Guest guest Posted October 12, 2001 Report Share Posted October 12, 2001 To all participants of this debate, Regretfully there seems to be some ill-feeling towards those not in agreement with the Sagittarius lagna and, not wishing to get embroiled in yet another controversy, I think it's time I withdrew from the topic...but if I may indulge in one last observation regarding Jupiter's placement... Let's consider the significations of Jupiter and how they would manifest according to his placement and his association with other planets. In the matter of wealth...Lagnesh Jupiter in 9th, conjunct 9th lord Sun (whilst 2nd lord is exalted in 11th) indicates wealth and prosperity for the native...this Jupiter also owns 4th house of home, home comforts, vehicles etc...so one could predict that this native would be prosperous, would live in fine homes and would have abundant possessions (including vehicles).... On the other hand, 12th (moksha) lord Jupiter in 8th, conjunct 8th (moksha) lord Sun does not favour material wealth at all...it is however a magnificent testament to moksha and great spiritual wealth... I regret, that in spite of the evidence put forward, some still will not look at the chart objectively...it looks as though the issue will remain unresolved. Best Wishes, Wendy ========================== Wendy Vasicek: Vedic Astrologer http://welcome.to/Vedic Astrology/ wenvas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2001 Report Share Posted October 12, 2001 PS: If I might just quickly show the same argument in relation to Mercury. As we know Mercury is the natural karaka for the 10th house...and we see for Capricorn lagna that both 10th lord Venus and karaka for 10th (Mercury) have gone to the 9th house...Mercury is the planet of the intellect, it governs writing; is lord of 6th house of service, medicine, preparation of food and is exalted in the 9th house of publishing, religion etc... For Sagittarius however, Mercury (writing etc) has no association with 6th or 9th houses. It does however have a strong association with 7th and 10th...showing a career connected to business and commerce. Best Wishes, Wendy ========================== Wendy Vasicek: Vedic Astrologer http://welcome.to/Vedic Astrology/ wenvas To all participants of this debate, Regretfully there seems to be some ill-feeling towards those not in agreement with the Sagittarius lagna and, not wishing to get embroiled in yet another controversy, I think it's time I withdrew from the topic...but if I may indulge in one last observation regarding Jupiter's placement... Let's consider the significations of Jupiter and how they would manifest according to his placement and his association with other planets. In the matter of wealth...Lagnesh Jupiter in 9th, conjunct 9th lord Sun (whilst 2nd lord is exalted in 11th) indicates wealth and prosperity for the native...this Jupiter also owns 4th house of home, home comforts, vehicles etc...so one could predict that this native would be prosperous, would live in fine homes and would have abundant possessions (including vehicles).... On the other hand, 12th (moksha) lord Jupiter in 8th, conjunct 8th (moksha) lord Sun does not favour material wealth at all...it is however a magnificent testament to moksha and great spiritual wealth... I regret, that in spite of the evidence put forward, some still will not look at the chart objectively...it looks as though the issue will remain unresolved. Best Wishes, Wendy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2001 Report Share Posted October 12, 2001 > Let's consider the significations of Jupiter and how they would manifest according to his placement and his association with other planets. > > In the matter of wealth...Lagnesh Jupiter in 9th, conjunct 9th lord Sun (whilst 2nd lord is exalted in 11th) indicates wealth and prosperity for the native...this Jupiter also owns 4th house of home, home comforts, vehicles etc...so one could predict that this native would be prosperous, would live in fine homes and would have abundant possessions (including vehicles).... Wendy, Yes, Shrila Prabhupada did quite well during his Jupiter dasha, middle class and all. This suggests Sagittarius lagna. > On the other hand, 12th (moksha) lord Jupiter in 8th, conjunct 8th (moksha) lord Sun does not favour material wealth at all...it is however a magnificent testament to moksha and great spiritual wealth... Ditto my comments above. > I regret, that in spite of the evidence put forward, some still will not look at the chart objectively...it looks as though the issue will remain unresolved. Why shouldn't I become exasperated with people who apply dance around like that? Anyone can interpret doing like that- gypsies do. Dharmapada ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2001 Report Share Posted October 12, 2001 Dear Wendy, Thank you for your continued participation in topics related to Prabhupada's horoscope. At 12:56 AM 10/13/01 +0800, you wrote: >In the matter of wealth...Lagnesh Jupiter in 9th, conjunct 9th lord Sun >(whilst 2nd lord is exalted in 11th) indicates wealth and prosperity for >the native...this Jupiter also owns 4th house of home, home comforts, >vehicles etc...so one could predict that this native would be prosperous, >would live in fine homes and would have abundant possessions (including >vehicles).... > >On the other hand, 12th (moksha) lord Jupiter in 8th, conjunct 8th >(moksha) lord Sun does not favour material wealth at all...it is however a >magnificent testament to moksha and great spiritual wealth... This is a good point, and so let me explain as follows: Your question, then, basically revolves around "where is all the wealth, given (according to a Sg lagna), a strong dhana yoga is found in the 9th house"? If a dhana yoga obtains in the 9th house, while one of the yogakarakas (Jupiter in this case) rules the ascendant and is *exactly* conjunct Ketu, then the following will occur: The individual has great wealth in life, and could live in great opulence, but he has no taste for such things. After establishing ISKCON, and creating over 108 temples all over the world, Prabhupada resided in very beautiful, opulent, transcendental surroundings. All of his needs were provided for, included costs for air fares in his travels all over the world for preaching and opening temples. In a matter of 12 years, he travelled around the world 8 times. Who paid for all of this? He personally was completely detached, but lived amidst incredible opulence. And should it be otherwise, considering that on his request, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Radha and Krsna, resided wherever he went? Now this brings us closer to the issue: the 9th house gets full emphasis here, which is the most important Laksmi-sthana. Laksmi is the consort of Vishnu (Krsna) and She is the Goddess of Fortune. She brings wealth, only when her husband, Narayana or Vishnu, is pleased with someone. So Laksmi very happily resided wherever Prabhupada went, and thus he appeared as though a king, yet whose consciousness had no attachment or aversion to anything material. This is seen through the lagna lord Jupiter coming to the exact conjunction of Ketu, among other things. Another important (but mostly neglected teaching) of Parasara, is Argala. Learn about Argalas, please, everybody. These are plainly taught and described in BPHS, and are not an "obscure methodology" that no one has heard about. Argala means intervention, and there are benefic and malefic Argalas. If someone is interested, I will send the rules, but for now, strong malefics in the 3rd house from any planet(s), causes a favorable, or benefic intervention on the affairs of those planets and houses where they are situated. Thus, seeing the dhana yoga in the 9th as you have described, exalted Saturn in the 3rd from there showed that Prabhupada utilized great wealth for the furthering of consciousness among humanity. Note also that both Rahu, the Atmakaraka, and exalted Saturn, dominate two out of three Kama-sthanas, with Saturn giving full and uninterrupted Argala to the 9th house. Thus again, there is great wealth, but the thought of it being used for his own sake, never occurred to Prabhupada, who was a "Nitya-siddha", or eternally liberated soul. As said earlier, exalted Mercury in the 10th, with debilitated 6th lord Venus, both planets Vaishnava (Vishnu [Krsna] worship, according to Parasara), shows that he emphasized service, or Bhakti-yoga, and preached and wrote about it extensively in his books. Exalted Mercury's rules the Arudha of the 3rd. A3 shows the *extent to which 3rd house matters can come into physical manifestation*. Thus not only did he write, but he wrote and spoke with such intelligence, conviction and ferocity, that scholars, religionists, politicians, etc. would simply sit in awe of him and could not even speak a word in his presence. I know this, because I was personally there and witnessed such events many times. An angular presence of Mercury in exaltation is needed for this - trikona positioning, as per Cp lagna, do not bring the karakatwa of planets so placed into such aggressive, external expression. >I regret, that in spite of the evidence put forward, some still will not >look at the chart objectively...it looks as though the issue will remain >unresolved. It is hard to be objective when making strong arguments for, or against a principle. I feel that your contributions, Wendy, in this discussion are valuable and help the eventual realization of the true chart, given exalted Mercury also in your 9th house. So bear with it, please. Personally, I am in ecstasy with this discussion, given that it brings the presence and blessings my guru Prabhupada ever so closer. But, if interest wanes, then the focus shifts, naturally. But stay with if for now - these topics will definitely prove to be beneficial to anybody who hears or takes part. Best wishes, Robert ===================================== Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA Phone: 541-318-0248 visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail rk. rk and rkoch rkoch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2001 Report Share Posted October 12, 2001 > For Sagittarius however, Mercury (writing etc) has no association with 6th or 9th houses. It does however have a strong association with 7th and 10th...showing a career connected to business and commerce. have been removed] Wendy, Mercury in the tenth, he was a writer. It was a religious chart, what else was he going to write about? The aspect of the lord of the ninth on the third already indicates the religious nature of his writing. Dharmapada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2001 Report Share Posted October 12, 2001 >Wendy wrote: >For Sagittarius however, Mercury (writing etc) has no association with 6th >or 9th houses. It does however have a strong association with 7th and >10th...showing a career connected to business and commerce. Wendy, does not 6th lord Venus amount to service (especially Venus in Virgo)? Venus also rules the Gurupada (Arudha of the 9th house) for Sg rising, which is Taurus. Best wishes, Robert ===================================== Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA Phone: 541-318-0248 visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail rk. rk and rkoch rkoch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2001 Report Share Posted October 12, 2001 Dear Robert, You Wrote: >>>After establishing ISKCON, and creating over 108 temples all over the world, Prabhupada resided in very beautiful, opulent, transcendental surroundings. All of his needs were provided for, included costs for air fares in his travels all over the world for preaching and opening temples. In a matter of 12 years, he travelled around the world 8 times. Who paid for all of this?<<< Wealth from disciples etc. paid for all this, surely! Please note exalted AtmaKaraka Moon participating in Chandra-Mangala Yoga in 5th house of "disciples"...Mangala (Mars) owns 4th house of homes, conveyances; 11th house of gains etc...... In regards to Mercury's position...6th lord of service exalted in 9th house of religion, publishing etc., testifies to the *type* of service Prabhupada was engaged in. Preparation of food was a huge part of his religious teaching...the ISKCON recipe books are unsurpassable, my meals have been based on them for well over 20 yrs...6th lord Venus (fallen in 10th) does not testify to this at all. Best Wishes, Wendy ========================== Wendy Vasicek: Vedic Astrologer http://welcome.to/Vedic Astrology/ wenvas - Robert A. Koch gjlist Saturday, October 13, 2001 2:46 AM Re: [gjlist] One last observation Dear Wendy, Thank you for your continued participation in topics related to Prabhupada's horoscope. At 12:56 AM 10/13/01 +0800, you wrote: >In the matter of wealth...Lagnesh Jupiter in 9th, conjunct 9th lord Sun >(whilst 2nd lord is exalted in 11th) indicates wealth and prosperity for >the native...this Jupiter also owns 4th house of home, home comforts, >vehicles etc...so one could predict that this native would be prosperous, >would live in fine homes and would have abundant possessions (including >vehicles).... > >On the other hand, 12th (moksha) lord Jupiter in 8th, conjunct 8th >(moksha) lord Sun does not favour material wealth at all...it is however a >magnificent testament to moksha and great spiritual wealth... This is a good point, and so let me explain as follows: Your question, then, basically revolves around "where is all the wealth, given (according to a Sg lagna), a strong dhana yoga is found in the 9th house"? If a dhana yoga obtains in the 9th house, while one of the yogakarakas (Jupiter in this case) rules the ascendant and is *exactly* conjunct Ketu, then the following will occur: The individual has great wealth in life, and could live in great opulence, but he has no taste for such things. He personally was completely detached, but lived amidst incredible opulence. And should it be otherwise, considering that on his request, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Radha and Krsna, resided wherever he went? Now this brings us closer to the issue: the 9th house gets full emphasis here, which is the most important Laksmi-sthana. Laksmi is the consort of Vishnu (Krsna) and She is the Goddess of Fortune. She brings wealth, only when her husband, Narayana or Vishnu, is pleased with someone. So Laksmi very happily resided wherever Prabhupada went, and thus he appeared as though a king, yet whose consciousness had no attachment or aversion to anything material. This is seen through the lagna lord Jupiter coming to the exact conjunction of Ketu, among other things. Another important (but mostly neglected teaching) of Parasara, is Argala. Learn about Argalas, please, everybody. These are plainly taught and described in BPHS, and are not an "obscure methodology" that no one has heard about. Argala means intervention, and there are benefic and malefic Argalas. If someone is interested, I will send the rules, but for now, strong malefics in the 3rd house from any planet(s), causes a favorable, or benefic intervention on the affairs of those planets and houses where they are situated. Thus, seeing the dhana yoga in the 9th as you have described, exalted Saturn in the 3rd from there showed that Prabhupada utilized great wealth for the furthering of consciousness among humanity. Note also that both Rahu, the Atmakaraka, and exalted Saturn, dominate two out of three Kama-sthanas, with Saturn giving full and uninterrupted Argala to the 9th house. Thus again, there is great wealth, but the thought of it being used for his own sake, never occurred to Prabhupada, who was a "Nitya-siddha", or eternally liberated soul. As said earlier, exalted Mercury in the 10th, with debilitated 6th lord Venus, both planets Vaishnava (Vishnu [Krsna] worship, according to Parasara), shows that he emphasized service, or Bhakti-yoga, and preached and wrote about it extensively in his books. Exalted Mercury's rules the Arudha of the 3rd. A3 shows the *extent to which 3rd house matters can come into physical manifestation*. Thus not only did he write, but he wrote and spoke with such intelligence, conviction and ferocity, that scholars, religionists, politicians, etc. would simply sit in awe of him and could not even speak a word in his presence. I know this, because I was personally there and witnessed such events many times. An angular presence of Mercury in exaltation is needed for this - trikona positioning, as per Cp lagna, do not bring the karakatwa of planets so placed into such aggressive, external expression. >I regret, that in spite of the evidence put forward, some still will not >look at the chart objectively...it looks as though the issue will remain >unresolved. It is hard to be objective when making strong arguments for, or against a principle. I feel that your contributions, Wendy, in this discussion are valuable and help the eventual realization of the true chart, given exalted Mercury also in your 9th house. So bear with it, please. Personally, I am in ecstasy with this discussion, given that it brings the presence and blessings my guru Prabhupada ever so closer. But, if interest wanes, then the focus shifts, naturally. But stay with if for now - these topics will definitely prove to be beneficial to anybody who hears or takes part. Best wishes, Robert ===================================== Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA Phone: 541-318-0248 visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail rk. rk and rkoch rkoch gjlist- Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2001 Report Share Posted October 12, 2001 Dear Robert, Your own words support my earlier post regarding 2nd house of speech.... You wrote: >>>Thus not only did he write, but he wrote and spoke with such intelligence, conviction and ferocity, that scholars, religionists, politicians, etc. would simply sit in awe of him and could not even speak a word in his presence. I know this, because I was personally there and witnessed such events many times.<<< My Post: >>>One of your greatest objections to Capricorn lagna is the placement of Rahu in 2nd; I, on the other hand, see this placement (without prejudice) as entirely descriptive of Prabhupada. One thing we can all say is that he was not soft-spoken...his speech was strong, powerful, direct and compelling; nothing meek and mild about his speech at all. He often came across as stern, strict and unrelenting...anyone who heard him talk can vouch for that, I can vouch for that! This is entirely in keeping with 2nd house lorded by Saturn and tenanted by Rahu...<<< Best Wishes, Wendy ========================== Wendy Vasicek: Vedic Astrologer http://welcome.to/Vedic Astrology/ wenvas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2001 Report Share Posted October 13, 2001 Dear Wendy I like your approach in reading the basic energies of the chart .This scoreboard approach so many events for Sag So many events for Cap is a concocted approach .What if Gemini wins ? Nicholas - "Wendy Vasicek" <wenvas <gjlist> Saturday, October 13, 2001 12:21 PM Re: [gjlist] One last observation > Dear Robert, > > You Wrote: > >>>After > establishing ISKCON, and creating over 108 temples all over the world, > Prabhupada resided in very beautiful, opulent, transcendental > surroundings. All of his needs were provided for, included costs for air > fares in his travels all over the world for preaching and opening > temples. In a matter of 12 years, he travelled around the world 8 > times. Who paid for all of this?<<< > > Wealth from disciples etc. paid for all this, surely! Please note exalted AtmaKaraka Moon participating in Chandra-Mangala Yoga in 5th house of "disciples"...Mangala (Mars) owns 4th house of homes, conveyances; 11th house of gains etc...... > > In regards to Mercury's position...6th lord of service exalted in 9th house of religion, publishing etc., testifies to the *type* of service Prabhupada was engaged in. Preparation of food was a huge part of his religious teaching...the ISKCON recipe books are unsurpassable, my meals have been based on them for well over 20 yrs...6th lord Venus (fallen in 10th) does not testify to this at all. > > Best Wishes, > Wendy > > ========================== > Wendy Vasicek: Vedic Astrologer > http://welcome.to/Vedic Astrology/ > wenvas > - > Robert A. Koch > gjlist > Saturday, October 13, 2001 2:46 AM > Re: [gjlist] One last observation > > > Dear Wendy, > > Thank you for your continued participation in topics related to > Prabhupada's horoscope. > > At 12:56 AM 10/13/01 +0800, you wrote: > > >In the matter of wealth...Lagnesh Jupiter in 9th, conjunct 9th lord Sun > >(whilst 2nd lord is exalted in 11th) indicates wealth and prosperity for > >the native...this Jupiter also owns 4th house of home, home comforts, > >vehicles etc...so one could predict that this native would be prosperous, > >would live in fine homes and would have abundant possessions (including > >vehicles).... > > > >On the other hand, 12th (moksha) lord Jupiter in 8th, conjunct 8th > >(moksha) lord Sun does not favour material wealth at all...it is however a > >magnificent testament to moksha and great spiritual wealth... > > This is a good point, and so let me explain as follows: Your question, > then, basically revolves around "where is all the wealth, given (according > to a Sg lagna), a strong dhana yoga is found in the 9th house"? If a dhana > yoga obtains in the 9th house, while one of the yogakarakas (Jupiter in > this case) rules the ascendant and is *exactly* conjunct Ketu, then the > following will occur: The individual has great wealth in life, and could > live in great opulence, but he has no taste for such things. He personally was completely detached, > but lived amidst incredible opulence. And should it be otherwise, > considering that on his request, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Radha > and Krsna, resided wherever he went? > > Now this brings us closer to the issue: the 9th house gets full emphasis > here, which is the most important Laksmi-sthana. Laksmi is the consort of > Vishnu (Krsna) and She is the Goddess of Fortune. She brings wealth, only > when her husband, Narayana or Vishnu, is pleased with someone. So Laksmi > very happily resided wherever Prabhupada went, and thus he appeared as > though a king, yet whose consciousness had no attachment or aversion to > anything material. This is seen through the lagna lord Jupiter coming to > the exact conjunction of Ketu, among other things. > > Another important (but mostly neglected teaching) of Parasara, is > Argala. Learn about Argalas, please, everybody. These are plainly taught > and described in BPHS, and are not an "obscure methodology" that no one has > heard about. Argala means intervention, and there are benefic and malefic > Argalas. If someone is interested, I will send the rules, but for now, > strong malefics in the 3rd house from any planet(s), causes a favorable, or > benefic intervention on the affairs of those planets and houses where they > are situated. Thus, seeing the dhana yoga in the 9th as you have > described, exalted Saturn in the 3rd from there showed that Prabhupada > utilized great wealth for the furthering of consciousness among > humanity. Note also that both Rahu, the Atmakaraka, and exalted Saturn, > dominate two out of three Kama-sthanas, with Saturn giving full and > uninterrupted Argala to the 9th house. Thus again, there is great wealth, > but the thought of it being used for his own sake, never occurred to > Prabhupada, who was a "Nitya-siddha", or eternally liberated soul. > > As said earlier, exalted Mercury in the 10th, with debilitated 6th lord > Venus, both planets Vaishnava (Vishnu [Krsna] worship, according to > Parasara), shows that he emphasized service, or Bhakti-yoga, and preached > and wrote about it extensively in his books. Exalted Mercury's rules the > Arudha of the 3rd. A3 shows the *extent to which 3rd house matters can > come into physical manifestation*. Thus not only did he write, but he > wrote and spoke with such intelligence, conviction and ferocity, that > scholars, religionists, politicians, etc. would simply sit in awe of him > and could not even speak a word in his presence. I know this, because I > was personally there and witnessed such events many times. An angular > presence of Mercury in exaltation is needed for this - trikona positioning, > as per Cp lagna, do not bring the karakatwa of planets so placed into such > aggressive, external expression. > > >I regret, that in spite of the evidence put forward, some still will not > >look at the chart objectively...it looks as though the issue will remain > >unresolved. > > It is hard to be objective when making strong arguments for, or against a > principle. I feel that your contributions, Wendy, in this discussion are > valuable and help the eventual realization of the true chart, given exalted > Mercury also in your 9th house. So bear with it, please. Personally, I am > in ecstasy with this discussion, given that it brings the presence and > blessings my guru Prabhupada ever so closer. But, if interest wanes, then > the focus shifts, naturally. But stay with if for now - these topics will > definitely prove to be beneficial to anybody who hears or takes part. > > Best wishes, > Robert > > ===================================== > Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer > Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA > Phone: 541-318-0248 > visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail > rk. rk and > rkoch rkoch > > > > gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2001 Report Share Posted October 13, 2001 Dear Nicholas, I have to agree that this scoreboard approach is getting a bit over the top. I certainly find that the time given by Prabhupada himself is completely verifiable. I had hoped to be able to show this clearly with unbiased delineation, but I see that's not possible. I do understand Robert's reasons and rationale, I just can't agree with them. Hope I haven't ruffled any feathers...not my intent. Best Wishes, Wendy ========================== Wendy Vasicek: Vedic Astrologer http://welcome.to/Vedic Astrology/ wenvas Dear Wendy I like your approach in reading the basic energies of the chart .This scoreboard approach so many events for Sag So many events for Cap is a concocted approach .What if Gemini wins ? Nicholas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2001 Report Share Posted October 13, 2001 Nicholas wrote: At 07:51 PM 10/13/01 +1000, you wrote: >Dear Wendy >I like your approach in reading the basic energies of the chart .This >scoreboard approach so many events for Sag So many events for Cap is a >concocted approach .What if Gemini wins ? >Nicholas You also wrote: >Dear List Members >By Krsna's arrangement Srila Prabhupada gave us a birth time which clearly gave >Capricorn Lagna (remember also that the whole science of muhurta is based on >destined times i.e as astrologers 4 o clock is the time we are destined to receive) >By Krsna's arrangement this Lagna gave extraordinarily predictive success >By Krsna's arrangement someone swung the Lagna to Sagittarius during Srila >Prabhupada's lifetime >By Krsna's arrangement this person met with predictive failure . Your approach to all of this is dogmatic, in fact Hitlerian is some kind of weird way. Anyway, all of that aside: astrologers will argue *qualities* or *attributes* of certain chart peculiarities forever. The analysis of events will be far more convincing. Why do you have an aversion to objectively studying these things? Best wishes, Robert ===================================== Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA Phone: 541-318-0248 visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail rk. rk and rkoch rkoch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2001 Report Share Posted October 13, 2001 Dear Robert > Your approach to all of this is dogmatic, in fact Hitlerian is some kind of > weird way. Anyway, all of that aside: astrologers will argue *qualities* > or *attributes* of certain chart peculiarities forever. The analysis of > events will be far more convincing. Why do you have an aversion to > objectively studying these things? > You are correct that I have an aversion to discussing Srila Parbhupada's chart in terms of Sagittarius Vs Capricorn Lagna but I think that to say my approach is Hitlerian well I really can't see that . To understand why I have an aversion to this let's have a little history of the debate . Originally Nalini Kantha went into print saying that Srila Prabhupada had a Sagittarius Lagna and being new to astrology I accepted his arguments .Then there was a debate on Iskcon's e-mail bulletin board in which Nalini was trounced by Shyamsundara Prabhu at which point Nalini quit the Iskcon e-mail system .At this time also you went over to the Capricorn Lagna and the issue was pretty well resolved except for Nalini . I should add Nalini had made his assessments when he was very new in astrology where as Shyamasundara Prabhu had been specifically asked by Srila Prabhupada to study Vedic astrology and studied with the very best teachers in India for many years before he had written on the subject.Thus if anyone had the blessings of Guru to analyse his chart it was Shyamasundara Prabhu. Now a couple of years back Sanjay Rath went into print again stating that he had rectified Srila Prabhupada's chart and given it a Sagittarius Lagna .His rationale was that Jupiter in the 8th was asura Yoga .Now anyone versed in astrology knows that you cannot assess a chart on a single placement yet SR had changed the Lagna on this basis .It is not true that everyone who has Jupiter in the 8th is an asura and if one is going to change a whole chart on that basis it is quite questionable .This to me is a vcry key issue is there an adequate rationale for changing the Lagna ? Now for the rest of Sanjay's paper if one makes a mistake at the start then everythimg else is questionable ,in mathematics everything is wrong .So the last 2-3 years of the debate clearly started with a wrong premise . Now the members of SJVC practise a plethora of techniques by which they can outscore anyone on back rectifying Srila Prabhupada's chart to give a Sagittarius Lagna and therefore they usually push the argument into a scoreboard approach but remember they have started with a wrong premise . However it should be noted that many of the best astrologers in India do not use much more than rasi,divisionals ,Gochara and Vimshottari (with prasna also applied on the forementioned) . The reason is that these in themselves are not easily understood and therefore these astrologers prefer depth to width .Remember the old joke that one gets water by digging 20 feet deep rather than ten holes of two foot depth . Newcomers on the list should be careful on this point .My advice is go deep . Too often astrologers prematurely imagine that they have mastered these basic subjects . Now all of the above is not why I dislike this subject but I would describe as concerns that I have . To me there is a measure of disrespect to Srila Prabhupada and his parents that he did not know his birth time .Also when questioned about the accuracy of the birth time SP stated it may have been a few minutes after but not before .. I had an uncomfortable feeling about this .Interestingly on this point the person who published Nalini's book with the Sagittarius Lagna has publicly stated that he felt that he had offended his Guru by presenting the Sagittarius rising chart even before Shyamsundara Prabhu started his rebuttal . What started as uncomfortable feelings turned to complete animosity to the Sagittarius Lagna when Nalini went into print giving the astrological reasons why Srila Prabhupada was poisoned by his disciples based on the Sagittarius Lagna . This is a very serious misuse of astrology to label others as murderers particurly persons who wouldn't have a single astrological tool to defend themselves . Recently on another list one person gave Srila Prabhupada's Sagittarius rising birth details and stated as a fact that Srila Prabhupada was poisoned by his disciples . So I am completely inimical to the Sagittarius Lagna because I have watched it evolve . I'm sorry to have been long winded it is not usually my style but this is why as you say I am averse to the subject . You have stated that I am not objectively studying the subject but objectivity sometimes takes a back seat to other considerations . Thanks for asking and best wishes Nicholas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2001 Report Share Posted October 13, 2001 Dear Nicholas, Namaste - Thank you for communicating your views, and for explaining your aversion to the topic of rectifying Prabhupada's chart. As Wendy said in one post, persons argue in favor of what they would like the lagna to be, and thus the whole dialogue of discussing a great soul's chart - which could be extremely illuminating for everyone - becomes by far too emotional and volatile a topic. There were some sad and unfortunate rumors that went around following Prabhupada's passing, that you touched upon, but which I find too despicable to even mention directly. But you know what I am talking about. So, I will not repeat them here. Yes, the wrong kind of communication around these topics could perpetrate offense, and thus if you feel yourself getting angry with these topics, then it is best to drop the discussion. Frankly, Prabhupada did not care much about Jyotish or astrology. He talked about it as a "great science" on occasion, but he really didn't care if his lagna were this or that. All of his direct disciples knew this about him. So, the fact that he gave a clearly rounded off time of "4 PM" for his TOB, is not surprising, as he likely never really ventured into the topic that much anyway. Always quoting scripture, he emphasized that the hearing about, and glorification of Radha and Krsna, especially chanting of the Hare Krsna mantra, were the means by which love of Godhead and true Moksha were attained in Kali-yuga. Thus wasting time speculating over what someone's lagna was, or what his janma rasi was, was not something that he cared about, or indulged in. For me, Jyotish is a way of living, and a way to direct people to their proper Dharmic path. My discussion of Prabhupada's lagna as Sg, or Cp, mainly gave me a reason to meditate on him, and by doing so I have become blissful beyond recognition in this last two weeks or so. Prabhupada finds these discussions humorous, and I can almost hear him laughing. Case in point: Pursottam prays to Krsna, asking for illumination on Prabhupada's lagna, casts a Prashna chart, and gets Capricorn on the ascendant. I did the same, a few days ago, and got Sagittarius on the lagna, and even with the same planets in the 10th house as were in Prabhupada's (Sg lagna) chart. I look at the large picture of Prabhupada on my desk, and I can *feel* him laughing. I can hear him say smilingly, "Don't waste your time with all this nonsense - just chant Hare Krsna". So I digress, and will probably let the whole topic rest. It brings to mind the following words Prabhupada was fond of quoting, from Sripad Sankaracharya, who spoke to the endless and useless speculations of his disciples on non-dualistic philosophy: "Bhaja Govindam, bhaja Govindam, bhaja Govindam mudha-mate Samprapte, sanihite marane, nahi nahi rakshati dukrn karane" Translation: "Just worship Govinda, worship Govinda, worship Govinda you fools and rascals! All of your mental speculations will not save you at the time of death". That's all I have to say on this, and please pardon my offenses if I spoke disrespectfully to you. So far as what is the correct lagna, we shall probably never know, because Prabhupada doesn't care anyway. Best wishes, Robert ===================================== Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA Phone: 541-318-0248 visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail rk. rk and rkoch rkoch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2001 Report Share Posted October 13, 2001 >What started as uncomfortable feelings turned to complete animosity to the Sagittarius Lagna when Nalini went into print giving the astrological reasons why Srila Prabhupada was poisoned by his disciples based on the Sagittarius Lagna . This is a very serious misuse of astrology to label others as murderers particurly persons who wouldn't have a single astrological tool to defend themselves . < If this man was murdered by his disciples then that is really bad news but it would take more than astrology to prove this. He was an old man and may have expended too much energy with his disciples ,through the demands of travelling, establishing ashrams etc. This may look like death via disciples in a chart. I don't think this should hinder the pursuit of truth. I see the determination of the correct lagna as advancement in the use of astrological technique and I welcome further analysis by Robert on narayana and chara dasa. Regards Ron Make a great connection at Personals. http://personals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2001 Report Share Posted October 14, 2001 Dear Robert, As Wendy said in one post, > persons argue in favor of what they would like the lagna to be, and thus > the whole dialogue of discussing a great soul's chart - which could be > extremely illuminating for everyone - becomes by far too emotional and > volatile a topic. The fact is Robert that I have no reason to choose one lagna above the other. I am not a follower of Srila Prabhupada and therefore am not emotionally attached to the outcome. You on the other hand, as a sincere devotee of both S.P. and S.R., have an emotional commitment to *proving* the Sagittarius lagna. Your comment (below) left me a little bewildered and I wonder if you actually took the time to read the posts offered by the (so-called) "Cliff Note" astrologers. It's indeed sad Robert, that we cannot discuss issues without these constant innuendoes about the offerings and/or ability of other astrologers. It's unnecessary and extremely petty. >>>And as to your getting "depth, as opposed to width", so far I have not heard much in the way of depth from the astrological posts of those who prefer the "Cliff Note" (over-simplified) approach<<< Best Wishes, Wendy ========================== Wendy Vasicek: Vedic Astrologer http://welcome.to/Vedic Astrology/ wenvas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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