Guest guest Posted October 22, 2001 Report Share Posted October 22, 2001 Chris I wrote: > >Or rather you should say, most people don't learn them [rasi dasas] at > all. This is a tragedy, given that a plethora of naksatra as well as > rasi dasas were > >taught by the Maharishis, beginning with Parasara, then Jaimini, and > >expounded upon by others. Such things as Argala, Arudha padas, rasi > >drishti, etc. are as plain as day in the BPHS, and so why are they so > >neglected? You wrote: >Probably out of laziness mostly, but also I'd like to think because for >some astrologers they are unnecessary. The point of astrology isn't to >learn everything that's ever been written about it. It's to make correct >predictions and give people useful insights in their own lives. If some >astrologers can accomplish that knowing only a few techniques, then they >don't have to bother with anything else. For those gifted souls, less is >more. But the fact is, by experience, most astrologers do *not* make correct predictions, or do not venture to predict, using only the very basic techniques. You in fact, made the point that the results of Vimsottari were too variable to correctly rectify birth times based on known events. So, you choose to use transits alone. The fact is, that different dasa systems, are vital and particular to certain charts, in certain circumstances. If astrologers do not try to learn the different instances in which specific dasas should be used, then yes I would agree, they are being lazy. Lets be realistic - Vimsottari dasa, although recommended for general usage, does not always work, does it? Vimsottari, being a lunar naksatra dasa, suggests the perceptions or responses to specific environmental factors. Rasi dasas, on the other hand, show the pre-determined physical impact of those factors on the native. So here, you may expect to get one result from Vimsottari, yet not see it through a rasi dasa, and vice versa. This is why sage Parasara taught both, as a balanced view on the possible events that may confront the native. The overriding point here is, that technique was taught by the canons of Vedic astrology for a reason - taking only a part of the message, and rejecting the rest, does not enable astrologers to gain ground in their predictive ability. > In fact, that is likely to be the reason why Jaimini wrote a > >separate treatise - namely, that astrologers even in Parasara's day > >neglected such important principles, and Jaimini wanted to bring them to > >light. Sanjay Rath as brought these to the fore, as a representative of > >the Jyotish parampara of Sri Achyuta, and now you can see the magic of > >using them. > >I'm afraid I don't see the magic of them. I see a proliferation of >techniques that will make it nearly impossible to adjudicate competing >truth claims. One interesting consequence of this debate and others like >it, is that it is nearly impossible to figure out which approach to a chart >is the correct one if the participants are using different parameters and >instruments. How can we tell if the astrologer who uses parallax corrected >Moon dashas is more accurate than the one who does not? How can we tell if >KP practitioner is right in his assertion that a native is Libra rising >while the Parasharan astrologer insists on Virgo? We can't because they >are using different words, even different languages to state their cases. If you have an open mind to the different techniques, then you will not see them as competing truth claims. The realization we get from this, is that the "truth" is far too complex and multi-faceted to put into very basic categories. We have, for example, 12 signs, 12 houses, and 9 planets (including the nodes). By themselves, they are pretty limited when it comes to a satisfying definition of the "truth" which has as much diversity as life itself. There are different dimensions upon which the truth exists as well, in addition to possible levels of manifestation of karma, and these are where the Arudhas of both signs *and* planets come in. Then, there are predictive problems. How, for example, do you explain through Vimsottari dasa and transits alone, that a person could (1) being doing very well financially at some point in life; (2) could be having a child at the same time: yet, (3) his mother dies, he gets in a car accident and looses his eyesight, gets audited by the IRS, and further gets an Anthrax-laden letter in the mail? Sounds pretty hypothetical, but professional astrologers confront cases like this all the time. The point is thus, that I have not seen any astrologer yet who, with only Vimsottari, transits, and basic parameters alone, could give a reasonable account of such variables in a person's life. >Maybe that's all they can do, and then leave it up to the free market of >mailing lists to decide who is more persuasive. That will invariably >happen anyway. I'm not lamenting the presence of different ways of doing >things here. That's inevitable. But when we're trying to see which is the >correct lagna, I guess we really need to be using the same tools. >Competing truth claims require a certain rigour when it comes to method. >If not, then we have to go back to first principles. Like in the >neverending debate on parallax, how many cases would we have to compare >before deciding which is better? But life is short and who has the time >to spend on stuff like that? If someone has gone further into the tools of the art, then he certainly should use them. Because another astrologer chooses to begin and end with the fundamentals, then his lack of clarity or analytical veracity is due to his own laziness, as you say, in the matter of fully mastering Jyotish. If a surgeon, for example, goes to perform an operation, and his colleague hands him a kitchen fork and a butter knife, how will he even imagine performing the task before him? If someone could do brain surgery, for example, with a butter knife, then he is a gifted genius, who the average surgeon should not try to imitate. Anyway, if you learn the way of using technique, as it was fashioned to be used in particular circumstances, then you will have more to work with and will not feel intimidated by competing methods, in fact you will see that all methods are complimentary in the final analysis. For example, only twice, did the topic of the Navamsa come up in all these debates for Prabhupada: I raised it a while back, and now Sanjay Rath did as well. Should not the chart of Dharma be important in ascertaining the correct lagna of a great saint? In practice, you will find that *most* astrologers neglect to use the Navamsa, in fact some purposefully ignore it, what to speak of other vital principles. My approach to teaching, and to expending time and energy on this list, is to get astrologers out of passivity in their study, and to embrace the science in its entirety. I push myself to do the same. Then resolutions of lagna questions such as this, could be a lot easier. Anyway, thanks for your conversation on this. I am going to back off from the list for a while, in order to prepare two lectures for the ACVA conference in Nov. I will check in from time to time, however. Best wishes, Robert ===================================== Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA Phone: 541-318-0248 visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail rk. rk and rkoch rkoch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2001 Report Share Posted October 23, 2001 Robert, I feel very strongly about Vimshottari dasha, but I am not against other dasha systems. I always do Vimshottari, Yogini and Chara. I feel that the other two support Vimshottari very well, maybe Yogini less. What are your experiences in relation to sthira? Does sthira have to be done with chara? Dharmapada > But the fact is, by experience, most astrologers do *not* make correct > predictions, or do not venture to predict, using only the very basic > techniques. You in fact, made the point that the results of Vimsottari > were too variable to correctly rectify birth times based on known > events. So, you choose to use transits alone. The fact is, that > different dasa systems, are vital and particular to certain charts, in > certain circumstances. If astrologers do not try to learn the different > instances in which specific dasas should be used, then yes I would agree, > they are being lazy. Lets be realistic - Vimsottari dasa, although > recommended for general usage, does not always work, does it? Vimsottari, > being a lunar naksatra dasa, suggests the perceptions or responses to > specific environmental factors. Rasi dasas, on the other hand, show the > pre-determined physical impact of those factors on the native. So here, > you may expect to get one result from Vimsottari, yet not see it through a > rasi dasa, and vice versa. This is why sage Parasara taught both, as a > balanced view on the possible events that may confront the native. The > overriding point here is, that technique was taught by the canons of Vedic > astrology for a reason - taking only a part of the message, and rejecting > the rest, does not enable astrologers to gain ground in their predictive > ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2001 Report Share Posted October 23, 2001 Dear Mr. Koch, First, let me introduce myself, I am Lúcia do Vale, Brazilian, living in São Paulo and new to the list and to Jyotish too. I mean, I am trying to justify the reason for my question, if you allow me of course. Would you please tell me what is your opinion - and I am trying to figure it ou myself too - in using the 360 or the 365 days in the doshas system. By the way I am really amazed on how the dashas work in the lives people I know. Unfortunatelly, I still could not have a opinion formed about this subject. Would you please make light abou this. I thank you all in this list, I have learned a lot with the mails. Your faithfully Lúcia do Vale - "Robert A. Koch" <rkoch <gjlist> Wednesday, October 24, 2001 12:55 AM Re: [GJ] Re: Simplicity vs. Expansion > Dear Dharmapada, > > At 01:19 AM 10/24/01 +0000, you wrote: > >Robert, > > > >I feel very strongly about Vimshottari dasha, but I am not against > >other dasha systems. I always do Vimshottari, Yogini and Chara. I > >feel that the other two support Vimshottari very well, maybe Yogini > >less. > > > >What are your experiences in relation to sthira? Does sthira have to > >be done with chara? > > > >Dharmapada > > If you are using multiple dasa systems, it is important to keep in mind > their basic categories. Narayana dasa (which naturally includes Chara for > moveable signs rising) among rasi dasas, and Vimsottari, are Phalita dasas, > i.e. they time the results of karmas coming to fruition. Sthira, like > Shoola, dasa are Ayur dasas, and thus specifically meant to time the > periods of death. It depends on what the issues are that you want to > predict. In a general way, death can be seen through Phalita dasas also > (as after all, they too are karmas coming to fruition), although Ayur dasas > are specifically meant for that purpose. So, if using an Ayur dasa like > Sthira, etc., use it alone, as it is meant only for the purposes of timing > death. > > Best wishes, > Robert > > ===================================== > Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer > Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA > Phone: 541-318-0248 > visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail > rk. rk and > rkoch rkoch > > > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat > : gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2001 Report Share Posted October 23, 2001 Dear Dharmapada, At 01:19 AM 10/24/01 +0000, you wrote: >Robert, > >I feel very strongly about Vimshottari dasha, but I am not against >other dasha systems. I always do Vimshottari, Yogini and Chara. I >feel that the other two support Vimshottari very well, maybe Yogini >less. > >What are your experiences in relation to sthira? Does sthira have to >be done with chara? > >Dharmapada If you are using multiple dasa systems, it is important to keep in mind their basic categories. Narayana dasa (which naturally includes Chara for moveable signs rising) among rasi dasas, and Vimsottari, are Phalita dasas, i.e. they time the results of karmas coming to fruition. Sthira, like Shoola, dasa are Ayur dasas, and thus specifically meant to time the periods of death. It depends on what the issues are that you want to predict. In a general way, death can be seen through Phalita dasas also (as after all, they too are karmas coming to fruition), although Ayur dasas are specifically meant for that purpose. So, if using an Ayur dasa like Sthira, etc., use it alone, as it is meant only for the purposes of timing death. Best wishes, Robert ===================================== Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA Phone: 541-318-0248 visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail rk. rk and rkoch rkoch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2001 Report Share Posted October 24, 2001 Dear Robert Is chara dasa the same as Kalachakra, found on Jagannatha Hora LIght? Do any websites describe how to read the Narayana dasa, and which programs can this be found on? The programs I have stick to Vimsottari. Thanks Marcia If you are using multiple dasa systems, it is important to keep in mind their basic categories. Narayana dasa (which naturally includes Chara for moveable signs rising) among rasi dasas, and Vimsottari, are Phalita dasas, i.e. they time the results of karmas coming to fruition. Sthira, like Shoola, dasa are Ayur dasas, and thus specifically meant to time the periods of death. It depends on what the issues are that you want to predict. In a general way, death can be seen through Phalita dasas also (as after all, they too are karmas coming to fruition), although Ayur dasas are specifically meant for that purpose. So, if using an Ayur dasa like Sthira, etc., use it alone, as it is meant only for the purposes of timing death. Best wishes, Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2001 Report Share Posted October 24, 2001 Hello Marcia, At 09:27 AM 10/24/01 -0700, you wrote: >Dear Robert >Is chara dasa the same as Kalachakra, found on Jagannatha Hora LIght? >Do any websites describe how to read the Narayana dasa, and which >programs can this be found on? >The programs I have stick to Vimsottari. >Thanks >Marcia Chara dasa is different from Kalachakra altogether. Chara dasas, although in common usage are calculated from any sign rising, are really meant to be used for Charts in which a cardinal (moveable) sign is rising. Kalachakra dasa is based on totally separate sets of principles than Chara. Although KCD is an extremely accurate and poignant dasa system, it relies on a very accurate time of birth, the absence of which it can be way off. Chara dasa, like Narayana and other Phalita (fruits of karmas) dasas, rely only on the accuracy of the rising sing itself, and thus can be extremely effective even in the absence of exactly correct birth times. You can to any of the on-line forums of SJVC, in order to hear discussions on the use of Narayana dasa. Go to: www.sjvc.org, where you can to two on-line forums of the SJVC. You can also get the only book in print on this subject: "Narayana dasa", by Sanjay Rath. Also, "Vedic Astrology, an Integrated Approach", by Narasimha Rao, discusses Narayana dasa as well. Best wishes, Robert ===================================== Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA Phone: 541-318-0248 visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail rk. rk and rkoch rkoch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2001 Report Share Posted October 24, 2001 Hello Lucia, At 12:31 AM 10/24/01 -0200, you wrote: >Dear Mr. Koch, > > First, let me introduce myself, I am Lúcia do Vale, Brazilian, living >in São Paulo and new to the list and to Jyotish too. I mean, I am trying to >justify the reason for my question, if you allow me of course. Would you >please tell me what is your opinion - and I am trying to figure it ou myself >too - in using the 360 or the 365 days in the doshas system. By the way I am >really amazed on how the dashas work in the lives people I know. >Unfortunatelly, I still could not have a opinion formed about this subject. >Would you please make light abou this. I thank you all in this list, I have >learned a lot with the mails. >Your faithfully Lúcia do Vale There are a number of variations on the year length used for dashas. Most astrologers use the true solar year, which is 365.2524 days. Others are of the opinion, that the Savana year, of 360 days should be used. The latter is close to a "mean" year, but not quite. IN practise, I have used both, yet now use exclusively the 365.2524 year dasa for naksatra dasas like Vimsottari. Narayana dasa is based on a solar 360 degree year, or the year found for how long the Sun takes to move through all the degrees of the zodiac. This varies slightly from the 365.2524 day year. For an erudite and very complete discussion on the variables of year-lengths for dasas, please refer to "Vedic Astrology - An Integrated approach", by Narasimha Rao. This discussion could be lengthy, but for the most part, is covered very well in that book. Best wishes, Robert ===================================== Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA Phone: 541-318-0248 visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail rk. rk and rkoch rkoch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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