CD: Puzzle!

[Guest guest]

Dear Experts,

 

Here is poser sent to me by a friend. I am unable to deal with this and present

it to you for study and help: it is a case of twins! I have some vague ideas,

but won´t prejudice you with them.

 

regards

Mani

 

Here the letter:

 

 

>

> A friend of mine could not conceive for a very long

> time and finally they decided to go in for the in

> vitro fertilization. The first time the process didn't

> go well and so they had to repeat that again. The

> second time, she got lucky and got pregnant with two

> boys (fraternal twins and not identical twins).

> Unfortunately, 2 months before her due date, she had

> to deliver them prematurely. Of the two boys, the

> eldest one was sick right from the time she delivered

> in March and he was on life support for two months and

> eventually they had to take him off life support last

> Friday and he passed away. This child also had

> chromosomal abnormality as well.

>

> The worrying fact is that the two kids were born just

> in two minute intervals. I looked at the charts and

> since I am not an expert cannot make out the

> difference between the charts. The planetary positions

> and the ascendents are the same EXCEPT the degrees

> change a little bit, but it seems to have a marked

> difference in the lives of the children. Could it be

> possible to take a look at these charts and offer your

> opinion or advices regarding the life of the second

> child.

>

> The charts of the boys:

> Born on March 6th, 2001

> in Naperville, IL

> at 6:22 and 6:24 a.m.

> I think the DST was on then.

 

NO, DST was not on! (- Mani).

[Guest guest]

Dear Mani,

 

On the assumption that these times are absolutely correct I put forward my

observations. What needs to be focused on is the (finer) dasa periods

running at time of birth and death; the effect of transits, and the fate of

younger/elder siblings as seen from Rashi and Drekkana.

 

It's traditional practice to consider the placement of dasa lords in

divisional charts in order to determine the influence (those lords) will

have on specific areas of life. So in this case both Rashi and Drekkana need

to be considered.

 

In Rashi we see that the elder twin was born in SA-ME-SA-RA. Saturn is lord

of Lagna and 12th house, and is dispositor of both Sun and 8th lord Mercury

(bhukti lord). Mercury is in 12th house of loss (including loss of life) in

both Rashi and Drekkana. Saturn is in 4th in Rashi (endings, close of life,

graveside, etc) and is in the 8th house of death in Drekkana. In Drekkana

Sun (SELF) is afflicted by sookshmantar lord Rahu and aspected by 3rd lord

Mars (in both Rashi and Drekkana)...3rd shows "cause" of death.

 

The younger twin was running SA-ME-SA-JU at time of birth. For this twin

sookshmantar lord Jupiter is both lord of house of elder sibling and karaka

for elder sibling. In Drekkana Jupiter (elder sibling) has gone to 8th house

of death.

 

At time of death malefic dasa lords were transiting 11th house of elder

sibling and 4th house (occupied by Jupiter).

 

These are the subtle differences I see manifesting in these charts, even

though the charts themselves are identical. It's just a very brief surface

look and I haven't really gone into anything deeply...I'll leave that to

others with more time and energy :-)

 

Regards

Wendy

 

MANI WROTE:

===========

Dear Experts,

 

Here is poser sent to me by a friend. I am unable to deal with this and

present

it to you for study and help: it is a case of twins! I have some vague

ideas,

but won´t prejudice you with them.

 

regards

Mani

 

Here the letter:

 

 

>

> A friend of mine could not conceive for a very long

> time and finally they decided to go in for the in

> vitro fertilization. The first time the process didn't

> go well and so they had to repeat that again. The

> second time, she got lucky and got pregnant with two

> boys (fraternal twins and not identical twins).

> Unfortunately, 2 months before her due date, she had

> to deliver them prematurely. Of the two boys, the

> eldest one was sick right from the time she delivered

> in March and he was on life support for two months and

> eventually they had to take him off life support last

> Friday and he passed away. This child also had

> chromosomal abnormality as well.

>

> The worrying fact is that the two kids were born just

> in two minute intervals. I looked at the charts and

> since I am not an expert cannot make out the

> difference between the charts. The planetary positions

> and the ascendents are the same EXCEPT the degrees

> change a little bit, but it seems to have a marked

> difference in the lives of the children. Could it be

> possible to take a look at these charts and offer your

> opinion or advices regarding the life of the second

> child.

>

> The charts of the boys:

> Born on March 6th, 2001

> in Naperville, IL

> at 6:22 and 6:24 a.m.

> I think the DST was on then.

 

NO, DST was not on! (- Mani).

[Guest guest]

Wendy Vasicek wrote:

> Dear Mani,

>

>

> It's traditional practice to consider the placement of dasa lords in

> divisional charts in order to determine the influence (those lords) will

> have on specific areas of life. So in this case both Rashi and Drekkana need

> to be considered.

>

> In Rashi we see that the elder twin was born in SA-ME-SA-RA. Saturn is lord

> of Lagna and 12th house, and is dispositor of both Sun and 8th lord Mercury

> (bhukti lord). Mercury is in 12th house of loss (including loss of life) in

> both Rashi and Drekkana. Saturn is in 4th in Rashi (endings, close of life,

> graveside, etc) and is in the 8th house of death in Drekkana. In Drekkana

> Sun (SELF) is afflicted by sookshmantar lord Rahu and aspected by 3rd lord

> Mars (in both Rashi and Drekkana)...3rd shows "cause" of death.

>

> The younger twin was running SA-ME-SA-JU at time of birth. For this twin

> sookshmantar lord Jupiter is both lord of house of elder sibling and karaka

> for elder sibling. In Drekkana Jupiter (elder sibling) has gone to 8th house

> of death.

 

Dear Wendy,

 

I appreciate the explanations but don´t feel too happy. The logic is IMHO a bit

Irish, as they say in England: you are reading the death of the elder twin from

the younger. I think each chart must be read on its own for death.

 

Since both rasi charts are very similar, I agree that we must look for subtle

differences. The drekkana is also identical. Both have the same afflictions: the

previous "retort babies" apparently "died". Both have mars in the 6th in

drekkana, so the 2nd twin is also struggling for life, his successor too may

have a problem. ... But I´d like to see a good explanation of the death of the

elder twin from his chart alone!

 

As a very amateur jyothishi, may I offer the following comments?

 

 

> At time of death malefic dasa lords were transiting 11th house of elder

> sibling and 4th house (occupied by Jupiter).

 

The transit of the malefics to the 11th house of the ELDER sibling does not make

sense: the elder brother of the elder twin might have suffered. But of course

this transit applies to the younger as well, and suits - but based on the

younger´s chart!

 

I am very glad to see that you are using the dasas to the 3rd and 4th level,

which most don´t! Predicting things for Venus/Saturn is just "big deal!"

considering the length of the period!

 

Now the only difference is - by lahiri - in the 4th level. Twin ! has Rahu, Twin

2 has Jupiter. Saturn /mercury is applicable to both: mercury is the 8th lord,

saturn is 1st lord but also of 12th - the initial restriction in development,

doubly represented in the 3rd level. But Rahu is a neutral and exalted in a

trinal house! He should have protected, not killed!

 

Again, the second twin ends up with Jupiter: owner of 2nd and a maraka - he

could have been killed!

 

Now, I am a Fagan fan. So i did the charts with Fagan´s ayanamsa too. Results:

 

The first twin was born under SA/Me/Mo/Sun, the second under Sa/ME/ Mars/Rahu.

 

 

Taking only the rasi chart:

 

Twin 1 : The moon is lord of 6th (sickness) is strong in own house but has full

aspect of 8th lord from 12th. The sun as 7th lord is maraka, also as 2nd lord

from moon, aspects the 7th, is in 8th from moon. Death! There may be vipareetha

yogas, but that is a philosophical matter: like Ganga´s children, the twin might

have been born only to die, for death is not torture but release!

 

Twin 2: Mars is lord of 10th and in own house. Rahu is in a trine, exalted.

Rahu is in 8th from mars, but is not aspected by mercury. So life is

threatened, but the child will survive. Rahu is also a shadow of saturn, the

lagna lord as well of 12th. Restriction and incubation yes, but survival would

be indicated.

 

I do not know which varga(s) deal(s) with health and longevity. There are many

rules about balarishta, but with a 2-minute difference in TOB I´d say it is

useless to talk about them in this case.

 

As to remedies and advice to the mother: "Pray to God, begging for a healthy

child! And thank Him for having given you the opportunity to give a soul the

chance it needed to gather the experience it needed!"

 

Comments and corrections are welcome.

 

regards

Mani

[Guest guest]

Dear Mani,

in this case I will stress the degrees a bit like in Inders polio-twincase.

Rasi: Both boys have aquarius rising, the eldest with 21°29, the younger one

22°22.

First prenatal eclipse could have been jul 31 2000 on 14°25 gemini.

Pluto was stationary aug 20 2000 on 16°22 scorpio, this degree was taken by

mars at birth with 16°04. Please keep this degree in mind.

Ceres, (my Mrs Saturn) also hold 16°23 at birth.

Mercury had its last station before conception on 16°37 gemini, jul 17.

2000.

On jul 1. 2000 there also had been another eclipse on 16°29 gemini.

Several newmoons before birth occupied the degrees of 10.

Several fullmoons before birth occupiede the degrees of 25.

So long all is equal for the boys.

 

Navamsa: Now both boy have aries rising, the elder one 13°28`48, the younger

one 21°19`06.

Now differenciating can start:

rasi neptune has 13°53 capricorn, so beeing closer to eldest boy`s navamsa

Ac. His arabian part for the most dangerous year also is directly on 13°35

capricorn.

Navamsa pluto is on 13°06 capricorn.

Now remember the degrees of 16. Where are navamsa rahu and ketu: 16°24

pisces and virgo.

Navamsa uranus also is with ketu on 16°04 virgo in the 6th house of

sickness.

Saturn is on 15°54 capricorn.

One day before death neptune was stationary on 15°00 capricorn.

On may 11. 2001, the day of death, mars also was stationary on 5° 16

sagittarius, forming an exact square with his arababic part of sickness on

5°47 virgo in his rasi and also being within 150° to navamsa neptune in 5°00

taurus.

You will find more, but let me finish with navamsa here. Why only the eldest

boy had to suffer early death? Because only his AC was highly sensibilized,

while the AC of the younger brother was simply dropped out with his 21°19

degrees.

 

Triamsha: Miseries and troubles. Rising sign for both boys is gemini, boy 1

has 14°59 and boy 2 had 18° 43.

Here the prenatal eclipse of 14°25 gemini will play a big part,

sensibilizing only the eldest boy`s AC!

Triamsa sun now is also in gemini ie 18°02, occupying rahus rasi degree of

18°29! Though boy 2 holds this degree by lagna, we have no eclipse marking

the AC in his case. You will find other things, but let me stop here.

 

transits on may 11. 2001: Rahu and ketu: 14:59 gemini and sagittarius.

Neptune: 15°00 capricorn.

Venus: 15°15 pisces.

All these planets and nodes beeing within 1° to first boys Triamsa lagna.

Second boy is safe.

 

Conclusion: In twin cases one possibility for differenciating is carefully

to compare the degrees of varga charts with transit degrees, arabian parts,

eclipses, positions of newmoon and fullmoon and planetary stations. Normally

we can discover, that only one rising sign will be heavily afflicted.

 

Wendy tried another method and came to the same conclusion. Krishnamurty

system will also give the right result. So, many ways will lead to rome,

even in twincases.

 

Regards, Ilona

[Guest guest]

DEAR MANI,

Namaskaar,

1st child is represented by Mercury , who is sublord of Ascendant, As

mercury

is a planet of dual nature twin birth is also proved. Mercury though in 10th

in Rasi is in 11 in Cusp chart aspected by Moon and Jupiter. Mercury is in

the constellation of Mars ,lord of lagna placed in 8th as such it has

brought

in 11th 8th 1st house in contact giving short age due to muscles breathing

and temperature. As sun is in the 11th and the Ascendant is movable ,Saturn

, 10th and 11th lord placed in the constellation of Sun is a strongest

significator of Badhka place.

Another marka is Ketu, Moon and Venus , but Venus has been taken over by

ketu. Upto 28.5.2001 all dasa planets Mahadasa to sub were bad , hence the

incident.

2nd child is represented by Venus as sublord of Ascendant , it is in the

12th house and is in the star of mercury and sub of Mars.

1st period of death zone finished on 18th may.

He is safe till 14.7 2001 but in danger.

further sub's of rahu and Jupiter may give improvement. But again Saturn to

Ketu sub -sub dasa is not good for health. I have doubts about this 2nd

child too.

May God bless him with age , but ask his parents to go for Maha Mritu jai

Mantra reciting and Havana.

Regards ,

Inder Jit Sahni

 

 

 

_______

 

Get your free @ address at

[Guest guest]

Dear Inder Jit,

 

I think we're looking at two different charts here. According to my

calculations the twins have Aquarius rising with SU in Ascendant, ME in

12th, MA in 10th, etc...it seems you have Aries rising with ME in 10th, MA

in 8th, etc...

 

I'm wondering if I entered the correct birth data??

 

Regards

Wendy

 

YOU WROTE:

==========

DEAR MANI,

Namaskaar,

1st child is represented by Mercury , who is sublord of Ascendant, As

mercury

is a planet of dual nature twin birth is also proved. Mercury though in 10th

in Rasi is in 11 in Cusp chart aspected by Moon and Jupiter. Mercury is in

the constellation of Mars ,lord of lagna placed in 8th as such it has

brought

in 11th 8th 1st house in contact giving short age due to muscles breathing

and temperature. As sun is in the 11th and the Ascendant is movable ,Saturn

, 10th and 11th lord placed in the constellation of Sun is a strongest

significator of Badhka place.

Another marka is Ketu, Moon and Venus , but Venus has been taken over by

ketu. Upto 28.5.2001 all dasa planets Mahadasa to sub were bad , hence the

incident.

2nd child is represented by Venus as sublord of Ascendant , it is in the

12th house and is in the star of mercury and sub of Mars.

1st period of death zone finished on 18th may.

He is safe till 14.7 2001 but in danger.

further sub's of rahu and Jupiter may give improvement. But again Saturn to

Ketu sub -sub dasa is not good for health. I have doubts about this 2nd

child too.

May God bless him with age , but ask his parents to go for Maha Mritu jai

Mantra reciting and Havana.

Regards ,

Inder Jit Sahni

[Guest guest]

HELLO MANI,

I took the data as 6.22AM and 6.24 AM date 6.3.2001 Long 41n47 ,Latitude

88w09

difference from GMT -8.00.

Please correct me.

Inder Jit Sahni

 

 

_______

 

Get your free @ address at

[Guest guest]

-

Ravinder Grover <astrology

Inder Jit Sahni <isawhney_21

Sunday, May 20, 2001 9:07 PM

Fw: [gjlist] Re: CD: Puzzle!

 

 

> Dear Inder Jit ji,

>

> Namaste

>

> For the first child, I am getting 21deg 30 min 14 sec Aquarius as

Ascendant,

> and

> for the second child, 2 deg 22 min 30 sec Aquarius

>

> Therefore sublord of Asc is Jup for the first child and sublord of Asc is

> Sat for the 2nd child.

> I may be completely wrong as I am a beginer.

>

> My question is, if the parents of these twin brothers, would have shown

the

> chart to any astrolger immdeiately after birth, would the astrologer had

> predicted death of the elder child or not?

>

> I noticed whenever I try to analyse the chart after the even had taken

> place, it becomes easier to find the reason for the event. I am not sure

> whether it is same with anybody else.

>

> Regards

>

> Ravinder GRover

> -

> Inder Jit Sahni <isawhney_21

> <gjlist>

> Sunday, May 20, 2001 2:47 AM

> Re: [gjlist] Re: CD: Puzzle!

>

>

> > DEAR MANI,

> > Namaskaar,

> > 1st child is represented by Mercury , who is sublord of Ascendant, As

> > mercury

> > is a planet of dual nature twin birth is also proved. Mercury though in

> 10th

> > in Rasi is in 11 in Cusp chart aspected by Moon and Jupiter. Mercury is

in

> > the constellation of Mars ,lord of lagna placed in 8th as such it has

> > brought

> > in 11th 8th 1st house in contact giving short age due to muscles

breathing

> > and temperature. As sun is in the 11th and the Ascendant is movable

> ,Saturn

> > , 10th and 11th lord placed in the constellation of Sun is a strongest

> > significator of Badhka place.

> > Another marka is Ketu, Moon and Venus , but Venus has been taken over by

> > ketu. Upto 28.5.2001 all dasa planets Mahadasa to sub were bad , hence

the

> > incident.

> > 2nd child is represented by Venus as sublord of Ascendant , it is in the

> > 12th house and is in the star of mercury and sub of Mars.

> > 1st period of death zone finished on 18th may.

> > He is safe till 14.7 2001 but in danger.

> > further sub's of rahu and Jupiter may give improvement. But again Saturn

> to

> > Ketu sub -sub dasa is not good for health. I have doubts about this 2nd

> > child too.

> > May God bless him with age , but ask his parents to go for Maha Mritu

jai

> > Mantra reciting and Havana.

> > Regards ,

> > Inder Jit Sahni

> >

> >

> >

> > _______

> >

> > Get your free @ address at

> >

> >

> >

> > gjlist-

> >

> >

> >

> > Your use of is subject to

 

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

DEAR WENDY ,

You are correct, I wrongly calculated it with -8 hrs GMT instead of -6 Hrs.

With the Aquarius Ascendant 1st child is born with Jupiter as Sub Lord of

Ascendant .

Jupiter is in the constellation of Moon but is having exchange with Venus a

badhka lord. Incidentally only Ketu is in the star of Venus as such Ketu

Venus

and Jupiter due to exchange are giving the results of Badhka house in

reducing order of strength.

Mars in the star of Saturn is a strong signficator of ascendant. Another is

Saturn being lord of Ascendant and also being in the Constellation of Sun ,

an occupant of Ascendant, but Sun is lord of 7th house a marka place , so

Saturn will offer dual results , life and danger to life.

2nd child sublord is Saturn, as explained above Saturn is to offer mix

results , but as it is ascendant lord and sublord and sun is occupant of

Ascendant , So Saturn will 1st protect the life with the help of Mars

(opposing from 10th house) with surgery. But the period of this 2nd child

will be risky till he cross the sub period of Venus in Saturn Mahadasa. His

development will be less , problems related to stomach till May 2005.

Improvement in Sun ,Moon and Mars Antra.

I still recommend Mritujai Mantra or Ganesh Poojan, for the sake of health ,

though I hope life for the 2nd child.

With Regards ,

Inder Jit Sahni

 

 

 

_______

 

Get your free @ address at

[Guest guest]

Ravinder Grover wrote:

 

>

> > Dear Inder Jit ji,

> >

> > Namaste

> >

> > For the first child, I am getting 21deg 30 min 14 sec Aquarius as

> Ascendant,

> > and

> > for the second child, 2 deg 22 min 30 sec Aquarius

> >

> > Therefore sublord of Asc is Jup for the first child and sublord of Asc is

> > Sat for the 2nd child.

> > I may be completely wrong as I am a beginer.

> >

 

Dear Ravinder/Inder Jit,

 

Can you please explain sublords for me: give a list? the sources I have give

only one lord for each nakshatra, but you are apparently going by different

lords for each pada. Can you give more info?

 

 

 

> > My question is, if the parents of these twin brothers, would have shown

> the

> > chart to any astrolger immdeiately after birth, would the astrologer had

> > predicted death of the elder child or not?

> >

> > I noticed whenever I try to analyse the chart after the even had taken

> > place, it becomes easier to find the reason for the event. I am not sure

> > whether it is same with anybody else.

 

I endorse this statement fully! Any good answers?

 

regards

Mani

[Guest guest]

Dear Ravinder ,

You are correct , An astrologer will never predict death to a consultant , as a

matter of rule but will show that periods are of risk and the parents must

perform remedy measures.

Inder Jit Sahni