Guest guest Posted September 26, 2001 Report Share Posted September 26, 2001 Dear Julia, <<but at precisely 9:50 am PST on that Oct. 3 date of exact Jupiter/Mars conj.,>> could you tell me please the source of your quote of 9:50 PST for that opposition. According to Raphael's emphemeris for 2001, it is at 09:09 PST or 17:09 GMT. 41' may not be much but for those wanting a more accurate version, it does. Thanks. Natabara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2001 Report Share Posted September 27, 2001 You have picked the 18th (just after Mars enters Capricorn), and I have picked the 16th (just before Mars enters Capricorn). I like the 16th better, because the lord of the 7th (Mercury) in the US chart is combust on the 16th. Either date will be just fine, because those nights will be very dark, and our brave pilots will be able to come in low and release the angel of death. Max Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2001 Report Share Posted September 27, 2001 Om Krsnaaya Namah Hi Everybody, While we're on the subject of planetary cycles and their relevance to mundane astrology, I think the research carried out by French mundane (western) astrologer Andre Barbault offers interesting ideas with regards to timing the effects of these cycles. Very often we see that major conjunctions/oppositions etc. don't fructify when the aspect becomes exact. Sometimes it can be months off. Barbault did research to find out the role of the faster moving planets in triggering the major cycles. He considered ten major cycles possible through the combinations of Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto, and his key finding was that primarily the Sun is the most important planet in triggering the effects of the major cycles, when it either conjoins, opposes or squares the major combination. Very early in his research (and this went on for decades - till his end actually), he accurately timed events on the basis of rudimentary astrological techniques, primarily the movement of the Sun. He predicted (at 19!) that Germany would invade Western Europe on 12 May 1940 (due to the Sun's conjunction with Uranus). It did so on 10 May. He predicted that the USSR would enter World War Two on 16 September (because of the Sun's conjunction with Neptune). It did so on the 17th. This way of using the Sun to time events can be brought together with major planetary cycles also, by seeing the Sun's relationship with the major cycle planets. So, for example, in October 1914 an exact conjunction of Saturn and Pluto took place, four months after the beginning of the first world war. However, the war was actually triggered off by the assasination of Arch Duke Franz Ferdinand on 28/6/1914. A week before, the Sun was conjunct Pluto, who was about seven degrees away from Saturn. Extending the major cycle thing to include Rahu/Ketu as well should also work. 5/4/1968, Saturn and Rahu were conjunct within about three degrees. The Sun joined Saturn. I believe this is the day when Martin Luther King was killed. So the Sun appears to be important in timing the results of major cycles. BTW, while I've only mentioned the conjunctions, after 55 years of research into these cycles, Barbault concluded that conjunctions give birth to a "current", sextiles make it a crisis, or internal conflict, squares allow it to assert itself, trines allow it to "take wing", and it fights during the opposition. The current is then said to move into a waning phase. In this sense, oppositions appear to show the strongest effect. Also interesting is the fact that if we apply Barbault's ideas to the current Saturn-Pluto opposition, we find that some of the effects of that opposition were bound to manifest around the 6th September because at this time, the Sun squared both Saturn and Pluto. What's very interesting next year is that on the 8 June 2002, not only are Saturn and Rahu conjunct, but they oppose Pluto, and the Sun is also conjunct the Saturn Rahu combination, while opposing Pluto. Strong and serious effects of this combination are likely to manifest around this date, and this is made worse by the fact that in June, two eclipses occur within a fortnight, which is considered rather sinister in Vedic literature. This all has links with President Bush's chart, because not only is he in a Rahu return, and not only does the Saturn/Rahu/Sun/Pluto combo take place close to his natal nodes, but the eclipse on 10 June touches his natal Rahu/Uranus conjunction directly - and according to most mundane astrologer's, eclipses can often have power a few days before the eclipse itself. So if we trust Barbault's research, the period around 8 June should be particularly interesting (Those on Ben Collin's Jyotish List may have read Chris Kevill's post yesterday which concentrated on Bush's progressions - more links with Bush's chart!). Finally, in his research, Barbault noted that the Sun-Mars cycle is often extremely useful and precise in timing international tension. If that is the case then 13 October 2001 should be interesting, for the Sun squares Mars exactly on this day. Hope this one wasn't too boring :-), Pursottam _______ Get your free @ address at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2001 Report Share Posted September 27, 2001 I had a question about the various combinations (conjunctions, oppositions, etc.) being mentioned recently. To determine what combinations are ocurring when, do we use a particular place to cast the chart? Or is there a way or arriving at these combinations without reference to a particular place? I was playing around with one of the dates recently mentioned (Oct 3, 9:50am) for a Mars-Jupiter opposition and found that changing the location for the horoscope changed positions of the planets by a small amount possibly changing the strength of the opposition. Although the change in positions is only by a few minutes, that could potentially put the planet in a different house/sign. So is it correct to say that these combinations will have slightly different effects at different places on the earth and possibly at slightly different times? On a slightly related topic, how does one calculate transits with respect to the natal chart? How is this calculation affected if the native has moved to a different location from his/her place of birth? Vinod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2001 Report Share Posted September 27, 2001 Om Gurave Namah -------------------------- Dear Jyotisha, On sept 11 when it happened, there was a mail in which I told Dog to wait for Mars to cross the degree and enter capricorn for america to have its revenge. Mars is crossing the degree of Jupiter (Peace) on the 5th October and is entering Capricorn around 18 October. guess that should be enough for the Missiles to do the job. all that propaganda about the uS not having the competence to handle the mountains will perish when those missiles go flying... Best Wishes Sanjay Rath - natabara <natabara GJlist <gjlist> Wednesday, September 26, 2001 2:03 PM [gjlist] Mars op Jupiter > Dear Julia, > > <<but at precisely 9:50 am PST on that Oct. 3 date of exact Jupiter/Mars conj.,>> > > could you tell me please the source of your quote of 9:50 PST for that opposition. According to Raphael's emphemeris for 2001, it is at 09:09 PST or 17:09 GMT. > > 41' may not be much but for those wanting a more accurate version, it does. > > Thanks. > Natabara > > > > > > > gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2001 Report Share Posted September 27, 2001 <<Hope this one wasn't too boring :-),>> Boring? Exactly the opposite - I hung on every word. Thank you so much for such a fascinating and useful post. Julia - "Pursottam" <pursottam_dabasia <gjlist> Thursday, September 27, 2001 2:46 PM RE: [gjlist] Mars op Jupiter > Om Krsnaaya Namah > > Hi Everybody, > > While we're on the subject of planetary cycles and their relevance to > mundane astrology, I think the research carried out by French mundane > (western) astrologer Andre Barbault offers interesting ideas with regards to > timing the effects of these cycles. Very often we see that major > conjunctions/oppositions etc. don't fructify when the aspect becomes exact. > Sometimes it can be months off. Barbault did research to find out the role > of the faster moving planets in triggering the major cycles. He considered > ten major cycles possible through the combinations of Jupiter, Saturn, > Uranus, Neptune and Pluto, and his key finding was that primarily the Sun is > the most important planet in triggering the effects of the major cycles, > when it either conjoins, opposes or squares the major combination. Very > early in his research (and this went on for decades - till his end > actually), he accurately timed events on the basis of rudimentary > astrological techniques, primarily the movement of the Sun. He predicted (at > 19!) that Germany would invade Western Europe on 12 May 1940 (due to the > Sun's conjunction with Uranus). It did so on 10 May. He predicted that the > USSR would enter World War Two on 16 September (because of the Sun's > conjunction with Neptune). It did so on the 17th. > > This way of using the Sun to time events can be brought together with major > planetary cycles also, by seeing the Sun's relationship with the major cycle > planets. So, for example, in October 1914 an exact conjunction of Saturn and > Pluto took place, four months after the beginning of the first world war. > However, the war was actually triggered off by the assasination of Arch Duke > Franz Ferdinand on 28/6/1914. A week before, the Sun was conjunct Pluto, who > was about seven degrees away from Saturn. Extending the major cycle thing to > include Rahu/Ketu as well should also work. 5/4/1968, Saturn and Rahu were > conjunct within about three degrees. The Sun joined Saturn. I believe this > is the day when Martin Luther King was killed. So the Sun appears to be > important in timing the results of major cycles. BTW, while I've only > mentioned the conjunctions, after 55 years of research into these cycles, > Barbault concluded that conjunctions give birth to a "current", sextiles > make it a crisis, or internal conflict, squares allow it to assert itself, > trines allow it to "take wing", and it fights during the opposition. The > current is then said to move into a waning phase. In this sense, oppositions > appear to show the strongest effect. Also interesting is the fact that if we > apply Barbault's ideas to the current Saturn-Pluto opposition, we find that > some of the effects of that opposition were bound to manifest around the 6th > September because at this time, the Sun squared both Saturn and Pluto. > > What's very interesting next year is that on the 8 June 2002, not only are > Saturn and Rahu conjunct, but they oppose Pluto, and the Sun is also > conjunct the Saturn Rahu combination, while opposing Pluto. Strong and > serious effects of this combination are likely to manifest around this date, > and this is made worse by the fact that in June, two eclipses occur within a > fortnight, which is considered rather sinister in Vedic literature. This all > has links with President Bush's chart, because not only is he in a Rahu > return, and not only does the Saturn/Rahu/Sun/Pluto combo take place close > to his natal nodes, but the eclipse on 10 June touches his natal Rahu/Uranus > conjunction directly - and according to most mundane astrologer's, eclipses > can often have power a few days before the eclipse itself. So if we trust > Barbault's research, the period around 8 June should be particularly > interesting (Those on Ben Collin's Jyotish List may have read Chris Kevill's > post yesterday which concentrated on Bush's progressions - more links with > Bush's chart!). > > Finally, in his research, Barbault noted that the Sun-Mars cycle is often > extremely useful and precise in timing international tension. If that is the > case then 13 October 2001 should be interesting, for the Sun squares Mars > exactly on this day. > > Hope this one wasn't too boring :-), > > Pursottam > > > _______ > > Get your free @ address at > > > > gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2001 Report Share Posted September 28, 2001 Pursottam: Great to see you back on the list. I've read some of Barbault before, but wasn't aware of his predictions. Pretty neat. Still, like of a lot of techniques, they aren't always reliable. So, while there was something fairly clear for the German invasion of western Europe, there wasn't a clear configuration for the actual start of the war on Sep 1 1939. Likewise, we can easily name all sorts of historical events that have no clear planetary pattern supporting them. Plus, it's very hard to say *what* type of event will occur just on the basis of the planets involved. The observer has to rely on the given context and make a good guess about it. Of course, this doesn't mean there isn't something going on in Barbault's cycles. I think there is, but it's often just beyond our reach. It reminds me of Thomas Rieder's work on the stock market. It's all transit based, and does not make reference to any natal chart. Rieder postulated that the US markets were more likely to drop whenever there was a hard aspect contact between two slow moving planets *and* one of those planets were conjuncted by Mars. The drop would then occur within several weeks after. This configuration occurred in Jul 2000 I think but I think the market started to drop well before then. Something is going on there, but it's not enough to make consistent predictions on. Maybe one has to incorporate other ideas to it, eg midpoints, navamsha overlay, nakshatra lordships, etc. So anyway, I'll make a note of that June 8 date and see if it all goes down then. My guess is it has to be later than that, but I guess this is still within the margin of error. Chris At 07:46 PM 9/27/01 +0100, you wrote: >Om Krsnaaya Namah > >Hi Everybody, > >While we're on the subject of planetary cycles and their relevance to >mundane astrology, I think the research carried out by French mundane >(western) astrologer Andre Barbault offers interesting ideas with regards to >timing the effects of these cycles. Very often we see that major >conjunctions/oppositions etc. don't fructify when the aspect becomes exact. >Sometimes it can be months off. Barbault did research to find out the role >of the faster moving planets in triggering the major cycles. He considered >ten major cycles possible through the combinations of Jupiter, Saturn, >Uranus, Neptune and Pluto, and his key finding was that primarily the Sun is >the most important planet in triggering the effects of the major cycles, >when it either conjoins, opposes or squares the major combination. Very >early in his research (and this went on for decades - till his end >actually), he accurately timed events on the basis of rudimentary >astrological techniques, primarily the movement of the Sun. He predicted (at >19!) that Germany would invade Western Europe on 12 May 1940 (due to the >Sun's conjunction with Uranus). It did so on 10 May. He predicted that the >USSR would enter World War Two on 16 September (because of the Sun's >conjunction with Neptune). It did so on the 17th. > >This way of using the Sun to time events can be brought together with major >planetary cycles also, by seeing the Sun's relationship with the major cycle >planets. So, for example, in October 1914 an exact conjunction of Saturn and >Pluto took place, four months after the beginning of the first world war. >However, the war was actually triggered off by the assasination of Arch Duke >Franz Ferdinand on 28/6/1914. A week before, the Sun was conjunct Pluto, who >was about seven degrees away from Saturn. Extending the major cycle thing to >include Rahu/Ketu as well should also work. 5/4/1968, Saturn and Rahu were >conjunct within about three degrees. The Sun joined Saturn. I believe this >is the day when Martin Luther King was killed. So the Sun appears to be >important in timing the results of major cycles. BTW, while I've only >mentioned the conjunctions, after 55 years of research into these cycles, >Barbault concluded that conjunctions give birth to a "current", sextiles >make it a crisis, or internal conflict, squares allow it to assert itself, >trines allow it to "take wing", and it fights during the opposition. The >current is then said to move into a waning phase. In this sense, oppositions >appear to show the strongest effect. Also interesting is the fact that if we >apply Barbault's ideas to the current Saturn-Pluto opposition, we find that >some of the effects of that opposition were bound to manifest around the 6th >September because at this time, the Sun squared both Saturn and Pluto. > >What's very interesting next year is that on the 8 June 2002, not only are >Saturn and Rahu conjunct, but they oppose Pluto, and the Sun is also >conjunct the Saturn Rahu combination, while opposing Pluto. Strong and >serious effects of this combination are likely to manifest around this date, >and this is made worse by the fact that in June, two eclipses occur within a >fortnight, which is considered rather sinister in Vedic literature. This all >has links with President Bush's chart, because not only is he in a Rahu >return, and not only does the Saturn/Rahu/Sun/Pluto combo take place close >to his natal nodes, but the eclipse on 10 June touches his natal Rahu/Uranus >conjunction directly - and according to most mundane astrologer's, eclipses >can often have power a few days before the eclipse itself. So if we trust >Barbault's research, the period around 8 June should be particularly >interesting (Those on Ben Collin's Jyotish List may have read Chris Kevill's >post yesterday which concentrated on Bush's progressions - more links with >Bush's chart!). > >Finally, in his research, Barbault noted that the Sun-Mars cycle is often >extremely useful and precise in timing international tension. If that is the >case then 13 October 2001 should be interesting, for the Sun squares Mars >exactly on this day. > >Hope this one wasn't too boring :-), > >Pursottam > > >_______ > >Get your free @ address at > > > >gjlist- > > > >Your use of is subject to > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2001 Report Share Posted September 29, 2001 Om Krsnaaya Namah Hey Chris! > > Great to see you back on the list. I've read some of Barbault before, but > wasn't aware of his predictions. Pretty neat. Still, like of a lot of > techniques, they aren't always reliable. So, while there was something > fairly clear for the German invasion of western Europe, there wasn't a > clear configuration for the actual start of the war on Sep 1 1939. Nice to be back! I agree that they might not be reliable, and I admit I haven't actually researched them myself. But with everything that's going on, my interest in mundane astrology went up a bit, and I thought some of this material would be interesting to others, especially as very often we just expect the exact aspects to indicate the correct dates of events, even though clearly this is not a consistently reliable approach. As regards Barbault's stuff, I don't consider it reliable in prediction simply because I haven't sat down with an ephemeris and looked at it in detail. My "predictions" are more like me thinking out aloud on the basis of his research, rather than me confidently predicting something. But I do find many of his documented predictions and reasoning interesting (even though most of it's in French!). And another thing we have to consider in mind when researching these principles is whether the principle should work everytime an event occurs, or whether an event should occur every time the principle does (hope you get what I mean here). I think the latter approach is more important. > Likewise, we can easily name all sorts of historical events that have no > clear planetary pattern supporting them. Plus, it's very hard to say > *what* type of event will occur just on the basis of the planets involved. > The observer has to rely on the given context and make a good guess about > it. Of course, this doesn't mean there isn't something going on in > Barbault's cycles. I think there is, but it's often just beyond > our reach. True enough, and I think this is where all the other mundane techniques come in - ingresses, lunations, eclipse charts, countries charts, leader's charts etc. But the constantly changing planetary patterns do appear to have some meaning, just not clear meaning, at least until we know the background situation of what's going on. Sometimes of course, observation gives us enough clues as to what a certain pattern will bring. For example, observation suggests that the Uranus-Neptune cycle is linked closely to Russia - in 1917, when these planets were conjunct, Russia had the October Revolution. In 1953, Stalin died. In 1989, the USSR's Eastern Bloc empire ended, and on the basis of past observations, mundane astrologers had accurately predicted this years in advance. But generally I think we need our other tools to help fill in the picture more clearly. > So anyway, I'll make a note of that June 8 date and see if it all > goes down > then. My guess is it has to be later than that, but I guess this is still > within the margin of error. > Considering my lack of experience in mundane astrology, you're probably right! But something else interesting I noticed today was that if you look at Bush's chart for kakshya transits as explained by Rick Houck, he's down to 0 (out of eight) on the 8th and 9th. Very interesting I think. Hopefully we can look at other mundane charts over the next few days/weeks and see what they say with compressed dashas and whatever. Pursottam _______ Get your free @ address at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2001 Report Share Posted September 29, 2001 Om Krsnaaya Namah Hello Vinod, > > I was playing around with one of the dates recently mentioned (Oct 3, > 9:50am) for a Mars-Jupiter opposition and found that changing the location > for the horoscope changed positions of the planets by a small amount > possibly changing the strength of the opposition. Based on your description it sounds as if the planets are in different places because of the different time zones. So, for example, the planetary positions for now in London time (00:51), would not be the same as the positions for Delhi at 00:51, simply because in Delhi it was 00:51 4.5 hours ago, and so the planets would have moved since then. > > On a slightly related topic, how does one calculate transits with respect > to the natal chart? How is this calculation affected if the native has > moved to a different location from his/her place of birth? > In natal astrology, how you calculate transits shouldn't make a big difference. This issue becomes far more important when using Varshaphala, or western progressions. In the former, I'd recommend sticking to the place of birth, and in the latter, to the new relocated place. Hope it helps, Pursottam _______ Get your free @ address at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2001 Report Share Posted September 29, 2001 <<could you tell me please the source of your quote of 9:50 PST for that opposition. >> Dear Natabara, I am afraid I cut corners, and rather than using an actual ephemeris, I simply took the time from the gochara on my software program. I do not know which ephemeris it uses. But in this case, there was admittedly a 20 minute span of time from 9:30 to 9:50 when Mars and Jupiter are both at 20 degrees 22 minutes - it does not time to the seconds. And I agree with you that 41 minutes is a long time. I am happy to go with your time of 9:09 as I do not know the source of mine. But let us at the same time hope that nothing untoward happens that date which leads us to confirm the accuracy of either time!. Julia - "natabara" <natabara "GJlist" <gjlist> Wednesday, September 26, 2001 4:33 AM [gjlist] Mars op Jupiter > Dear Julia, > > <<but at precisely 9:50 am PST on that Oct. 3 date of exact Jupiter/Mars conj.,>> > > could you tell me please the source of your quote of 9:50 PST for that opposition. According to Raphael's emphemeris for 2001, it is at 09:09 PST or 17:09 GMT. > > 41' may not be much but for those wanting a more accurate version, it does. > > Thanks. > Natabara > > > > > > > gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2001 Report Share Posted September 30, 2001 Om Krsnaaya Namah Dear List, This does not appear to have gone through yesterday, so I'm resending it. If I'm clogging up your mailbox by sending it twice, SORRY! Pursottam [pursottam_dabasia] 30 September 2001 00:57 gjlist RE: [gjlist] Mars op Jupiter Om Krsnaaya Namah Hello Vinod, > > I was playing around with one of the dates recently mentioned (Oct 3, > 9:50am) for a Mars-Jupiter opposition and found that changing the location > for the horoscope changed positions of the planets by a small amount > possibly changing the strength of the opposition. Based on your description it sounds as if the planets are in different places because of the different time zones. So, for example, the planetary positions for now in London time (00:51), would not be the same as the positions for Delhi at 00:51, simply because in Delhi it was 00:51 4.5 hours ago, and so the planets would have moved since then. > > On a slightly related topic, how does one calculate transits with respect > to the natal chart? How is this calculation affected if the native has > moved to a different location from his/her place of birth? > In natal astrology, how you calculate transits shouldn't make a big difference. This issue becomes far more important when using Varshaphala, or western progressions. In the former, I'd recommend sticking to the place of birth, and in the latter, to the new relocated place. Hope it helps, Pursottam _______ Get your free @ address at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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