a slight correction to Mani's statements...re KV

[Guest guest]

Mani wrote:

 

...."I agree with all his philosphical views, but have a perpetual

debate

about it: He says That Ammachi has given him enlightenment.

 

Ammachi is a a spring of enlightenmeent, that flows for all - NOT

directed at any particular soul. If KV has drunk from this spring and

learnt, it is because he had the thirst! Ammachi´s teaching was

always there, but it was his readiness to understand that b rought him

the wisdom......"

 

Om Amrtesvaryai Namah!!!

 

Namaste dear Jyotishis, esp. Mani!

 

My dear brother Mani, i really MUST take issue with you over a couple

of slightly "wild" statements you made on this list....

 

First of all my brother, i have NEVER ONCE claimed that Amma gave me

any "enlightenment"...that would be a false claim...i am only one of

the Lovers....

"i want to TASTE sugar, not to become it!!" any one who makes such a

claim (of enlightenment) should be immediately suspect...because the

truly awakened ones do not need to self-promote....

 

Just as when a Rose opens, and that wonderful scent spreads all

around, and anyone may partake of this beauty, and all the bees come

swarming to feast on that nectar, so when the heart blooms, and opens,

into the beautiful Flower of Love that it really is, the Celestial

beauty of this Rose within one's heart can not help but attract the

true Lovers....Love attracts Love...Such is Ammachi, and such are the

"bees" who are attracted to Her Lotus Feet...We are not attracted to

the Guru, We are attracted to Love...and only later discover that this

Love has taken the form of the Guru...and answered our longing prayers

with Her hugs, and smiles, and Her Loving words of relationship....i

see Her more as my Mother Divine, than as Guru, despite Amma having

told me that She IS my Guru, and reminding me of it pointedly the next

year...

 

i have always felt the same way about Gurus as you do, my brother,

UNTIL i met Amma, and She told me She is my GURU, and i started to

learn MORE about what Guru means in my life...so i was "dragged"

reluctantly into the Guru shishya relationship....i merely came as one

of the bees, to partake of that Delicious Amrita of Mother's

Love...and once there learned otherwise...that this was not only

Mother but Guru...

 

so in a way i have come around in the opposite direction to Das, from

firmly belieiving that one doesn't need a Guru, as a Buddhist, and

lover of J. Krishnamurti's teachings...K. did not advocate Gurus as

you all know...so i was definitely not in favour of the idea,

especially after seeing so many of them "fall" from grace...into

addictions or sex scandals...this did not reassure me in the Guru

department, but rather stiffened my resolve to stay out of their

hands....Thus accepting my Mother, Amma, as Guru, took over a year

after i met Her...i was fine with Divine Mother as i said, but wanted

no Gurus...

 

in fact the day i ended up asking Amma if She is my Guru, i had NOT

INTENDED to ask ANY questions...i had NO paper, NO pen, and no desires

to know anything...but sitting in that middle darshan line, slowly

coming up towards Amma, suddenly there was an IMPERATIVE need to know

if Amma is my Guru...Actually i DIDN'T want to know...as i felt it

would complicate things...so when this overwhelming urge to ask Her

came over me (i didn't even question it!!)...i just asked surrounding

people for a pen and paper...and found myself in front of Her with

that question, it was a surprise...

 

As She heard Swamiji read out the question Amma burst into

laughter...and lovingly thru Her Chuckles managed to get out

"YES YES YES YES"....and grabbed me for my hug....i can only conclude

that Amma wanted me to ask Her for Her own reasons...to get it out in

the open perhaps, so that i might accept Her Loving disciplining more

easily!!!and thus She influenced my mind (not hard for Her!...as She

is the indweller within my own heart)...and due to Her agenda, i

asked...it was She who reminded me out of the blue the next year

also...by asking if what i was offering Her was "Guru Achara"...or the

traditional things we do for the Guru...to which i humbly said,

without even knowing what it meant "yes Amma"....i knew it was

important and i should agree...but not quite what it meant...i had a

vague idea it meant what it did but couldn't put it into words...until

a Keralan devotee kindly translated it for me...

 

So that's the story of a reluctant Guru Accepter...but now, some years

later, i am not at all reluctant about Amma as my Guru, as many of you

have seen in my Amma raves on this site...

 

 

i agree that Amma's teachings have always been there...i have seen

them presented by many of my favourite Saints, such as Sri Ramakrsna

and Paramahansa Yogananda....and i loved the way they presented those

teachings too...but i had NOT met either of them in this life, and was

mourning that...i remember after reading Great Swan, and discussing it

with a friend, that i was so sad that i couldn't meet Sri Ramakrsna in

this life, and listen to His wondrous singing, and hear His sweet

voice telling about His Beloved Divine Mother...it was an aching in my

heart....and my friend felt similarly he said...we really put that

energy out there....and ridiculously shortly after that Amma made

Herself known to us! (within a month or two!!)

 

As i have several times endeavoured to point out, being as this is a

Jyotish list, one comes to the Guru when it IS TIME...and one can see

in the charts, approximate times which would work...transits of

Jupiter or Sani or Venus, or..and corresponding dashas...So i COULDN'T

HAVE come to my Amma earlier, because the time was not rype....the

timing as evidenced by the Transit chart for the time and day of

meeting is very clear....there is no confusion...Guru is retrograde,

transitting my natal Sun...Venus is directly aspecting my Natal Venus

(Beloved Deity), Sani has just temporarily left Aquarius and Sade sati

into Pisces, where She is directly aspecting (on a very wide angle) my

natal 9th house with Sani and Mars therein...Also as i have said the

transits were interesting for AMMA too....

the period that i was running was JUPITER/VENUS/VENUS, corresponding

to Guru, and Beloved Deity, or if you wonder whether i am rakshasa or

not...then Venus could be Guru as well...

 

So this all happened after Mother had been doing lots of preliminary

work upon me, including divesting me of a dysfunctional

marriage......She couldn't have come earlier because the Transits and

such weren't right, and i probably wouldn't have responded to Her the

way i did...Mother knows the right time and that's when She calls Her

children to come and be with Her...

 

i insist that it is NOT i who found the Guru, but the Guru who found

me...i WASN'T looking for one so how could i find one????

But Mother knew the stars were right, and She created just the right

circumstances which drew Her beloved little child to Her lap, even

despite his own will!!! i was no desperate Guru seeker i can assure

you...i was in fact allergic to that whole idea of heirarchy, and

bowing down to other people...at heart with my Saturn atmakaraka and

lagnesha, i am an anarchist...not that i believe in disorder, but that

i believe everyone is quite capable of doing their jobs rightly out of

their own wills, and abilities...thus we don't need those authority

types...in short a real democrat i guess...self-referral is the thing

for me...But even "Sani" can recognise his Guru....When She arrives

and lets him know in no uncertain terms the state of affairs....

 

any wisdom i have absorbed is entirely Mother's will...She created

this child, and gave him the questing, Loving heart...and when the

time was right She revealed Herself to Herself, so to speak....Only

Love has done all this...what we love is not hard to focus on...what

we love becomes a continual "mantra" in the mind....so one can take NO

credit for absorbing anything...Love alone is doing all this...i

really am nothing but Mother's little child, and Her love is what

fills this heart with Bliss, encouraging the child to share it with

everyone...the best treats are shared with everyone after all!!!!

 

Mother says: "Come children...sweets!!!!" and we run laughing to Her

Sweet lap......knowing that She is the sweetest sweet of all!!

 

In That Divine Mother's Love,

and in Her Service,

this child

bows

humbly

to all

saluting

them

with

folded hands.

 

as ever

Your Own Self,

 

visvanathan

 

Om Amrtesvaryai Namah!

[Guest guest]

Dear Visvanathan, Mani, et al,

 

A Guru is a teacher, more precisely a teacher of divinity. Therefore anyone

who can impart this divine wisdom, divine love to another is a Guru. One of

my greatest Guru's was a dog...Yes! the four-footed kind...a wise Guru was

he! Not to get back to that (overexposed) chart again :-( been done to death

I know, but there's a lesson to be learnt here. PLEASE NOTE: lord of 6th

house of "Pets" exalted in 9th house of Guru :-)

 

My Guru is featured on Shirley MacLaine website:

http://www.shirleymaclaine.com/spirituality/spiritualpet.html

 

God Bless ALL our Gurus!

 

Regards

Wendy

 

Visvanathan Wrote:

==================

Om Amrtesvaryai Namah!!!

 

Namaste dear Jyotishis, esp. Mani!

 

My dear brother Mani, i really MUST take issue with you over a couple

of slightly "wild" statements you made on this list....

 

First of all my brother, i have NEVER ONCE claimed that Amma gave me

any "enlightenment"...that would be a false claim...i am only one of

the Lovers....

"i want to TASTE sugar, not to become it!!" any one who makes such a

claim (of enlightenment) should be immediately suspect...because the

truly awakened ones do not need to self-promote....

 

Just as when a Rose opens, and that wonderful scent spreads all

around, and anyone may partake of this beauty, and all the bees come

swarming to feast on that nectar, so when the heart blooms, and opens,

into the beautiful Flower of Love that it really is, the Celestial

beauty of this Rose within one's heart can not help but attract the

true Lovers....Love attracts Love...Such is Ammachi, and such are the

"bees" who are attracted to Her Lotus Feet...We are not attracted to

the Guru, We are attracted to Love...and only later discover that this

Love has taken the form of the Guru...and answered our longing prayers

with Her hugs, and smiles, and Her Loving words of relationship....i

see Her more as my Mother Divine, than as Guru, despite Amma having

told me that She IS my Guru, and reminding me of it pointedly the next

year...

 

i have always felt the same way about Gurus as you do, my brother,

UNTIL i met Amma, and She told me She is my GURU, and i started to

learn MORE about what Guru means in my life...so i was "dragged"

reluctantly into the Guru shishya relationship....i merely came as one

of the bees, to partake of that Delicious Amrita of Mother's

Love...and once there learned otherwise...that this was not only

Mother but Guru...

 

so in a way i have come around in the opposite direction to Das, from

firmly belieiving that one doesn't need a Guru, as a Buddhist, and

lover of J. Krishnamurti's teachings...K. did not advocate Gurus as

you all know...so i was definitely not in favour of the idea,

especially after seeing so many of them "fall" from grace...into

addictions or sex scandals...this did not reassure me in the Guru

department, but rather stiffened my resolve to stay out of their

hands....Thus accepting my Mother, Amma, as Guru, took over a year

after i met Her...i was fine with Divine Mother as i said, but wanted

no Gurus...

 

in fact the day i ended up asking Amma if She is my Guru, i had NOT

INTENDED to ask ANY questions...i had NO paper, NO pen, and no desires

to know anything...but sitting in that middle darshan line, slowly

coming up towards Amma, suddenly there was an IMPERATIVE need to know

if Amma is my Guru...Actually i DIDN'T want to know...as i felt it

would complicate things...so when this overwhelming urge to ask Her

came over me (i didn't even question it!!)...i just asked surrounding

people for a pen and paper...and found myself in front of Her with

that question, it was a surprise...

 

As She heard Swamiji read out the question Amma burst into

laughter...and lovingly thru Her Chuckles managed to get out

"YES YES YES YES"....and grabbed me for my hug....i can only conclude

that Amma wanted me to ask Her for Her own reasons...to get it out in

the open perhaps, so that i might accept Her Loving disciplining more

easily!!!and thus She influenced my mind (not hard for Her!...as She

is the indweller within my own heart)...and due to Her agenda, i

asked...it was She who reminded me out of the blue the next year

also...by asking if what i was offering Her was "Guru Achara"...or the

traditional things we do for the Guru...to which i humbly said,

without even knowing what it meant "yes Amma"....i knew it was

important and i should agree...but not quite what it meant...i had a

vague idea it meant what it did but couldn't put it into words...until

a Keralan devotee kindly translated it for me...

 

So that's the story of a reluctant Guru Accepter...but now, some years

later, i am not at all reluctant about Amma as my Guru, as many of you

have seen in my Amma raves on this site...

 

 

i agree that Amma's teachings have always been there...i have seen

them presented by many of my favourite Saints, such as Sri Ramakrsna

and Paramahansa Yogananda....and i loved the way they presented those

teachings too...but i had NOT met either of them in this life, and was

mourning that...i remember after reading Great Swan, and discussing it

with a friend, that i was so sad that i couldn't meet Sri Ramakrsna in

this life, and listen to His wondrous singing, and hear His sweet

voice telling about His Beloved Divine Mother...it was an aching in my

heart....and my friend felt similarly he said...we really put that

energy out there....and ridiculously shortly after that Amma made

Herself known to us! (within a month or two!!)

 

As i have several times endeavoured to point out, being as this is a

Jyotish list, one comes to the Guru when it IS TIME...and one can see

in the charts, approximate times which would work...transits of

Jupiter or Sani or Venus, or..and corresponding dashas...So i COULDN'T

HAVE come to my Amma earlier, because the time was not rype....the

timing as evidenced by the Transit chart for the time and day of

meeting is very clear....there is no confusion...Guru is retrograde,

transitting my natal Sun...Venus is directly aspecting my Natal Venus

(Beloved Deity), Sani has just temporarily left Aquarius and Sade sati

into Pisces, where She is directly aspecting (on a very wide angle) my

natal 9th house with Sani and Mars therein...Also as i have said the

transits were interesting for AMMA too....

the period that i was running was JUPITER/VENUS/VENUS, corresponding

to Guru, and Beloved Deity, or if you wonder whether i am rakshasa or

not...then Venus could be Guru as well...

 

So this all happened after Mother had been doing lots of preliminary

work upon me, including divesting me of a dysfunctional

marriage......She couldn't have come earlier because the Transits and

such weren't right, and i probably wouldn't have responded to Her the

way i did...Mother knows the right time and that's when She calls Her

children to come and be with Her...

 

i insist that it is NOT i who found the Guru, but the Guru who found

me...i WASN'T looking for one so how could i find one????

But Mother knew the stars were right, and She created just the right

circumstances which drew Her beloved little child to Her lap, even

despite his own will!!! i was no desperate Guru seeker i can assure

you...i was in fact allergic to that whole idea of heirarchy, and

bowing down to other people...at heart with my Saturn atmakaraka and

lagnesha, i am an anarchist...not that i believe in disorder, but that

i believe everyone is quite capable of doing their jobs rightly out of

their own wills, and abilities...thus we don't need those authority

types...in short a real democrat i guess...self-referral is the thing

for me...But even "Sani" can recognise his Guru....When She arrives

and lets him know in no uncertain terms the state of affairs....

 

any wisdom i have absorbed is entirely Mother's will...She created

this child, and gave him the questing, Loving heart...and when the

time was right She revealed Herself to Herself, so to speak....Only

Love has done all this...what we love is not hard to focus on...what

we love becomes a continual "mantra" in the mind....so one can take NO

credit for absorbing anything...Love alone is doing all this...i

really am nothing but Mother's little child, and Her love is what

fills this heart with Bliss, encouraging the child to share it with

everyone...the best treats are shared with everyone after all!!!!

 

Mother says: "Come children...sweets!!!!" and we run laughing to Her

Sweet lap......knowing that She is the sweetest sweet of all!!

 

In That Divine Mother's Love,

and in Her Service,

this child

bows

humbly

to all

saluting

them

with

folded hands.

 

as ever

Your Own Self,

 

visvanathan

 

Om Amrtesvaryai Namah!

[Guest guest]

gjlist, "Wendy Vasicek" <wenvas@o...> wrote:

> Dear Visvanathan, Mani, et al,

>

One of

> my greatest Guru's was a dog...Yes! the four-footed kind...a wise

Guru was

> he! PLEASE NOTE: lord of

6th

> house of "Pets" exalted in 9th house of Guru :-)

>

Om Amrtesvaryai Namah!

 

Namaste dear Wendy!!

 

You have hit that old nail right on the head again...one of my

favourite Gurus too, is my four footed friend, a very sweet border

collie cross, whom i regard as a very dear friend, and a teacher at

times...other times...well, when she's just been rolling in dead

animals...(her favourite perfume)....then she stays outside...til she

gets a little cleaner....no matter how loveable she is!!

 

but i totally agree with you that if one is sensitive enough the

entire creation is the Guru...this is what Amma Herself has said was

Her Guru...the entire creation itself...which in a Sakta view is

actually the "Embodiment" of the Divine Mother....if we are sensitive

to Her messages, She is always talking to us, whispering in the

breezes, calling in the eagles shriek, or the sweet reedy chortling of

the ducks.....When the wind dances the trees, the Mother is

dancing...but we have to SEE this...and sometimes we need a teacher in

a human form to SHOW us...this does not mean we should get hooked on

the finger, but rather look at what the finger is pointing to...the

Moon...

 

there is the classic example of the Avadhuta Dattatreya, who saw the

entire creation as his Guru...but had listed some of the exact

teachings from the exact "teachers" that he had...animals, the wind,

trees, and so on...He was VERY sensitive in that direction...and so

can we be i believe and trust...but we have to give ourselves the time

and space to do this...in a crowded man made city-scape with rush rush

rush, it will be all the much more difficult to find this core of

quietness within, which is humility itself, which is open to the

teachings of the Universal Guru, the Creation...

 

in my case, the lord of the sixth IS the lord of the

ninth....Mercury...and He is also Amma's Jaimini Atmakaraka...as well

as a resident of my 12th house in Mula (Sagittarius)...(the Guru's

Home or Ashram)...Thus you'd have to say that the lord of the

pets (6th Gemini) is the same as the Lord of the Guru's house (9th

Virgo), and that lord is sitting in the Guru's home or Ashram, the

12th (Sagittarius)...and IS my Guru so to speak.....and i'd have to

say that my dear doggy friend, is really another example of Amma's

Grace...and Her teachings in compassion...and Love of others.She was

presented to us with this choice...either take her or the current

owner would shoot her...

faced with this we adopted her right now...and have never regretted

it...i have learned as much from that dog as from most of the other

"teachers" i've had in this life...without a word, she is always

talking...without a word, she is humble, loving, kind, and always

there for you....i once saw a notice of a poll in which a majority of

people had thought that their DOG understood them better than their

spouse did!!!! and it's possibly true...cause people get stuck in

their wordy egotistic self-defenses...and can't see who you really

are...your behaviour obscurs the real you...

 

In short i have seen my Guru, Amma's teaching me THRU my friend, the

dog...(as well as every other person and being that i run

into...and as well as every situation that i find myself in)....and

that may seem crazy to some...but why should i care what they

think?...the ones with eyes will see, and the ones with ears will

hear...and the others won't...but these words are not for them

anyways....May She Bless you always!!

 

In the Divine Mother's Love,

and in Her Service

 

as ever,

Your own Self,

 

visvanathan

 

Om Amrtesvaryai Namah!!

[Guest guest]

kasi_visvanath wrote:

>

> Namaste dear Jyotishis, esp. Mani!

>

> My dear brother Mani, i really MUST take issue with you over a couple

> of slightly "wild" statements you made on this list....

>

> First of all my brother, i have NEVER ONCE claimed that Amma gave me

> any "enlightenment"...that would be a false claim...i am only one of

> the Lovers....

 

 

Dear KV,

 

I accept your correction in only one respect: the word "enlightenment" was

perhaps wrong, "inspiration" is perhaps better. ....

 

Otherwise you only confirm what I said! Your definition of "guru" does not apply

to the "guru/ sampradaya" which is frequently mentioned on the list. This latter

guru is one with whom a disciple spends a period of time. The guru teaches

daily, tells the disciple what to read, what mantras to recite and how etc. He

explains the meaning of the scriptures and the "sampradya". He is a mentor.

 

Ammachi, Sai Baba and Meera are not gurus in this latter sense at all. They are

ideals. They rarely sit and explain every word of the Gita or any other

scripture. They talk in parables, explain life and the only "sampradaya" they

teach is "devotion to God and service to the community". You see Ammachi once a

year for a few hours, she speaks to you for a few minutes. You may read her

stories and words and learn, but you are not "initiated" by that. Even if she

gave you a mantra and a name, she did not teach you the scriptures.

 

There is no sampradya in her presence. When she blesses us a Dutch girl sings

Ave Maria or Miserere! At Sai Baba´s ashram they perform Handel´s Messiah and

during the great "Halleluja" chorus Sai Baba stands with a beatific smile and

moves his hand as if he were conducting!

 

If I wanted to I could call these teachers my gurus, but I don´t, so as to be

precise in my language. The first time I went to Ammachi the helpers had closed

the queue for the blessing and politely told me to sit outside the cordon. At

that moment Ammachi looked at me right across the huge hall, gave a great smile

of welcome and gestured to me to jump over the rope and join the queue. The

helpers saw this and had to allow me to do so. Later on and on all the occasions

when I went her she told me to sit on the dais with her after blessing me. The

last time was 2 years ago. I had a terrible time driving to her, with a 12 mile

long traffic jam, came dead tired to the hall. Ammachi must have sensed this and

also that I would not be able to see her for some time. I had taken my place at

the end of the line. Suddenly a swamiji came and said, Amma wants you to come

to the dais. So I sat with her for an hour or so. She then suddenly gave me her

hug and blessing - out of turn! - and said, "Have a nap and come back in the

evening!"

 

So i know that she sees me too as her child. and i see her as my mother, not

Guru. She is Jagathguru, a World Teacher. Such gurus "throw" the seeds out, but

only the seeds that fall on fertile soil become plants. Or, only "those who have

ears will hear"! The receptivity has to be there at first. In my definition

Ammachi is not your guru: she is the visible incarnation of your inner guru, who

is THE GREAT MOTHER! she dos not sit with you to teach you anything, but sends

out her inspiration to you - and you learn by meditating, observing and

understanding. Ammachi does not give you questions to answer, does not correct

your answers or discuss them with you. A jyothishi guru would do just that, if

you were his student: it is his job to see that you learn your lessons well!

 

I personally think that to learn jyothish one DOES need a guru, at least a

"postal guru". Someone who goes through the excercises with you. Western

astrology can be learnt without a guru in person. there are enough books to

learn from - also a lot of bla bla bla, like deep analyses of sun-signs, which

end up applicable to everybody! Those who talk of Sanjay or Rao as guru are

missing the point if they only read their books. Do they correspond with the

teachers, give readings and get corrections? Some kind of formal teaching is

essential, unless you are a genius like Michael Farady, who was an illiterate

bottle-washer in a lab, but discovered so many things about electricity.

 

But to find the way to God, an external guru is not essential. Good if you find

one, but if you don´t, you are not lost! The inner voice is sufficient.

 

regards

Mani

[Guest guest]

kasi_visvanath wrote:

 

> Namaste dear Wendy!!

>

> You have hit that old nail right on the head again...one of my

> favourite Gurus too, is my four footed friend, a very sweet border

> collie cross,

 

Dear KV,

 

Great sharing. I know about some dogs that could communicate even better: they

could "write". Thomas Mann had a dog which could write on a specially made

typewriter with simplified alphabet. A family in Germany had a whole family of

dogs who could tap out the alphabet and one of them used to write letters to

people, wrote his own autobiography. Also asked and answered questions. Asked

why dogs seem to prefer to live with human beings rather than amongst

themselves, he said, "We are here to comfort humans, for they have so many

problems and sorrows!"

 

There is another strange factor. Siva is described as resident in "cemeteries"

and the jackal was his symbol. The Deity of the Oasis of Siva in Libya also had

a jackal as symbol - as well as a linga! Svaa in sanskrit means jackal or

dog......... And of course, dog reversed is God! ... Canum is dog, canon a

clergyman.

 

regards

Mani