the

> evil sixth, especially since Jupiter is the lord of awful houses.<<

>

> But how many have Moon's depositor enjoying exaltation whilst it's

dispositor aspects Moon from 9th house?

> Many factors have come together to make this chart unique :-)

 

Wendy,

 

But Venus is in the sixth, a very evil house. And the depositor of a

planet is just one thing. That is my complaint- One good thing, one

bad thing, and the chart stays within the realm of ordinary charts.

This is especially true when we are referring to the ascendent.

 

And look at Virgo- Vargottama ascendent, ascendent lord in a trine,

exalted-Venus-lord-of-a-trine aspecting the ascendent- the Virgo

chart is special, the Libra chart has nothing special going for it to

lift it up.

 

And then the individual karmas, like financial karma or property

karma.

 

I am beginning to hear logic which stretches things because there is

no way to justify Libra as his ascendent. One gets backed into a

corner.

 

Dharmapada

 

 

 

 

 

>

> Please contemplate the significance of this Jupiter in terms of

career. Jupiter's moolatrikona sign is the 3rd house of fine

arts...music, singing etc., and contemplate also the significance of

Jupiter's dispositorship of exalted (lagnesh) Venus.

> Then consider again the significance of this Jupiter's role (KBY)

in uplifting 10th lord Moon.

>

> This is not simply Moon in 1st house (aspected by Jupiter) giving

rise to name and fame...there are many unique features in this chart.

>

> But, you know, the most convincing argument of all is GH own

statement that his birthtime is 23:52:19.....

>

> One last observation before I withdraw from this discussion :-)

> It is stated that the 4th house shows "endings" close of life, etc.

I believe GH was in LA when the end came. Please note 12th lord

Mercury in 4th house. According to my calculations he was running ME-

SU-RA-ME at the time of his passing...this supports the fact that the

end came on foreign soil rather than in his own land.

>

> Best Wishes,

> Wendy

>

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> Wendy Vasicek: Vedic Astrologer

> http://welcome.to/Vedic Astrology/

> JyotishVidya

> wenvas@d...

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Guest guest]

Dharmapada,

 

You wrote:

 

>Robert,

>

>I have to protest your statements below. You yourself have waxed so

>general nowthat one can hardly discuss the point that you are saying.....

>

>You have now adopted the tone of the person who is losing the checker

>game and lets his knee hit the table and knocks over the checker

>board.

 

Now, Dharmapada - I am sorry that you're losing patience with this. But I

have to say, the above rhetoric is unnecessary.

 

>Isn't there anybody on the list who recognises the obvious

>correspondence of lordship, house placement and sign placement in the

>Virgo chart, and the impossible, almost comical shortcomings of the

>Libra chart

 

Alright then, please answer this question regarding lordships: George

Harrison's father made his living as a local bus driver. In Virgo rising,

the lord of the 9th is exalted Venus in the 7th. With that combination, he

should have been a dignitary, politician, university professor, lawyer, or

judge. Sun in 6th is fine, but then again dispositor Saturn in the sign

of exalted 9th lord doesn't fit the picture at all.

 

In the Libra rising chart, 9th lord is Mercury in the 4th (good

correspondence, eh?), with 4th lord in 8th, and 8th lord in the 6th. This

puts the profession of the father very much in tune with a menial

worker. Especially note exalted Venus (vehicles), in the 10th from the

9th, i.e. Pisces, which is equal to the 6th from the lagna.

 

Dharmapada, you still haven't answered my questions as to how (1) George

Harrison had only one child from the Virgo rising chart; and (2) why he had

mediocre longevity according to that chart. Why also would he have had

the propensity to smoke, a habit which finally killed him, with *only

benefics influencing*, for the most part, the 2nd house, and 2nd lord in

exaltation?

 

>Speak up.

>

>Dharmapada

 

I did! Now its your turn - but without all the insults, please. Thank you!

 

Best wishes,

Robert

 

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk. rk and

rkoch rkoch