Prabhupada Katha

[Guest guest]

Dear Pursottam,

 

Hare Krsna - At 11:01 PM 10/20/01 +0100, you wrote:

>Om Krsnaaya Namah

>

>Pranaams Robert,

>

>Hare Krsna. Thanks for posting your views on Prabhupada's chart from the

>perspective of Narayana Dasas. I don't disagree that Sagittarius is a strong

>chart for travel. It most definitely is. However, the possibility is clear

>in the natal Capricorn chart as well. The ninth Lord is exalted in the ninth

>house, conjunct yogakaraka Venus, who is dispositor of the fourth and

>seventh Lords. This exalted ninth Lord is also Lord of A4 and A9 and

>receives aspects from them. If there's one thing I would not have hesitated

>to predict during Mercury Dasa, then it's got to be travel. In the Capricorn

>chart, travel is one of the most outstanding things signified by Mercury

>IMHO.

 

Consider these points for the Cp lagna: Lagna lord exalted in the 10th

(wherefrom the aspect goes to the 4th) indicates the greater success of

life at home, or in his own country. The indications are not nearly as

significant or powerful for this as in the Sg chart (as gone over before),

nor are the indications of heart attack and near death while in transit,

indicated (without stretching) in the Cp chart. Thirdly, Mercury as a

karaka of travel does not necessarily indicate travel at all, in a given

period of time, unless certain additional factors are in place. The natal

indications must suggest it loudly first of all, and secondly, the dasa

periods have to be convincing to show that life would uproot for good to a

foreign country. What, for example, is the difference between an

indications of a trip abroad, and a permanent relocation abroad? How can

you decipher these differences?

 

>Looking at Pisces Dasa as per the Cap chart - it is aspected by both A4 and

>it's Lord. You stated that this is one factor that repeatedly shows up in

>charts where the person travels to a foreign land. But my analysis is a bit

>more substantial also. Firstly, Pisces contains A7 and is aspected by

>Mercury. As mentioned, Mercury is the exalted ninth Lord, as well as being

>exalted Lord of A4 and A9. From Pisces, the fourth Lord is exalted in the

>seventh. The Lagna Lord is tightly conjunct Ketu, the stronger ninth Lord,

>(rasi) aspected by the exalted twelfth Lord. The twelfth house contains

>own-house Rahu, who is also karaka for foreign travel, and is aspected by

>exalted twelfth Lord Saturn.

 

Again, my question is: How, with the above configurations, do you tell if

the travel being indicated, is a trip to the Bahamas for vacation, for

example; or, if it is a trip on business to a foreign country; or, a trip

to So. Africa for a peace mission; or, as in the case of Prabhupada, a trip

to a foreign country on a sacred mission, to end his life in India for

good? Please tell me how you determine the difference between these things.

 

> I would say that the exaltation of the twelfth

>Lord in the eighth represents the fact that his travel was quite sudden -

>his ride was a gift from the Shipping Company owner, not something he

>actually spent time thinking about, and purchased etc. He suddenly had the

>opportunity, and he took it. The conjunction of the lagna lord and sixth

>lord, as well as Ketu in the sixth house could also represent the multiple

>heart-attacks he endured on his journey. But in any case, I still think that

>travel during this period could have been seen from the Capricorn chart,

>especially with Vimsottari and Narayana Dasa combined.

 

Prabhupada planned this journey for a long time, in fact, he had been

writing and translating in Vrndavana, for over two years prior, with the

specific intent of going to America to preach. Secondly, the 8th house

being a fixed rasi, Leo, suggests a persistent and sustained effort, not

sudden or unexpectedly. Further, there were a number of conversations

with Srimati Murarji, the owner of the shipping line, prior to his

departure. She initially would not grant the request of passage, thinking

Prabhupada too old to go. She was like a sister to him. Anyway,

eventually she gave in to his persistence and great determination. It was

not a sudden or sporadic event.

 

I would like to emphasize something here, although I think I emphasized it

before. Prabhupada's strongest thrust in his mission, was the writing,

publishing, and distribution of his books. In order to bring the exalted

Mercury into this kind of manifestation, it needs to not only be in a

*kendra* house, but it preferably should rule that house as well. I

already talked about Mercury ruling A3 as well, which brings third house

potentials into fullest manifestation. If the 10th lord is debilitated in

the 9th, then there would be a more acquiescent or relaxed approach, not

only to the distribution of the books, but to the thrust of his mission in

general. Those who were a part of ISKCON in the 70's, know this

well. Prabhupada was not a passive guru - he aggressively and forcefully

promoted Vaishnava dharma, and asked - al beit demanded - all his disciples

to do the same, according to their abilities. It was *all about book

distribution*, those early days in the Hare Krsna movement. You could not

be part of a temple, without being involved in that area of the

mission. The kendra houses are ruled by Brahma, and thus the thrust of

creation and externalized activity come through planets which fall in those

houses. If the lord of the 10th, by itself, is debilitated, even if in

Neecha-bhanga Raja-yoga, then the approach is not going to be nearly as

aggressive or forceful.

 

Another point: In his early years, Prabhupada worked as a Pharmacist. How

do you see this in the Capricorn chart? Pharmacy, or chemistry, comes

under Mars/Moon combinations, particularly those associated with the 6th

and 10th houses.

 

>I've still got to look at the event of his passing. In any case, there

>certainly must have been some obvious marakatva during the period,

>considering that it was predicted in foresight by a Capricorn chart

>astrologer. But I've yet to look into that from the viewpoint of rasi dasas.

 

Well, I guess that makes me a Sagittarius rising astrologer! (God only

knows I would rather be aligned with Jupiter anyway, instead of

Saturn! Interesting point: who are we talking about here? Prabhupada the

Jupiterian, or Prabhupada the Saturnian? :-)

 

 

Best wishes,

Robert

 

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk. rk and

rkoch rkoch

[Guest guest]

Dear Robert and everybody

 

I would like to give a statement to the following:

 

<<It was *all about book

distribution*, those early days in the Hare Krsna movement. You could not

be part of a temple, without being involved in that area of the

mission.>.

 

According to a very dear devotee friend of mine who has been very closely

associated with Prabhupad from almost day one and very involved in the

movement, this exact point is NOT true. She said that in the beginning the

"movement" was all about chanting, spiritual life, inner search, overcoming

one's anarthas, etc. Of course he wanted his books distributed. But not in the

way the devotees did it, from very early on. The way it was done, was the way

the disciples wanted it, it got out of hand from very early on. It took on its

own life, so to speak. He was not really aware of this and/or did not really

care at that point, for whatever reason. It was us Westerners with our very

efficient and fanatical approach that turned the movement into what it became.

After all, distributing books is so much easier for materialistic, western

Vaisya-mentality than chant, read and work on becoming more sattvic. So, in

order, to not admit this, they turned book distributtion from early on into

the most spiritual activity. When I joined it was considered higher than

chanting itself. Everything was measured upon it. I am deeply convinced

myself, that this is not what Prabhupada originally intended.

 

And I want to add on, that I am not intending, to put book distribution down.

But all this has to be looked upon very soberly. Because for me, it would

mean, that we have to look at his whole chart in a whole different way. A

founder Acharya's chart somewhere has to reflect the overall mood of the

movement he founded. It has to be seen in there. Personally I do not see this

with Sagittarius Lagna at all. The whole mood in the movement and the dynamics

it took on, would have been very different in my opinion.

 

But I don't know if anybody wants to hear about it or discuss it. So, I just

threw this in. Sorry in advance if my comments are not appreciated.

--

Vrajesvari

jyotish

 

Bernadette Kuhn

c/o Ayurvedic Rasayanas

P.O. Box 5966

Eugene, OR 97405

USA

 

Home: 541-349-8680

Work:

[Guest guest]

Dear Vrajeswari,

 

Nice to see your participation on this list! (Long time no see- I hope you

are well).

 

At 12:29 PM 10/21/01 -0800, you wrote:

>Dear Robert and everybody

>

>I would like to give a statement to the following:

>

><<It was *all about book

>distribution*, those early days in the Hare Krsna movement. You could not

>be part of a temple, without being involved in that area of the

>mission.>.

 

 

You wrote:

 

>According to a very dear devotee friend of mine who has been very closely

>associated with Prabhupad from almost day one and very involved in the

>movement, this exact point is NOT true.

 

I'm sorry, Vrajeswari, this is not correct, in fact nothing could be

farther from the truth, from what you wrote above. I joined ISKCON in

1970, at which time it is true, the greater emphasis was on chanting or

Sankirtana. I saw the movement grow, and evolve, over a period of 20

years, until I left in 1990, and I can tell from *direct, personal

experience of Prabhupada's orders*, that he was ferocious on the point of

book distribution. As soon as the BBT (Bhaktivedanta Book Trust) became

established, and there were more devotees to participate in the mission,

then the more the demand of the Acharya Prabhupada became evident. It was

war, frankly speaking, but war on Maya (illusion). Prabhupada would give

lecture after lecture, which I heard with my own ears in Los Angeles in the

1971 to 1975 period, in which he demanded that book distribution be placed

on the top of the priority list, and thus rallied the enthusiasm, energy,

and great determination of his young devotees to do just that. He asked

his leading disciples (this I also personally heard on a couple of

occasions sitting only five feet in front of him) to develop various types

of book distribution programs, such as travelling parties that would go to

universities, library programs, as well as airport distribution. He would

say things like, "distribute my books, by hook or crook", (an exact quote).

 

And even if there was an overly aggressive approach that devotees took, was

it such a bad thing to be aggressive in the matter of spreading Srimad

Bhagavatam and Bhagavad-gita and Vaishnava dharma, in answer to the direct

order of the Acharya? Every day, day in and day out, the forces of

Illusion are promoting their will aggressively and relentlessly on news

media, TV, Hollywood, etc. If the forces of light are to win this "Jihad"

against Maya, then devotees of a great spiritual general like Prabhupada

are going to do it aggressively. There is not doubt about this, and ISKCON

was the greatest, concerted effort in history to bring the pure teachings

of the Vedas in Parampara to the masses of people. Why do you think that

the hundreds of volumes of Prabhupada's books were translated into over 50

languages, if he didn't think that his books were a priority part of his

mission? Anybody who was closely attuned to the orders of Prabhupada,

especially in the periods between 1970 and 1977, will confirm that this is

true, without a doubt.

 

>It was us Westerners with our very

>efficient and fanatical approach that turned the movement into what it became.

>After all, distributing books is so much easier for materialistic, western

>Vaisya-mentality than chant, read and work on becoming more sattvic. So, in

>order, to not admit this, they turned book distributtion from early on into

>the most spiritual activity. When I joined it was considered higher than

>chanting itself. Everything was measured upon it. I am deeply convinced

>myself, that this is not what Prabhupada originally intended.

 

Vrajeswari, have you ever read the Bhagavad-gita? Do you know the

distinctions between different types of karmas that are described

there? Akarma, or Vishudha-karma, is that work which serves the purpose of

God or His pure devotees. There are no taints of Maya or material energy

connected with such karmas. To spread dharma, in the form of pure,

scriptural commentary, is the highest purity, and has nothing to do with

Rajas, Tamas, or other modes of nature. Anybody who aggressively promotes

something, runs the risk that someone may not like his approach. But that

does not make the effort materialistic, if it aims to spread the highest

consciousness, i.e. love of Radha and Krsna. Those early devotees, who

spent hours a day, risking danger from attacks from demonic persons, or

going door to door in the snow in sub-zero weather (as I did), or getting

beat up by jocks or Marines because they wore the robes of Holy men, to

spread Krsna Consciousness, represent the highest emblem of Vaishnava

dharma. Why did we do this? Because he asked us to, plain and

simple. For that reason (Prabhupada said this too), his disciples directly

involved in this mission, were personally drafted to assist him by his

guru, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami. How this happens, from the

"other side", is mystical, but nevertheless it happened.

 

>And I want to add on, that I am not intending, to put book distribution down.

>But all this has to be looked upon very soberly. Because for me, it would

>mean, that we have to look at his whole chart in a whole different way. A

>founder Acharya's chart somewhere has to reflect the overall mood of the

>movement he founded. It has to be seen in there. Personally I do not see this

>with Sagittarius Lagna at all. The whole mood in the movement and the dynamics

>it took on, would have been very different in my opinion.

 

Yes, that is because you were not present during the founding years of the

movement. So what perceptions, or experience, do you have to confirm this

or that lagna for Prabhupada? How do you know what the mood, for example,

was in 1971, when Prabhupada arose from his bed every day at 2 AM, to

translate and write his books? If you would have been there, you would

have seen something very different from what you now imagine it to be on

the basis of hear-say from one person, and without direct experience.

 

I have the VedaBase program, which gives a searchable listing of very word

Prabhupada spoke since his lectures and writings were written or

recorded. I would like to give you about a Mega page print-out of all the

statements he made regarding book distribution. Unfortunately, time is at

a scarcity, but I will try to make time, for posterity sake. Between now

and then, get a few second opinions from other of the immediate disciples

of Prabhupada between 1970 and 1977, and see what they say about

Prabhupada's desire and orders at that time, and the shape and direction

ISKCON took as a result. As of now, your understanding as written today,

is completely wrong, in my experience and opinion.

 

I am sorry that our reconnection after a few years is in this kind of

tone. It would be nice to meet with you sometime on a more peaceful

footing. :-)

 

Hare Krsna,

Robert

 

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

Faculty member SJVC and ACVA

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk. rk

[Guest guest]

I find it may be interesting to note:

 

Both Harikesh and Hansadutta, who caused so much of the book

distribution as direct "main men" under Prabhupada, both have Mercury in

it's own sign in the 9th, which Prabhupada has too if you use Cap. Lagna.

 

Also, one of the standard readings for Mercury in the 9th is "performs

yagyas all over the world" which all three of these persons did. Also,

Harikesh and Hansadutta opened many temples for Prabhupada in countries

other than their own birth countries, which is what he did too.

 

Please don't let love for Prabhupada, which we all have to varying

degrees, cause us to fight amongst ourselves. Remember to keep it

friendly please. Prabhupada would certainly not want his chart to cause

fighting. This we all know.

 

And welcome to Vrajesvari. Nice to see you on the list. I know you can

share and help newcomers as you know a lot of Jyotish.

 

Peace,

--

Das Goravani

[Guest guest]

Dear Robert

 

Don't worry, I assumed I was going to hear some "heavy" stuff.

 

Well, I guess, that this other devotee must be wrong too, then. She joined a

few years earlier than you.

 

On another note: Also, I have been participating in the circle around Narayan

Maharaj who by the way holds Srila Prabhupada in highest esteem. There are a

lot of senior Vaisnavas in this circle, as you may know. I have also read

quite a few of NM books by now. I see them as a continuation of what

Prabhupada taught us or a deeper explanation. I still read SP's books too. I

do not get at all the mood for myself personally, as you just described here.

But we are very different people. And I have to respect you as a senior

devotee. That is why I based my opinions on what my senior devoteefriend told

me over many discussions we had. I believed her.

 

Also, when I joined in Switzerland in th early 80ies, the world's most

successful bookdistributors were there. Some of them distributed books for 13

years or so. They were absolutely convinced. It sounded very convincing to me

as well and I felt very bad about myself, because I was not able to live even

1% up to this ideal. However, all these people are gone, in fact some of them

talk about themselves as fanatical, ambitious devoteees with great

Vaisya-mentality, when they look back on their sankirtan-brahmacari-

"haydays". Others only consider themselves the victims of Harikesh, back then

called, "Sri Visnupada". Many don't even go to the temple anymore. They live

absolutely "mundane" lives, from one day to the next so to speak. Honestly, I

find this all very contradictory and it just makes me wonder. Actually I could

say alot more, because I pondered all this for litereally thousands of hours

during the past 15 years.

 

Well, I don't know, but it seems to me this whole topic is too hot of an iron

for me to touch any longer. But thanks, for the soothing note, Raghu

--

Vrajesvari

jyotish

 

Bernadette Kuhn

c/o Ayurvedic Rasayanas

P.O. Box 5966

Eugene, OR 97405

USA

 

Home: 541-349-8680

Work:

[Guest guest]

Om Gurave Namah--------------------------Dear Vrajesvari Devi,

It has more to do with the chart of ISKCON itself. The turning point is gradual,

but sure to come as Saturn leaves Taurus. ISKON is the vehicle for Srila's

mission and is not the personality of Srila Himself. Like all vehicles it needs

repais, maintenance and fuel of course.

Interesting to read all this as we in India hardly know what transpired.Best WishesSanjay Rath

- Vrajesvari

gjlist

Monday, October 22, 2001 4:03 AM

Re: [GJ] Prabhupada Katha

Dear RobertDon't worry, I assumed I was going to hear some "heavy" stuff. Well,

I guess, that this other devotee must be wrong too, then. She joined afew years

earlier than you.On another note: Also, I have been participating in the circle

around NarayanMaharaj who by the way holds Srila Prabhupada in highest esteem.

There are alot of senior Vaisnavas in this circle, as you may know. I have also

readquite a few of NM books by now. I see them as a continuation of

whatPrabhupada taught us or a deeper explanation. I still read SP's books too.

Ido not get at all the mood for myself personally, as you just described

here.But we are very different people. And I have to respect you as a

seniordevotee. That is why I based my opinions on what my senior devoteefriend

toldme over many discussions we had. I believed her.Also, when I joined in

Switzerland in th early 80ies, the world's mostsuccessful bookdistributors were

there. Some of them distributed books for 13years or so. They were absolutely

convinced. It sounded very convincing to meas well and I felt very bad about

myself, because I was not able to live even1% up to this ideal. However, all

these people are gone, in fact some of themtalk about themselves as fanatical,

ambitious devoteees with greatVaisya-mentality, when they look back on their

sankirtan-brahmacari-"haydays". Others only consider themselves the victims of

Harikesh, back thencalled, "Sri Visnupada". Many don't even go to the temple

anymore. They liveabsolutely "mundane" lives, from one day to the next so to

speak. Honestly, Ifind this all very contradictory and it just makes me wonder.

Actually I couldsay alot more, because I pondered all this for litereally

thousands of hoursduring the past 15 years.Well, I don't know, but it seems to

me this whole topic is too hot of an ironfor me to touch any longer. But

thanks, for the soothing note, Raghu-- Vrajesvarijyotish (AT) goravani (DOT) comBernadette

Kuhnc/o Ayurvedic RasayanasP.O. Box 5966Eugene, OR 97405USA Home:

541-349-8680Work: Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya; Hare Krishna; Om

Tat Sat:

gjlist-http://www.goravani.com Your use of

is subject to

[Guest guest]

Om Gurave Namah--------------------------Raghu,

There is a difference in their Karma out here. For Harkesha and Hansadutta

Prbhu's, it was their service to their Guru related to their Dharma and the

Capricorn Lagna explains the book distribution better for them (Mercury as

sixth & ninth lord), whereas for Srila, those books meant his own Karma, his

mission and his success. His Guru's directions were different for Srila: To

spread the Hare nama throughout the world and this is to be seen exclusively

from the ninth house. That Srila used his books or any other means for the

purpose is his personal decision in the direction given by the Guru.

 

There are so many other small points like the trines in the Navamsa which should

be carefully studied for the abilities we get (gift) from past life Dhrama etc.

Moon in trines gives a good voice and makes one a very good singer (Makara

lagna) whereas Jupiter makes a person very intelligent having knowledge in

various fields (Sagittarius). The sun in trines makes one famous or at least a

capable musical instrument player (Makara Lagna) whereas mercury in trines

gives capability in writing (along with Jupiter) and famous for the same

(Sagittarius Lagna). Satrun in trines makes one follow the path of his elders

and a very hardworking person who shall also be orthodox in habits (Sagittarius

lagna).

 

If we look at the Navamsa carefully, the Sagittarius indicates a great Pandit

with the perfect knowledge of the Vedas and shastra (Jupiter) who will write

many books (Mercury) and will follow his elders (Saturn). The specific

conjunction of Jup (Guru) and Merc (Shisya) shall give him a great following of

dedicated Shisya.

 

Makara Lagna chart better shows a musician and singer.

 

As the discussions by the erudite scholars have shown, foreign travel has been

indicated in both the charts, perhaps we can examine the building of temples.

The SUN (with JUP) is the Karaka for this. Kindly examine this point very

carefully. I hope Robert, Chris and Vrajesvari Devi shall take a look at this

aspect as well.

Best WishesSanjay Rath

- Das Goravani

gjlist

Monday, October 22, 2001 2:43 AM

Re: [GJ] Prabhupada Katha

I find it may be interesting to note:Both Harikesh and Hansadutta, who caused so

much of the bookdistribution as direct "main men" under Prabhupada, both have

Mercury init's own sign in the 9th, which Prabhupada has too if you use Cap.

Lagna.Also, one of the standard readings for Mercury in the 9th is

"performsyagyas all over the world" which all three of these persons did.

Also,Harikesh and Hansadutta opened many temples for Prabhupada in

countriesother than their own birth countries, which is what he did too.Please

don't let love for Prabhupada, which we all have to varyingdegrees, cause us to

fight amongst ourselves. Remember to keep itfriendly please. Prabhupada would

certainly not want his chart to causefighting. This we all know.And welcome to

Vrajesvari. Nice to see you on the list. I know you canshare and help newcomers

as you know a lot of Jyotish.Peace,-- Das GoravaniOm Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya;

Hare Krishna; Om Tat Sat:

gjlist-http://www.goravani.com Your use of

is subject to

[Guest guest]

Sanjay Rath,

 

Insofar as book distribution and Shrila Prabhupada's chart are

concerned, the third lord in the eighth from Capricorn lagna doesn't

seem to support a man whose books sold by the millions, especially

during the dasha of Ketu in the eighth.

 

I've made the point that it doesn't look like a vipreet raj yoga at

all in the eighth as the Sun is providing traditional strength by

beingin his own sign. For the vipreet effect to take place, evil

lords have to afflict the evil house causing the opposite, i.e., good

effects. But the Sun is providing tradtional strength.

 

Thisis my opinion- Purushottama and I have gone 'round and 'round on

this one, we don't exactly want to start that up again.

 

Anyway, this is my point- I do not see how the Capricorn chart can

support that kind of book distribution that took place during the

dasha of Ketu in the eighth, with the third lord being in the eighth,

too. This is especially hard for me to swallow as I see no vipreet

effects.

 

As such, why go to more subtlepoints? This major point is a

realstickingpoint.

 

YS,

 

Dharmapada

 

 

> As the discussions by the erudite scholars have shown, foreign

travel has been indicated in both the charts, perhaps we can examine

the building of temples. The SUN (with JUP) is the Karaka for this.

Kindly examine this point very carefully. I hope Robert, Chris and

Vrajesvari Devi shall take a look at this aspect as well.

>

> Best Wishes

> Sanjay Rath