Guest guest Posted May 21, 2001 Report Share Posted May 21, 2001 Eight years of nearly pure pain. Almost died. Sure, I agree, tis fate. Clear to me, looking at the Indian's way of reading the planets. Tis clear by their clear way. Sure, you see 4th lord so slammed. It's Moon in Aquarii. Sure, I understand, but of all astrologers ONLY drew lawrence ever said the simple line "I think you have stuff to work out about your mother". I would say "Your family of origin and roots are committing suicide!!" That would be my first impression. It's true. The Irish are killing themselves, and my mother and father lived in pain lifelong. I'm now willing to remember, see it, face it, and face why MY PARENTS were that way, and so many things. I think IRA should now mean "Irish Recovery Awareness", and I think I'll try to get it rolling. All the Kings horses and all the kings men, nay, not them, rather finally it took another suffering irishman to tell me what none else had cared to find out clearly somehow Hey patty, got GLA oil? ya MAY need it lad or las, just be honest, are ya dark and always in pain? ---------------- I feel very differently now about farming out our labor to India, like software, or China, or Mexico. No wonder rich men have no problem with free trade. No wonder the Vedas say "Do not cross the oceans, big rivers and mountains". I now understand the effects of exploitation. Crouching Tiger is done resting, and rises, begins to look around. 14 days. Tis proven. No SRI's, no pharmacuetical CEO profiting off ME. Noone owns me. Nobody cures me. Need nothing, no addictions. Not sick, not poor, not needy, not a victim. I can see the writing on the wall, don't think I need anything at all. Walking free. IRA. Irish Recovery Awareness It's simple. It's natural. It's green. It has no guns. It has love, oil, organic whole usually raw food, it works, you already own it, it's your birthright. It's all around you, it's more in the grass on your lawn than at your local supermarket usually. IRA don't do it again never affirm a race is "inferior", for you starve innocent children by doing so, so do not hire them and take the profit, for you are then a british man in India or Ireland in the past, don't do this again, just remember, you've already been there and done that, how long will you not listen? I have friends now doing this foreign exploitive business slavery. I do not know why I always avoided it, now I know. If the shoe fits, wear it, and if it's covered with this blood and pain, throw that shoe and gait asunder... Nike Just do it time to empower, if you can't, at least do not disempower Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2001 Report Share Posted May 21, 2001 goravani wrote: > never affirm a race is "inferior", for you starve innocent children by doing > so, so do not hire them and take the profit, for you are then a british man > in India or Ireland in the past, don't do this again, just remember, you've > already been there and done that, how long will you not listen? > Dear Raghu, You are throwing out words like the IRA throw bombs - indiscriminately. 1. Hiring children: During my last visit to India - in 1997 - I had some time to observe and see this problem. Also had to do with groups here in germany who try to help indian children. It is a vicious circle, The kids are hired for a pittance. The parents don´t send the kids to schools, but force them to work for that pittance. Because without that pittance they cannot survive! And there are not enough schools anyway. Let´s say the US exploiter pays them 5 cents an hour, it is about 2 dollars for the kid. BUT the local millionaires try to pay even less! There is a boom in the middle class, the rich get richer anyhow. But the lowest group is losing out badly. Populationwise this losing section is perhaps the majority, if one discounts the cities. So the evil of exploitation has become a necessity. If you say you´ll not wear sealskin so as to save the seals, it is fine. The seal hunters will find some way of survival. But by stopping the farming out of labour you will suddenly cut off a sustenance for which the victims have no substitute! 2. British in India is not a very good example of exploitation and outrage. They did not conquer the country, but sort of "bought" it. The good they did - after the break-up of the super empire of the Moguls - far exceeded the evil. They discriminated generally, but still honoured the outstanding. But for them you´d probably have never heard of Krishna or jyothish!...... There were nasty incidents. The first was the Indian mutiny: stupidity a stubbornness, like that of Custer. The actual real violence was started by the Indians, not the British, who naturally retaliated with violence. Much later one or two incidents like Jallianwalabagh. But such things happen in every country, when there is a revolt. Those massacres were nothing compared to what happened in the French or Russian revolution. The british kept their finances separate, paid india a compensation for losses in the war. It was Macaulay who pleaded in the British parliament for home rule for the Indians, the CCongress party that won independence under Gandhi´s leadership was founded by an Englishman! Isolated instances of injustice cannot be taken as the total picture. In contrast to Spain - and Germany - The british, French, the Portuguese and Dutch, more or less in that order, treated their colonies well, respected and often promoted local religion and culture. They traded cleverly, but did not rob! During my first visit to England in 1955 I had certain apprehensions: how would the British treat me? It was only 7 years since India had become independent. They treated me as one of them! I thought I´d see "streets of gold", gold robbed from India. No, I saw a very modest but proud people, living in very simple quarters. In a london pub I fell into a conversation with a chap who had some knowledge of history: he said that the British public was happy that India had gained independence. "I understand you: I too don´t want the Danes or French ruling over us. We british people believe in our right to rule over ourselves, and that is why the Magna Carta was signed!" In cotrast to this the most inhuman behaviour of the Moslems - The Pakistanis - and the equally inhuman retaliation, is the most terrible chapter in india´s history. No british soldier ever thought of thrusting the meat of a roasted baby into the mouths of its parents, or raping their children to death in front of their eyes - things that happened amongst Indians of different "faiths". In africa I was suddenly faced with another chapter of history: the blacks who were caught and taken to America. The Yanks came and waited on the coast. It was the people of one african village who fell upon their neighbous, bound them and sold them to the yanks! - or sold them as slaves to the Arabs. Brother sold brother and sister into slavery!!! The enemy is not the foreigner, but your own brother!.... and Yourself! What is the Irish problem? The UK does not depend on Ireland. There is no problem about giving Northern Ireland autonomy - or even permitting it to unite with Eire. The problem is that there are two groups of people - Catholics and Protestants. The division is no longer religious, but economical. They have become guilds, cagey of each other. The british govt. is in a nasty position: if they withdrew and the Catholics massacred the protestants, it would be "an act of irresponsibility": they can withdraw only if the groups are ready to live in peace. All parties are stymied, no one dares to bury the axe. How about shipping primrose oil to Belfast? Dear Raghu, I am getting worried about your sanity: your letter about who should rule and who not! Today it is almost impossible to find people without addictions. And the Kshatriyas of today do not fight by the rules of Dharma, but are trained ruthless killers and assassins. Even in the days of dharma Sisupala went killing infants! No, my friend, caste does not differentiate us. Only love. How much we feel and give. Each of us is Arjuna. Our conscience is Krishna. We need Arjunas who listen to their conscience! Om shanthi, shanthi, shanthihi! Love Mani > I have friends now doing this foreign exploitive business slavery. I do not > know why I always avoided it, now I know. > > If the shoe fits, wear it, and if it's covered with this blood and pain, > throw that shoe and gait asunder... > > Nike > > Just do it > > time to empower, if you can't, at least do not disempower > > > > > gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2001 Report Share Posted May 21, 2001 gjlist, subra@t... wrote: And the Kshatriyas of today do not fight by the rules of Dharma, > but are trained ruthless killers and assassins. Even in the days of dharma > Sisupala went killing infants! No, my friend, caste does not differentiate us. > Only love. How much we feel and give. Each of us is Arjuna. Our conscience is > Krishna. We need Arjunas who listen to their conscience! > > > > > time to empower, if you can't, at least do not disempower Om Amrtesvaryai Namah!! Namaste dear ones!! thank you Mani for your exposition on the British...you are perhaps one of the most pro-British folks from Bharat that i have ever read!! but on the other hand, my experience of the British..thru their colonies and my study of history...it seems that you do have a point...in that perhaps they were one of the least horrible in their colonial policies...still there was very strong "casteism" in Britain, and even out here in the colonies...in "British Columbia" if you were anything but British not too long ago...even as recent as the last world war...you were a 2nd class citizen...how do i know this? my family is Norwegian...both sides...my mother's folks came to BC in 1918...and my dad emigrated with his family in 1927 at the age of 14...what they discovered was that they were nobody....as all immigrants discovered, including Scots and Irish...only in this country, the Scots and Irish were just below the English...and the rest of us below that...and of course the First Peoples and the Chinese and other Oriental races, as well as folks from India and Pakistan were even farther down on the list...they couldn't even vote or be real citizens until after the last world war...massive discrimination... Perhaps you have a good relationship with the English because you are one of the "upper" classes...Brahmin i seem to remember....and Educated, as well as majorly Westernized!! Perhaps you don't even have much of an Indian accent!...Not that i'm trying to put you down for it my brother...it's just that you may not represent the average Indian when it comes to relating to the British...as well you worked in a British shipping firm if i remember rightly...so you got to know them well...in a working situation... i actually think the truth lies somewhere between what you say and what Dasji says...the Irish have felt exploited by England since AD 1200 or so, when they were invaded and conquered...and were treated like creatures of the Gutter, unless they converted to protestantism and became English Irish types...Dasji's Irish pain is REAL...why do you think so many Irish came to America?????it wasn't because it was wonderful in the home country as ruled by Britain... i have also read in Hinduism today, that those same British that you admire, spent a lot of their time trying to stamp out and assimilate the Indians into the British mould of "culture"....thus the British style schools and universities, and the governmental structure...the same happened here with the attempted "genocide" of the native peoples...unlike the Americans, the British in Canada had a more "civilised" method...they put all the children in residential schools run by the various churches, and beat the children for talking in their own language...forced a new language, clothes, food, and culture upon them along with the most horrendous physical and sexual abuse...this tragedy is still affecting many of the adult Natives in our country...they were scarred for life by this assimilation culture...even they had to study in those prison schools, at least in BC, a book called "The Vanishing Race" and guess who it was about? Now there are so many lawsuits against the various churches in Canada that most of them are faced with literal bankruptcy for their terrible treatments of the children in the past...right up until the 50's and 60's...the Canadian Govt has apologised to the First Peoples, but understandably the people want a little more than a piece of paper and an eagle feather...they want compensation for their ruined lives!!!! As well, Hinduism today blames the British for the destruction of the major irrigation projects that ran thru South India...and turned the place from an agricultural paradise into a desert in many places by just building their roads and train tracks thru and filling up the irrigation canals...Vast waterworks were rendered useless by this simple tactic....as well, as far as i understand the British bled India DRY of all its wealth, and only when India became more of a liability than an asset were they willing to let Her go.... the main reason the British commonwealth came into being instead of the British Empire...was that the British couldn't afford to pay for the Second World War unless they mortgaged off their colonies to the hilt....it was simply TOO expensive to replace all those sunken ships and blown up factories at the current running American prices.... the Americans in this case were playing both ends against the middle...they supplied both the British AND the Germans with war materiel...and the British went so far into debt to pay that they had to let their colonies go...they couldn't AFFORD them any more...they had already extracted everything easily extractable...and it was too tough to make a living off these colonies any more...so freedom. still i see what you are saying re the child labourers....if they don't get our work even though cheap, they'll starve...same arguments are used to support the slave labour camps in China!!!this doesn't excuse the capitalists from their greed, or their responsibilities to their brothers and sisters. As Amma has said many times...the rich people are to blame for the misery of the poor folks...they have STOLEN all the money!!!so if they don't help the poorer folks, they are GUILTY of abusing them!! this is what Dasji is getting at...that when the capitalists are running the world, and bottom line economics is the underpinning for everything, then the weaker folks only get weaker and poorer... Thus Dasji is advocating rule by the WORTHY ...that doesn't give a blanket permission to all the hired thugs and assassins to take charge!!!! would you call Arjuna a hired thug or assassin? or how about Yudhisthira??? Dharma Raja he was called...the King of Dharma...he was known NEVER to lie!! NEVER!!! what politicians can today claim such????????? Thus Dasji is not calling for the return of the Nazi Third Reich worldwide, but rather enlightened rule by the REAL KSHATRIYAS...rather than the VAISYAS who can ONLY think of their bellies!!! i don't see that it is at all an issue of Dasji's sanity!! it is merely a way of looking at the world....a way which many of the baby-boomer types came to in the 60's and 70's, but which many later "forgot" as it didn't work so well in the job marketplace....and it is really a traditional Hindu view of the world...so to call his sanity into question over this, my brother is just going a bit far!!! i also do not agree that Dasji is throwing words and ideas out indiscriminately....he does "rave" but in all that rave there is usually a Thread of intent, of pointing to where he is intending to take his readers...it's an irish colourful way of doing it, rather like the beautiful carvings, and music...but under all that exquisite floral decoration there is a thread (sutra!) of meaning, which can be seen...so if you must call Dasji "mad" in this sense, i'm afraid you may have to call many folks of his and my generation the same...myself included...although i have NO trouble with that label, unless it means i've got to go to some "hospital" to take forced medication therapies... Dasji does see things a little more "black and white" than you or i might...it is possibly a little to do with that Vaishnava training in dualism...but i can see where he's going...and in this case i'd have to support his rave a little more than yours!!...although i did find yours very interesting too...and loved the other side of the picture...and will agree that you too have many good and powerful points... i think you're BOTH right...there you are!! but let's not publicly bandy words like "sanity" about in questioning our friends' arguments...please? in the Mother's Love, and in Her Service, as ever, YOur own self, visvanathan Om Amrtesvaryai Namah!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 22, 2001 Report Share Posted May 22, 2001 Dear Kasi-V. and Das, > i don't see that it is at all an issue of Dasji's sanity!! I DID NOT MEAN THAT IN A SERIOUS SENSE AT ALL; WAS ONLY SAYING; "HEY, YOU MUST BE CRAZY TO HOPE THAT THIS UTOPIAN RULE BY GOOD PEOPLE IS GONNA COME TRUE!" Of course I agree with what Raghu says about exploitation etc. I only pointed out to the stupid situation that is attached to hiring cheap labour. The real blame goes to the tight-fisted Indian millionaires who refuse to help their own people. As to the Brits: I did not wash them white. I did not work for the Brits, but had Brits as colleagues in the Indian company I worked for. My personal contact in England was as a visitor, also passed my exams there. The examiners were very nice, gave me top marks, one even recommended me to write textbooks. So I do like the Brits..... But not everything they did in India. There were certainly black chapters. There is another angle to this. The British government ruled only about 50% of India directly, and that for only about 70 years. The rest of the country was in the hands of rajas. The major period of Brit rule was under the India Company. THIS WAS VAYSYA RULE, as Das says, and based on exploitation. Their aim was to get money, did not administer at all, did not interfere in the affairs of the people at all! They usually wore Indian clothing, read Indian books, sat with the Indian merchants, but never tried to govern. The British govt cannot be really blamed for this neglect. At the time of independence the conditions in the directly ruled parts was definitely better than in the raja ruled states. We must see the world as it was at that time. If you read Dickens etc. the conditions in Britain were not great either, the laws were oppressive, the poor exploited, even voting in our sense did not exist. As to the destruction of culture, it was happening anyhow. Some Moslem rulers were liberal, others fanatically against Hindu culture. They forced people to learn urdu. The Brits did not kill the local languages or customs, only did nothing to encourage them. But these languages have still flourished, not practically died out like Gaelic. The introduction of English was to make a uniform administration possible - and is a great blessing for India, with its 14 odd languages. Building of roads etc. which had negative effects was not a deliberate attempt to ruin the country: meant actually to promote prosperity! The revenue was mainly agricultural and to destroy agricultural land was not in the interest of the Brits at all. That sort of well-meant but foolish destruction has taken place all over the world - and since millennia. It was the canals that Hammurabbi (or Sargon) built which turned Mesopotamia into a desert! The CRIME of the Brits was in suppressing the development of industries in India to protect their own. Yes, there is a caste system in Britain: the English are very condescending when it comes to Scots, Welsh or Irish and other Europeans too! But this is nowhere near German arrogance! So I definitely say AMEN to what Raghu said! The problem with all nations is that the Vaysays dictate and no gevernment, even if it consisted of honest and good people, can survive without vaisya support. I too am crazy and hope that vaisyas will become honest, good prople!!! regards Mani PS: Attached file is the speech of a Brit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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