Guest guest Posted June 14, 2001 Report Share Posted June 14, 2001 Zoran's points are very well taken,I have also seen the frequency of inaccurate birthtimes.One strategy is to use divisional charts from the moon lagna if you are not sure about the divisional ascendant,but it is preferable to rectify using the divisionals if you have sufficient life event data to do so.My own chart was 15 minutes earlier than the birth certificate time when rectified using divisionals, and tertiary progressions. Dave p.s. of course the lower divisionals are less sensitvie to birthtime accuracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2001 Report Share Posted June 14, 2001 Dear Friends, Let me say something about blind analyses, please. Blind analyses are excellent for mutual learning and experience above all. However, I have certain doubts about analyses based on unrectified birth time which in my experience may be off even 15-20 minutes, comparing to birth certificate or mother's report. In such cases, vimsotari dasha would shift considerably in case we wish to pinpoint the exact day... Futhermore, what to say about divisional charts? I understand that some jyotishas use rashi and navamsa only, which would subsequently mean that the rest is trully left out on the intuition. With rashi and navamsa chart, consistent LOGICAL approach is not complete, since there are twin and other cases where both charts may be the same, but their lives different...In such cases, jyotishas with developed intuition would supplement their rashi-navamsa readings with their inner insight. However, if we are looking for consistent approach, we should go deeper into divisional charts, and finetune the birth time as laid out in Saravali, where he says that one cannot even step into this science without knowledge of D-charts. Therefore my doubts/suggestions are: 1.We should enlist some life facts about X person and correct the birthtime, or at least check rashi/navamsa/dashamsa/and other relevant charts. 2.Navamsa chart MUST be correct. How many of you are sure about your correct navamsa chart?There are jyotishas who correctred their D-charts, after a long study end experience of jyotish. In my own experience, more than 50% of charts I 've read so far had incorrect birth time(from 2-3 till 20 minutes) In some cases, navamsa and other charts changed with correction of 1 minute only. I 've had recently had a chart of person where I even had to change lagna. With the given time, lagna was in leo. However, when I saw a person and was given some life-facts/events, I had to change lagna to cancer. Further checking proved cancer lagna and meen navamsa in totto. I gave predicition about marriage around 15th september 2001, to be later on told, that the wedding will have already been arranged at 15th september. We may discuss such cases if you wish.. With regards, Zoran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2001 Report Share Posted June 14, 2001 Zoran: >1.We should enlist some life facts about X person and correct the birthtime, or at >least check rashi/navamsa/dashamsa/and other relevant charts. I appreciate your reluctance to give it a try without elaborate rectification. However, we now have an event (emigration on Dec 3 1974) to help recitify the chart if you wish. However, I suspect that won't be enough to satisfy your needs. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2001 Report Share Posted June 14, 2001 Dear Zoran, you are right. But do you really know for example which ayanamsha ist to be taken with vimshottari dasa system? I think, Lahiri has been installed to be official now long time after vimshottari system established. The other question is, when did divisional charts occur and what ayanamsha has been taken with that introduction? So, not only birthtime is to rectify but even different ayanamshas can produce heavy differences to divisional charts and vimshottari system. Look into our quiz: the woman emigrating to canada. She would run Rahu Moon Merc Rahu, if you take Lahiri, but Rahu Moon Ketu Ketu exactly on dec 3 1974, if you would take Krishnamurti or Houck ayanamsha, what for my opinion will much better reflect the situation of emigration in this case. Moon is karaka for home but ketu in her case really was transitting her 4th house and so additionally intensified the situation of separation ond loss of her home. Would you agree? Regards, Ilona Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2001 Report Share Posted June 14, 2001 So no takers. Guess too afraid of failure and embarassment again. If it is soooo easy because of hint just answer what occurred and that will be that. What happened on september 17, 1985 in Fort Collins Colorado USA Woman birthdate, time and place May 19, 1953 at 4.45 PM or 16.45 Memphis, Tennessee, USA If anyone would like to respond to my personal email then we talk in private and not be embarrassed. Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2001 Report Share Posted June 14, 2001 Dear Chris, > Zoran: > > >1.We should enlist some life facts about X person and correct the > birthtime, or at > >least check rashi/navamsa/dashamsa/and other relevant charts. > > I appreciate your reluctance to give it a try without elaborate > rectification. However, we now have an event (emigration on Dec 3 1974) to > help recitify the chart if you wish. > Thanks. It is not my reluctance, it is my principle -never to give chart readings without birthtime check or correction, at least -important divisional charts.. However, I may look at kaal charkra dasha sensitive to birthtime rectification and D-4 chart which should confirm the event. If you are willing to answer my questions about the chart I will be putting them.(during the process of birth time correction) For the beginning can you answer the question I posted about the lady's husband a- spiritual , intelligent younger looking spouse b-energetic, dominant, career oriented, having the marriage before Best wishes, Zoran > > However, I suspect that won't be enough to satisfy your needs. > > Chris > > > gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2001 Report Share Posted June 14, 2001 Dear Zoran: or the beginning can you answer the question I posted about the lady's husband > >a- spiritual , intelligent younger looking spouse >b-energetic, dominant, career oriented, having the marriage before I assume "having the marriage before" means a previous marriage to another woman. The answer is no. On balanced, however, I would say "b" fits best .. The husband was energetic and dominant, but also a God-fearing Christian in that tradition sense. I'm assuming here you're considering the respective effect of planets in navamsha lagna. A Pisces lagna (for 10.05) has Rahu and Sun in it and thus suggests a "b" person while if the lagna is Aquarius containing Jupiter, then that connotes a more "a" person. But I'm merely surmising here for the pleasure of figuring out your puzzle! Let me know if you have any other questions. Chris >Best wishes, >Zoran > >> >> However, I suspect that won't be enough to satisfy your needs. >> >> Chris >> >> >> gjlist- >> >> >> >> Your use of is subject to > > > >gjlist- > > > >Your use of is subject to > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2001 Report Share Posted June 14, 2001 Chris, Actually it's the other way around, 7th house in Navamsa stands for the spouse, Pisces navamsa would indicate (a) spiritual spouse because of the tapaswi yoga and Aquarius navamsa with Mars in Leo and 7th lord Sun with Rahu indicates (b) Ravi gjlist, Christopher Kevill <ckevill@i...> wrote: > Dear Zoran: > > or the beginning can you answer the question I posted about the lady's husband > > > >a- spiritual , intelligent younger looking spouse > >b-energetic, dominant, career oriented, having the marriage before > > I assume "having the marriage before" means a previous marriage to another > woman. The answer is no. On balanced, however, I would say "b" fits best > . The husband was energetic and dominant, but also a God-fearing Christian > in that tradition sense. > > I'm assuming here you're considering the respective effect of planets in > navamsha lagna. A Pisces lagna (for 10.05) has Rahu and Sun in it and thus > suggests a "b" person while if the lagna is Aquarius containing Jupiter, > then that connotes a more "a" person. But I'm merely surmising here for > the pleasure of figuring out your puzzle! > > Let me know if you have any other questions. > > Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2001 Report Share Posted June 14, 2001 Dear Donna, Please correct your words, in attempt to answer if one is fail to give correct answer and this is embracement in your words then really no body will try to attempt. A correct analysis may give wrong results some time. And wrong analysis may give correct answer. Those who will try to attempt will only learn and not those who are just watching. And if you don't have spirit to be wrong you cannot learn to be right also. And one should discuss openly and not in private in such quiz, desire of fame and feeling of defame itself is wrong for a true Astrologer. One should have courage to speak , what so ever he feels right.This apply to me, to you and to all. Though i appreciate these quiz but there should be one organizer at a time. Inder Jit Sahni Original Message ----- Donna M gjlist Thursday, June 14, 2001 11:56 PM Re: [gjlist] Blind analyses So no takers. Guess too afraid of failure and embarassment again. If it is soooo easy because of hint just answer what occurred and that will be that. What happened on september 17, 1985 in Fort Collins Colorado USA Woman birthdate, time and place May 19, 1953 at 4.45 PM or 16.45 Memphis, Tennessee, USA If anyone would like to respond to my personal email then we talk in private and not be embarrassed. Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz./ gjlist- Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2001 Report Share Posted June 14, 2001 Dear Chriss, Please see my previous posting where I commented on D-4 chart. IF you say b, than the lagna would more likely be that of Aquarius Lagna. It seems that you are considering navamsa lagna for a spouse nature. Navamsa lagna stands for the self while 7th house stands for marriage partner. Please note that many classics comment on the "looks" seen from navamsa lagna. So if aquarius lagna is correct, the husband should be dominant, and energetic, due to mars placement in 7th house, while sun ruling 7th house placed in pisces is evil for husband longevity. Can you please provide us the exact date of marriage, so that navamsa can be checked..Traditional and God fearing spouse comes from sun and guru. Do also comment on possibility of D-4 taurus lagna as given in my previous mail. Thanks Zoran Christopher Kevill wrote: > Dear Zoran: > > or the beginning can you answer the question I posted about the lady's husband > > > >a- spiritual , intelligent younger looking spouse > >b-energetic, dominant, career oriented, having the marriage before > > I assume "having the marriage before" means a previous marriage to another > woman. The answer is no. On balanced, however, I would say "b" fits best > . The husband was energetic and dominant, but also a God-fearing Christian > in that tradition sense. > > I'm assuming here you're considering the respective effect of planets in > navamsha lagna. A Pisces lagna (for 10.05) has Rahu and Sun in it and thus > suggests a "b" person while if the lagna is Aquarius containing Jupiter, > then that connotes a more "a" person. But I'm merely surmising here for > the pleasure of figuring out your puzzle! > > Let me know if you have any other questions. > > Chris > > > >Best wishes, > >Zoran > > > >> > >> However, I suspect that won't be enough to satisfy your needs. > >> > >> Chris > >> > >> > >> gjlist- > >> > >> > >> > >> Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > >gjlist- > > > > > > > >Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > > gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2001 Report Share Posted June 15, 2001 I had a quick look and thought the father of this person may have died on this day. Andrew > What happened on september 17, 1985 in Fort Collins > Colorado USA > > Woman birthdate, time and place > > May 19, 1953 at 4.45 PM or 16.45 > Memphis, Tennessee, USA > > If anyone would like to respond to my personal email > then we talk in private and not be embarrassed. > > > > Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. > http://buzz./ > > > gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2001 Report Share Posted June 15, 2001 Hi Zoran: At 03:39 AM 6/15/01 +0200, you wrote: >Dear Chriss, >Please see my previous posting where I commented on D-4 chart. IF you say b, than >the lagna would more likely be that of Aquarius Lagna. It seems that you are >considering navamsa lagna for a spouse nature. Navamsa lagna stands for the self >while 7th house stands for marriage partner. OK, but I know this point is subject to some dispute. See Hart De Fouw for example who discusses both approaches in his most recent book Light on Relationships, p 248ff. It's interesting that in this chart both lagnas can lead to conclusions of a stronger energetic spouse, depending on which house one takes to represent the spouse. Please note that many classics >comment on the "looks" seen from navamsa lagna. So if aquarius lagna is correct, >the husband should be dominant, and energetic, due to mars placement in 7th house, >while sun ruling 7th house placed in pisces is evil for husband longevity. Can you >please provide us the exact date of marriage, Perhaps you hadn't noticed but that's question 1 of the Quiz #4! I'll be happy to supply it after the quiz has concluded on June 20. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2001 Report Share Posted June 15, 2001 Hello Christopher, Christopher Kevill wrote: > Hi Zoran: > > At 03:39 AM 6/15/01 +0200, you wrote: > >Dear Chriss, > >Please see my previous posting where I commented on D-4 chart. IF you say > b, than > >the lagna would more likely be that of Aquarius Lagna. It seems that you are > >considering navamsa lagna for a spouse nature. Navamsa lagna stands for > the self > >while 7th house stands for marriage partner. > > OK, but I know this point is subject to some dispute. See Hart De Fouw for > example who discusses both approaches in his most recent book Light on > Relationships, p 248ff. It's interesting that in this chart both lagnas > can lead to conclusions of a stronger energetic spouse, depending on which > house one takes to represent the spouse. > With all due respect to Hart De Fouw, this approach of taking lagna in divisional chart is completely off and against the Jyotish parampara. What happens in D-12? Whom the lagna represents? Father or mother? 7th house stands for spouse, and the relevant chart is Navamsa. Lagna in Navamsa stands for the native in the field of dharma/marriage.This is basics of knowledge of divisional charts.Pisces Lagna indicates yonger looking spiritual partner, who takes on spiritual path as a direction of life.If that is not so, navamsa lagna must be kumba. > > Please note that many classics > >comment on the "looks" seen from navamsa lagna. So if aquarius lagna is > correct, > >the husband should be dominant, and energetic, due to mars placement in > 7th house, > >while sun ruling 7th house placed in pisces is evil for husband longevity. > Can you > >please provide us the exact date of marriage, > > Perhaps you hadn't noticed but that's question 1 of the Quiz #4! I'll be > happy to supply it after the quiz has concluded on June 20. > I understand your well intentioned approach. Please do not misunderstand my point, but this approach is completely upside-down. How can we time marriage with a probability of incorrect birth time? Are you aware that a few minutes back in this case changes navamsa lagna? How can we rely on birth certificate where more than often a birth time gets recorded after the baby has been bathed and taken care of, which may sometimes exceed 10-15 minutes? Be that as it may, I will wait for your answer and discuss the case subsequently(from the point of rectification) Best wishes, Zoran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2001 Report Share Posted June 16, 2001 Dear Zoran: >With all due respect to Hart De Fouw, this approach of taking lagna in divisional >chart is completely off and against the >Jyotish parampara. If that's the case, I wonder why De Fouw persists in his mistaken views. Put youself in the shoes of the average list member for a moment: why would they be persuaded by your view over De Fouw's, someone who has published two critically-acclaimed books and taught countless courses in jyotish over the past 20 years and is widely known and respected by most members of jyotish community? What happens in D-12? Whom the lagna represents? Father or >mother? >7th house stands for spouse, and the relevant chart is Navamsa. Lagna in Navamsa >stands for the native in the field of dharma/marriage.This >is basics of knowledge of divisional charts.Pisces Lagna indicates yonger looking >spiritual partner, who takes on spiritual path >as a direction of life.If that is not so, navamsa lagna must be kumba. Since the partner wasn't overly spiritual, your approach would indicate kumba. Now that you have surmised the navamsha lagna, why don't you submit a guess for the quiz and let us benefit from your wisdom? > >I understand your well intentioned approach. Please do not misunderstand my >point, but this approach >is completely upside-down. How can we time marriage with a probability of >incorrect birth time? Well, it's not perfect I grant you, but we have one event now (the emigration) and some notion of her partner's personality. >Are you aware that a few minutes back in this case changes navamsa lagna? How can >we rely on birth certificate >where more than often a birth time gets recorded after the baby has been bathed >and taken care of, which may >sometimes exceed 10-15 minutes? Yes, in some cases. But in many more, it is very close indeed. >Be that as it may, I will wait for your answer and discuss the case >subsequently(from the point of rectification) Whatever you like. In future quizzes, I'll try to make sure that two or three dates of life events are posted along with the birth data. Chris >Best wishes, >Zoran > > > >gjlist- > > > >Your use of is subject to > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2001 Report Share Posted June 16, 2001 Zoran Wrote: >With all due respect to Hart De Fouw, this approach of taking lagna in divisional >chart is completely off and against the >Jyotish parampara. Dear Zoran, It depends, I think, on which parampara (tradition) you follow. There are many schools of thought out there today, all claiming to follow this or that tradition. It must be very confusing to the budding students. Although I appreciate the value of divisionals, I think more emphasis should be given to Rashi when rectifying T.O.B. The traditional method is to confirm (aprox) six major events using Vimsottari dasa system and Lahiri ayanamsha. I have to admit I haven't read De Fouw or most of the other modern authors except for Braha, L.R. Chawdhri...). My learning, for the most part, has come from the classics, directly from people's charts and from the direct instruction of several wise pundits...who, before giving a reading, ask one or two relevant questions to verify the horoscope. They give predictions...but within a time frame; i.e "you will start a new business during this time" or "care whilst driving your car must be taken during this time" or "there may be some concerns for finances during this time"...this is the sort of prediction given by wise pundits who have practised for decades. Pinpointing any event to a particular day is (to my mind) a time-consuming, pointless exercise that no experienced pundit would engage in. There are always so many variables to consider...sookshmantar dasa, transits, etc...what practicing astrologer has time for all that? These are my thoughts...of course others have theirs. Regards, Wendy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2001 Report Share Posted June 17, 2001 Hi Wendy, > > Although I appreciate the value of divisionals, I think more emphasis should > be given to Rashi when rectifying T.O.B. The traditional method is to > confirm (aprox) six major events using Vimsottari dasa system and Lahiri > ayanamsha. IMHO, For rectifying TOB one has to go into divisional charts. Lets say we are trying to verify the events of 1. Buying a house. 2. Mother's ill-health. 3. Graduating from college. Now the 4H represents all the above i.e House, Mother & Education. How would you distinguish between the 3. Perhaps a really talented astrologer and who has good spiritual insight and Vakabala(Strength of speech) and intuition may pull through, but not an astrologer who goes about in a logical and scientific manner. Here is where D-Charts come in and bail us out. WE use D-4 or ChaturthAmsa for (1), D-12 or DwaDasamsa for (2) and D-24 or ChaturthAmsa for (3). Hence D-chart is a must, because it gives deeper insight into that particular aspect of life. > > I have to admit I haven't read De Fouw or most of the other modern authors > except for Braha, L.R. Chawdhri...). My learning, for the most part, has > come from the classics, directly from people's charts and from the direct > instruction of several wise pundits...who, before giving a reading, ask one > or two relevant questions to verify the horoscope. They give > predictions...but within a time frame; i.e "you will start a new business > during this time" or "care whilst driving your car must be taken during this > time" or "there may be some concerns for finances during this time"...this > is the sort of prediction given by wise pundits who have practised for > decades. > I am not saying that it is *impossible* to get all the info from Rasi, infact there are some pundits who just restrict themsselves to Rasi chart. These are the priveliged ones who have tremendous intuition or some strange secret that they are able to decipher everything just from Rsai Chart. I am not one of those, and if you are , glory to you. But for other D-Charts is a must. > Pinpointing any event to a particular day is (to my mind) a time-consuming, > pointless exercise that no experienced pundit would engage in. There are > always so many variables to consider...sookshmantar dasa, transits, > etc...what practicing astrologer has time for all that? > > These are my thoughts...of course others have theirs. > > Regards, Wendy Wendy, the idea is to give a pattern of likely events that may have occured without stretching the rules or principles. Regards Narayan Iyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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