Different types of karma and free will

[Guest guest]

Hare krishna Das Gauravani prabhu

obeisances

thankyou for this post.....

unfortunately i don't have time to write much at the moment because i'm

looking after my mother who has cancer..but it's so nice to read enlightening

posts when i have time

y.s

stavavali d.d

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I think from the relative viewpoint, we seem to have some free will.

 

But from the absolute view, we don't.

 

But we can't live and breathe in the absolute in this body, so we always

revert to the relative.

 

A person cannot think and act in choice, and take action to achieve

possibilities, without the opportunities to have such thoughts and

perform such actions, so they again rely on their base of basic karma to

"add" to their base.

 

A persons choosing capacity is obviously given with their base, so their

choices are not free.

 

In order for basic things to happen at any time, like a car crash, then

both cars have to be there at that moment, at that time, for the crash

to occur. If both persons were excercising free will, then how come they

ended up right where their karma says they should be to suffer?

 

If one "chose" to "change" their life, do a puja, do a Yagya, then how

come they were still there for their karmic plan?

 

There is no free will ultimately.

 

BUT!

 

We don't live and think in the absolute. We live in the relative. Even

Saints do.

 

We have to, we are forced to, experience each moment as IF we are

choosing. That's how it feels. But remember, you're floating in an ocean

of matter, you're on the surface of a volitile ball in space, spinning

at 500 miles per hour, and all this cosmic junk we call planets and

stars is fated to DIE, and so shall all things on them.

 

So, how free are you or we? Not very. Not at all.

 

It's a planned lesson set, it's a Shiksha Gar, or University of Truth.

We are being raised up through pain to figure it all out.

 

The goal is to be detached, humble, a servant, transcendental to

circumstances. The reason is, full opulance awaits us, but we have to be

qualified to not squander it, destroy it, abuse it, and ruin the mood of

that place where we're headed.

 

So we have to be qualified.

 

When you suffer, you "swear" you will never "do that again", whatever it

is that caused you the pain. This learning process, which is humbling,

gradually makes us aware that we are not the takers, not the enjoyers,

but the servants. When this is fully ripe, we don't abuse anything,

knowing it could lead to pain, nay, WILL lead to pain.

 

So the Saint is the person who avoids pain the strongest.

 

Someone told me Maharishi once said "See the job, do the job, avoid the misery".

 

I agree with this. I STRUGGLE with this.

 

Instead, most of us, me included, do this:

 

"See the job, avoid the job, go for quick cheap happiness, and receive

the misery of not doing the needful, along with a reaction for whatever

cheap and negative thing we engaged it, took into our bodies, or whatever"

 

So the pain is our teacher.

 

So we live in the relative, playing out this learning game.

 

I think that when Vedic, or Ancient Indian scriptures of various types,

talk about these different types of karma, and so on, I think it's a

relative and not absolute set of truths and words. I personally don't

think it's the "highest" understanding. I think it's originated and

propogated due to faults in the way humans think and deal. There are

many examples of this in Veda.

 

There are relative lessons in Veda, and absolute. It's giving. It gives

to us all. It gives us what we need now, and later, but some parts are

more now, and some parts more later, like chapters in a book.

 

The teachings of the different types of karma are good, in that they

encourage us to make the best of our lives, which means, live smart,

which means, we've already learned the lessons, if we're smart, but if

we're not yet smart, then we will learn lessons, when we try to do

things in this life.

 

One interesting point is, even if we are free, we still get reactions.

So nobody's free from punishment, this we see for sure eh?

 

The feeling of free will, struggling with decisions you make, suffering

the "good" and bad results, and so forth, are what our lives are really

made of. It's about the process of purification of desire. Desire is not

stoppable, but it can be of different grades.

 

I personally think that nothing is free at all, but that it is made to

feel very free, as much as possible, so that it will truly experience

the lessons as their own.

 

The enlightened I've found are not even attached to identifying with

their lessons. They just take everything as "incoming" and they deal

with it, not paying more attention here or there, not attached here or

there- at all- just experiencing, witnessing, and doing the immediately

needful. I'm personally finding, that to make it through life, which is

full of pain, that I have to do things like this too. Turning off free

will seems to be more important on the spiritual path, if it is in any

way willing for "things" or certain conditions, etc.

 

The only willing I'm finding that works for me in terms of providing

happiness is willing to be a constant servant of the truth, of Divinity,

of the Path of enlightenment for myself and all beings. This is the only

happiness it seems. All other types of will, hope, aspiration, etc.,

seems to me, will ultimately be met with failure, like Hitler dieing in

his bunker, your only recourse is suicide to save your face. All our big

plans, hopes, dreams and wishes are doomed to failure against Gods,

which are much more powerful, incomparably so.

 

We have a problem with God's total dominion over all that be. That's why

we're here where we can't see Him very clearly, and that's why we don't

like it when "things happen to us" that we don't want.

 

We are not an "us", and we are not "separate", and we are not "free". We

are a part of God, we are not separate, and we are in God, we are not

separate, and all is one, there is no separation at all. All these

things are only illusions to the "locally blinded" eyes of the

illusioned soul. Locally blinded means: Can't see beyond the current

local circumstances.

 

I unfortunately can see alot further than my local circumstances, body,

nation, etc. I can see way beyond that common stuff. This is a curse and

blessing. It doesn't let you be in illusion much, so you have no peace,

without enlightenment.

 

Why did Budha turn from such a good material life as the son of a

powerful and wealthy King?

 

Because the fact is, old age, disease, death, threaten everyone and

everything. So there really is no freedom, except acceptance, and moving

within the realm of truth. Learning about that is called the Path in

America these days, as religion is now a bad word. Whatever.

 

The truth is, as Krishna said:

 

"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a real master of truth, or

spirit. Such a person can reveal it to you, because they have seen it

themselves clearly".

 

This is the old way. Nowadays we have books, videos, tapes, CD's, etc.,

and therefore the teachings of the enlightened persons can reach anyone

more easily. You may not have to go to India to get the information.

However, associating personally with persons more aware than yourself

has it's own powerful effect, and may very well be part of the equation

actually, such that personal association with one's Guru may be said to

be very important.

 

Anyway, on this list, regularly, this issue of

 

TOTAL PREDETERMINISM verse the old Hindu way of "DIFFERENT TYPES OF

KARMA WITH SOME FREE WILL" regularly clash as ideas of "whats true".

 

In the same way that we are one, yet separate, so also it is true that

BOTH free will and determinism (total karmic control), co-exist SIMULTANEOUSLY.

 

It's a matter of your perception point, and how big your viewing angle

is set to.

 

If you view VERY big, there's no free will. There is only God.

 

If you have a systematic and logical mind, there is no free will.

 

If you view locally, and are more spontaneous on the sensual level,

including in your mind and thoughts, and this is nearly all people, or

certainly MOST people, then free will exists BIG TIME and is REAL

IMPORTANT. There are many classes and people on Earth who are there just

to tell you, teach you, help you, to USE YOUR FREE WILL EFFECTIVELY, and

they have lots of followers, lots of success, etc.

 

One that comes to mind is Anthony Robbins. This is a man in America who

was fat, poor, sad, and disturbed, like many, at one point in his life.

He somehow changed dramatically, and has made a millionaires career out

of teaching how to use your free will to gain money, success, power,

health, happiness, everything.

 

He basically is a major "coach for your mind". He himself experienced,

in this life, DRAMATIC turn around of unhappiness to greater

fulfillment, but following a plan of positive thinking. He teaches this

positive thinking. He has many books and seminars on it. Millions of

people red him, follow him, know of him, and have "gained some help"

from "choosing to follow his teachings".

 

However, WHO made him. WHO made him unhappy, and then gave him the

clarity of mind, and strength of body to carry out his life? WHO made

his followers, and their conditions and abilities? How much did Anthony

choose to be American? How much did he choose to appear at a time when

books existed, so that he could publish them? Is he choosing his fade

out from life, which is now happening, as we don't hear nearly as much

from him now as we did in the 80's when he was really rolling strong.

 

Now he's older, more burnt out, perhaps a bit dissolusioned, I don't

know. I saw him on TV recently in his current aging body and he didn't

look at zippy as he did in his 30's.

 

As old age grasps him in it's hands, which it is, will he feel the same

way about free will?

 

As his vision changes, his perspective on "truth" will change. He may

one day, feel that all he taught people is wrong. There is a very good

chance I think, that he will one day feel that way, because in old age,

you simply cannot feel that all the fancy and flurry of your youth or

anybody elses is "wise". Old people simply know that young people don't

get it. This I've realized. Youthfulness, is based on young material

senses. They are strong, and ready to go. They draw us into all kinds of

difficulty. Then later, we realize all this, when they no longer work

like they did. That's why religious leaders are usually old, same with

philosophers, etc. And when younger, they have really strong Saturn's,

which shows previously passing many "aging" lessons already, hence

further along in the game, hence able to shed light on these matters not

attractive to those full of fire still.

 

Those campfires which are blazing, are not interested in hearing about

how to deal with dieing out. Those fires which are now only embers, are

now ready to discuss and deal with becoming cold ash.

 

A dieing fire can "will" to be blazing again, but it won't happen.

 

 

I'm full of free will, and I suffer alot.

 

 

Like right at this moment. There is nothing to do but accept and serve.

I've already tasted everything possible here it feels. No interest left

in anything much. It's just "remember God and keep serving". This leads

to some happiness, even great happiness. The leftover desires from all

my "free willing" in my life, is not like a pain of lack of fulfillment.

You become bitter from carrying desire, because it's always going to be

frustrated.

 

Modern Psychologists and statisticians will tell you these facts:

 

An alarming, huge, percentage of the population of America, the most

willful nation on Earth, is on anti-depressent drugs. This means that

TONS of Free Willys (americans) were SERIOUSLY unhappy sometimes

recently. Furthermore, the Psychologists will tell you that depression

is repressed anger, or in other words, it comes from frustration of desire!

 

So basically, bottom line, desiring, or willing, leads to frustration,

which leads to pain and sorrow. This is in the Gita. So as one "famous"

author said "The Gita dealt with and disposed of problems that still

plague us today, and it did so completey, thounsands of years back already!"

 

Free Will leads to pain. Accepting you are a servant of God leads to

freedom from pain.

 

To get money, for freedom to enjoy, you sign up for slavery, or work.

You work, and get paid, by the proprietor.

 

The proprietor is God. If we serve, we get paid with real freedom and enjoyment.

 

Avoid work, and we're poor in God's eyes, and we suffer alot.

 

This seems to be the truth, from all my research in life's essences.

 

 

 

 

=============================

SPECIAL FREE (will) SECTION:

=============================

 

An an added bonus to this post, you get, totally "FREE", this section.

 

 

 

Free will's advertising slogan possibilities:

 

 

 

"Come, WILL whatever you want, doesn't mean a damn thing".

 

Or

 

"Free Will. Plenty of it. Nobody honors it".

 

Or

 

"Free Will. You're FREE to WILL whatever you want, trouble is, you're

not the controller of what is. So it remains only "willing"."

 

Or, a more American slogan would be:

 

Free Will. It's what's for illusory thinking to pass the time.

 

Or

 

Free Will. So useless, nobody charges for it.

 

Or

 

Free Will. Free to Suffer Separatist thinking from God.

 

Or

 

Free Will, where evil lives.

 

Or

 

Free Will, a concept born in Hell.

 

Or

 

......

 

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

 

 

 

Free Willy!

 

 

 

 

 

Better yet, become a devotee of God.

[Guest guest]

Hare bol, Goravani das

Loved your post, both the sacred Vedic Wisdom & the funny stuff at the end.

Got me rolling in laughter! Wonderful 9th house wisdom post! Hare Krsna!

Tara

[Guest guest]

Das ji,

 

Thanks for always taking the time to share your path of spiritual

evolution with us. The language and experiences of the current age do

matter to all of us in learning the Truth, though available in books,

texts and ideas from the past.

 

Love,

Arun