Guest guest Posted October 10, 2001 Report Share Posted October 10, 2001 Hello I also accept Capricorn Lagna. Prabhupada himself accepted Capricorn Lagna at least tacitly, in that, all his life the Horoscope used for him by his astrologers in India was Capricorn Lagna. a.. Das Goravani, a.. Are you positive about this? Are you taking 2ndhandinformation onthis point? The idea of the Sagit. Lagna came mostly from Nalini Kanta Das and his book. Nalini, a disciple of Prabhupada, who himself is Cap. Lagna, simply reasoned that Sagit. was more holy, or spiritual, than Capricorn. Nalini called Capric. "sinful" or something in his book. Anyway, many devotees used that book, and got used to thinking that way. a.. Das G- a.. Hey, come one, he presented logic for his statement. You only partly do it justice below. So the argument got rolling that way I think. Also, some people don't want to see planets in the 8th in Prabhupada's chart, but then again, Sri Caitanya has a planet in the 8th. I don't think we need to totally fear planets in the 8th. It's not JUST bad. It's also related to some interesting spiritual aspects in life. · Ok, but there are several planets there. For example, the heyday of the Hare Krishnamovement took place in the Ketu dasha. In the Capricorn chart, does Ketu in the evil eighth house with Jupiter and the ninth lord, the Sun, indicate any great spiritual achievement? I don't think so. · And the third lord of authorship sits in the eighth, too, according to Capricorn lagna. Fora person who penned and distributed millions of books during that dasha, you wouldn't expect theplanettobe in the eighth. It's a hard one to swallow. Mercury is fine, I know, but according to Sagittarius lagna, both Mercury as well as the third lord are well situated, extremely well. · And how much difference is there between the last degree of Sagittarius and the first ofCapricorn? Seven minutes. Seven minutes of time difference reported by a Hindu family in the end of the 1800s. Forget it, it is an open issue. It has to befound out by rectification. · And the Capricorn chart should have given a male older sibling. In the case of the Sagittarius chart, one older and pious sister is consistent enough with Saturn in the 11th and the 11th lord in a quadrant in a femininne sign. I've noted that a number of prominent Gurus in modern times are Capricorn rising, including the Subramuniya Swami (Hindusim Today's Editor/Leader). I think also Prakashananda Saraswati, if memory serves, who also really looks it. a.. This could mean anything. A number of difficulties arose in Prabhupadas movement which have ties to the 8th house, including amongst the persons who were immediately around him, his "main men" so to speak. I think the 8th house matters actually did show in his life, and in the mission he created. Also, his early life, had a number of issues arise, which could be tied to those placements. a.. The question is whether or not the eighth fromCapricorn shows a vipreet rajyoga. I think that the sun in his own sign broke that up. Regardless, Mars aspecting the 11th from Capricorn should have given an older brother. This is a really hard situation to accept. b.. The other logic that you bring up below is not so strong nor absolute, I don't think that you meant it to be. a.. Your Servant! a.. Dharmapada/Dean a.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2001 Report Share Posted October 10, 2001 Om Krsnaaya Namah Dear Dharmapada, Hare Krsna! I know your mail was directed specifically to Raghu, but I couldn't resist butting in :-) > > > a.. Are you positive about this? Are you taking > 2ndhandinformation onthis point? > Toward the end of his life, when three astrologers were asked to do readings one (Asutosh Ojha) used a Capricorn Lagna chart (as per the 4pm time Srila Prabhupada gave), one used Sagittarius, and one must have made some mistake in his ganita, and used Scorpio. Srila Prabhupada found the Capricorn reading to be most accurate, and requested a further reading from Ojha. In this, Ojha also accurately predicted Srila Prabhupada's departure in 1977, although not so openly. The Sagittarius astrologer predicted excellent health, and that Srila Prabhupada would live well into the 1980's (I think). > > > · Ok, but there are several planets there. For example, > the heyday of the Hare Krishnamovement took place in the Ketu > dasha. In the Capricorn chart, does Ketu in the evil eighth house > with Jupiter and the ninth lord, the Sun, indicate any great > spiritual achievement? I don't think so. > To me, Ketu is not at all as bad as you suggest. I consider the conjunction of the svakshetra Sun and Jupiter in the eighth to be a powerful Viparita Raja Yoga (even if not technically, it gives similar effects - after all, it is a Sarala yoga), and Ketu's close conjunction with Jupiter drains the postive energy from Jupiter, and instead leads Ketu to display it during his dasha. The sudden rise is exactly what you would expect from a VRY, and you can't get more sudden than from coming with nothing (materially speaking) to opening 108 temples, travelling around the globe 14 times, publishing many books in many languages and meeting many VIP's around the world, and all this after the age of seventy. > > > · And the third lord of authorship sits in the eighth, > too, according to Capricorn lagna. Fora person who penned and > distributed millions of books during that dasha, you wouldn't > expect theplanettobe in the eighth. It's a hard one to swallow. > Mercury is fine, I know, but according to Sagittarius lagna, both > Mercury as well as the third lord are well situated, extremely well. > True, the third Lord is in the eighth, but as I said he participates in an extraordinarily powerful VRY. Furthermore, the karaka for writing is exalted, and participates in a formidable raja yoga with raja yoga karaka Venus. This combination aspects the third house. Also note that the most important publishing and travel was done during the Ketu dasha. This is what one one expect from a powerful Ketu, tightly conjunct the third and twelfth Lord. > > > · And how much difference is there between the last degree > of Sagittarius and the first ofCapricorn? Seven minutes. Seven > minutes of time difference reported by a Hindu family in the end > of the 1800s. Forget it, it is an open issue. It has to befound > out by rectification. > I don't think this is a valid argument - firstly, Prabhupada gave 4pm as his TOB (not "around 4pm" etc). To go to Sagittarius Lagna, you have to go back about 35 minutes - It would be closer to round up the TOB to 3pm! So it's not just a seven minute difference. Secondly, Consider this. This is a strict Hindu family, that know the importance of astrology and call an astrologer pretty much immediately after the baby is born. They certainly would not have recorded the TOB as imprecisely as you suggest. Maybe five minutes either way. Finally, it is plausible that the clocks may not have been as accurate as we have now. But this does not mean that they lived in different time zones from their neighbours! Maybe ten minutes either way. So even if we are generous, it's likely the TOB is from 15:45-16:15. To go back twenty minutes further from this range appears a little shaky. Finally, consider the fact that Srila Prabhupada kept in touch with the astrologer who made his chart at birth when he was older. Even then, he, and therefore presumably the astrologer, both held the 4pm time to be accurate. > > · And the Capricorn chart should have given a male older > sibling. In the case of the Sagittarius chart, one older and > pious sister is consistent enough with Saturn in the 11th and > the 11th lord in a quadrant in a femininne sign. > Not necessarily. Though Mars's aspect on the eleventh may be suggestive of male elder siblings, the elevnth Lord Mars in a female sign, with a strong female planet may point to an elder sister. To my knowledge, there is no foolproof method to determine the gender of relatives, and basing a conclusion on Mars's aspect alone seems shaky, considering the contradictory indications of his placement as eleventh Lord. I can give you numerous (accurate) example charts where simple thumb-rules like this fail. Haribol! Pursottam P.S. BTW Dharmapada, how do you see Srila Prabhupada's marriage difficulties (apart from deb. Venus), as well as their timing, in the Sag chart? _______ Get your free @ address at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2001 Report Share Posted October 10, 2001 Dear Pursottam, Just a quickie on your point as follows: At 08:01 PM 10/10/01 +0100, you wrote: >(Dharmapada wrote): > > · And the third lord of authorship sits in the eighth, > > too, according to Capricorn lagna. Fora person who penned and > > distributed millions of books during that dasha, you wouldn't > > expect theplanettobe in the eighth. It's a hard one to swallow. > > Mercury is fine, I know, but according to Sagittarius lagna, both > > Mercury as well as the third lord are well situated, extremely well. > > Pursottam wrote: >True, the third Lord is in the eighth, but as I said he participates in an >extraordinarily powerful VRY. Furthermore, the karaka for writing is >exalted, and participates in a formidable raja yoga with raja yoga karaka >Venus. This combination aspects the third house. Also note that the most >important publishing and travel was done during the Ketu dasha. This is what >one one expect from a powerful Ketu, tightly conjunct the third and twelfth >Lord. My comment: Now, you have to see the *extent* to which a potential can manifest, through its Arudha. The Arudha of the third, if powerful, and well aspected, is going to show the extraordinary writing and publishing achievements of Prabhupada, more so than the 3rd house itself. Now check the Arudhas: in the Cp lagna chart, the A3 is Cp itself. The lord is exalted Saturn in the 10th, is aspected by Sun/Jupiter/Ketu, yet has not relation to the karaka of writing (Mercury) at all. There is no relation with Hora lagna either. Take the Sg lagna chart: A3 is Gemini, the 7th house, and is aspected by exalted Mercury from the 10th. Gemini is also the Hora lagna, indicating that much money was generated for the furthering of the mission, through the sale of his books. This combines the exalted lord of karma-sthana (Mercury), with the 7th house, and all the kendras as well. Thus the A3 for Sg is much more convincing, than it is for Cp lagna (in my mind, anyway). Comments welcome........ Best wishes, Robert ===================================== Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA Phone: 541-318-0248 visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail rk. rk and rkoch rkoch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2001 Report Share Posted October 10, 2001 > Toward the end of his life, when three astrologers were asked to do readings > one (Asutosh Ojha) used a Capricorn Lagna chart (as per the 4pm time Srila > Prabhupada gave), one used Sagittarius, and one must have made some mistake > in his ganita, and used Scorpio. Srila Prabhupada found the Capricorn > reading to be most accurate, Purushottama, How is this that Shrila Prabhupada " found " one reading to be more accurate? What was said about it? I was under the impression that His Divine Grace didn't take much stock in any astrology towards the end and simply went aong with some arragements that had been made to meet with some astrologers. and requested a further reading from Ojha. In > this, Ojha also accurately predicted Srila Prabhupada's departure in 1977, > although not so openly. The Sagittarius astrologer predicted excellent > health, and that Srila Prabhupada would live well into the 1980's (I think). Well, this could be a matter of a bad astrologer. Considering evidence like this doesn't help, and I am not trying to be a word juggler. > > · Ok, but there are several planets there. For example, > > the heyday of the Hare Krishnamovement took place in the Ketu > > dasha. In the Capricorn chart, does Ketu in the evil eighth house > > with Jupiter and the ninth lord, the Sun, indicate any great > > spiritual achievement? I don't think so. > > > > To me, Ketu is not at all as bad as you suggest. I consider the conjunction > of the svakshetra Sun and Jupiter in the eighth to be a powerful Viparita > Raja Yoga (even if not technically, it gives similar effects - after all, it > is a Sarala yoga), Well, the idea of a vipreetRaj Yoga is that afflictions of a trik by the 3rd, 6th, 11th and 12th lords " hurts " the evil of the trik house, so to speak, thereby producing good. But in the Capricorn chart, the vipreet raj yoga seems to be broken up by the sun in his own house. That is not the same as an affliction of the house by an evil lord. In and of itself, the sun is positive in the traditional way and the presence of bad lord jupiter and ketu is simply and affliction, then, not a vipreet raj yoga. I invite comments. and Ketu's close conjunction with Jupiter drains the > postive energy from Jupiter, and instead leads Ketu to display it during his > dasha. The sudden rise is exactly what you would expect from a VRY, and you > can't get more sudden than from coming with nothing (materially speaking) to > opening 108 temples, travelling around the globe 14 times, publishing many > books in many languages and meeting many VIP's around the world, and all > this after the age of seventy. > > > > > > > · And the third lord of authorship sits in the eighth, > > too, according to Capricorn lagna. Fora person who penned and > > distributed millions of books during that dasha, you wouldn't > > expect theplanettobe in the eighth. It's a hard one to swallow. > > Mercury is fine, I know, but according to Sagittarius lagna, both > > Mercury as well as the third lord are well situated, extremely well. > > > > True, the third Lord is in the eighth, but as I said he participates in an > extraordinarily powerful VRY. Furthermore, the karaka for writing is > exalted, and participates in a formidable raja yoga with raja yoga karaka > Venus. This combination aspects the third house. Also note that the most > important publishing and travel was done during the Ketu dasha. This is what > one one expect from a powerful Ketu, tightly conjunct the third and twelfth > Lord. Except that ketu doesn't take part in a Vipreet Raj Yoga, that seems to be a mistake. Then we simply have the lord of the house of authors in the evil eighth. this doesn'tfit. > > · And how much difference is there between the last degree > > of Sagittarius and the first ofCapricorn? Seven minutes. Seven > > minutes of time difference reported by a Hindu family in the end > > of the 1800s. Forget it, it is an open issue. It has to befound > > out by rectification. > > > > I don't think this is a valid argument - firstly, Prabhupada gave 4pm as his > TOB (not "around 4pm" etc). To go to Sagittarius Lagna, you have to go back > about 35 minutes - Yes, but the time zone reference book of Doris Chase Sloan, I believe it is, or maybe Time Changes, states that there was non-adhesion to a time zone of 5 1/2 in Bengal, that many were observing 5 hours as the time zone. And again, there is no confirmation of the time. It is easy to estimate. What was typical among Bengali families of 100 years ago? To strictly follow the clock? Hindus seem to have some other kind of notion of time, not at all like Germans or the British. It would be closer to round up the TOB to 3pm! So it's > not just a seven minute difference. Secondly, Consider this. This is a > strict Hindu family, that know the importance of astrology and call an > astrologer pretty much immediately after the baby is born. They certainly > would not have recorded the TOB as imprecisely as you suggest. Maybe five > minutes either way. How do you know? And again, there is the time zone problem. Finally, it is plausible that the clocks may not have > been as accurate as we have now. But this does not mean that they lived in > different time zones from their neighbours! Maybe ten minutes either way. So > even if we are generous, it's likely the TOB is from 15:45-16:15. To go back > twenty minutes further from this range appears a little shaky. Finally, > consider the fact that Srila Prabhupada kept in touch with the astrologer > who made his chart at birth when he was older. Even then, he, and therefore > presumably the astrologer, both held the 4pm time to be accurate. You don'tknowthese things. Andno one who felt strongly about Sagittarius ever had the opportunity of confronting His Divine Grace and " pleading " the case. > > · And the Capricorn chart should have given a male older > > sibling. In the case of the Sagittarius chart, one older and > > pious sister is consistent enough with Saturn in the 11th and > > the 11th lord in a quadrant in a femininne sign. > > > > Not necessarily. Though Mars's aspect on the eleventh may be suggestive of > male elder siblings, the elevnth Lord Mars in a female sign, with a strong > female planet may point to an elder sister. To my knowledge, there is no > foolproof method to determine the gender of relatives, and basing a > conclusion on Mars's aspect alone seems shaky, considering the contradictory > indications of his placement as eleventh Lord. I can give you numerous > (accurate) example charts where simple thumb-rules like this fail. The context for the older sibling question is this- Why weren't there more older siblings? The Capricorn chart has nothing " capping " or limiting the number. There should have been a few. You are right that the Moon is prominent, which means that there should have been a sister or sisters as well as a brother or two. Mars aspecting a male sign in the 11th should have given an older brother, even though Mars sits in a feminine sign. The Sagittarius lagna chart has such a cap to it- Saturn the planet oflimitation sits in the 11th. And in the Sag chart there is practically no male influence. Hence one older sister. What do you think? Robert Koch, your comments werevery interesting. YS, Dharmapada Dasa > > Haribol! > > Pursottam > > P.S. BTW Dharmapada, how do you see Srila Prabhupada's marriage difficulties > (apart from deb. Venus), as well as their timing, in the Sag chart? > > > _______ > > Get your free @ address at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2001 Report Share Posted October 10, 2001 Dear Robert, Can you please tell me which Ascendant, Shri K.N. Rao uses for him. I think it is Saggittarius. Manoj Make a great connection at Personals. http://personals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2001 Report Share Posted October 11, 2001 Om Krsnaaya Namah Namaste Robert, To continue on from my last mail: > > Now, you have to see the *extent* to which a potential can manifest, > through its Arudha. The Arudha of the third, if powerful, and well > aspected, is going to show the extraordinary writing and publishing > achievements of Prabhupada, more so than the 3rd house itself. Now check > the Arudhas: in the Cp lagna chart, the A3 is Cp itself. The lord is > exalted Saturn in the 10th, is aspected by Sun/Jupiter/Ketu, yet has not > relation to the karaka of writing (Mercury) at all. There is no > relation > with Hora lagna either. Take the Sg lagna chart: A3 is Gemini, the 7th > house, and is aspected by exalted Mercury from the 10th. Gemini is also > the Hora lagna, indicating that much money was generated for the > furthering > of the mission, through the sale of his books. This combines the exalted > lord of karma-sthana (Mercury), with the 7th house, and all the > kendras as > well. Thus the A3 for Sg is much more convincing, than it is for > Cp lagna > (in my mind, anyway). Comments welcome........ > > I can see your point that A3 must be strong for the physical manifestation of books, and other third house matters. But I think the strength of it in the Capricorn cannot be underestimated in light of the serious potential indicated in the rest of the chart. Furthermore, while Mercury's link with A3 is significant in the Sag chart, it is not absolutely necessary in the charts of successful authors. In the jyotish community, B V Raman and K N Rao are probably best known for the sheer number of books they wrote as well as their popularity. Yet in both charts, we find that A3 is not linked with Mercury. In Raman's chart, A3 lord is in the tenth participating in Dhana yogas. This placement is similar to Prabhupada's, at least as far A3 is concerned. In Rao's chart also, A3 is unrelated to Mercury, but is instead aspected by a variety of Raja and Dhana yogas, as well as by the third Lord. A3 co-lord Saturn is in the third, admittedly aspected by Mercury. However, certain logic also links A3 Lord in Prabhupada's chart to Mercury as well i.e. through his dispositor. My main point is that IMHO A3 conjunct A5 in the Lagna, and it's Lord extremely strong in karma-sthana is strong enough to promote authorship, and a relationship with Mercury is not absolutely necessary. Hare Krsna! Pursottam _______ Get your free @ address at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2001 Report Share Posted October 11, 2001 Om Krsnaaya Namah Hello again, Dharmapada, > > Purushottama, > > How is this that Shrila Prabhupada " found " one reading to be more > accurate? What was said about it? I was under the impression that His > Divine Grace didn't take much stock in any astrology towards the end > and simply went aong with some arragements that had been made to meet > with some astrologers. > Towards the end of his stay on Earth, Prabhupada had readings done by three astrologers, and the main focus of the readings was his ill-health, although some stuff about the past may have been carried out. One astrologer used a Scorpio rising chart, one a Sagittarius chart, and one a Capricorn chart. Shyamasundara Dasa did extensive research on Srila Prabhupada's readings, and quotes Tamal Krsna Goswami's Diary in his book on Srila Prabhupada's chart. I quote from this book: "[The 30th July entry:] “Srila Prabhupada had asked for us to consult an astrologer regarding whether or not he should travel. This afternoon reports came from three different astrologers. These were presented by Yasodanandana Swami, Dr. Sharma, and Bhakti Prema Swami. I had each give their reports separately so that we could see how they agreed and how they differed. Bhakti Prema’s was useless, Dr. Sharma’s was fair, and Yasodanandana Swami’s most reliable. But all three agreed on one point: the next two months would be the most difficult of Srila Prabhupada’s life and travelling was to be avoided. The astrologer Yasodanandana consulted [Ojha] recommended the wearing of a blue sapphire. After hearing all the reports which forecast Srila Prabhupada’s future, His Divine Grace said, ‘So it is not hopeless. At least for five weeks keep me very carefully. For the time being, no travel. Secure this blue sapphire and chant Hare Krishna.’”" The fact that Srila Prabhupada also had a more detailed second reading (involving Prashna, Tajaka etc.) done by the Capricorn astrologer, Asutosh Ojha, and not from the other two also strongly suggests that Prabhupada found this reading to be most accurate. Finally Ojha did accurately predict Prabhupada's departure to occur before February 1978. The other two astrologer's suggested Prabhupada would live well into the 1980's. > > Well, this could be a matter of a bad astrologer. Considering > evidence like this doesn't help, and I am not trying to be a word > juggler. > Valid point, but the fact is that Ojha's prediction was quite precise and accurate. I personally don't think he could have made such an accurate prediction from the wrong chart. > > > Well, the idea of a vipreetRaj Yoga is that afflictions of a trik by > the 3rd, 6th, 11th and 12th lords " hurts " the evil of the trik > house, so to speak, thereby producing good. But in the Capricorn > chart, the vipreet raj yoga seems to be broken up by the sun in his > own house. That is not the same as an affliction of the house by an > evil lord. In and of itself, the sun is positive in the traditional > way and the presence of bad lord jupiter and ketu is simply and > affliction, then, not a vipreet raj yoga. > I am aware that this is not strictly a Viparita Raja yoga. But I see the combination as giving similar effects. Sun svakshetra in the eighth creates Sarala yoga. The conjunction of two dussthana lords is conducive to Viparita raja yoga. Or another line of argument could be that the effects of the Sarala yoga are enhanced by the naturally benefic energy of Jupiter. But I seriously believe this to be a Viparita raja yoga. If we read a classical text for effects for the eight lord in the eighth, and then the twelfth lord in the eighth, we find positive comments. So this explains many of the positive results. In any case whether it is or is not, Ketu would have probably given good effects regardless of where it is placed, for it benefits tremendously from the close association of Jupiter, and here I believe it drains the positive effects of the yogas in the eighth. It makes perfect sense to me that Ketu's period gave positive results pertaining to the twelfth and the third, because Ketu is so closely conjunct the lord of these houses. > Yes, but the time zone reference book of Doris Chase Sloan, I believe > it is, or maybe Time Changes, states that there was non-adhesion to a > time zone of 5 1/2 in Bengal, that many were observing 5 hours as the > time zone. And again, there is no confirmation of the time. It is > easy to estimate. What was typical among Bengali families of 100 > years ago? To strictly follow the clock? Hindus seem to have some > other kind of notion of time, not at all like Germans or the British. > In a family that was astrology-concious at least to the extent that they consulted an astrologer soon after birth, I would say they would have some sense of accuracy. They certainly wouldn't round a time 36 minutes forwards. It would have been easier to round to 3pm, if they weren't concerned about accuracy. Also think about this. Whether or not the time recorded by Prabhupada's family was accurate this IS the time they would have given to the astrologer, right? And on the basis of this chart (4pm has to be Cap) the astrologer made the spectacular prediction that Prabhupada would cross the ocean at 70 and build 108 temples - a prediction that came out amazingly true. Now, the astrologer could not have rectified the time, for there were no significant life events for the newborn baby. And even if he had, Prabhupada would then have used this time. But the fact is that Prabhupada's family recorded 4pm, and this is what Prabhupada gave, so whether or not it was accurate, the chart based on this time MUST have been the chart used by the birth astrologer. And this is even more convincing when we consider the evidence that Prabhupada grew up knowing this astrologer...see below. > > Finally, it is plausible that the clocks may not have > > been as accurate as we have now. But this does not mean that they > lived in > > different time zones from their neighbours! Maybe ten minutes > either way. So > > even if we are generous, it's likely the TOB is from 15:45-16:15. > To go back > > twenty minutes further from this range appears a little shaky. > Finally, > > consider the fact that Srila Prabhupada kept in touch with the > astrologer > > who made his chart at birth when he was older. Even then, he, and > therefore > > presumably the astrologer, both held the 4pm time to be accurate. > > You don'tknowthese things. > I know three things (see reference after my points): 1. Prabhupada met the astrologer at his birth at Dr. Bose's lab, and knew this to be the same astrologer. This means Prabhupada would have known this astrologer as he grew up, like a family astrologer simply because they wouldn't have known each other if they hadn't met regularly while Prabhupada grew up. 2. Prabhupada gave a 4pm TOB throughout his life, indicating that this is what his previous astrologers, including the birth astrologer must have used, even after Prabhupada grew up. The proof for the fact that Prabhupada met the birth astrologer later in life is found in the following conversion, again found in Shyamasundara Dasa's book: Morning Walk Los Angeles, December 8, 1973 “Svarupa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada, are these astrologers, ah, are, can we believe in them, what they say? Called pseudo- science. Prabhupada: No. Astrology is a science. (break) ...that I shall go to the foreign countries and throughout the whole world I will establish so many temples, so many things... this... Svarupa Damodara: So they have some intelligence to tell that... Prabhupada: No, no. That is calculation, calculation. This astrologer, this astrologer was a very big astrologer and when I was in service, Dr. Bose’s laboratory, so Dr. Bose was treating one patient. He was vomiting blood. So he was treating as tuberculosis. Then he could not cure him after giving all medicine. Then he asked the astrologer, this astrologer who made my horoscope, ‘What is the matter? Panditji, can you tell?’ So he calculated. He said, ‘You are making wrong treatment. He has got some sore in the throat. It is not heart.’ And he treated, he was cured. Yasomatinandana: Vedic science is so perfect. Prabhupada: Yes. He knew it.” Note the sentence: "this astrologer who made my horoscope". > Andno one who felt strongly about Sagittarius ever had the > opportunity of confronting His Divine Grace and " pleading " the > case. > Prabhupada wouldn't have cared so much about astrological factors, because he wasn't an astrologer. He would have wanted to see the accuracy of the predictions, and on at least two recorded occasions - one at birth, and one concerning his death - Prabhupada found the astrologer's using Capricorn chart made astonishingly accurate predictions. > The Sagittarius lagna chart has such a cap to it- Saturn the planet > oflimitation sits in the 11th. And in the Sag chart there is > practically no male influence. Hence one older sister. > > What do you think? Robert Koch, your comments werevery interesting. > If discussed this in my other mail. Jaya Govinda, Pursottam _______ Get your free @ address at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2001 Report Share Posted October 11, 2001 Om Gurave Namah Dear Pursottam, I can see that you are taking the debate re: Prabhupada's lagna very seriously, and that is a positive thing, regardless of what the actual lagna may be. After all, discussing even the horoscope of a great soul brings auspicious karmic benefits. There is no doubt about this. So keep up the good work - I will respond to your earlier post from this morning later, but let me comment briefly on the following for now: At 10:59 PM 10/11/01 +0100, you wrote: >I can see your point that A3 must be strong for the physical manifestation >of books, and other third house matters. But I think the strength of it in >the Capricorn cannot be underestimated in light of the serious potential >indicated in the rest of the chart. Furthermore, while Mercury's link with >A3 is significant in the Sag chart, it is not absolutely necessary in the >charts of successful authors. In the jyotish community, B V Raman and K N >Rao are probably best known for the sheer number of books they wrote as well >as their popularity. Yet in both charts, we find that A3 is not linked with >Mercury. In Raman's chart, A3 lord is in the tenth participating in Dhana >yogas. This placement is similar to Prabhupada's, at least as far A3 is >concerned. In Rao's chart also, A3 is unrelated to Mercury, but is instead >aspected by a variety of Raja and Dhana yogas, as well as by the third Lord. >A3 co-lord Saturn is in the third, admittedly aspected by Mercury. However, >certain logic also links A3 Lord in Prabhupada's chart to Mercury as well >i.e. through his dispositor. These are good points of reference, i.e. the charts of B.V. Raman, and Sri K.N. Rao. However, those of us who were within the vortex of Prabhupada's movement back in the early 70's, know how much he stressed the distribution of his books world-wide. In fact, the books were the foundation of his movement, and he preferred their publication and distribution, even over the many gorgeous ISKCON temples of Radha and Krsna that were created under his guidance. Considering this, exalted Mercury as 10th lord, in kendra to A3 Gemini, is by far more telling of this emphasis of his. Note that A3 Gemini is also Rajya-pada (10th Arudha) in the Sg chart as well. He wrote and published translations and commentaries on over 120 volumes of Vedic literature in a period of only 7 or 8 years before he passed away. It was, and remains, a monumental accomplishment. For this, there must be special emphasis on kendras, Mercury, A3, and the Atmakaraka, to occur. Note AK Rahu in the 3rd, Aq., with its lord Saturn exalted in the 11th. The dispositor Venus joins exalted Mercury in the 10th. This is satisfying, given the enormity of Prabhupada's literary accomplishments. >My main point is that IMHO A3 conjunct A5 in the Lagna, and it's Lord >extremely strong in karma-sthana is strong enough to promote authorship, and >a relationship with Mercury is not absolutely necessary. My opinion: NOT strong enough, in consideration of his desire and achievement in writing and publishing. Best wishes, Robert ===================================== Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer Faculty Member, SJVC and ACVA Phone: 541-318-0248 visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail rk. rk and rkoch rkoch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2001 Report Share Posted October 11, 2001 Purushottama Dasa, The fact that Shrila Prabhupada favored the Capricorn chart at the end of his life doesn't mean that he pronounced it to be the good one. He wasn't schooled in astrology which is why he went to an astrologer in the first place. Did His Divine Grace know to ask the astrologer why the Capricorn chart shows older siblings of both sexes and Ketu in the eighth when it was Ketu's period which had brought so much success? That OjaimpressedShrila Prabhupada could be due to many things, even a good prediction can be made for the wrong reasons. > I am aware that this is not strictly a Viparita Raja yoga. But I see the > combination as giving similar effects. But this is just the point I am making, only it has been lost on you. The factthat the Sun is there in his own sign has broken up the basic " Vipreet " rationale. Sun svakshetra in the eighth creates > Sarala yoga. The sun by himself, but he is with Ketu of all planetsfor the Sun to be with, who affflicts in the eighth. Let's not forget the ABCs here. The conjunction of two dussthana lords is conducive to Viparita > raja yoga. Yes, conducive, but the vipreet effect is broken up by a planet in his own sign. Or another line of argument could be that the effects of the > Sarala yoga are enhanced by the naturally benefic energy of Jupiter. Not! Since the Sun has broken up the vipreet effect, Jupiter is simply a bad lord in the eight with Ketu. But I > seriously believe this to be a Viparita raja yoga. If we read a classical > text for effects for the eight lord in the eighth, and then the twelfth lord > in the eighth, we find positive comments. You know how I feel about the Sun being there in his own sign. On onehand, you invokethe positive results of the Saralayoga due to theSun in his own sign in the eighth, then invoke the vipreet logic which comes about when malefic lords occupy the eighth, the idea being that the evil lordship has destroyed the evil of the house thereby producing good. You strongly contradict yourself. I'll go along with some of the sarala yoga thinking, which means that the Sun in his own sign has not given Jupiter carte blanch to destroy the bad of the bad to thereby produce good. I hope that you can be honest enough to recognise the way in which you have applied contradictory logic. So this explains many of the > positive results. > > In any case whether it is or is not, Ketu would have probably given good > effects regardless of where it is placed, for it benefits tremendously from > the close association of Jupiter, and here I believe it drains the positive > effects of the yogas in the eighth. It makes perfect sense to me that Ketu's > period gave positive results pertaining to the twelfth and the third, > because Ketu is so closely conjunct the lord of these houses. Your logic does not seem to follow generally accepted application of the astrological definitions and techniques and such. I have snipped our comments in relation to the validity of the birth time,but I will respond. So what are you saying, that we can rely on his family to have made all considerations and that they are vouching for lagna even though they are long gone? I have already explained thatsome parts of Bengal were on one time zone, and the other half on the time zone and a half. There is plenty of reason to suspect error. And you make assumptions about his family being astrologically concerned. They wouldn't have to be, they might not have understood the issues surrounding the proper moment of birth, even. We can't count on them if we haven't even had to opportunity to question them in this regard. And on the basis of this chart (4pm has to be Cap) > the astrologer made the spectacular prediction that Prabhupada would cross > the ocean at 70 and build 108 temples - a prediction that came out amazingly > true. Snip the chart based on this time MUST have been the chart used by > the birth astrologer. As I pointed out, You made a weak case for establishing 4:00 for the birth time, then you go on to assume- and assume only- that 4:00 was the timeused to justify the prediction that would cross the ocean at 70 and build 108 temples. The only thing that you have done is attribute fact to assumptions. And then I am supposed to accept your interpretations of the planetary dispositions? Isn't this something. And this is even more convincing when we consider the > evidence that Prabhupada grew up knowing this astrologer...see below. No, I disagree. You read into things in this regard and invent connections. > > Finally, it is plausible that the clocks may not have > > > been as accurate as we have now. But this does not mean that they > > lived in > > > different time zones from their neighbours! Maybe ten minutes > > either way. So > > > even if we are generous, it's likely the TOB is from 15:45- 16:15. > > To go back > > > twenty minutes further from this range appears a little shaky. Well, how about ten minutes and then 30 minutes from using a different time zone? How about the fact that the Capricorn chart shows older brothers and sisters, and from there you go figure out the birth time? > > Finally, > > > consider the fact that Srila Prabhupada kept in touch with the > > astrologer > > > who made his chart at birth when he was older. This is where you read into things in this regard and invent connections. Below, you say: " Then he asked the astrologer, this astrologer who made my horoscope," and you then say " Note the sentence: ' this astrologer who made my horoscope'". Hold on- His Divine Grace didn'tsay,forexample " This was the same astrologer who did my birth chart when I was born and made those predictions." He only said " this astrologer who made my horoscope," which seems only to say that this astrologer did my horoscope. Prabhupada still spoke choppy English atthat time, and never really quit speaking choppy English. Throughout your explanations you have repeatedly stretched things and made connections which aren't there, even in your actual interpretation. I don't think that you have the resources to be able to comment nor interpret in this regard. Sorry! Your Servant, Dharmapada Even then, he, and > > therefore > > > presumably the astrologer, both held the 4pm time to be accurate. > > > > You don'tknowthese things. > > > > I know three things (see reference after my points): > > 1. Prabhupada met the astrologer at his birth at Dr. Bose's lab, and knew > this to be the same astrologer. This means Prabhupada would have known this > astrologer as he grew up, like a family astrologer simply because they > wouldn't have known each other if they hadn't met regularly while Prabhupada > grew up. > > 2. Prabhupada gave a 4pm TOB throughout his life, indicating that this is > what his previous astrologers, including the birth astrologer must have > used, even after Prabhupada grew up. > > The proof for the fact that Prabhupada met the birth astrologer later in > life is found in the following conversion, again found in Shyamasundara > Dasa's book: > > Morning Walk > > Los Angeles, December 8, 1973 > > "Svarupa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada, are these astrologers, ah, are, can we > believe in them, what they say? Called pseudo- science. > Prabhupada: No. Astrology is a science. (break) ...that I shall go to the > foreign countries and throughout the whole world I will establish so many > temples, so many things... this... > Svarupa Damodara: So they have some intelligence to tell that... > Prabhupada: No, no. That is calculation, calculation. This astrologer, this > astrologer was a very big astrologer and when I was in service, Dr. Bose's > laboratory, so Dr. Bose was treating one patient. He was vomiting blood. So > he was treating as tuberculosis. Then he could not cure him after giving all > medicine. Then he asked the astrologer, this astrologer who made my > horoscope, `What is the matter? Panditji, can you tell?' So he calculated. > He said, `You are making wrong treatment. He has got some sore in the > throat. It is not heart.' And he treated, he was cured. > Yasomatinandana: Vedic science is so perfect. > Prabhupada: Yes. He knew it." > > Note the sentence: "this astrologer who made my horoscope". > > > > Andno one who felt strongly about Sagittarius ever had the > > opportunity of confronting His Divine Grace and " pleading " the > > case. > > > > Prabhupada wouldn't have cared so much about astrological factors, because > he wasn't an astrologer. He would have wanted to see the accuracy of the > predictions, and on at least two recorded occasions - one at birth, and one > concerning his death - Prabhupada found the astrologer's using Capricorn > chart made astonishingly accurate predictions. > > > The Sagittarius lagna chart has such a cap to it- Saturn the planet > > oflimitation sits in the 11th. And in the Sag chart there is > > practically no male influence. Hence one older sister. > > > > What do you think? Robert Koch, your comments werevery interesting. > > > > If discussed this in my other mail. > > Jaya Govinda, > > Pursottam > > > _______ > > Get your free @ address at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2001 Report Share Posted October 12, 2001 Om Krsnaaya Namah Dear Dharmapada, > The fact that Shrila Prabhupada favored the Capricorn chart at the > end of his life doesn't mean that he pronounced it to be the good > one. He wasn't schooled in astrology which is why he went to an > astrologer in the first place. Did His Divine Grace know to ask the Exactly. He wouldn't have cared who found which planet where suggesting what results. Telling him that this aspect suggests elder brother's etc. wouldn't matter to him as he was not an astrologer. Instead of hindsight arguments, he would have taken successful predictions as showing the accuracy of a chart - after all, accurate prediction is the best test of rectification. And this is where Ojha succeeded. > astrologer why the Capricorn chart shows older siblings of both sexes This is debatable - again, I see no conflict between real life, and the Capricorn chart. > and Ketu in the eighth when it was Ketu's period which had brought so > much success? That OjaimpressedShrila Prabhupada could be due to many > things, even a good prediction can be made for the wrong reasons. > But many other astrologers (even aparat from myself) consider Ketu's position in the chart to be excellent. Just becuase the eighth is a dussthana, the positive benefits it gets (especially from Jupiter) are not nullified. > > But this is just the point I am making, only it has been lost on you. > The factthat the Sun is there in his own sign has broken up the > basic " Vipreet " rationale. > > I know, and I keep saying that this is not VRY in a technical sense, but the placements give similar results anyway. While Jupiter didn't give the results, Ketu sponges Jupiter's benefic energy through close association, and derives benefit from his svakshetra dispositor. This makes Ketu tremendously powerful to do good. If we go to the classics: "In case the twelfth Lord is gone to the eighth house, the native will always have gains, will speak affibly, will enjoy a medium span of life and he will be endowed with all good qualities." (BPHS 23:140) "If the lord of the 12th house is placed in the 8th, the native will experience happiness and unhappiness in almost equal amounts. Benefic combinations cause auspicious results to happen. If there is combination with the lord of the 6th house, the period will prove to be extremely auspicious and cause good results to happen. Also, the effects will be modified by the nature of the planets associated with the lord of the 12th house." (Satya Jatakam 4.12.8) "When the lord of the 12th house occupies the 2nd or the 8th, the natives devotion to Lord Krsna will be immense. He will be endowed with all good qualities and will speak kindly. He will be charitably disposed." (Sanketanidhi 6.98) "If any one of the following four Yogas takes place-(1) Lord of the 8th in the 12th or the 6th; (2) Lord of the 6th being placed in the 8th or the 12th; (3) Lord of the 12th being in the 6th or the 8th; (4) the said three lords being connected in any way, by mutual exchange, mutual aspect or conjunction and at the same time are free from such relation with other planets - the person born will become a great king lording over other kings and blessed with fame and wealth." (Uttara Kalamrta 4:22) I am not quoting these classics so that we apply the combinations verbatim to each chart, but to illustrate that as per the principles of Parasari astrology the eighth house combination is a good one in Prabhupada's chart. > You know how I feel about the Sun being there in his own sign. On > onehand, you invokethe positive results of the Saralayoga due to > theSun in his own sign in the eighth, then invoke the vipreet logic > which comes about when malefic lords occupy the eighth, the idea > being that the evil lordship has destroyed the evil of the house > thereby producing good. You strongly contradict yourself. I'll go > along with some of the sarala yoga thinking, which means that the Sun > in his own sign has not given Jupiter carte blanch to destroy the bad > of the bad to thereby produce good. > > I hope that you can be honest enough to recognise the way in which > you have applied contradictory logic. > I fully realise that the various principles I presented do contradict eact other. To me it is a Viparita Raja yoga (as good as). I brought up the Sarala yoga etc. to show that no matter which way you look at it, the eighth house combination is positive and not evil. I stick with the VRY yoga. > tremendously from > > the close association of Jupiter, and here I believe it drains the > positive > > effects of the yogas in the eighth. It makes perfect sense to me > that Ketu's > > period gave positive results pertaining to the twelfth and the > third, > > because Ketu is so closely conjunct the lord of these houses. > > > Your logic does not seem to follow generally accepted application of > the astrological definitions and techniques and such. > Am I incorrect in thinking that the Chaya Graha's give the results of planets they are associated with, especially if closely associated? "Rahu gives good or bad effects depending upon the nature of the planet he associates with. That planet, though good and benefic by himself, will due to his association with Rahu, specially cause evil effects during the concluding period of his dasa." (Phaladipika 20:39) Seems "generally accepted" enough to me. > > So what are you saying, that we can rely on his family to have made > all considerations and that they are vouching for lagna even though > they are long gone? I have already explained thatsome parts of Bengal <Snip> > birth time, then you go on to assume- and assume only- that 4:00 was > the timeused to justify the prediction that would cross the ocean at > 70 and build 108 temples. The only thing that you have done is > attribute fact to assumptions. Here you contradict yourself. You say that the 4pm time was recorded by the family imprecisely. Yet you imply they would give an alternative TOB to the astrologer. Why??? > > And then I am supposed to accept your interpretations of the > planetary dispositions? Isn't this something. > > By the same token, am I supposed to accept your interpretations of the planetary dispositions? Isn't that the point of this discussion. We are here to listen to and to respond to each other's arguments, peacefully. > > How about the fact that the Capricorn chart shows older brothers and > sisters, and from there you go figure out the birth time? > In you opinion only! I have said many times why I find the Capricorn chart clear in explaining the lack of elder brothers. > > Hold on- His Divine Grace didn'tsay,forexample " This was the same > astrologer who did my birth chart when I was born and made those > predictions." He only said " this astrologer who made my horoscope," > which seems only to say that this astrologer did my horoscope. The reason for accepting this to be the same astrologer as the birth astrologer is that in the line before this, Srila Prabhupada indicates that astrology was a science, because an astrologer had made the prediction that "that I shall go to the foreign countries and throughout the whole world I will establish so many temples, so many things" and this was done as far as we know by his birth astrologer. Furthermore, in India, many people do have a family astrologer. It's not an unusual thing. > > Throughout your explanations you have repeatedly stretched things and > made connections which aren't there, even in your actual > interpretation. > > I don't think that you have the resources to be able to comment nor > interpret in this regard. > > Sorry! > No need to apologise - you have a strong opinion and there is nothing wrong with that as long as we keep things at a peaceful level. If we do this, analysis of charts such as this allows us an opportunity to serve Krsna and Prabhupada through our study of Jyotish. In any case I have strong opinions also, and I think that your view of the Capricorn eighth house is also over simplified, and your idea that Capricorn should definitely give brothers is not a strong one. But none of this is a personal attack. Just what I see to be weaknesses in your astrological argument, for this is what we are here to point out, as you have done with mine. Jaya Radhe, Pursottam _______ Get your free @ address at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2001 Report Share Posted October 12, 2001 > Exactly. He wouldn't have cared who found which planet where suggesting what > results. Telling him that this aspect suggests elder brother's etc. wouldn't > matter to him as he was not an astrologer. Instead of hindsight arguments, > he would have taken successful predictions as showing the accuracy of a > chart - after all, accurate prediction is the best test of rectification. > And this is where Ojha succeeded. Purushottama, How do you know? What was said? Shrila Prabhupada might have cooperated with Oja for any number of reasons, maybe even just to be particularly gracious to him. The fact that Shrila prabhupada did so does not confirm anything about the validity of the chart- Shrila Prabhupada never claimed to bean astrologer, nor did he make any formal pronouncement on the subject. > > > astrologer why the Capricorn chart shows older siblings of both sexes > > This is debatable - again, I see no conflict between real life, and the > Capricorn chart. Purushottama Dasa- It doesn't seem that you have been able to present any standard interpretation to make it debatable. The Capricorn chart shows various older siblings, of both sexes. > But many other astrologers (even aparat from myself) consider Ketu's > position in the chart to be excellent. Just becuase the eighth is a > dussthana, The more you speak, the paler you wane! As well as any astrologe who joins you. Ketu in the eighth performs very poorly, I don't know what else to say. If it *were* to perform well, it would have to be strengthened somehow. Jupiter is the eighth is hardly a source of buoyancy; not even a suggestion of vipreet logic begins to manifest, technical or otherwise, because the Sun provides enough of the traditional type of strength ( not much ) to prevent any vipreet effect. Ketu is the moksha-karaka, and forms Guru Chandala yoga, too. When does he doone and when does he do the other? In the case of indicating moksha, Jupiter's effect could certainly be there. In the case of the Guru Chandala yoga, by very definition Jupiter sits with Ketu. When the combination gets dignified, then moksha can be indicated. But when afflicted, the combination indicates a degradation of one's religious principles. I think that when Ketu sits with Jupiter in the eighth, we have to think along the lines of Guru Chandala yoga. You and the astrologers who think highly of the combination in the eighth are simply mistaking what you see, unable to tell the difference between a guru chandala yoga and a divine combination. > I know, and I keep saying that this is not VRY in a technical sense, but the > placements give similar results anyway. No " sense " of a vipreet yoga has begun to manifest as the sun in his own sign doesn't allow the bad of the house to be destroyed in order to produce any good. Your application of dictums below is mechanical and misplaced. You are really interpreting over your head. If it weren't a matter of Shrila Prabhupada's chart, Iprobably wouldn't bother confronnting you. Usually time matures us all. Dharmapada While Jupiter didn't give the > results, Ketu sponges Jupiter's benefic energy through close association, > and derives benefit from his svakshetra dispositor. This makes Ketu > tremendously powerful to do good. If we go to the classics: > > "In case the twelfth Lord is gone to the eighth house, the native will > always have gains, will speak affibly, will enjoy a medium span of life and > he will be endowed with all good qualities." (BPHS 23:140) > > "If the lord of the 12th house is placed in the 8th, the native will > experience happiness and unhappiness in almost equal amounts. Benefic > combinations cause auspicious results to happen. If there is combination > with the lord of the 6th house, the period will prove to be extremely > auspicious and cause good results to happen. Also, the effects will be > modified by the nature of the planets associated with the lord of the 12th > house." (Satya Jatakam 4.12.8) > > "When the lord of the 12th house occupies the 2nd or the 8th, the natives > devotion to Lord Krsna will be immense. He will be endowed with all good > qualities and will speak kindly. He will be charitably disposed." > (Sanketanidhi 6.98) > > "If any one of the following four Yogas takes place-(1) Lord of the 8th in > the 12th or the 6th; (2) Lord of the 6th being placed in the 8th or the > 12th; (3) Lord of the 12th being in the 6th or the 8th; (4) the said three > lords being connected in any way, by mutual exchange, mutual aspect or > conjunction and at the same time are free from such relation with other > planets - the person born will become a great king lording over other kings > and blessed with fame and wealth." (Uttara Kalamrta 4:22) > > I am not quoting these classics so that we apply the combinations verbatim > to each chart, but to illustrate that as per the principles of Parasari > astrology the eighth house combination is a good one in Prabhupada's chart. > > > You know how I feel about the Sun being there in his own sign. On > > onehand, you invokethe positive results of the Saralayoga due to > > theSun in his own sign in the eighth, then invoke the vipreet logic > > which comes about when malefic lords occupy the eighth, the idea > > being that the evil lordship has destroyed the evil of the house > > thereby producing good. You strongly contradict yourself. I'll go > > along with some of the sarala yoga thinking, which means that the Sun > > in his own sign has not given Jupiter carte blanch to destroy the bad > > of the bad to thereby produce good. > > > > I hope that you can be honest enough to recognise the way in which > > you have applied contradictory logic. > > > > I fully realise that the various principles I presented do contradict eact > other. To me it is a Viparita Raja yoga (as good as). I brought up the > Sarala yoga etc. to show that no matter which way you look at it, the eighth > house combination is positive and not evil. I stick with the VRY yoga. > > > > tremendously from > > > the close association of Jupiter, and here I believe it drains the > > positive > > > effects of the yogas in the eighth. It makes perfect sense to me > > that Ketu's > > > period gave positive results pertaining to the twelfth and the > > third, > > > because Ketu is so closely conjunct the lord of these houses. > > > > > > Your logic does not seem to follow generally accepted application of > > the astrological definitions and techniques and such. > > > > Am I incorrect in thinking that the Chaya Graha's give the results of > planets they are associated with, especially if closely associated? > > "Rahu gives good or bad effects depending upon the nature of the planet he > associates with. That planet, though good and benefic by himself, will due > to his association with Rahu, specially cause evil effects during the > concluding period of his dasa." (Phaladipika 20:39) > > Seems "generally accepted" enough to me. > > > > > So what are you saying, that we can rely on his family to have made > > all considerations and that they are vouching for lagna even though > > they are long gone? I have already explained thatsome parts of Bengal > > <Snip> > > > birth time, then you go on to assume- and assume only- that 4:00 was > > the timeused to justify the prediction that would cross the ocean at > > 70 and build 108 temples. The only thing that you have done is > > attribute fact to assumptions. > > Here you contradict yourself. You say that the 4pm time was recorded by the > family imprecisely. Yet you imply they would give an alternative TOB to the > astrologer. Why??? > > > > > And then I am supposed to accept your interpretations of the > > planetary dispositions? Isn't this something. > > > > > > By the same token, am I supposed to accept your interpretations of the > planetary dispositions? Isn't that the point of this discussion. We are here > to listen to and to respond to each other's arguments, peacefully. > > > > > How about the fact that the Capricorn chart shows older brothers and > > sisters, and from there you go figure out the birth time? > > > > In you opinion only! I have said many times why I find the Capricorn chart > clear in explaining the lack of elder brothers. > > > > > Hold on- His Divine Grace didn'tsay,forexample " This was the same > > astrologer who did my birth chart when I was born and made those > > predictions." He only said " this astrologer who made my horoscope," > > which seems only to say that this astrologer did my horoscope. > > The reason for accepting this to be the same astrologer as the birth > astrologer is that in the line before this, Srila Prabhupada indicates that > astrology was a science, because an astrologer had made the prediction that > "that I shall go to the foreign countries and throughout the whole world I > will establish so many temples, so many things" and this was done as far as > we know by his birth astrologer. Furthermore, in India, many people do have > a family astrologer. It's not an unusual thing. > > > > > Throughout your explanations you have repeatedly stretched things and > > made connections which aren't there, even in your actual > > interpretation. > > > > I don't think that you have the resources to be able to comment nor > > interpret in this regard. > > > > Sorry! > > > > No need to apologise - you have a strong opinion and there is nothing wrong > with that as long as we keep things at a peaceful level. If we do this, > analysis of charts such as this allows us an opportunity to serve Krsna and > Prabhupada through our study of Jyotish. In any case I have strong opinions > also, and I think that your view of the Capricorn eighth house is also over > simplified, and your idea that Capricorn should definitely give brothers is > not a strong one. But none of this is a personal attack. Just what I see to > be weaknesses in your astrological argument, for this is what we are here to > point out, as you have done with mine. > > Jaya Radhe, > > Pursottam > > > _______ > > Get your free @ address at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2001 Report Share Posted October 12, 2001 Om Krsnaaya Namah Hi Dharmapada, Hare Krsna. > of a > > chart - after all, accurate prediction is the best test of > rectification. > > And this is where Ojha succeeded. > > Purushottama, > > How do you know? What was said? Shrila Prabhupada might have How do I know what? That Ojha made accurate predictions? Because I have seen the charts prepared by the three astrologers. For the full details, please see Shyamasundara Dasa's book. > any standard interpretation to make it debatable. The Capricorn chart > shows various older siblings, of both sexes. > The predominant influence is female, and the restriction is caused by the severe weakness of the karaka for elder siblings, Jupiter although so far I have hesitated to mention this because we differ in our assignment of karakatva. > > Ketu in the eighth performs very poorly, I don't know what else to > say. If it *were* to perform well, it would have to be strengthened > somehow. Jupiter is the eighth is hardly a source of buoyancy; not I just can't agree. Jupiter is a powerful natural benefic. His extremely close conjunction with Ketu benefits Ketu greatly. Ketu's dispositor Sun is also in it's own sign. Ketu is able to give excellent results. > even a suggestion of vipreet logic begins to manifest, technical or > otherwise, because the Sun provides enough of the traditional type of > strength ( not much ) to prevent any vipreet effect. > Of the four combinations given in Uttara Kalamrta, the last is "the said three lords being connected in any way, by mutual exchange, mutual aspect or conjunction and at the same time are free from such relation with other planets". Though Ketu is an extra planet, being a chaya graha, it took the effects and gave them in Ketu Dasha. Contemporary jyotishi Sandeep Kumar also says that if lord of trika houses "have mutual aspect, or are posited together in ANY of the Trik houses they become powerful and form Viparita Raja Yoga." Of these two references the former is a well-accepted classic, while the latter is a well-known jyotishi, who has been awarded with titles by institutions such as ICAS. Therefore, there is Viparita Raja yoga, and I think you should understand that just because others do not agree with your opinion of a chart or combination, they are not automatically in the wrong. > Ketu is the moksha-karaka, and forms Guru Chandala yoga, too. When > does he doone and when does he do the other? In the case of Guru Chandala yoga is usually formed by Rahu-Jup. In fact K N Rao's research suggests that Jup-Ket is a very spiritual combination. > sits with Jupiter in the eighth, we have to think along the lines of > Guru Chandala yoga. You and the astrologers who think highly of the > combination in the eighth are simply mistaking what you see, unable > to tell the difference between a guru chandala yoga and a divine > combination. > Not being personal, and no offence, but I think the same thing about your interpretation of the eighth in the Capricorn chart. Haribol, Pursottam _______ Get your free @ address at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2001 Report Share Posted October 12, 2001 gjlist, "Pursottam" <pursottam_dabasia> wrote: > Om Krsnaaya Namah > > Hi Dharmapada, > > Hare Krsna. > > > of a > > > chart - after all, accurate prediction is the best test of > > rectification. > > > And this is where Ojha succeeded. > > > > Purushottama, > > > > How do you know? What was said? Shrila Prabhupada might have > > How do I know what? That Ojha made accurate predictions? Because I have seen > the charts prepared by the three astrologers. For the full details, please > see Shyamasundara Dasa's book. Well, I don't have his book, and here in S. America, it isn't easy to find. I would be interested in verifying exactly what was said, and what the prediction was based on. Until I doso, Ican'treally comment on this. By the same token, unless you reproduce it by quoting, you can't really cite his authority. > > any standard interpretation to make it debatable. The Capricorn chart > > shows various older siblings, of both sexes. > > > > The predominant influence is female, and the restriction is caused by the > severe weakness of the karaka for elder siblings, Jupiter although so far I > have hesitated to mention this because we differ in our assignment of > karakatva. I have already pointed out that your karakatva is non-standard. > > Ketu in the eighth performs very poorly, I don't know what else to > > say. If it *were* to perform well, it would have to be strengthened > > somehow. Jupiter is the eighth is hardly a source of buoyancy; > I just can't agree. Jupiter is a powerful natural benefic. His extremely > close conjunction with Ketu benefits Ketu greatly. Ketu's dispositor Sun is > also in it's own sign. Ketu is able to give excellent results. Since when is Jupiter in the eighth described as being powerful? Benefics in the eitghth become feeble. Your logic is continually off the wall or misapplied, propelled by your own enthusiasm for it. > > not even a suggestion of vipreet logic begins to manifest, technical or > > otherwise, because the Sun provides enough of the traditional type of > > strength ( not much ) to prevent any vipreet effect. > > > > Of the four combinations given in Uttara Kalamrta, the last is "the said > three lords being connected in any way, by mutual exchange, mutual aspect or > conjunction and at the same time are free from such relation with other > planets". Mechanical interpretations won't get you far because there is always a circumstance which is not covered by the dictum verbatim. The logic behind a vipreet raj yoga is that there is some sense of vipreet effect, an opposite effect, that the evil lords afflict the house so absolutely that they kill the bad and produce good. The sun in his own sign provides the normal type of strength which doesn't permit anything vipreet to take place. Again, your interpretations are non-standard, off-the-wall or misapplied. Dharmapada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.