Guest guest Posted September 14, 2001 Report Share Posted September 14, 2001 Just to clear up another point Sanjay: Constantly bombarding others (who don't necessarily conform to your belief) with your doctrine, is showing lack of respect for their belief. I speak on behalf of others, not myself. I'm not against Hinduism...I received mantra initiation from a hindu monk. I'm not against Buddhism...took refuge many years ago. I'm not against Christianity...I grew up in that religion. My religion (if I have one) is all of the above. I feel (strongly) that some jyotish schools have become overly doctrinal. There is no harm in this if you happen to belong to that particular school...but it can become offensive (having a particular doctrine forced on you) if you do not. I'm not about to take someone's word as gospel truth simply because they have a big following. You want me to accept that man has 33% free will because you say so...sorry Sanjay, I have my own views on that! Wendy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2001 Report Share Posted September 14, 2001 Good letter Sanjay. I agree with you on this one:o) Renee >>> srath 09/14/01 09:59AM >>> Om Gurave Namah -------------------------- Dear Wendy, There is nothing personal or religious out here. If I say that there is about 33% free will, perhaps there will be more Hindoo's who disagree with me, and I never realised for a moment that you were from a different religion. Honestly, it does not matter for i believe in the teachings of Krishna that even if we were to worship a leaf or a totem with enough faith then Bhagavan will show His blessings from that symbol. The example I was citing was of Krishna as He is well known. I can give some personal experiences, but then that would be outside the point. This is a question of what is the basic Jyotish Principle. In fact there are two things that separate a man from an animal and these are (a) the power to will and (b) the power to understand. You may call this a Christian teaching, but then I felt this was a good thing to learn from Father David during my school days. I visit churches and light candles. Infact my wife is from goa and the religious tolerance and acceptance of each others religion and participation in mutual festivals is fantastic. I have never spoken ill of any religion. Impossible. At best I may have given a mantra to someone without checking whether the person is Hindoo or Christian or of any other faith. Thats because I myself recite mantra like 'Ave Maria' and 'allah ho Akbar' especially when they can be heard over a loudspeaker, to see their impact on my thinking and their effect. For me Mantra is a SHASTRA, a science which I have to learn by experimenting and reading. Can you kindly repost that letter which you felt was offensive? Just one last question, I still do not know what is your religion, but if it is Buddhism, be it Hinayana or Mahayana; Either way, if your letter on Jesus did cause hurt to others, then your Karma is not in the true Buddhist tradition (based on what little I understand about the Great Tathagata and Ahimsa). There is no offence meant here. Just airing and sharing views so that we can all benefit from this interaction. Om Shanti Prabhu. Best Wishes Sanjay Rath - Wendy Vasicek <wenvas <gjlist> Friday, September 14, 2001 6:42 PM Re: [gjlist] Free Will > Dear Sanjay, > > I do believe that we're looking at this from two totally different perspectives. You put forward the discourse between Krshna and Arjuna as an example, however without Arjuna's actual horoscope a logical discussion cannot take place. I will say this however, with absolute certainty...divine instruction prior to battle would have been evident in Arjuna's chart. > > My view is that (in regards to karma) we have no free will to alter what is predetermined at birth. Even enlightened sages do not have the power to alter their karma...Buddha, although in a state of never changing "wakefulness" still reaped the karma of his birth...Christ had to reap the karma of his birth. My perspective is that once "awake" however we are a witness to maya rather than it's prisoner. > > Sooner or later every living being will "awaken" and that will also be evident in the horoscope. Receiving instruction (leading to that awakening) from a Krshna, Buddha, Christ or whomever will also be evident in the horoscope. So in answer to your statement that Bhagavan Krishna would not have wasted time.......etc., the teachings were there for Arjuna because that was his destiny, and the teachings are there for all those destined to receive them. > > The thing is Sanjay, that we see through different eyes. Our religious creeds are different, our philosophical outlook is different, our understanding of jyotish is different...infinate differences we have, and I doubt if we'll ever see things the same way. It's not only you and I...look at the differences between fundamental Islamics and Christians, Buddhists and so forth. It is because of these differences (which most are very passionate about) that I avoid making references to religious beliefs when I post to a public forum...I try as best as I can to keep the science of jyotish as scientific as possible. > > I recently put up a post regarding Christ's struggle with his karma in response to an overtly religious post by your good self in an effort to show that there are people of many different religious persuasions on the list, and I hoped you would realise that. I respect your devotion to your religious beliefs...I just wish you would show the same respect to mine. > > If we wish jyotish to ever be accepted as a legitimate science in the West we have to try to minimise this sectarian religiousity that goes hand in hand. > > This mail is without prejudice Sanjay and, although you may not agree with my views, I certainly hope you will acknowledge my right to have them. > > Best Wishes, > Wendy > > > > > > > gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > gjlist- Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2001 Report Share Posted September 14, 2001 Dear List Members The more one persues sattva the more his/her free will increases .There is no fixed percentage .The more one persues rajas and especially tamas the more their free will decreases . Like a drug addict will rob their own mother to support their habit so that their previous choice of tamas has taken away their freedom to act properly . Kind regards Nicholas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2001 Report Share Posted September 14, 2001 Ash Sam: I'm certain there's not one jyotisha who is not well versed in Vedic scripture, who is not completely familiar with BPHS, Saravali etc... However there is a vast difference between Vedic knowledge and fundamental dogmatism. Wendy >>Dear Wendy, I would like to say a few words. Hope that it is taken in the right spirit. If the West has to understand the essence of Jyotish, then the West will also have to understand that Jyotish originated in India and its has its references to the Great Epics. The truth, and the real indeapth understanding of the great texts is vital in understand the verses and its references in Old Jyotish texts. The results will prove to the west if it has not already, and when the predictions are accurate , thats when the revelation, faith, belief will begin. The world, be it so west, east, north and south cannot forget that Jyotish originated in the Vedic Era and in India, and it has its references to the Great Epics and that it were written in Sanskrit. So again, to get an indeapth understanding to Jyotish, one also has to understand its foundations and the verses in Sanskrit shall start making more and more sense. We as Jyotishas cannot forget that. Karma, Fate and free will had its debates and these debates shall always continue and with every debate if done with an open mind will open up a gazzillion new doors that one can explore and be more enlightened. Judiasm, Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Jainism etc. all relegions have commonalities the more one explores the more will one realise how similar they are. One can definitely corelate. The Maharishis had the power to elongate their lives or end it at their will so did the great saints. Everyones understanding is different in Jyosish, and thats what is a blessing in disguies. Most of us here on these lists know that Jyotish works, we have seen it for ourselves. Most of us here are from different parts of the world, and we go by the basis that Jyotish works, we do not have all the answers and we all are working towards finding the truth and it will eventually bring enlightenment to all of us. Understandings may be different but the truth is one. With these thoughts, Thanking you for your patience, Best Regards, Ash Sam<< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2001 Report Share Posted September 15, 2001 Om Gurave Namah -------------------------- Dear Raghu, I am again clarifying that the FREE WILL 33% is bounded rationality like the Simonian model of decision making. These boundaries are set by God and the FREE WILL is further restricted to Karma Yoga. This is what I had said. I also talked about the four boundaries like four boundaries of a plot - Information (Knowledge), Resources, Abilities and finally Time. Please think on this. Think of the exercise of Free will by Valmiki and Arjuna. The real difference in their decision making process occured after they had the Knowledge. For Valmika, the dacoit and murderer, at the behest of the Sadhus he had captured, went to his wife to ask if they would share the burden of his sin as he was doing all this for their welfare. They refused and this knowledge that the sins of our karma are our responsibility led him to change. it is a separate issue that Bhagavan was kind to Him at a particular point of time, and that is Jyotish (more precisely DRIG DASA). For Arjuna, he had the abilities (best archer), the resouces (with Bhagavan what else can one want) etc, but not the knowledge. His Bhakti had reached the stage as described by Sri Jagannatha Das in Hatha Yoga Vidhi... Sloka 39: Kleem Krishna Sleem Radha Hleem prema rupa bujha Kleem Krishna Sleem Krishna-guru Hleem Shisya boli heja Translation: Just like Kleem is Krishna, Sleem is Radha and Hleem is Love, so also Kleem is Krishna, Sleem is the Diksha guru (or such siksha guru's who are dedicated to their subject) and Hleem is the disciple, student or learner depending on the context. This stage is the stage when his good karma and Bhakti for Bhagavan gave Him personal darshan in this physical plane. I.e. He actually saw the Chaturbhuja Roopa. The knowledge was what he was lacking and having got the knowledge of the Gita, the boundaries of his decision making changed and he was reslved for battle. Thus, the decision making is exercise of free will to the extent of 33% i.e. limited to the Upachaya house matters only and only w.r.t. Karma Yoga. For example we cannot go and murder someone and say that this was the act of God. this is our Karma and we have to pay for whatever good or bad we do. Now, coming to Karma, when I say 'Swa or WE' I am referring to the sum total of the personality of the individual comprising his atma (Sun), Mana (Moon) and Deha (Lagna). the atma is a witness as mentioned by you and I agree with this. the atma does not murder. It is the conscious mana that urges the body to do the sin. hence the body is tarnished with sin and the mana is also blackened i.e. the light of the Atma and the inner voice does not reach the Mana through the natural processes. The conscience is dead. But then the atma cannot escape the karma committed the Sareera/Mana and in another incarnation or in the same incarnation will also have to witness the suffering of the Mana and sareera as a consequence of past action. That is why the FREE WILL is restricted to upachaya as reckoned from LAGNA only and the boundaries for the Mana are set by Bhagavan. A mantra or a Prayer brings the Mercy of Bhagavan and the boundaries alter, be it through knowledge, resources or ability. I don't think time changes as the dasa's cannot be changed through any mantra. This is what the great Jyotisha's call DESHA, KALA, PATRA... Best Wishes Sanjay Rath - Das Goravani <> <gjlist> Friday, September 14, 2001 10:01 PM Re: [gjlist] Free Will > > You are a witness and rider, a perceiver, a feeler, within a body, that > has a completely preset course that it will live. The value of this > experience is in what you'll learn. The cummulative effect of many lives > is total wisdom, liberation from material entanglement, engagement in > the all beautiful way of divine eternal life. > > If I'm not mistaken, I do believe that in the Gita, when Krishna shows > Arjuna the Virat Rupa, or his form as "the whole Universe", at that time > he tells Arjuna that the outcome of the war is preset, and that Arjuna > and his brothers will be victorious. > > So that means the future was known, and it was known Arjuna and his > brothers would fight, and be victorious, so I think that Arjuna did not > have free will. > > I think that humans can perceive separately from the divine will, in > other words, we are not the "one minded Borg" as on Star Trek. Rather, > we have separated individual consciousnesses, and we don't know the > script of what is unfolding, but something is unfolding in an orderly > way, and this means we are all puppets, including Arjuna. I think this > idea is made clear in the Gita. > > The Gita seems to teach, to me, that there is this simultaneous > predeterminism, along with the perception and experience of singularity, > individuality, and independence. Because of these things we can > experience responsibility. We can experience ownership and attachment, > and the process of detachment, and it can seem completely real. > > Experiencing life in that way, as an individual with free will, is a > perception, a paradigm of what we see. God has seemingly made it this > way. We as souls can get attached, feel pain, go through the process of > detachment and liberation and so on, all within this changing temporary > material creation. > > But since we are wayward to some degree, not fully right willing and > acting, so it's impossible for us to have any free will actually, > because it would be abused. So actually, everything is flowing in a set > pattern, but to see that, is not easy for us at all, since we must live > in the now, in the moment, in our lives, since total pain awaits us > physically if we do not attend to the here and now in our bodies, ie, > moving around, making things for trade, eating, sleeping, mating, etc > etc. > > So our bodies and the environment actually set up the field and all the > actions and reactions, so actually we are one, and it is all God, so to > speak, but then there is the experience of individuality, inside which > is all kinds of things including feelings of elation, bliss, sadness, > remorse, etc etc. So that experience is gradually elevating a soul. So > in the illusion, is the place for personal growth. > > Outside of the illusion, there is no growth, but to stay outside the > illusion, one must be fully grown. So we grow in the illusion, and then > eventually we're ready to graduate. > > I do think that ultimately in this kind of way only, will we be able to > harmonize the fact that Jyotish works so well, the Hindu scriptural > teachings, and what we see as reality. > > It nicely ends up pointing our noses back to our own spiritual business > as the main point of life. It takes our minds off the body as spiritual > thought should, places it as a valuable but temporary home, to be taken > care of, but not over-adorned or believed in beyond it's capacity to > return the favor, and it leaves Jyotish as it is in it's exalted > position as the only way to really show clearly that predeterminism does > indeed exist, and it makes ALL the parts of the Gita acceptable as one > whole message, the parts that seem to refer to free will, and the parts > that clearly state the opposite. > > But these are my opinions, and I'm not all that learned either. So there > may be fault in the conclusions. I have always tried to serve divinity > to some degree, and held interest in the teachings about it, and have > paid close attention in my mind to thinking of these things, as I've > always been curious to answer these big questions for myself. So far, > this is my conclusion. It's offered in service as a humble brother. > > Thanks, > -- > > > Das Goravani > > > > > > > 2852 Willamette St # 353 > Eugene OR USA 97405 > > or > Fax: 541-343-0344 > > "Goravani Jyotish" > Vedic/Hindu Astrology Software > > > gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2001 Report Share Posted September 15, 2001 Excellent example!! - "Nicholas" <costa <gjlist>; "Wendy Vasicek" <wenvas Friday, September 14, 2001 3:58 PM Re: [gjlist] Free Will > Dear List Members > The more one persues sattva the more his/her free will increases .There is > no fixed percentage .The more one persues rajas and especially tamas the > more their free will decreases . Like a drug addict will rob their own > mother to support their habit > so that their previous choice of tamas has taken away their freedom to act > properly . > Kind regards > Nicholas > > > > gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2001 Report Share Posted September 15, 2001 Thanks Don Nicholas - "Don" <vedicreadings <gjlist> Saturday, September 15, 2001 6:52 PM Re: [gjlist] Free Will > Excellent example!! > > > > - > "Nicholas" <costa > <gjlist>; "Wendy Vasicek" <wenvas > Friday, September 14, 2001 3:58 PM > Re: [gjlist] Free Will > > > > Dear List Members > > The more one persues sattva the more his/her free will increases .There is > > no fixed percentage .The more one persues rajas and especially tamas the > > more their free will decreases . Like a drug addict will rob their own > > mother to support their habit > > so that their previous choice of tamas has taken away their freedom to act > > properly . > > Kind regards > > Nicholas > > > > > > > > gjlist- > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2001 Report Share Posted September 15, 2001 Om Gurave Namah -------------------------- Dear Nicholas, That is a brilliant statement. Yes I fully agree. The starting point for Manushya Jataka is roughly 33% assuming that the Gunas are equally distributed. Yes, this will also vary and there cannot be a hard and fast rule, but my point was related to the houses where this can manifest and these are the Upachaya. i find it hard to see this for ayus and othe such matters. Best Wishes Sanjay Rath - Nicholas <costa <gjlist>; Wendy Vasicek <wenvas Saturday, September 15, 2001 4:28 AM Re: [gjlist] Free Will > Dear List Members > The more one persues sattva the more his/her free will increases .There is > no fixed percentage .The more one persues rajas and especially tamas the > more their free will decreases . Like a drug addict will rob their own > mother to support their habit > so that their previous choice of tamas has taken away their freedom to act > properly . > Kind regards > Nicholas > > > > gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2001 Report Share Posted September 15, 2001 Dear Mani and Wendy, Not these houses, but grahas placed in 3/6/10/11 can grow... There is the key to increase the free will... Best wishes, Zoran Wendy Vasicek wrote: > Mani Wrote: > >>This posting is interesting in many ways. For one thing Kryon says that NO human > or Spirit can say what will happen tomorrow.... and that we mould our future > ourselves. This is sort of contradicts astrology, but Sanjay maintains that 33% > offreedom is given to us - which at least appeals to me!<< > > Hi Mani, > > At the risk of being contraversial (not my intention) I have to say I disagree with this 33% free will theory. In respect to Janma Kundali the blueprint of destiny (programe) is set, as a result of past actions...if this were not so one would not be able to read a horoscope. The karma that is due to us will manifest in the appropriate dasa and that is not dependant on, or altered by free will. > > However I do believe that through the regular practice of meditation (spiritual practices) and the performance of virtuous deeds and charitable activities (service), the influence of negative karma can be smoothed out...not so overwhelming. > > The statement that; > >>The four houses 3,6,10 & 11 are houses that are controlled by the native in matters concerning Karma related to present life.<< > Is (to my mind) not correct...the 3rd and 11th are concerned with desires of course, but the nature of our desires are dependant upon the nature of the houses themselves and not our own free will. The 6th and 10th are concerned with work (service) and occupation (career), but again, the type of actions we perform are dependant upon the nature of these houses and not our own free will. > > Rgds, Wendy > > > > > gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2001 Report Share Posted September 15, 2001 Dear Sanjay Thanks All Glories to Sri Caiyanya Mahaprabhu who is delivering us fallen Westerners from the ocean of tamas . Nicholas - "Sanjay Rath" <srath <gjlist> Saturday, September 15, 2001 11:37 PM Re: [gjlist] Free Will > > Om Gurave Namah > -------------------------- > Dear Nicholas, > That is a brilliant statement. Yes I fully agree. The starting point for > Manushya Jataka is roughly 33% assuming that the Gunas are equally > distributed. Yes, this will also vary and there cannot be a hard and fast > rule, but my point was related to the houses where this can manifest and > these are the Upachaya. i find it hard to see this for ayus and othe such > matters. > Best Wishes > Sanjay Rath > - > Nicholas <costa > <gjlist>; Wendy Vasicek <wenvas > Saturday, September 15, 2001 4:28 AM > Re: [gjlist] Free Will > > > > Dear List Members > > The more one persues sattva the more his/her free will increases .There is > > no fixed percentage .The more one persues rajas and especially tamas the > > more their free will decreases . Like a drug addict will rob their own > > mother to support their habit > > so that their previous choice of tamas has taken away their freedom to act > > properly . > > Kind regards > > Nicholas > > > > > > > > gjlist- > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > > > gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2001 Report Share Posted September 16, 2001 Zoran: Of course planets in these houses grow in strength with the passage of time...this is basic jyotish principle. But do they grow because we "will" them to?...if we didn't consciously "will" this, would planets in growing houses not grow?? C'mon Zoran, be realistic...your argument is illogical! Wendy >>Dear Mani and Wendy, Not these houses, but grahas placed in 3/6/10/11 can grow... There is the key to increase the free will... Best wishes, Zoran<< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2001 Report Share Posted September 16, 2001 Dear Wendy, Wendy Vasicek wrote: > Zoran: > Of course planets in these houses grow in strength with the passage of time...this is basic jyotish principle. But do they grow because we "will" them to?...if we didn't consciously "will" this, would planets in growing houses not grow?? > > C'mon Zoran, be realistic...your argument is illogical! There are many people who have no idea about jyotisha and spirituality, but of course they know that if they work harder, they would achieve success.. Such people often have lagna lord or important grahas in the Upachaya houses, such as 3rd for example. They never "willed" the planets, nor have any idea about the planets or karma..So the planets in these houses grow, no matter whether they have knowledge of jyotisha or karma.. So they do not even know what ":willing the planets" mean.. About being realistic and illogical arguments, illogical to whom? to you? is that the absolute truth? Best wishes, Zoran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2001 Report Share Posted September 16, 2001 Dear Wendy, Wendy Vasicek wrote: > Zoran: > Of course planets in these houses grow in strength with the passage of time...this is basic jyotish principle. But do they grow because we "will" them to?...if we didn't consciously "will" this, would planets in growing houses not grow?? > > C'mon Zoran, be realistic...your argument is illogical! There are many people who have no idea about jyotisha and spirituality, but of course they know that if they work harder, they would achieve success.. Such people often have lagna lord or important grahas in the Upachaya houses, such as 3rd for example. They never "willed" the planets, nor have any idea about the planets or karma..So the planets in these houses grow, no matter whether they have knowledge of jyotisha or karma.. So they do not even know what ":willing the planets" mean.. About being realistic and illogical arguments, illogical to whom? to you? is that the absolute truth? Best wishes, Zoran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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