Guest guest Posted April 27, 2001 Report Share Posted April 27, 2001 Dear Wendy and Manoj, At 12:38 PM 4/27/01 +0800, you wrote: >Manoj (apparently) wrote: >========== >Dear Wendy, > >I for one also conform to the seven Karaka scheme and if we work upto >seconds, there wont even be a confusion when two planets assume exactly the >same longitude. So I take only Seven Karakas and they work well for me. > >regards, > >Manoj What Manoj is referring to here, is the practice of using Rahu as a karaka, only if two planets have the same degrees and minutes. This is one belief among astrologers, and is in use, especially among those who ascribe to Sri K.N. Rao's approach. Yet, my question still persists: Parasara named 8 karakas: Atma, Amatya, Bhratri, Matri, Pitri, Putra, Jnati, and Dara. If not for Rahu, who then will be the 8th karaka? This question is still unanswered. "O Best of the Brahmanas, the planet after the Atmakaraka is called the Amatya karaka. That next to the Amatya karaka is the Bhratri karaka. That next to the Bhratri karaka is the Matri karaka. That next to the Matri karaka is the Pitri karaka, and then there is the Putra karaka. After that there is the Jnati karaka, and then, without doubt we have the Dara karaka." (BPHS 32:13-14) Best wishes, Robert ===================================== Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer 760 NW Broken Arrow Rd. Bend, OR. 97701-9037 Phone: 541-318-0248 visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail rk. rk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2001 Report Share Posted April 28, 2001 Hello Robert, No I was not referring to Rahu in my scheme of Karakas. Try understanding this. Nabhasa Yogas do not take Rahu and Ketu into consideration. Shad bal calculations have no place for Rahu and Ketu. Solar and Lunar yogas have no place for Rahu and Ketu. There are many places where the Sage excluded Rahu and Ketu then what was the compulsion to include them here. Rahu and Ketu are best understood by analysing their dispositors. My list of Karakas are : Atmakaraka Amatya Karaka Bhratri Karaka Matri Karaka Putra Karaka Gnati Karaka and Dara Karaka. No Pitri Karaka. I analyse father from Bhratri Karaka and get excellent results. If need be, I can post charts and show it too. You are an excellent astrologer in pursuit of truth so try and see, if it works and kindly let me know. If need be, we can talk privately through private e-mails and I shall show you how the B.K. works for father. As P.K. also works for education. with best regards, Manoj _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2001 Report Share Posted April 30, 2001 Manoj Pathak wrote: > Hello Robert, > > > My list of Karakas are : > > Atmakaraka > Amatya Karaka > Bhratri Karaka > Matri Karaka > Putra Karaka > Gnati Karaka > and Dara Karaka. Dear Manoj, Would you be so kind as to list the karaka planets too and also say by which system? I have a list of Brighu karakas: sun : father, sons, king, atman, heat moon : mother, daughters, travels, art, fluids, disputes, deception, mind, fluids and cold mars : husband, brothers, fire, blood, instruments, weapons, enemies, injury, anger, masculinity mercury : youngsters, land, cultivation, commerce, friends, education, ntelligence, skin, nose jupiter: teachers, religion, increase, status venus : wife, wealth, home, beauty, luxury, feminity saturn : elders, work, earnings, illness, death, austerity, low-class people rahu : darkness, obsession, madness, vehicles, desires, foreign countries, lareness ketu: spiritual practice, renunciation, thread/rope/net, bricks, small ness, dilapidatuon, disputes, courts of law Here for instance, Jupiter is not mentioned as putrakaraka! Do Parasara and Jaimini each have his own list? regards Mani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2001 Report Share Posted April 30, 2001 Hello Mr. Mani Avl., The Karakas listed by me were the Jaimini Karakas and these are not fixed (sthir) as the Karakas you mentioned for Sun and Moon etc.., These Karakas are moveable (char) and they depend upon the longitudes of planets in the horoscope. The planet which is most advanced is Atma Karaka and then the list follows in sequential order of their longitudes. Hope it helps, Manoj >subra >gjlist >gjlist >Re: [gjlist] Rahu as Atmakaraka: Manoj >Mon, 30 Apr 2001 13:31:26 +0200 > >Manoj Pathak wrote: > > Hello Robert, > > > > > > > My list of Karakas are : > > > > Atmakaraka > > Amatya Karaka > > Bhratri Karaka > > Matri Karaka > > Putra Karaka > > Gnati Karaka > > and Dara Karaka. > > >Dear Manoj, > >Would you be so kind as to list the karaka planets too and also say by >which >system? I have a list of Brighu karakas: > >sun : father, sons, king, atman, heat > >moon : mother, daughters, travels, art, fluids, disputes, deception, mind, >fluids and cold > >mars : husband, brothers, fire, blood, instruments, weapons, enemies, >injury, anger, masculinity > >mercury : youngsters, land, cultivation, commerce, friends, education, >ntelligence, skin, nose > >jupiter: teachers, religion, increase, status > >venus : wife, wealth, home, beauty, luxury, feminity > >saturn : elders, work, earnings, illness, death, austerity, low-class >people > >rahu : darkness, obsession, madness, vehicles, desires, foreign countries, >lareness > >ketu: spiritual practice, renunciation, thread/rope/net, bricks, small >ness, >dilapidatuon, disputes, courts of law > >Here for instance, Jupiter is not mentioned as putrakaraka! > >Do Parasara and Jaimini each have his own list? > > >regards >Mani > > > >gjlist- > > > >Your use of is subject to > > _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2001 Report Share Posted April 30, 2001 Om Krishnaaya Namah Hello Manoj and All, Having made my point on this issue, I had decided to stop arguing in futility, but I couldn't resist butting in here. > place for Rahu and Ketu. There are many places where the Sage > excluded Rahu > and Ketu then what was the compulsion to include them here. There are also many places where Rahu IS included. Surely the argument being put forward here isn't that just because they are excluded in certain places, they should be ignored in all other areas as well? Those of us who use the eight karaka scheme have no "compulsion", we are simply trying to follow the opinion of the Sages. I have no problem with anybody using a technique that they find useful and successful - don't get me wrong. But what I really can't understand is the way that at certain places in this thread the use of eight karakas has been described as "misleading" and "compulsive", when clearly there is a classical basis for this system. On the contrary, there is no classical statement to be found sanctioning the use of seven karakas as is commonly used today, because while the Sages talk about a seven-karaka scheme used by some of their contemporaries, they clearly mention that in that scheme the Putra karaka is left out, while the Pitri karaka is still considered. So, because the current seven-karaka scheme excludes the Pitri karaka instead of the Putra karaka, no matter which way one goes about interpreting the Shastras, one cannot find any authority sanctioning this scheme. So, if the seven karaka scheme works for you - good for you! But to call the eight-karaka scheme "compulsive" or "misleading" by classical jyotish standards, one would have to be misguided themselves. No offence intended - Life's too short, Pursottam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2001 Report Share Posted April 30, 2001 Dear Manoj, Namaskara - You wrote: >My list of Karakas are : > >Atmakaraka >Amatya Karaka >Bhratri Karaka >Matri Karaka >Putra Karaka >Gnati Karaka >and Dara Karaka. > >No Pitri Karaka. I analyse father from Bhratri Karaka and get excellent >results. If need be, I can post charts and show it too. You are an excellent >astrologer in pursuit of truth so try and see, if it works and kindly let me >know. If need be, we can talk privately through private e-mails and I shall >show you how the B.K. works for father. > >As P.K. also works for education. It was pointed out earlier, that when Parasara mentions the 7 karaka scheme, Pitri was included, while Putra and Matri were merged. Now, in your scheme as above, this is at odds with the version of Parasara. Evidently according to your methodology, Bhratri and Pitri are merged instead. I know where this came from, as I too had learned about Chara karakas and Jaimini initially from Sri K.N. Rao as you evidently have. With due respect to you and Sri Rao, however, this is not taught as per the 7 karaka scheme in BPHS. If you insist on excluding Rahu, then why do you not include Pitri, and merge Matri and Putra as suggested by the sage? Further, I had used the 7 karaka scheme for years up until about a year ago. Now, I am much more satisfied using Rahu as karaka, as with his inclusion, there is no merging of karakas. We have individual Sthira karakas, so why should there be merging of Chara karakas? In my own chart, the 8 karaka system works perfectly, whereas the 7 karaka scheme does not. Finally, even though Parasara mentions both systems, he himself prefers the 8 karaka scheme, as can easily be understood from both BPHS and Jaimini sutram. Finally, standard texts prescribe the 4th house for education, and not the 5th. Sri Rao, I know, recommends the 5th for education, but I am at variance (respectfully) with him on this also. The higher dimensions of the 4th harmonic, becomes the 24th, which is knowledge, namely 6 x 4. Further, the 2nd is what one knows, and being the 11th (gains) from the 4th, indicates how we can see the fruits of education (knolwedge) from the 4th house. Higher education, is the 9th, as well as the 9th from the 9th, i.e. the 5th. These are the classical recommendations. So no, Putra karaka is for children, not education. Anyway, thank you much the same for your input. With sincere regards, Robert ===================================== Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer 760 NW Broken Arrow Rd. Bend, OR. 97701-9037 Phone: 541-318-0248 visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail rk. rk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2001 Report Share Posted April 30, 2001 Namaste, There are many references in BPHS and Jaimini regarding the 5th house for learning, more so than the 9th. It is not enough that the arudha of the 9th is the 5th. There must be more to it. Jaimini gives the 5th house from Swamsa as the house showing the learning. Parasara gives the 5th house and 2nd. Parasra says regarding the 5th that learning is seen from it. However learning is indicated by both 4th and 5th: BPHS "If the 4th's lord is in the 1st Bhava, the native will be endowed with learning..." "If the 4th's lord is in the 7th house, the native will be endowed with a high degree of education..." "If the 10th's lord is in the 5th house, the native will be endowed with all kinds of learning..." "If the 12th's lord is in the 5th house, the native will be bereft of sons and learning." regards, Alex J gjlist, "Robert A. Koch" <rkoch@b...> wrote: > Dear Manoj, > > Namaskara - > > You wrote: > > >My list of Karakas are : > > > >Atmakaraka > >Amatya Karaka > >Bhratri Karaka > >Matri Karaka > >Putra Karaka > >Gnati Karaka > >and Dara Karaka. > > > >No Pitri Karaka. I analyse father from Bhratri Karaka and get excellent > >results. If need be, I can post charts and show it too. You are an excellent > >astrologer in pursuit of truth so try and see, if it works and kindly let me > >know. If need be, we can talk privately through private e-mails and I shall > >show you how the B.K. works for father. > > > >As P.K. also works for education. > > It was pointed out earlier, that when Parasara mentions the 7 karaka > scheme, Pitri was included, while Putra and Matri were merged. Now, in > your scheme as above, this is at odds with the version of > Parasara. Evidently according to your methodology, Bhratri and Pitri are > merged instead. I know where this came from, as I too had learned about > Chara karakas and Jaimini initially from Sri K.N. Rao as you evidently > have. With due respect to you and Sri Rao, however, this is not taught as > per the 7 karaka scheme in BPHS. If you insist on excluding Rahu, then why > do you not include Pitri, and merge Matri and Putra as suggested by the sage? > > Further, I had used the 7 karaka scheme for years up until about a year > ago. Now, I am much more satisfied using Rahu as karaka, as with his > inclusion, there is no merging of karakas. We have individual Sthira > karakas, so why should there be merging of Chara karakas? In my own chart, > the 8 karaka system works perfectly, whereas the 7 karaka scheme does > not. Finally, even though Parasara mentions both systems, he himself > prefers the 8 karaka scheme, as can easily be understood from both BPHS and > Jaimini sutram. > > Finally, standard texts prescribe the 4th house for education, and not the > 5th. Sri Rao, I know, recommends the 5th for education, but I am at > variance (respectfully) with him on this also. The higher dimensions of > the 4th harmonic, becomes the 24th, which is knowledge, namely 6 x > 4. Further, the 2nd is what one knows, and being the 11th (gains) from the > 4th, indicates how we can see the fruits of education (knolwedge) from the > 4th house. Higher education, is the 9th, as well as the 9th from the 9th, > i.e. the 5th. These are the classical recommendations. So no, Putra > karaka is for children, not education. > > Anyway, thank you much the same for your input. > > With sincere regards, > Robert > > ===================================== > Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer > 760 NW Broken Arrow Rd. > Bend, OR. 97701-9037 > Phone: 541-318-0248 > visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail > rk@r... rk@r... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2001 Report Share Posted April 30, 2001 Hello Pushottam, It was nice to read your post. I had only said, the 7 Karaka scheme, and that too, which I listed works very well for me and never did I say that the 8 Karaka scheme is "misleading" and "compulsive". I never force my will on anyone, I just give my views, and advise others to test it before rejecting. A principle which I adopt. This is a very vast world, and everyone is born with his "own" Karmas which he has to accomplish in this life. So please dont attribute to me, which I never meant to say. with best regards, Manoj _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2001 Report Share Posted April 30, 2001 Namaste, I am not competent to comment on Jamini , but for education use 5th house for basic education, for higher education go to 4rth house for research go to 9th, for education connected with pleasure and subconscious check 3rd house. Inder Jit sahni - <lostinmotion <gjlist> Tuesday, May 01, 2001 9:44 AM [gjlist] Re: Rahu as Atmakaraka: Manoj > Namaste, > > There are many references in BPHS and Jaimini regarding the 5th house > for learning, more so than the 9th. It is not enough that the arudha > of the 9th is the 5th. There must be more to it. Jaimini gives the > 5th house from Swamsa as the house showing the learning. Parasara > gives the 5th house and 2nd. > > Parasra says regarding the 5th that learning is seen from it. > > However learning is indicated by both 4th and 5th: > > BPHS > > "If the 4th's lord is in the 1st Bhava, the native will be endowed > with learning..." > > "If the 4th's lord is in the 7th house, the native will be endowed > with a high degree of education..." > > "If the 10th's lord is in the 5th house, the native will be endowed > with all kinds of learning..." > > "If the 12th's lord is in the 5th house, the native will be bereft of > sons and learning." > > regards, > > Alex J > > > gjlist, "Robert A. Koch" <rkoch@b...> wrote: > > Dear Manoj, > > > > Namaskara - > > > > You wrote: > > > > >My list of Karakas are : > > > > > >Atmakaraka > > >Amatya Karaka > > >Bhratri Karaka > > >Matri Karaka > > >Putra Karaka > > >Gnati Karaka > > >and Dara Karaka. > > > > > >No Pitri Karaka. I analyse father from Bhratri Karaka and get > excellent > > >results. If need be, I can post charts and show it too. You are an > excellent > > >astrologer in pursuit of truth so try and see, if it works and > kindly let me > > >know. If need be, we can talk privately through private e-mails > and I shall > > >show you how the B.K. works for father. > > > > > >As P.K. also works for education. > > > > It was pointed out earlier, that when Parasara mentions the 7 > karaka > > scheme, Pitri was included, while Putra and Matri were merged. > Now, in > > your scheme as above, this is at odds with the version of > > Parasara. Evidently according to your methodology, Bhratri and > Pitri are > > merged instead. I know where this came from, as I too had learned > about > > Chara karakas and Jaimini initially from Sri K.N. Rao as you > evidently > > have. With due respect to you and Sri Rao, however, this is not > taught as > > per the 7 karaka scheme in BPHS. If you insist on excluding Rahu, > then why > > do you not include Pitri, and merge Matri and Putra as suggested by > the sage? > > > > Further, I had used the 7 karaka scheme for years up until about a > year > > ago. Now, I am much more satisfied using Rahu as karaka, as with > his > > inclusion, there is no merging of karakas. We have individual > Sthira > > karakas, so why should there be merging of Chara karakas? In my > own chart, > > the 8 karaka system works perfectly, whereas the 7 karaka scheme > does > > not. Finally, even though Parasara mentions both systems, he > himself > > prefers the 8 karaka scheme, as can easily be understood from both > BPHS and > > Jaimini sutram. > > > > Finally, standard texts prescribe the 4th house for education, and > not the > > 5th. Sri Rao, I know, recommends the 5th for education, but I am > at > > variance (respectfully) with him on this also. The higher > dimensions of > > the 4th harmonic, becomes the 24th, which is knowledge, namely 6 x > > 4. Further, the 2nd is what one knows, and being the 11th (gains) > from the > > 4th, indicates how we can see the fruits of education (knolwedge) > from the > > 4th house. Higher education, is the 9th, as well as the 9th from > the 9th, > > i.e. the 5th. These are the classical recommendations. So no, > Putra > > karaka is for children, not education. > > > > Anyway, thank you much the same for your input. > > > > With sincere regards, > > Robert > > > > ===================================== > > Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer > > 760 NW Broken Arrow Rd. > > Bend, OR. 97701-9037 > > Phone: 541-318-0248 > > visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail > > rk@r... rk@r... > > > > gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > _______ Get your free @ address at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2001 Report Share Posted May 1, 2001 > Do Parasara and Jaimini each have his own list? Yes. Regards Anshu - <subra <gjlist> Monday, 30 April, 2001 04:31 AM Re: [gjlist] Rahu as Atmakaraka: Manoj > Manoj Pathak wrote: > > Hello Robert, > > > > > > > My list of Karakas are : > > > > Atmakaraka > > Amatya Karaka > > Bhratri Karaka > > Matri Karaka > > Putra Karaka > > Gnati Karaka > > and Dara Karaka. > > > Dear Manoj, > > Would you be so kind as to list the karaka planets too and also say by which > system? I have a list of Brighu karakas: > > sun : father, sons, king, atman, heat > > moon : mother, daughters, travels, art, fluids, disputes, deception, mind, > fluids and cold > > mars : husband, brothers, fire, blood, instruments, weapons, enemies, > injury, anger, masculinity > > mercury : youngsters, land, cultivation, commerce, friends, education, > ntelligence, skin, nose > > jupiter: teachers, religion, increase, status > > venus : wife, wealth, home, beauty, luxury, feminity > > saturn : elders, work, earnings, illness, death, austerity, low-class people > > rahu : darkness, obsession, madness, vehicles, desires, foreign countries, > lareness > > ketu: spiritual practice, renunciation, thread/rope/net, bricks, small ness, > dilapidatuon, disputes, courts of law > > Here for instance, Jupiter is not mentioned as putrakaraka! > > Do Parasara and Jaimini each have his own list? > > > regards > Mani > > > > gjlist- > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 Om Krishnaaya Namah Hello Manoj, Thank you very much for you mail. > that too, which I listed works very well for me and never did I > say that the > 8 Karaka scheme is "misleading" and "compulsive". I know you were not the person who used the word "misleading", and I want to apologise if you or anyone did get this impression. Rather, through this particular thread, it had been used. > I never force > my will on > anyone, I just give my views, and advise others to test it before > rejecting. > A principle which I adopt. This is a very vast world, and I agree with this principle of yours, and though we are here to debate the utility of various astrological principles, ultimately we all test them in our own way to determine whether one has any use for them or not. This is why I stopped on this thread after making my point. The first time when it was referred to as a "misleading" view (NOT BY YOU), I ignored it. However, when your mail came through suggesting the inclusion of Rahu was a "compulsion", I had to speak out. So please accept my sincere apologies if I caused any offence. That truly wasn't my aim. As regards testing the seven-karaka scheme, well I have used it, and I can see why one finds it successful - often, most karakas remain the same as those in the eight-karaka scheme. Therefore it works well lots of times. However, having used this system, it was clear that their were major problems with some charts. When I was first introduced to the eight-karaka scheme, I found that these problems were solved, and now the eight-karaka scheme works very well indeed. However, as I said, because the difference is subtle, one needs to test the system on those charts where the karakas change over the two systems. Or the other way would be to test charts whose natives have major problems with their fathers. In that case, one could analyse the Bhratri karaka, as per the seven-karaka scheme, and then the Pitri karaka, as per the eight karaka scheme. I present below one example. This is the data of a native which was actually shared quite some time ago by a fellow list-member. It was revealed that this person lost their father at age eleven, and there are quite clear indications in the chart for this event, which I discussed before and so won't go into now. What I am doing is examining the Pitri karaka of the eight-karaka scheme, against the Bhratri karaka of the seven-karaka scheme. To me, the former clearly reflects reality. Data: 7 October 1949 4:13am New Delhi, India ******************************************************* ** * * ** * * SUN * * PLU * * * * KET MER * * MAR * * * * NEP * * * * * * * * * * * * VIR* LAG * CAN* * * LIB** **GEM * * * * SAT * * URA * * * * * * * * * VEN * * * * * * * * * * * * * LEO * * * * * * * * * * SCO * TAU * * * * * * * * * * AQU * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * SAG** **ARI * * * CAP* * PIS* * * * * * * * * JUP * * * * * * * * * RAH * * * * * * MOO * * ** * * ** ******************************************************* In this chart, the Moon is the Pitri karaka, while Saturn is the Bhratri karaka. Saturn is in the Lagna, and it is true he is in an enemies house, and hemmed-in between malefics. He also receives a planetary aspect from Jupiter, who is the eighth Lord. But there is no serious afflictions by aspect. The Moon on the other hand is in the eighth house, associated with Rahu. It gets planetary and sign aspects from the natural malefics Sun, Mercury, and naturally Ketu. It is aspected (sign-based) by Jupiter, the eighth Lord. There are certainly serious afflictions to the Moon, in the eighth house. Here, I think the Moon clearly shows early loss of the father. Clearly, there will be some charts contradicting this principle, as nothing in astrology is fixed. But, my feeling is that a larger number of charts will reflect the accuracy of the eight-karaka scheme. Thanks for your time, Pursottam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.