Guest guest Posted September 12, 2001 Report Share Posted September 12, 2001 Ya know....when you make blanket statements such as 'the people in the West have to stop dragging God's name through the mud' (whatever)...THAT is where I take issue because it is NOT fair to many of us who do NOT take God's name and abuse it in such a way. So...like you...I can take the stance of "I don't care' what people think...I'm going to say what I feel anyway. You can take your opinion insofar as blanket beliefs and you know where you can put them, in my humble opinion. Give me a break. People are and SHOULD BE accountible for their own actions without some or all of us 'doing' something about their actions 'in the name of' your cause, beliefs, world opinion or whatever. Excuse me but who died and made YOU God to where you can dictate your idea's on to anyone else? What America decides to do is HER right...period. If it does not fit into your belief system...oh WELL. What I find SO amusing is that America is constantly downed for being a country that has strongarmed other people throughout the world but the minute a world catastrophe happens....who gets called on the carpet? WE do ...."well what are you going to do about x, y and z" and I find that CONVENIENT....don't you? :::shaking head::: Sure takes a lot of nerve. Like go mind your own business. Renee >>> subra 09/12/01 06:43AM >>> Manriquez R. Mauricio I. wrote: > We just want astrological points of view. OK > > > Mani, > > Please keep your ideas for how to solve this problem inside of yourself. > > This is not the place to promote political reactionism. Some will find it > > offensive. > > Thanks This was an attack on humanity. Did any astrologer help to foresee the events and prevent the tragedy? This is an astrological list, yes! But it is a human list, I have friends on this list, many live in the US. At such times the rules have to be forgotten. Shall I analyze why it all happened by talking of transits? Whom will it help? Will it stop the next attack? Is it a "political" problem only? Which of the victims was a politician? We are people, and want our safety! What will Bush do for us, sitting in a bomb shelter at the White House? No, I do not ask for reactionism, but a clear answer to the terrorism. There are two factors in this: an injustice done to the Palestinians and an Islamic fundamentalism. Both have to be corrected. The rights of the Palestiniasns have to be unconditionally recognized and restored. The fundamentalists are terrorizing not only the world, but their own people! Islam is a religion based on love, brotherhood and equality of all! Yet these extreme groups insist on violence, by misreading the koran wrong and trying to use it to gain power. Our pacific attitude encourages them. So what is wrong if I say, Fight them! I do not care who finds my views offensive. People like Mumin Bey are Moslems out of love and will understand me when I shout at the false Moslems who spread violence. A few hundred years ago christians were no better, killed in the name of Jesus. But the people in the west have put an end to this dragging of God s name into the mud! It is time that the Middle East did the same, and our duty is to see that this is done. That is the purpose of the UN! regards Mani gjlist- Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2001 Report Share Posted September 12, 2001 Renee Serrano wrote: > Ya know....when you make blanket statements such as 'the people in the West > have to stop dragging God's name through the mud' (whatever)... Dear Renee, You have read me wrong: I wrote: "But the people in the west have put an end to this dragging of God´s name into the mud!" I did not say the west was dragging the name of God into the mud, BUT that now they should stop this in the REST of the world, just as they put an end to this evil in their own countries: the crusades, the inquisition, the witch-hunting etc. The US is an example of human tolerance within its borders, people of many races and beliefs can live together. The US is also a leading, THE LEADING NATION and has a responsibility to spread this tolerance in the world. > Excuse me but who died and made YOU God to where you > can dictate your idea's on to anyone else? What America decides to do is > HER right...period. If it does not fit into your belief system...oh WELL. Expression of one´s feelings is democracy, not imposition on others! Today in our German parliament many said, "today we are americans" just as JFK once said, "I am a Berliner!" Are you alone affected? We are all affected. and if I say openly that certain American policies were wrong, am I accusing the American people? America has spread chewing gum and cocacola, what happens there comes to all of us inevitably, be it computers or whatever else! America leads voluntarily as well as unintentionally! If america does good, the whole world benefits, if it makes a mistake, the world suffers! > What I find SO amusing is that America is constantly downed for being a > country that has strongarmed other people throughout the world but the > minute a world catastrophe happens....who gets called on the carpet? WE do > ...."well what are you going to do about x, y and z" and I find that > CONVENIENT....don't you? :::shaking head::: Sure takes a lot of nerve. > Like go mind your own business. NO!!! I do not think like this. Amnerica has done a great deal of good. Way back in the 1940s Isolationism was the motto of the US - non interference in world affairs. Pearl Harbour changed this. America put an end to the terror from Germany and Japan. But what followed was not good or clever. Sides were taken to gain allies, but all too often the support was given to those who oppressed their own people. Conflicts were created to sell arms, commercial interests outweighed morals. We still see the effects: Philip Morris tells our national health system that it should be grateful to them: smokers die early and save costs! Can you get more cynical? I don´t shake my head and ask,"What are you going to do about it?" with smugness. I ask "What are you going to do about this? How can we help? Have you examined the situation carefully? .... We have all much to lose, so please let us think over this, consider the consequences of all our actions!" This is not an internal matter of the US. The WTC was not just a tourist attraction. It was the hub of the commercial world. Over 30,000 people worked there. I live in a village which has a population of 1500! This attack is not just against you, it is against me and all my fellow citizens. Will you deny me the right to voice my opinions? I have dear relatives and friends in the US, my nephew works in Washington, not far from the Pentagon. Will you then stop me from shouting? No, i am not God, but a human being in despair! Nor did I attack Moslems or Jews. The first announcements said that Palestinians were responsible. So i reacted to that situation: Israel is unjust to the Palestinians, the latter resort to terror. Both sides need a thrashing. And as to the 99% moslems who are pacific, by being pacific they encourage! The whole day today I have been hearing about JEHAD! We cannot fight this guerilla Jehad, cannot frisk every citizen who enters a bus or train or plane! Only the silent supporters can fight this terror. There is a story about some city in ancient Greece. The men wanted to fight some war, but the women denied them sex to compel them to peace! If all the pacific women of Islam unite and withdraw all support for the fundamentalists, the terror will die. Taliban - sounds like Caliban in Shakespeare´s Tempest - is out of place in our times. Babar the Moghul was king of afghanistan and was a saint! So was his poor son. And on that holy throne are murderers. Once more I venture to SUGGEST what the US can do: threaten draconic measures for those who break the world peace, BUT give aid to raise the standard of living in the Moslem countries. Yes, build a mosque and pay to teach the Koran in its original form, with its message of love. i am a world citizen and do not respect nations and their dogmas. I am human and all that matters to me is the mutual respect of human beings. Show me one nation that has a clean shirt!.... Hopis perhaps..... We are one great family and everyone has the right to speak out his opinion. All have the right to reject the opinion expressed! You sit in your chair and write to me defending the west (unnecessarily!) and US policy. For hours now there are at least two persons under the WTC who have sent out SOS signals - and the rescue crew cannot get to them! Allah bismilla, Allah is merciful! regards Mani > > Renee > > >>> subra 09/12/01 06:43AM >>> > Manriquez R. Mauricio I. wrote: > > We just want astrological points of view. OK > > > > > > Mani, > > > Please keep your ideas for how to solve this problem inside of yourself. > > > This is not the place to promote political reactionism. Some will find it > > > offensive. > > > Thanks > > This was an attack on humanity. Did any astrologer help to foresee the events > and prevent the tragedy? This is an astrological list, yes! But it is a human > list, I have friends on this list, many live in the US. At such times the > rules > have to be forgotten. Shall I analyze why it all happened by talking of > transits? Whom will it help? Will it stop the next attack? > > Is it a "political" problem only? Which of the victims was a politician? We > are > people, and want our safety! What will Bush do for us, sitting in a bomb > shelter > at the White House? No, I do not ask for reactionism, but a clear answer to > the > terrorism. There are two factors in this: an injustice done to the > Palestinians > and an Islamic fundamentalism. Both have to be corrected. The rights of the > Palestiniasns have to be unconditionally recognized and restored. The > fundamentalists are terrorizing not only the world, but their own people! > Islam > is a religion based on love, brotherhood and equality of all! Yet these > extreme > groups insist on violence, by misreading the koran wrong and trying to use it > to > gain power. Our pacific attitude encourages them. So what is wrong if I say, > Fight them! > > I do not care who finds my views offensive. People like Mumin Bey are Moslems > out of love and will understand me when I shout at the false Moslems who > spread > violence. A few hundred years ago christians were no better, killed in the > name > of Jesus. But the people in the west have put an end to this dragging of God > s > name into the mud! It is time that the Middle East did the same, and our duty > is to see that this is done. > > That is the purpose of the UN! > > regards > Mani > > > > gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2001 Report Share Posted September 12, 2001 duh...I am not 'sitting in a chair' such as at home ...comfortable in some stuck up highly decorated room in some castle m'dear. I work for the Government as a counselor and I have been seeing mental health patients all day who are in DIRE straights due to being abused either by parents, children, spouses or whatever...or for other chemical and behavioral reasons. My charity work IS my job. So don't preach to me about doing my part for the world. I do my part for a multi-racial and multi-language area of California...a melting pot unto itself. I work LONG days and commute LONG distances to do my job. My only break? To be able to tune into astro email's now and then to escape from all the pain and violence I see everyday...not to listen to your 'opinion' the day after something horrific happened to MY country and then listen to someone else on the list pat YOU on the back and say 'oh poor Mani'...barf! I happened to now know that I lost two friends in that explosion yesterday. This IS very personal to many of us. I TOO have a right to my opinion so before you go popping off making rash judgements about ME and mine...try to get to know us first...ok? >>> subra 09/12/01 02:44PM >>> Renee Serrano wrote: > Ya know....when you make blanket statements such as 'the people in the West > have to stop dragging God's name through the mud' (whatever)... Dear Renee, You have read me wrong: I wrote: "But the people in the west have put an end to this dragging of God s name into the mud!" I did not say the west was dragging the name of God into the mud, BUT that now they should stop this in the REST of the world, just as they put an end to this evil in their own countries: the crusades, the inquisition, the witch-hunting etc. The US is an example of human tolerance within its borders, people of many races and beliefs can live together. The US is also a leading, THE LEADING NATION and has a responsibility to spread this tolerance in the world. > Excuse me but who died and made YOU God to where you > can dictate your idea's on to anyone else? What America decides to do is > HER right...period. If it does not fit into your belief system...oh WELL. Expression of one s feelings is democracy, not imposition on others! Today in our German parliament many said, "today we are americans" just as JFK once said, "I am a Berliner!" Are you alone affected? We are all affected. and if I say openly that certain American policies were wrong, am I accusing the American people? America has spread chewing gum and cocacola, what happens there comes to all of us inevitably, be it computers or whatever else! America leads voluntarily as well as unintentionally! If america does good, the whole world benefits, if it makes a mistake, the world suffers! > What I find SO amusing is that America is constantly downed for being a > country that has strongarmed other people throughout the world but the > minute a world catastrophe happens....who gets called on the carpet? WE do > ...."well what are you going to do about x, y and z" and I find that > CONVENIENT....don't you? :::shaking head::: Sure takes a lot of nerve. > Like go mind your own business. NO!!! I do not think like this. Amnerica has done a great deal of good. Way back in the 1940s Isolationism was the motto of the US - non interference in world affairs. Pearl Harbour changed this. America put an end to the terror from Germany and Japan. But what followed was not good or clever. Sides were taken to gain allies, but all too often the support was given to those who oppressed their own people. Conflicts were created to sell arms, commercial interests outweighed morals. We still see the effects: Philip Morris tells our national health system that it should be grateful to them: smokers die early and save costs! Can you get more cynical? I don t shake my head and ask,"What are you going to do about it?" with smugness. I ask "What are you going to do about this? How can we help? Have you examined the situation carefully? .... We have all much to lose, so please let us think over this, consider the consequences of all our actions!" This is not an internal matter of the US. The WTC was not just a tourist attraction. It was the hub of the commercial world. Over 30,000 people worked there. I live in a village which has a population of 1500! This attack is not just against you, it is against me and all my fellow citizens. Will you deny me the right to voice my opinions? I have dear relatives and friends in the US, my nephew works in Washington, not far from the Pentagon. Will you then stop me from shouting? No, i am not God, but a human being in despair! Nor did I attack Moslems or Jews. The first announcements said that Palestinians were responsible. So i reacted to that situation: Israel is unjust to the Palestinians, the latter resort to terror. Both sides need a thrashing. And as to the 99% moslems who are pacific, by being pacific they encourage! The whole day today I have been hearing about JEHAD! We cannot fight this guerilla Jehad, cannot frisk every citizen who enters a bus or train or plane! Only the silent supporters can fight this terror. There is a story about some city in ancient Greece. The men wanted to fight some war, but the women denied them sex to compel them to peace! If all the pacific women of Islam unite and withdraw all support for the fundamentalists, the terror will die. Taliban - sounds like Caliban in Shakespeare s Tempest - is out of place in our times. Babar the Moghul was king of afghanistan and was a saint! So was his poor son. And on that holy throne are murderers. Once more I venture to SUGGEST what the US can do: threaten draconic measures for those who break the world peace, BUT give aid to raise the standard of living in the Moslem countries. Yes, build a mosque and pay to teach the Koran in its original form, with its message of love. i am a world citizen and do not respect nations and their dogmas. I am human and all that matters to me is the mutual respect of human beings. Show me one nation that has a clean shirt!.... Hopis perhaps..... We are one great family and everyone has the right to speak out his opinion. All have the right to reject the opinion expressed! You sit in your chair and write to me defending the west (unnecessarily!) and US policy. For hours now there are at least two persons under the WTC who have sent out SOS signals - and the rescue crew cannot get to them! Allah bismilla, Allah is merciful! regards Mani > > Renee > > >>> subra 09/12/01 06:43AM >>> > Manriquez R. Mauricio I. wrote: > > We just want astrological points of view. OK > > > > > > Mani, > > > Please keep your ideas for how to solve this problem inside of yourself. > > > This is not the place to promote political reactionism. Some will find it > > > offensive. > > > Thanks > > This was an attack on humanity. Did any astrologer help to foresee the events > and prevent the tragedy? This is an astrological list, yes! But it is a human > list, I have friends on this list, many live in the US. At such times the > rules > have to be forgotten. Shall I analyze why it all happened by talking of > transits? Whom will it help? Will it stop the next attack? > > Is it a "political" problem only? Which of the victims was a politician? We > are > people, and want our safety! What will Bush do for us, sitting in a bomb > shelter > at the White House? No, I do not ask for reactionism, but a clear answer to > the > terrorism. There are two factors in this: an injustice done to the > Palestinians > and an Islamic fundamentalism. Both have to be corrected. The rights of the > Palestiniasns have to be unconditionally recognized and restored. The > fundamentalists are terrorizing not only the world, but their own people! > Islam > is a religion based on love, brotherhood and equality of all! Yet these > extreme > groups insist on violence, by misreading the koran wrong and trying to use it > to > gain power. Our pacific attitude encourages them. So what is wrong if I say, > Fight them! > > I do not care who finds my views offensive. People like Mumin Bey are Moslems > out of love and will understand me when I shout at the false Moslems who > spread > violence. A few hundred years ago christians were no better, killed in the > name > of Jesus. But the people in the west have put an end to this dragging of God > s > name into the mud! It is time that the Middle East did the same, and our duty > is to see that this is done. > > That is the purpose of the UN! > > regards > Mani > > > > gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > gjlist- Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2001 Report Share Posted September 14, 2001 Mani, If the women associated with these groups were to deny sex to their men, they would be 'stoned' to death as these people have done many times and recently. They subjugate their women who are considered nothing more than chattel. As individuals we can do nothing to stop our governments, but I for one, do not want my children and grandchildren to grow up in a world where they fear to go into a public place. As Americans, our ancestors fought and died so that for generations we had freedoms. It is now our turn and I really think that the world will be in turmoil for a while but if the end result, as you said, is that our victory will resound throughout the world, then it is worth doing. I am old, but when I leave here to 'go home' I would like to know that the souls that I brought into the world and the souls that they brought into the world will live out their lives with only their own karma and not fear of having their lives cut short before they have fulfilled their purpose for coming here. Our karma is hard enough without needless additional stress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2001 Report Share Posted September 15, 2001 Dear Marge well said Nicholas - <Hossesgirl <gjlist> Saturday, September 15, 2001 2:35 PM Re: [gjlist] Mani/Your opinion > Mani, > If the women associated with these groups were to deny sex to their men, they > would be 'stoned' to death as these people have done many times and recently. > They subjugate their women who are considered nothing more than chattel. As > individuals we can do nothing to stop our governments, but I for one, do not > want my children and grandchildren to grow up in a world where they fear to > go into a public place. As Americans, our ancestors fought and died so that > for generations we had freedoms. It is now our turn and I really think that > the world will be in turmoil for a while but if the end result, as you said, > is that our victory will resound throughout the world, then it is worth > doing. I am old, but when I leave here to 'go home' I would like to know > that the souls that I brought into the world and the souls that they brought > into the world will live out their lives with only their own karma and not > fear of having their lives cut short before they have fulfilled their purpose > for coming here. Our karma is hard enough without needless additional stress. > > > > > > > > gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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