Guest guest Posted June 11, 2001 Report Share Posted June 11, 2001 Hi All: Well, one week has elapsed so it's time to show-and-tell: on Dec 3 1974, the native emigrated to Canada from the Philippines. Nobody got this right unfortunately. It IS worth noting that two of you thought death or illness to mother. This is a case of the right house, (the 4th) but wrong karaka! In many ways, emigration from one's native land is a "death" of one's home. So perhaps Sanny (Babyscoop) and Visti can elaborate how they focused on the 4th house. One of the classic markers for emigration in a chart is a combination of 4th and 12th houses. 4th lord Venus is in the 6th aspecting the 12th,and not only that, but aspecting a planet in the 12th, Jupiter in this case. I think the presence of any planet in a house makes it easily to "receive" an aspect. In addition, that 12th house Jupiter aspects the 4th and it, too, has planets(Mars and Mercury), to receive its aspect. Mars returns the favour as it aspects the 12th house. Also, the 12th lord Saturn aspects the 4th house. The second most popular combination for emigration is 7/12, since the 7th is often cited as representing foreign residence and the 12th is foreign places in general. 12th lord Saturn is in the 7th house and it aspects the ascendant(the self). That's the natal chart but how does the Rahu-Mars dasha fit in? (Rahu-Moon parallax) Rahu is in the 2nd house in Pisces, aspected by the Moon, the karaka for home. Rahu's lord, Jupiter, is in the 12th aspected by the 4th lord Venus. Rahu's star lord is Mercury and it's in the 4th house afflicted by Mars and aspected/afflicted by 12th lord Saturn. Mars is in the 4th house, aspected by 12th lord Saturn. Mars' star lord is also Mars so that perhaps reinforces its 4th house affliction by 12th lord Saturn. The transits are interesting. Rahu is in the 10th(hence all the career mentions) and not only that, it's less than one degree from the MEP(most effective point, 16Sc48) of the 10th house. Ketu is doing the same to the 4th. I don't know if this an example of Rahu casting an opposition aspect -- something it supposedly can't do -- but at very least there is very close nodal activity to the 4th house. In most versions of jyotish, nodal transits are effective without a necessary buttress from the dasha lord. Jupiter was one degree off the Ascendant. Should this best be interpreted as a 12th house influence (Jupiter is placed in the natal 12th) on the 1st house of the self? Saturn transited the 5th house and aspected 7th (it's own position and 12th lord), 11th, and Rahu in the 2nd. Rahu, as we have seen, has some significant 4th/12th connections. Mars was in Scorpio the 10th aspecting the 4th, as was Sun, Mercury, and Venus. Two's company, five's a crowd! Anyway, as always, it's easy to see these things after the fact. I suspect there are lots of ways to find emigration here depending on your favourite methods. So I'll pass it over now for you to bat it back and forth. Thanks again to all who participated. It's great to see this level of interest in something that is so important for improving our understanding of how astrology actually works. Chris PS I have an idea for Quiz #2 using the same chart if there's interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2001 Report Share Posted June 11, 2001 Dear Chris, There is no definition of emigration in the Astrology. A long distant journey or settling at a far place is the only way to define it. A person getting his choiced house and place will be dealt by 4rth house as in this case. But 3rd house involvement shows change and getting a house/place/station. It invariably was a career journey, (12th lord Saturn and 3rd lord mars shows journey ). As 10th house and 6th house involvement , shows gain in career ; it is due to change of place. A women joining her husband after immigration will have different combination. A student going abroad for education will have different combination. In this case what cause her to migrate ?Actually guess should be that an incident which caused her change in life and gives boost in her career. My guess was for that . It was an incident which caused boost in her career. At the verge of end of Rahu Mahadasa means also change in life style. So what cause her to migrate and what were the results of migration is the real answer to your quiz. If you will elaborate on these points? Inder Jit Sahni - Christopher Kevill gjlist Tuesday, June 12, 2001 5:56 AM [gjlist] GJ List Quiz #1 -- Answer Hi All: Well, one week has elapsed so it's time to show-and-tell: on Dec 3 1974, the native emigrated to Canada from the Philippines. Nobody got this right unfortunately. It IS worth noting that two of you thought death or illness to mother. This is a case of the right house, (the 4th) but wrong karaka! In many ways, emigration from one's native land is a "death" of one's home. So perhaps Sanny (Babyscoop) and Visti can elaborate how they focused on the 4th house. One of the classic markers for emigration in a chart is a combination of 4th and 12th houses. 4th lord Venus is in the 6th aspecting the 12th,and not only that, but aspecting a planet in the 12th, Jupiter in this case. I think the presence of any planet in a house makes it easily to "receive" an aspect. In addition, that 12th house Jupiter aspects the 4th and it, too, has planets(Mars and Mercury), to receive its aspect. Mars returns the favour as it aspects the 12th house. Also, the 12th lord Saturn aspects the 4th house. The second most popular combination for emigration is 7/12, since the 7th is often cited as representing foreign residence and the 12th is foreign places in general. 12th lord Saturn is in the 7th house and it aspects the ascendant(the self). That's the natal chart but how does the Rahu-Mars dasha fit in? (Rahu-Moon parallax) Rahu is in the 2nd house in Pisces, aspected by the Moon, the karaka for home. Rahu's lord, Jupiter, is in the 12th aspected by the 4th lord Venus. Rahu's star lord is Mercury and it's in the 4th house afflicted by Mars and aspected/afflicted by 12th lord Saturn. Mars is in the 4th house, aspected by 12th lord Saturn. Mars' star lord is also Mars so that perhaps reinforces its 4th house affliction by 12th lord Saturn. The transits are interesting. Rahu is in the 10th(hence all the career mentions) and not only that, it's less than one degree from the MEP(most effective point, 16Sc48) of the 10th house. Ketu is doing the same to the 4th. I don't know if this an example of Rahu casting an opposition aspect -- something it supposedly can't do -- but at very least there is very close nodal activity to the 4th house. In most versions of jyotish, nodal transits are effective without a necessary buttress from the dasha lord. Jupiter was one degree off the Ascendant. Should this best be interpreted as a 12th house influence (Jupiter is placed in the natal 12th) on the 1st house of the self? Saturn transited the 5th house and aspected 7th (it's own position and 12th lord), 11th, and Rahu in the 2nd. Rahu, as we have seen, has some significant 4th/12th connections. Mars was in Scorpio the 10th aspecting the 4th, as was Sun, Mercury, and Venus. Two's company, five's a crowd! Anyway, as always, it's easy to see these things after the fact. I suspect there are lots of ways to find emigration here depending on your favourite methods. So I'll pass it over now for you to bat it back and forth. Thanks again to all who participated. It's great to see this level of interest in something that is so important for improving our understanding of how astrology actually works. Chris PS I have an idea for Quiz #2 using the same chart if there's interest. gjlist- Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2001 Report Share Posted June 11, 2001 Christopher Kevill : 1. Practically all the factors you mention for emigration are present in my chart too. I have to study it deeper. 2. Basically I see a prolem with the quiz: emigration, marriage or whatever else is an inherent feature of a chart and to pick the right event for a given date is naturally difficult. So if we all missed it, I don´t see that as a "failure". 3. The main point is this: only Inder Jit and I saw a "positive" development, a success in something the lady was striving for. For most people in the non-western world getting to America (US or Canada) is a GREAT thing: it is a struggle to get the permit. A new hope in life. Although I misread the LSRs, you will find they reflect this very well. I said, "sudden success, with stress and anxiety before, stress with organizing after that". Exactly what happens when you emigrate. I know from personal experience: the dreadful period of waiting to get an entry visa, the elation of getting it at last, emotional and practical problems of leaving forever, the hopes of a great future, the problems in the new country etc. So I think Inder Jit and I did not do too badly. The point is this: we saw good things happening, but the majority was in favour of disaster, even death! So i am happy the LSRs are vindicated at least as to positive and negative periods. regards Mani PS: okay a second quiz can be sent out. But I may not have time for it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2001 Report Share Posted June 12, 2001 Dear Mani, would like to mention, that I said career too. regards, Ilona Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2001 Report Share Posted June 12, 2001 Dear Chris I thought this chart showed clearly this person was never going to stay in the country of birth. Firstly Saturn as lagna lord is in the 7th house. This or a malefic in the 7th house can show emigration especially if the planet is Saturn as it aspects the 4th house of the homeland by its worst aspect. Mars in the 4th house is not good for the Mother or life in the home country as a general rule. The lord of 4th house from the Moon Jupiter is within 1 degree of being exactly neecha. The Moon is a stinker in the 8th house with Ketu in the sign of Mercury which is afflicted by both Mars and Saturn. I think this was very hard to predict this was the day of emigration as lagna lord Saturn was retrograde in the 5th house and aspected by Mars. Scorpio was packed with planets in the 10th house and third house from natal Moon. With Jupiter in the 12th house of foreign lands it is clear that the Jupiter mahadahsa would have been the time she would be living in a foreign country. I thought there must of been a sudden Mars like event before this and chose loss of partner as Sun as 7th lord was associated with transit Saturn and afflicted by transit Mars. Sun on that day was on a mrityu bhaga point and within 1 degree of the nodes. When I showed this chart to Pundit he actually said straight out that this woman would have left the country of birth at this time as Jupiter in the 12th house would put her in a foreign country and she was going to enter Jupiter mahadasha immediately after this Mars sub period. I still think it was very hard to actually say it is clear she would emigrate on this day. Pundit agreed with my theory on death of a partner had some merit as the navamsha is very very bad and the Sun is hammered in the navamsha. How has this woman done relationship wise? Did she leave behind a lover when she emigrated? Look at the 7th lord Sun on that day. Maybe it was her father as shown by the Sun who was the heartbroken one! I would suggest we at first start with very blatant events like death of a parent or partner or actual death of the chart owner. We need to start with the obvious as the day of somebody emigrating is very hard to try to predict. I have a one excellent chart here I would like to put up with a very clear major event where I have exact times for. Can I put my chart up next ? It is a major event involving some very interesting things. Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2001 Report Share Posted June 12, 2001 Hello Chris. > It IS worth noting that two of you thought death or illness to mother. > This is a case of the right house, (the 4th) but wrong karaka! In many > ways, emigration from one's native land is a "death" of one's home. So > perhaps Sanny (Babyscoop) and Visti can elaborate how they focused on the > 4th house. I think i was abit colored by Sanny's short analysis, and wanted to prove that the mother didn't die, yet my mistake was not considering Mercury in 4th. Mercury rules the Pri-tattwa, and any disturbance of it(mars) shows a move of earth, i.e. travel, this is especially the focus in Taurus and earthy sign. If I had taken the time and merely calculated the Narayana Dasa of the Rasi chart, and considered the Chathurthamsa, i should have been able to pinpoint the actual event. Well there goes being silly.. =). Please go ahead and give another quiz on this chart. Best wishes, Visti. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2001 Report Share Posted June 12, 2001 Dear Chris and all, When there is a living quiz why turn to a blind one.? Das enquired for his life partner , let us find out what is in store for him and when? We may take up this case , if das will permit to do so. Inder Jit Sahni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2001 Report Share Posted June 12, 2001 Hello: I'm a bit perplexed by the refusal of some members to accept "failure" here. In my experience, failure is normal in these tests, and the vast majority of participants fail, including me, I hasten to add. I agree that emigration to the West is the path to success so it can be linked to 10th house factors, etc, etc. But that is so much rationalization, isn't it? Emigration is a real-life practical question. My point here is that if you had seen this woman as client *before* Dec 1974, none would have predicted emigration as something upcoming. Obviously, in real life, she might have been considering it for a year or more, so she might have asked about it, but I wonder how many astrologers would have seen it and moreover got the timing right on it. I think many more astrologers would have predicted "yes, you will emigrate" (a 50-50 prediction) if she had asked about it several years before, but how many would have got the year or the month right? Not too many, I think. I just don't see the point in pretending that you're not really wrong, or it's not an important enough question or whatever. The point is to accept the facts as they are and try to learn how it could have been predicted. Being in a state of denial doesn't make us better astrologers. It makes us complacent and mentally flabby. This is why blind tests are so informative. They strip away all the high-sounding theories and return us all to state of equality before the facts. Sure, there are multiple realities to every event. If someone had suggested that the native would experience a great period of excitement or confusion, then that would have been correct too, although no mention of emigration would have been made. Vedic astrology is supposed to be superior to all other astrologies because of its predictive specificity. Too often, much of this alleged superiority is expressed in hindsight only, based on past events where the facts are fitted to conform with the theory. As I think we all know, this is too easy to do and doesn't help us figure out which techniques work best. In my opinion, the only way we are going to interpret, streamline, and clarify astrological techniques is through correct prediction, or as in this case, blind testing. just searching for truth here, Chris At 07:39 AM 6/12/01 +0200, you wrote: >Christopher Kevill : > > >1. Practically all the factors you mention for emigration are present in my >chart too. I have to study it deeper. > >2. Basically I see a prolem with the quiz: emigration, marriage or whatever else >is an inherent feature of a chart and to pick the right event for a given date >is naturally difficult. So if we all missed it, I don´t see that as a >"failure". > >3. The main point is this: only Inder Jit and I saw a "positive" development, a >success in something the lady was striving for. For most people in the >non-western world getting to America (US or Canada) is a GREAT thing: it is a >struggle to get the permit. A new hope in life. > >Although I misread the LSRs, you will find they reflect this very well. I said, >"sudden success, with stress and anxiety before, stress with organizing after >that". Exactly what happens when you emigrate. I know from personal experience: >the dreadful period of waiting to get an entry visa, the elation of getting it >at last, emotional and practical problems of leaving forever, the hopes of a >great future, the problems in the new country etc. > >So I think Inder Jit and I did not do too badly. > >The point is this: we saw good things happening, but the majority was in favour >of disaster, even death! > >So i am happy the LSRs are vindicated at least as to positive and negative >periods. > >regards >Mani > >PS: okay a second quiz can be sent out. But I may not have time for it! > > > > > >gjlist- > > > >Your use of is subject to > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2001 Report Share Posted June 12, 2001 Dear Inder: At 05:43 PM 6/12/01 +0530, you wrote: >Dear Chris and all, >When there is a living quiz why turn to a blind one.? >Das enquired for his life partner , let us find out what is in store for him and when? Predicting a future event is no test of astrology as long as the event has not yet come to pass. So if we predict all sorts of marriage fates and dates, what will this prove? Nothing, because Das's actual marriage may be months or years in the future and who will be around to debate it then? That's the point to blind tests. They focus our attention on a specific case where verification is simple and clear-cut. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2001 Report Share Posted June 12, 2001 Namaste Chris, Well Said Chris....... one should not be afraid of failures in prediction. = Nobody is perfect and one should try and learn from one's failures. However,= once we know an event, we should use the correct principles to explain it. = One should not compromise on it, otherwise one will never learn from it. Here's my hindsight 20/20 analysis: For emigration the following should be kept in mind: 1. 7H for foriegn journey. 2. 9H & 12H for residence abroad. 3. The influence of Nodes esp. Rahu indicates travel. 4. Affliction to the 4H. 5. Jalapathana & Paradesa Saham(Sesnitive Points). 6. MOST IMPORTANTLY, use of the correct divisional chart i.e. D-4 or ChaturthAmsa. Vimsottari Dasa: ---------------- Dasa of Rahu/Mars as per 360d/y was running. In D-4, Rh is 7L, aspected(Rasi Dristi) by Moon the 12L and lord of Jalapat= hana Saham. Mars is the 9L in 7H. Moreover, Paradesa Saham in D-4 is in Aq with Mars & Mercury. D4 Narayana Dasa: ----------------- Ar-Ar was running. Ar is 9H!!! Aspected by its own lord Mars from 7H with Paradesa Saham!!!! KCD --- KCD of Sg-Cn was running. Sg has Rahu!!! Cn is 12H with Jalapathana Saham. Having explained it without stretching the principles, I agree that it is v= ery difficult to pinpoint the area in chart. Thanks Chris and keep the puzzle coming Regards Narayan gjlist, Christopher Kevill <ckevill@i...> wrote: > Hello: > > I'm a bit perplexed by the refusal of some members to accept "failure" > here. In my experience, failure is normal in these tests, and the vast > majority of participants fail, including me, I hasten to add. I agree th= at > emigration to the West is the path to success so it can be linked to 10th= > house factors, etc, etc. But that is so much rationalization, isn't it? > Emigration is a real-life practical question. My point here is that if y= ou > had seen this woman as client *before* Dec 1974, none would have predicte= d > emigration as something upcoming. Obviously, in real life, she might have= > been considering it for a year or more, so she might have asked about it,= > but I wonder how many astrologers would have seen it and moreover got the= > timing right on it. I think many more astrologers would have predicted > "yes, you will emigrate" (a 50-50 prediction) if she had asked about it > several years before, but how many would have got the year or the month > right? Not too many, I think. > > I just don't see the point in pretending that you're not really wrong, or= > it's not an important enough question or whatever. The point is to accep= t > the facts as they are and try to learn how it could have been predicted. > Being in a state of denial doesn't make us better astrologers. It makes = us > complacent and mentally flabby. > > This is why blind tests are so informative. They strip away all the > high-sounding theories and return us all to state of equality before the > facts. Sure, there are multiple realities to every event. If someone ha= d > suggested that the native would experience a great period of excitement o= r > confusion, then that would have been correct too, although no mention of > emigration would have been made. > > Vedic astrology is supposed to be superior to all other astrologies becau= se > of its predictive specificity. Too often, much of this alleged superiori= ty > is expressed in hindsight only, based on past events where the facts are > fitted to conform with the theory. As I think we all know, this is too > easy to do and doesn't help us figure out which techniques work best. I= n > my opinion, the only way we are going to interpret, streamline, and clari= fy > astrological techniques is through correct prediction, or as in this case= , > blind testing. > > just searching for truth here, > > Chris > > > At 07:39 AM 6/12/01 +0200, you wrote: > >Christopher Kevill : > > > > > >1. Practically all the factors you mention for emigration are present in= my > >chart too. I have to study it deeper. > > > >2. Basically I see a prolem with the quiz: emigration, marriage or > whatever else > >is an inherent feature of a chart and to pick the right event for a give= n > date > >is naturally difficult. So if we all missed it, I don´t see that as a > >"failure". > > > >3. The main point is this: only Inder Jit and I saw a "positive" > development, a > >success in something the lady was striving for. For most people in the > >non-western world getting to America (US or Canada) is a GREAT thing: it= > is a > >struggle to get the permit. A new hope in life. > > > >Although I misread the LSRs, you will find they reflect this very well. = I > said, > >"sudden success, with stress and anxiety before, stress with organizing > after > >that". Exactly what happens when you emigrate. I know from personal > experience: > >the dreadful period of waiting to get an entry visa, the elation of > getting it > >at last, emotional and practical problems of leaving forever, the hopes = of a > >great future, the problems in the new country etc. > > > >So I think Inder Jit and I did not do too badly. > > > >The point is this: we saw good things happening, but the majority was in= > favour > >of disaster, even death! > > > >So i am happy the LSRs are vindicated at least as to positive and negati= ve > >periods. > > > >regards > >Mani > > > >PS: okay a second quiz can be sent out. But I may not have time for it! > > > > > > > > > > > >gjlist- > > > > > > > >Your use of is subject to http://docs./info/terms= / > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2001 Report Share Posted June 12, 2001 Dear Chris, The dates could be predicted if applied properly , Read my answer to this quiz , my assumption was that it is a 4rth house matter connected with 3rd and 10th and By Saturn i involved 6th house , which is also a 12th house lord . Rahu is positive in this chart and is good for marriage etc. I think she was an immigrant candidate long from Rahu Venus end and tried for this in Sun Moon Dasa ( moon is a strong star to give relationship. Mars antra gives her the desired place(4rth house) through change (3rd) and loss (12th house) But it provided her status 6th and 10th house matter and may be relationship or a regular start of married life. Because Jupiter in Jupiter points towards pregnancy and birth of children. I missed it in my last Para due to involvement of 5th house . Any how you did not clarify , What lead her to migrate? Important dates in this case are the event which lead her to migrate and not the migration. Getting Visa and flight are the relative events. Will you please elaborate.? Inder Jit Sahni - Christopher Kevill gjlist Tuesday, June 12, 2001 7:09 PM Re: [gjlist] GJ List Quiz #1 -- Answer Hello: I'm a bit perplexed by the refusal of some members to accept "failure" here. In my experience, failure is normal in these tests, and the vast majority of participants fail, including me, I hasten to add. I agree that emigration to the West is the path to success so it can be linked to 10th house factors, etc, etc. But that is so much rationalization, isn't it? Emigration is a real-life practical question. My point here is that if you had seen this woman as client *before* Dec 1974, none would have predicted emigration as something upcoming. Obviously, in real life, she might have been considering it for a year or more, so she might have asked about it, but I wonder how many astrologers would have seen it and moreover got the timing right on it. I think many more astrologers would have predicted "yes, you will emigrate" (a 50-50 prediction) if she had asked about it several years before, but how many would have got the year or the month right? Not too many, I think. I just don't see the point in pretending that you're not really wrong, or it's not an important enough question or whatever. The point is to accept the facts as they are and try to learn how it could have been predicted. Being in a state of denial doesn't make us better astrologers. It makes us complacent and mentally flabby. This is why blind tests are so informative. They strip away all the high-sounding theories and return us all to state of equality before the facts. Sure, there are multiple realities to every event. If someone had suggested that the native would experience a great period of excitement or confusion, then that would have been correct too, although no mention of emigration would have been made. Vedic astrology is supposed to be superior to all other astrologies because of its predictive specificity. Too often, much of this alleged superiority is expressed in hindsight only, based on past events where the facts are fitted to conform with the theory. As I think we all know, this is too easy to do and doesn't help us figure out which techniques work best. In my opinion, the only way we are going to interpret, streamline, and clarify astrological techniques is through correct prediction, or as in this case, blind testing. just searching for truth here, Chris At 07:39 AM 6/12/01 +0200, you wrote: >Christopher Kevill : > > >1. Practically all the factors you mention for emigration are present in my >chart too. I have to study it deeper. > >2. Basically I see a prolem with the quiz: emigration, marriage or whatever else >is an inherent feature of a chart and to pick the right event for a given date >is naturally difficult. So if we all missed it, I don´t see that as a >"failure". > >3. The main point is this: only Inder Jit and I saw a "positive" development, a >success in something the lady was striving for. For most people in the >non-western world getting to America (US or Canada) is a GREAT thing: it is a >struggle to get the permit. A new hope in life. > >Although I misread the LSRs, you will find they reflect this very well. I said, >"sudden success, with stress and anxiety before, stress with organizing after >that". Exactly what happens when you emigrate. I know from personal experience: >the dreadful period of waiting to get an entry visa, the elation of getting it >at last, emotional and practical problems of leaving forever, the hopes of a >great future, the problems in the new country etc. > >So I think Inder Jit and I did not do too badly. > >The point is this: we saw good things happening, but the majority was in favour >of disaster, even death! > >So i am happy the LSRs are vindicated at least as to positive and negative >periods. > >regards >Mani > >PS: okay a second quiz can be sent out. But I may not have time for it! > > > > > >gjlist- > > > >Your use of is subject to > > > > gjlist- Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2001 Report Share Posted June 12, 2001 Hi Chris et al, I've been watching the quiz from the wings as I madly rebuild websites and switch to a new server...my old one just went bankrupt...I for one have certainly felt the effect of Mercury retrograde, what could go wrong (communication wise) has. I look forward to the next quiz...I think? This is more a test than anything else to see if my new server etc, is functioning properly. Regards Wendy - Christopher Kevill gjlist Tuesday, June 12, 2001 9:39 PM Re: [gjlist] GJ List Quiz #1 -- Answer Hello: I'm a bit perplexed by the refusal of some members to accept "failure" here. In my experience, failure is normal in these tests, and the vast majority of participants fail, including me, I hasten to add. I agree that emigration to the West is the path to success so it can be linked to 10th house factors, etc, etc. But that is so much rationalization, isn't it? Emigration is a real-life practical question. My point here is that if you had seen this woman as client *before* Dec 1974, none would have predicted emigration as something upcoming. Obviously, in real life, she might have been considering it for a year or more, so she might have asked about it, but I wonder how many astrologers would have seen it and moreover got the timing right on it. I think many more astrologers would have predicted "yes, you will emigrate" (a 50-50 prediction) if she had asked about it several years before, but how many would have got the year or the month right? Not too many, I think. I just don't see the point in pretending that you're not really wrong, or it's not an important enough question or whatever. The point is to accept the facts as they are and try to learn how it could have been predicted. Being in a state of denial doesn't make us better astrologers. It makes us complacent and mentally flabby. This is why blind tests are so informative. They strip away all the high-sounding theories and return us all to state of equality before the facts. Sure, there are multiple realities to every event. If someone had suggested that the native would experience a great period of excitement or confusion, then that would have been correct too, although no mention of emigration would have been made. Vedic astrology is supposed to be superior to all other astrologies because of its predictive specificity. Too often, much of this alleged superiority is expressed in hindsight only, based on past events where the facts are fitted to conform with the theory. As I think we all know, this is too easy to do and doesn't help us figure out which techniques work best. In my opinion, the only way we are going to interpret, streamline, and clarify astrological techniques is through correct prediction, or as in this case, blind testing. just searching for truth here, Chris At 07:39 AM 6/12/01 +0200, you wrote: >Christopher Kevill : > > >1. Practically all the factors you mention for emigration are present in my >chart too. I have to study it deeper. > >2. Basically I see a prolem with the quiz: emigration, marriage or whatever else >is an inherent feature of a chart and to pick the right event for a given date >is naturally difficult. So if we all missed it, I don´t see that as a >"failure". > >3. The main point is this: only Inder Jit and I saw a "positive" development, a >success in something the lady was striving for. For most people in the >non-western world getting to America (US or Canada) is a GREAT thing: it is a >struggle to get the permit. A new hope in life. > >Although I misread the LSRs, you will find they reflect this very well. I said, >"sudden success, with stress and anxiety before, stress with organizing after >that". Exactly what happens when you emigrate. I know from personal experience: >the dreadful period of waiting to get an entry visa, the elation of getting it >at last, emotional and practical problems of leaving forever, the hopes of a >great future, the problems in the new country etc. > >So I think Inder Jit and I did not do too badly. > >The point is this: we saw good things happening, but the majority was in favour >of disaster, even death! > >So i am happy the LSRs are vindicated at least as to positive and negative >periods. > >regards >Mani > >PS: okay a second quiz can be sent out. But I may not have time for it! > > > > > >gjlist- > > > >Your use of is subject to > > > > gjlist- Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2001 Report Share Posted June 12, 2001 Christopher Kevill schrieb: > Hello: > > I'm a bit perplexed by the refusal of some members to accept "failure" > here. Dear Chris - and others too, I did not shy at accepting failure. It was not my best success. My best success was years ago, based on my LSRs. A friend gave me the same sort of quiz: what happened on a certain day? So I told him, "The period looks like a holiday journey. There is much joy, but also terror and escape (protection), being attacked by criminals or police." He was on a holidy in Paris, visiting the Eiffel Tower. Suddenly he was surrounded by gangsters who sort of snatched him as hostage, the police appeared and there was cross shooting. The gangster who held him was shot and he could free himself, but was still in great danger till he could hide behind a strut, for the criss-cross firing still went on.... the police won. ... Compared to that, this was way off! But as I said, I´m glad I saw "plus" not "minus". but there is another reason why I don´t see it as a bad failure. This reason will no doubt lead to my being stoned to death by all jyothishis. I´ll dare all and be open, so help me God! > Vedic astrology is supposed to be superior to all other astrologies because > of its predictive specificity. I consider this claim to be wishful thinking. >Too often, much of this alleged superiority > is expressed in hindsight only, based on past events where the facts are > fitted to conform with the theory. Right! Since all the houses and planets control so many factors, I think it is not possible to pinpoint any incident predictively. Palmists, Tarot readers etc. have given me very precise predictions - NOT answers to questions, BUT unexpected events - for a period of 2 years or so. One palmist looked at my hand and told me the correct date and approx. TOB, drew my rasi chart correctly. He also gave predictions for a year, but there was nothing great during that year. This was a roadside palmist and he gave me hindu dates etc. It was only after that I took any interest in astrology: dug up my horoscope etc. found that he was right (had to see if the hindu date was right!) and tried to find him again, but he had wandered! The next great palmist said to me, "You´ll be promoted next week, then 5 months later and again 8 months later. After that 1 year of nothing special." He refused to predict further, "Lines change as you work out your Karma. So I never say anything for more than two years. Come back to me again after 2 years." He too shifted and I could not find him again. But the 3 promotions were "unacceptable". The first yes, but normally expected in about 6 months, the others only after years. BUT THEY ALL CAME TRUE! Jyothishis have given me correct predictions by horary methods, for definite questions. Inder Jit was one of them. But for actual even prediction, only tropicalists and siderealists using western methods have been right in my case. They go by directions. Martin Gansten, a jyothishi, uses Brighu directions, but that is also a western method. What I see from the answers to the quiz and also other discussions: jyothishis tend to take very "traditional" views and also forget the NATURAL qualities of the planets. Although much is philosophically discussed about saturn being a good guy after all, helping one to get to Moksha, or Jupiter sometimes leading to excesses, their effects are judged almost entirely by house ownership, as malefic or benefic. The tatkalika relationship is also rarely taken into account. Looking at dasas does not really help to decide A PARTICULAR EVENT. Fleeing from enemies, Babar found a great friend in a peasant. Fleeing from enemies, his son Humayun became the father of Akbar the Great. Both were events of great joy in a period of fear, loss, misery and hardship. It was during a most terrible period in life that I had the greatest visions of God and truth! I was elated, but totally miserable about my actual situation! So a reading based on mahadasa and bukthi alone can NEVER explain this. Only the 3rd and 4th levels, if at all! All the NEGATIVE answers were VERY LOGICAL! Death, accident, widowhood etc. were all seen, based on very good jyothish principles. But the depth of search was TOO deep in one way, TOO shallow in another. Major events should, IMHO be judged by the basic chart, transits (returns) and according to NATURAL qualities. Also, not knowing anything at all about the person, one can ONLY say positive or negative. Since every planet is a karaka for various things, you must have a background about the person: a good mercury aspect can mean a success in the stock-exchange or with a best-seller book! Emigration, for instance, was "exile" in the tradiional way of thinking. Crossing the oceans was a sin - a result of bad karma - because it was dangerous. For a starving kid in Africa emigration to the States is Moksha! We should reorganize our way of interpreting jyothish. If a period says "pilgrmages", it does not mean goung to Varanasi or Puri. It can mean a visit to Mecca or Lourdes, Glastonbury or Canterbury, or a visit to any temple or church in america, like the Cathedral of St. John the Divine in Haarlem, New York, in a tourist bus! I often get the feeling that jyothishis fail to see the wood for the trees! Please see my next letter on this subject. regards Mani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2001 Report Share Posted June 12, 2001 Dear Mani, > but there is another reason why I don´t see it as a bad failure. This rea= son > will no doubt lead to my being stoned to death by all jyothishis. I´ll da= re all > and be open, so help me God! Why would anybody stone you at all ??? If we are all perfect then why are w= e here ??? Everybody makes mistake and should learn from it. So relax, nobo= dy's gonna stone you. > > > Vedic astrology is supposed to be superior to all other astrologies bec= ause > > of its predictive specificity. > > I consider this claim to be wishful thinking. > Vedic AStrology is very rich and has lot of tools. Its just that we either = do not know when, what & how to use it or simply do not know abt its existen= ce. About 90% of all jyotish secrets are known only to parampara astrologers= , who do not let them out. So if we are worried about others stoning us in the matter of solving/discu= ssing puzzles, how can we as budding astrologers solve bigger problems like = refining principles, methodologies etc. > > But for actual even prediction, only tropicalists and siderealists using = western > methods have been right in my case. They go by directions. Martin Gansten= , a > jyothishi, uses Brighu directions, but that is also a western method. > Since when has Bhrigu's method become western???? > What I see from the answers to the quiz and also other discussions: jyoth= ishis > tend to take very "traditional" views and also forget the NATURAL qualiti= es of > the planets. Although much is philosophically discussed about saturn bein= g a > good guy after all, helping one to get to Moksha, or Jupiter sometimes le= ading > to excesses, their effects are judged almost entirely by house ownership,= as > malefic or benefic. The tatkalika relationship is also rarely taken into = > account. True and a well-rounded holistic approach is needed. > > Looking at dasas does not really help to decide A PARTICULAR EVENT. > So = a reading based on mahadasa and bukthi alone can NEVER explain this. Only th= e > 3rd and 4th levels, if at all! Well said Mani, a happening of the event is a micro event and chould be ex= plained accurately only with deeper levels and not at the macro level. > > Also, not knowing anything at all about the person, one can ONLY say posi= tive or > negative. Since every planet is a karaka for various things, you must ha= ve a > background about the person: a good mercury aspect can mean a success in = the > stock-exchange or with a best-seller book! In olden days they used to have familial astrologers who knew the whole fam= ily tree. This helped them to fine-tune their predictions. > > I often get the feeling that jyothishis fail to see the wood for the tree= s! As I mentioned earlier, a holistic approach is needed. Regards Narayan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2001 Report Share Posted June 12, 2001 Dear Jyotishas, I would like to share some thoughts on the point. 1. BEFORE WE LOOK AT ANY CHART, THE TIME MUST BE FAIRLY ACCURATE, AT LEAST RASHI/NAVAMSA/ AND SOME OTHER DIVISIONAL CHARTS.Let's say within the rage of a few minutes... You are all aware that with a wrong navamsa and other charts, the correct prediciton may hardly be reached. So I would suggest a brief crosscheck of birth time whenever blind analyses are to be done. 2. Prediction of future comes ONLY after the chart has been examined as a WHOLE!!! That is why, good jyotishas fail to make a correct prediction, if required to do it at once, and viewing just a segment. I would call it reverse process, by starting to look at mahadasha, which should be done after the graha and bhava phala results are examined. 3. Jyotish DEFINITELY makes a correct predicitions if holistic approach is taken. I have a rich experience of many charts readings, and more than 90% of people, inform me after some time of the correct prediction.However, before I look at the chart, I examine it for a few hours, and correct a birthtime.. Sometimes, it is necessary to spend even more time I am planning to write a book in future, about my experiences in prediction with original testimonies of the people whose chart has been examined. Mistakes come and they should normally come to remind us to take all factors into account, and avoid quick, sensational, and superficial readings. We must be fully positive that the birthrtime is correct, and fully condifent of our words. If you are interested in what I am saying, I may present some birth charts with date of prediction given, and what happend after the prediction, and my reasons etc.. 4. I agree that in case of blind analyses, some encouraging should be offered, for the sake of beginners, so that they should enter the quiz, and learn more. Best wishes, Zoran Christopher Kevill wrote: > Hello: > > I'm a bit perplexed by the refusal of some members to accept "failure" > here. In my experience, failure is normal in these tests, and the vast > majority of participants fail, including me, I hasten to add. I agree that > emigration to the West is the path to success so it can be linked to 10th > house factors, etc, etc. But that is so much rationalization, isn't it? > Emigration is a real-life practical question. My point here is that if you > had seen this woman as client *before* Dec 1974, none would have predicted > emigration as something upcoming. Obviously, in real life, she might have > been considering it for a year or more, so she might have asked about it, > but I wonder how many astrologers would have seen it and moreover got the > timing right on it. I think many more astrologers would have predicted > "yes, you will emigrate" (a 50-50 prediction) if she had asked about it > several years before, but how many would have got the year or the month > right? Not too many, I think. > > I just don't see the point in pretending that you're not really wrong, or > it's not an important enough question or whatever. The point is to accept > the facts as they are and try to learn how it could have been predicted. > Being in a state of denial doesn't make us better astrologers. It makes us > complacent and mentally flabby. > > This is why blind tests are so informative. They strip away all the > high-sounding theories and return us all to state of equality before the > facts. Sure, there are multiple realities to every event. If someone had > suggested that the native would experience a great period of excitement or > confusion, then that would have been correct too, although no mention of > emigration would have been made. > > Vedic astrology is supposed to be superior to all other astrologies because > of its predictive specificity. Too often, much of this alleged superiority > is expressed in hindsight only, based on past events where the facts are > fitted to conform with the theory. As I think we all know, this is too > easy to do and doesn't help us figure out which techniques work best. In > my opinion, the only way we are going to interpret, streamline, and clarify > astrological techniques is through correct prediction, or as in this case, > blind testing. > > just searching for truth here, > > Chris > > At 07:39 AM 6/12/01 +0200, you wrote: > >Christopher Kevill : > > > > > >1. Practically all the factors you mention for emigration are present in my > >chart too. I have to study it deeper. > > > >2. Basically I see a prolem with the quiz: emigration, marriage or > whatever else > >is an inherent feature of a chart and to pick the right event for a given > date > >is naturally difficult. So if we all missed it, I don´t see that as a > >"failure". > > > >3. The main point is this: only Inder Jit and I saw a "positive" > development, a > >success in something the lady was striving for. For most people in the > >non-western world getting to America (US or Canada) is a GREAT thing: it > is a > >struggle to get the permit. A new hope in life. > > > >Although I misread the LSRs, you will find they reflect this very well. I > said, > >"sudden success, with stress and anxiety before, stress with organizing > after > >that". Exactly what happens when you emigrate. I know from personal > experience: > >the dreadful period of waiting to get an entry visa, the elation of > getting it > >at last, emotional and practical problems of leaving forever, the hopes of a > >great future, the problems in the new country etc. > > > >So I think Inder Jit and I did not do too badly. > > > >The point is this: we saw good things happening, but the majority was in > favour > >of disaster, even death! > > > >So i am happy the LSRs are vindicated at least as to positive and negative > >periods. > > > >regards > >Mani > > > >PS: okay a second quiz can be sent out. But I may not have time for it! > > > > > > > > > > > >gjlist- > > > > > > > >Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > > gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2001 Report Share Posted June 13, 2001 Dear Inder, can you please elaborate on this statement that you made below? >> At the verge of end of Rahu Mahadasa means also change in life style. << namaste marcia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2001 Report Share Posted June 13, 2001 Hi Andrew, Ofcourse, put it up! Love, Liliana >" Andrew Lynn" <skinbags >gjlist ><gjlist> >Re: [gjlist] GJ List Quiz #1 -- Answer >Tue, 12 Jun 2001 19:34:12 +1000 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from [208.50.99.230] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id >MHotMailBCEF297E00234004371ED03263E61B18445; Tue Jun 12 02:29:59 2001 >Received: from [10.1.4.55] by c9. with NNFMP; 12 Jun 2001 >09:28:29 -0000 >Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 12 Jun 2001 09:28:27 -0000 >Received: (qmail 48104 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2001 09:28:27 -0000 >Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9. with QMQP; 12 Jun >2001 09:28:27 -0000 >Received: from unknown (HELO mta02.mail.mel.aone.net.au) (203.2.192.82) by >mta1 with SMTP; 12 Jun 2001 09:28:27 -0000 >Received: from s6q3z2 ([63.60.249.128]) by mta02.mail.mel.aone.net.au with >SMTP id <20010612092823.LPZV6352.mta02.mail.mel.aone.net.au@s6q3z2> for ><gjlist>; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 19:28:23 +1000 >From sentto-490438-5754-992338109-astrolila Tue Jun 12 02:30:53 2001 >X-eGroups-Return: >sentto-490438-5754-992338109-astrolila=hotmail.com (AT) returns (DOT) >X-Sender: skinbags >X-Apparently-gjlist >Message-ID: <00f501c0f322$d7f6fea0$80f93c3f@s6q3z2> >References: <3.0.2.32.20010611202615.00b3590c >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 >X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 >Mailing-List: list gjlist; contact >gjlist-owner >Delivered-mailing list gjlist >Precedence: bulk >List-Un: <gjlist> > > > Dear Chris > >I thought this chart showed clearly this person was never going to stay in >the country of birth. Firstly Saturn as lagna lord is in the 7th house. >This >or a malefic in the 7th house can show emigration especially if the planet >is Saturn as it aspects the 4th house of the homeland by its worst aspect. >Mars in the 4th house is not good for the Mother or life in the home >country >as a general rule. The lord of 4th house from the Moon Jupiter is within 1 >degree of being exactly neecha. The Moon is a stinker in the 8th house with >Ketu in the sign of Mercury which is afflicted by both Mars and Saturn. > >I think this was very hard to predict this was the day of emigration as >lagna lord Saturn was retrograde in the 5th house and aspected by Mars. >Scorpio was packed with planets in the 10th house and third house from >natal >Moon. > >With Jupiter in the 12th house of foreign lands it is clear that the >Jupiter >mahadahsa would have been the time she would be living in a foreign >country. >I thought there must of been a sudden Mars like event before this and chose >loss of partner as Sun as 7th lord was associated with transit Saturn and >afflicted by transit Mars. Sun on that day was on a mrityu bhaga point and >within 1 degree of the nodes. > >When I showed this chart to Pundit he actually said straight out that this >woman would have left the country of birth at this time as Jupiter in the >12th house would put her in a foreign country and she was going to enter >Jupiter mahadasha immediately after this Mars sub period. I still think it >was very hard to actually say it is clear she would emigrate on this day. >Pundit agreed with my theory on death of a partner had some merit as the >navamsha is very very bad and the Sun is hammered in the navamsha. How has >this woman done relationship wise? Did she leave behind a lover when she >emigrated? Look at the 7th lord Sun on that day. Maybe it was her father as >shown by the Sun who was the heartbroken one! > >I would suggest we at first start with very blatant events like death of a >parent or partner or actual death of the chart owner. We need to start with >the obvious as the day of somebody emigrating is very hard to try to >predict. I have a one excellent chart here I would like to put up with a >very clear major event where I have exact times for. Can I put my chart up >next ? >It is a major event involving some very interesting things. > >Andrew > > > > > > >gjlist- > > > >Your use of is subject to > > _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2001 Report Share Posted June 13, 2001 Dear Zoran It's a pleasure to read your e-mails, I learn a lot from it,and please do share your experiences of predictions Ravi gjlist, ahimsa@p... wrote: > Dear Jyotishas, > I would like to share some thoughts on the point. > 1. BEFORE WE LOOK AT ANY CHART, THE TIME MUST BE FAIRLY ACCURATE, AT LEAST > RASHI/NAVAMSA/ AND SOME OTHER DIVISIONAL CHARTS.Let's say within the rage of a > few minutes... > You are all aware that with a wrong navamsa and other charts, the correct > prediciton may hardly be reached. So I would suggest a brief crosscheck of birth > time whenever blind analyses are to be done. > 2. Prediction of future comes ONLY after the chart has been examined as a > WHOLE!!! That is why, good jyotishas fail to make a correct prediction, if > required to do it at once, and viewing just a segment. I would call it reverse > process, by starting to look at mahadasha, which should be done after the graha > and bhava phala results are examined. > 3. Jyotish DEFINITELY makes a correct predicitions if holistic approach is taken. > I have a rich experience of many charts readings, and more than 90% of people, > inform me after some time of the correct prediction.However, before I look at the > chart, I examine it for a few hours, and correct a birthtime.. Sometimes, it is > necessary to spend even more time I am planning to write a book in future, about > my experiences in prediction with original testimonies of the people whose chart > has been examined. Mistakes come and they should normally come to remind us to > take all factors into account, and avoid quick, sensational, and superficial > readings. We must be fully positive that the birthrtime is correct, and fully > condifent of our words. If you are interested in what I am saying, I may present > some birth charts with date of prediction given, and what happend after the > prediction, and my reasons etc.. > 4. I agree that in case of blind analyses, some encouraging should be offered, > for the sake of beginners, so that they should enter the quiz, and learn more. > Best wishes, > Zoran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2001 Report Share Posted June 13, 2001 Dear Chris, You wrote: "My point here is that if you had seen this woman as client before Dec 1974, none would have predicted emigration as something upcoming." Here is a quote from my reply to the Quiz #1: "she probably left Philipines and became succesful abroad (10th lord Mars in mutual aspect with 12th lord Saturn)". I did not write that she emigrated on Dec 3, 1974, but I did see emigration clearly. It is actually quite obvious in her chart, so why do you say that none would have predicted it? I'm looking forward to your next Quiz-question, but please do your best to choose precise formulations and avoid giving us misleading information. This is NOT meant as a criticism, and please do continue sending quiz-questions, I find it a great idea and enjoy working on it, no matter if I'm wright or wrong. But I would like to make a simple suggestion in order to increase the efficiency of our work. For instance I find the information that the event took place IN Manila misleading, because the event was MOVING FROM Manila to Canada. Ofcourse the journey STARTED in Manila, but when you say that the event took place IN Manila ONE THINKS ONLY OF THINGS WHICH CAN HAPPEN IN ONE PLACE FORM THE BEGINNING UNTILL THE END. Also, emigrating from Philipines to Canada takes longer time than one day: she probably considered it for a while, then she had to apply for a visa, and to wait for the reply, and so on. So I would say that emigrating is A PROCESS WHICH HAPPENS OVER A PERIOD OF TIME. The day when she finaly got on a plane marks the end of that period, and the beginning of the period of settling in a new environment, which somehow belongs to the period of emigrating as well. SO WHEN YOU ASK WHAT HAPPENED ON DEC. 3, 1974, I THINK OF THINGS WHICH TAKE NOT LONGER THAN ONE DAY TO HAPPEN, AND EMIGRATING IS NOT ONE OF THE POSSIBILITIES. (I've been forced to emigrate by sudden circumstances, so it all happened very fast, but even in my case (without having a chance to think about it or to prepare for it and without applying for a visa) it took 4-5 days.) I don't think I'm the only one whos thinking can be led into this or that direction by certain formulations, so please bear this on mind when formulating the next question. Perhaps this event was not suitable for our Quiz because if you gave us a precise information about the place of the event you would have given us the answer as well. As the time you should have given us, in my opinion, the whole period. But I'm in fact very satisfied with my result on this one, since I clearly saw that what happend was a 4th house matter (I wrote:" Mars conjunct 8th lord in the 4th house (actually conjunct her IC)...directly afflicts her home." and she did loose her home, only in a way different from what I imagined might have happened on one single day. So I have no problems with accepting such a failure, and I don't think I would have had problems with accepting it even if I was really totally wrong. If I had such problems, I wouldn't have participated in the first place. SO PLEASE SEND THE QUIZ #2, AND PLEASE TRY IMAGINING IN WHAT WAY THE INFORMATIONS YOU GIVE US DIRECT OUR THINKING PROCESS. KINDEST REGARDS AND LOVE, Liliana >Christopher Kevill <ckevill >gjlist >gjlist >Re: [gjlist] GJ List Quiz #1 -- Answer >Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:39:52 -0400 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from [216.115.96.54] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id >MHotMailBCEF66C80082400437A2D873603677E1129; Tue Jun 12 06:43:44 2001 >Received: from [10.1.4.55] by hk. with NNFMP; 12 Jun 2001 >13:42:11 -0000 >Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 12 Jun 2001 13:42:10 -0000 >Received: (qmail 70411 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2001 13:40:51 -0000 >Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9. with QMQP; 12 Jun >2001 13:40:51 -0000 >Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.ca.inter.net) (38.210.35.210) by mta1 >with SMTP; 12 Jun 2001 13:40:50 -0000 >Received: from ip38.toronto79.dialup.canada.psi.net ([154.20.73.38] >helo=default) by smtp.ca.inter.net with smtp (Exim 3.22 #1) id >159oPe-000561-00 for gjlist; Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:40:54 >-0400 >From sentto-490438-5761-992353331-astrolila Tue Jun 12 06:44:12 2001 >X-eGroups-Return: >sentto-490438-5761-992353331-astrolila=hotmail.com (AT) returns (DOT) >X-Sender: ckevill >X-Apparently-gjlist >Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.20010612093952.00b48808 >X-Sender: ckevill >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) >In-<159gtq-1t9Nq4C >References: <3.0.2.32.20010611202615.00b3590c >Mailing-List: list gjlist; contact >gjlist-owner >Delivered-mailing list gjlist >Precedence: bulk >List-Un: <gjlist> > >Hello: > >I'm a bit perplexed by the refusal of some members to accept "failure" >here. In my experience, failure is normal in these tests, and the vast >majority of participants fail, including me, I hasten to add. I agree that >emigration to the West is the path to success so it can be linked to 10th >house factors, etc, etc. But that is so much rationalization, isn't it? >Emigration is a real-life practical question. My point here is that if you >had seen this woman as client *before* Dec 1974, none would have predicted >emigration as something upcoming. Obviously, in real life, she might have >been considering it for a year or more, so she might have asked about it, >but I wonder how many astrologers would have seen it and moreover got the >timing right on it. I think many more astrologers would have predicted >"yes, you will emigrate" (a 50-50 prediction) if she had asked about it >several years before, but how many would have got the year or the month >right? Not too many, I think. > >I just don't see the point in pretending that you're not really wrong, or >it's not an important enough question or whatever. The point is to accept >the facts as they are and try to learn how it could have been predicted. >Being in a state of denial doesn't make us better astrologers. It makes us >complacent and mentally flabby. > >This is why blind tests are so informative. They strip away all the >high-sounding theories and return us all to state of equality before the >facts. Sure, there are multiple realities to every event. If someone had >suggested that the native would experience a great period of excitement or >confusion, then that would have been correct too, although no mention of >emigration would have been made. > >Vedic astrology is supposed to be superior to all other astrologies because >of its predictive specificity. Too often, much of this alleged superiority >is expressed in hindsight only, based on past events where the facts are >fitted to conform with the theory. As I think we all know, this is too >easy to do and doesn't help us figure out which techniques work best. In >my opinion, the only way we are going to interpret, streamline, and clarify >astrological techniques is through correct prediction, or as in this case, >blind testing. > >just searching for truth here, > >Chris > > >At 07:39 AM 6/12/01 +0200, you wrote: > >Christopher Kevill : > > > > > >1. Practically all the factors you mention for emigration are present in >my > >chart too. I have to study it deeper. > > > >2. Basically I see a prolem with the quiz: emigration, marriage or >whatever else > >is an inherent feature of a chart and to pick the right event for a given >date > >is naturally difficult. So if we all missed it, I don´t see that as a > >"failure". > > > >3. The main point is this: only Inder Jit and I saw a "positive" >development, a > >success in something the lady was striving for. For most people in the > >non-western world getting to America (US or Canada) is a GREAT thing: it >is a > >struggle to get the permit. A new hope in life. > > > >Although I misread the LSRs, you will find they reflect this very well. I >said, > >"sudden success, with stress and anxiety before, stress with organizing >after > >that". Exactly what happens when you emigrate. I know from personal >experience: > >the dreadful period of waiting to get an entry visa, the elation of >getting it > >at last, emotional and practical problems of leaving forever, the hopes >of a > >great future, the problems in the new country etc. > > > >So I think Inder Jit and I did not do too badly. > > > >The point is this: we saw good things happening, but the majority was in >favour > >of disaster, even death! > > > >So i am happy the LSRs are vindicated at least as to positive and >negative > >periods. > > > >regards > >Mani > > > >PS: okay a second quiz can be sent out. But I may not have time for it! > > > > > > > > > > > >gjlist- > > > > > > > >Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > >gjlist- > > > >Your use of is subject to > > _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2001 Report Share Posted June 13, 2001 Dear Marcia, Answer will be too long to elaborate. In Short, Just to understand , vishmotary mahdasa change points generally come with change and specially when the nature of planet is also of opposite nature , circumstances , thinking , understanding all change. In the quoted chart Rahu was ending and Jupiter was going to start after a short period. And both are of opposite nature. In the quoted chart , Jupiter is the best star , placed in the star of sun. Rahu also represents Jupiter being in the sign of Jupiter, Rahu also represents Moon and Mercury .Rahu put in operation 5th, 7th, 11th house. So in Rahu mahadasa native was not clear that which way to move because Rahu has potential to give marriage ,education , and gain of residence. Here in this chart Mars and mercury does not represent foreign journey , but gain of residence by movement and displacement and may be for settling with the already settled relatives , brother or sister , to which mars and mercury are significators to which in modern language we call emigration. But Jupiter has given a pattern of life , being aspected by Venus , separated by axis from venues(only this separation define life in a land for which one is to cross Sea), Rahu period is , period of emotions , whereas Jupiter is for self rise , through the rise of another , here another may be husband. Regards, Inder Jit Sahni - Marcia gjlist Thursday, June 14, 2001 2:01 AM Re: [gjlist] GJ List Quiz #1 -- Answer Dear Inder, can you please elaborate on this statement that you made below? >> At the verge of end of Rahu Mahadasa means also change in life style. << namaste marcia gjlist- Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2001 Report Share Posted June 14, 2001 Liliana Sucur Perisic wrote: > Dear Chris, > > For instance I find the information that the event took place IN Manila > misleading, because the event was MOVING FROM Manila to Canada. Ofcourse the > journey STARTED in Manila, but when you say that the event took place IN > Manila ONE THINKS ONLY OF THINGS WHICH CAN HAPPEN IN ONE PLACE FORM THE > BEGINNING UNTILL THE END. Dear Liliana and others, CHRIS DID NOT MISLEAD! He said: "residence on birthday prior to event: Manila", which is to be taken literally, but in fact even sort of suggests a relocation! So I asked him where she lived permanently till date of occurrence and he said Manila. This too is legitimate for western type of return maps. Emigration is an uncertain period. Only the birtplace and last residence help, until the person has lived in the new place for a period. return maps cast for a place in transit are not very effective. regards Mani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2001 Report Share Posted June 14, 2001 Dear Mani. *laughs* I'm only human, no need to pounce in it. All your considerations are understood, but Chris wanted an explanation. I allready gave the reason for my misjudgement, take it or leave it. Best wishes, Visit. - <subra <gjlist> Thursday, June 14, 2001 10:45 AM Re: [gjlist] GJ List Quiz #1 -- Answer > Visti Larsen wrote > > > > I think i was abit colored by Sanny's short analysis, and wanted to prove > > that the mother didn't die, yet my mistake was not considering Mercury in > > 4th. > > > Dear Visti and others, > > 1. I agree that we get influenced by others´analyses. > > 2. Why did you neglect Mercury in 4th? Mars is also in the 4th. > > The whole point of the quiz is to test one´s intuition, NOT KNOWLEDGE! To give > excuses for having failed is not relevant. We are trying to get to a situation > when we can predict with certainty. > > There are two things about learning: one is "panditya", having learned all that > has been said -in MEMORY! The other is "viveka" the intuition, the ability to > relate the the learnt information to the times, situations etc. The astrologer > who relies only on rules is a poor astrologer. He who relies on intuition is a > better astrologer. Since every house, planet etc are karakas for so many > different things, it is only intuition that helps in deciding which aspect > prevsails at at a certain time. > > So it is not a question of being able to quote the texts, but being able to > apply them to a particular case. Being wise after the event IS NOT JYOTHISH! I > gave an example of palmists who predicted right. > > All that happened - and that is what I miss from jyothishis. Have you checked > your tools? Is your ayanamsa correct? should the moon be geocentric or > parallaxed? should the cycle be 365 or 360 days? > > Many queries are posted on the list. Many answers follow. But there is NO > FEEDBACK! Most often there CANNOT be. All of you get into vargas and dasas, > discuss and agree often. But the ayanamsas and above mentioned factors you all > use are different! So the "agreeing" makes no real sense. Then again, all of > you agreeing is still no proof: if you all say, "the native will not get > married, OR, he will get married in 2005", we never know if this really happens. > > At present the list is only a club for airing one´s own views. Also it helps to > teach rules or clarify them. That is good, but is not enough. > > Research was tough in the old days when everything was calculated by hand. Today > with the computer and programmes like GL it is so much easier. Why don´t 10 of > you very well-versed people sacrifice say 4 days in a year to make a joint > effort to clear up all the basic uncertainties? > > regards > Mani > > > > > > > > > > > > gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2001 Report Share Posted June 14, 2001 dear inder thanks for taking the time to answer this. take care marcia At 09:27 AM 6/14/01 +0530, you wrote: >Dear Marcia, >Answer will be too long to elaborate. >In Short, >Just to understand , vishmotary mahdasa change points generally come with >change and specially when the nature of planet is also of opposite nature >, circumstances , thinking , understanding all change. >In the quoted chart Rahu was ending and Jupiter was going to start after a >short period. And both are of opposite nature. >In the quoted chart , Jupiter is the best star , placed in the star of sun. >Rahu also represents Jupiter being in the sign of Jupiter, Rahu also >represents Moon and Mercury .Rahu put in operation 5th, 7th, 11th house. >So in Rahu mahadasa native was not clear that which way to move because >Rahu has potential to give marriage ,education , and gain of residence. >Here in this chart Mars and mercury does not represent foreign journey , >but gain of residence by movement and displacement and may be for settling >with the already settled relatives , brother or sister , to which mars and >mercury are significators to which in modern language we call emigration. >But Jupiter has given a pattern of life , being aspected by Venus , >separated by axis from venues(only this separation define life in a land >for which one is to cross Sea), Rahu period is , period of emotions , >whereas Jupiter is for self rise , through the rise of another , here >another may be husband. > >Regards, >Inder Jit Sahni > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2001 Report Share Posted June 29, 2001 In a message dated 6/12/2001 12:15:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wenvas writes: > This is why blind tests are so informative. They strip away all the > high-sounding theories and return us all to state of equality before the > facts. Sure, there are multiple realities to every event. If someone had > suggested that the native would experience a great period of excitement or > confusion, then that would have been correct too, although no mention of > emigration would have been made. > > Had a reading recently where I was told that in 2006 I would either move to a foreign country (emigrate, right?) or go for an extended visit, to someplace like India. I think it had something to do with the Lagna/12th lord in 9th conj 4th/9th lord; not sure which dasa was used (I believe more than one). I can't at this point see moving --maybe a short visit say if one of my children were doing something in another country. By 2006 the youngest would be 18 and I can certainly see chaperoning a class trip or something along those lines. He (the astrologer) said things would get better in June with Jupiter in Gemini, and they did. I couldn't see this happening (emotionally) at that time. But he was right. I felt that something would happen at any minute re: the state of my marriage, and he said he didn't see that until late 2002-2003. He seemed pretty confident to predict in the near and slightly distant future, and he nailed the present to a very surprising degree, even to things I hadn't thought of in that way (so I couldn't be giving subconscious clues). I do think a big part of successful prediction has to do with the "psychic" (for want of a better word)--that is, an aspect or configuation could have multiple meanings and when the intuition is highly developed it will give you your "hits". You know how sometimes something will seem to jump out at you from a chart and you just "know"? Too bad I can't make that happen all the time. Namaste, Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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