Atmakaraka Rahu: Pursottam

[Guest guest]

Om Parasmai Jyotishe namah

 

Dear Pursottam,

 

Thank you for quoting BPHS and other shastras to illustrate Rahu/Ketu

lordships, as well as Rahu's becoming Atmakaraka. Yes, it is clear from

the passages you quote from Parasara, that the sage favored the 8 karaka

scheme (adding Rahu), over 7, which in effect merges two into one (viz.

Matri and Putra karakas).

 

Anyway, here is what I learned from Sanjay Rath, who explained the position

of Rahu as Atmakaraka: The AK in essence governs the path of the Atma,

whose ultimate destination is Moksha (freedom from the repetitions of birth

and death). There is in fact, no other purpose for the soul having achieved

birth in a human body, than to realize the Truth of the Jivatma (individual

soul), and that of the Paramatma (the Supersoul, or indwelling feature of

God with the hearts of all beings), and the difference between these are

the temporal energy, Tatastha shakti (maya). The Vedanta makes this clear

in the form of condensed codes, or sutras, such as "Atato brahma jijnasa"

(now [in the human form] it is time to realize Spirit), or "Sarvam etat

Brahman eti" (Brahman, or God, is everything). Now, astrologically the

Chara karaka (temporary significator) that guides the soul to this ultimate

realization, is the Atmakaraka. That which holds the soul back in his

progress, due to his indulgence in the senses and the physical reality, is

Maya, or illusion. The Atmkarakas thus clears away karmas enacted on the

physical plane, and that is why one suffers (materially speaking) during

dasas of the Atmakaraka. Now, Rahu is the center of most stigmatic

karmas, and thus if Rahu becomes the AK, it is understood that the soul has

come a long way in purifying and cleansing the results of prior karmas.

 

Cases in point: I have seen many charts of highly advanced spiritual

leaders, whose Atmakaraka was Rahu. Most of notable of this, is the chart

of Sri Srimad A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the founder/acharya of

the Hare Krsna movement. There are many others as well. So, if we

attribute Rahu to the repository of unreconciled karmas, it is clear that

there is little left to be purified if he becomes the Atmakaraka.

 

RAHU/KETU AS RULERS OF HOUSES:

 

Another point that I wanted to make is this: If Rahu/Ketu respectively

become the stronger lords of Aquarius and Scorpio, then they should be

considered for all matters regarding the houses they rule. Yes, the

stronger of Saturn/Rahu and Mars/Ketu, as you pointed out, should be used

for Rasi dasa calculations, as well as Arudha determinations, yet they

should also be used as the lord of the house they are associated

with. This will give clearer indications, for example, regarding the

nature or quality of one's partner (Rahu/Ketu, as opposed to Saturn/Mars,

ruling the 7th house); or the nature of one's career (Rahu/Ketu ruling the

10th). If one's 10th lord is Rahu, then he/she would more likely gravitate

toward careers associated with science, technology, or research. If Saturn

becomes the stronger lord, then the career is more associated with

humanities, economics, counselling, or administrative work. So you see,

you have to take into account the stronger ruler in case you need to

determine finer subtleties regarding the house in question.

 

Best wishes,

Robert

 

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

760 NW Broken Arrow Rd.

Bend, OR. 97701-9037

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk. rk

[Guest guest]

Om Krishnaaya Namah

 

Hare Krsna, Robert,

 

Thanks for your mail on Rahu being AK.

 

>

> RAHU/KETU AS RULERS OF HOUSES:

>

> Another point that I wanted to make is this: If Rahu/Ketu respectively

> become the stronger lords of Aquarius and Scorpio, then they should be

> considered for all matters regarding the houses they rule.

 

I've been through about thirty charts over last night and today, and

generally I find that this does actually seem to work, contrary to what I

originally assumed. One example would be Prince Charles' chart, where Rahu

is the stronger Lord of the eighth rather than Saturn. Rahu in the tenth in

conjunction with the Moon very much tells the story of a person inheriting a

kingdom and career from his mother. Or Madonnna, where Rahu, as the seventh

Lord is tightly conjunct the eighth Lord in Libra in the third, receiving an

aspect from Mars, and Rahu's dispositor Venus going to the twelfth. This

does seem very telling of her obsession with sex, for want of a better

choice of words. But, in taking the nodes as the Lords of these houses, how

much emphasis do you place on Mars/Saturn? The reason I ask is that with the

strength rules, it is practically impossible for Aquarius or Scorpio to be

occupied by their own Lords (unless both Lords conjoin in that sign). So if

we take ONLY the strongest Lord, isn't there some danger of missing out on

other important indications e.g. Saturn in Aquarius in a house may tell a

significant story. So how much emphasis do you place on the weaker of the

two Lords?

 

Thanks and Haribol,

 

Pursottam

[Guest guest]

Dear Pursottam,

 

Thank you for your question, and reply to my mail on Rahu as house lords:

 

>But, in taking the nodes as the Lords of these houses, how

>much emphasis do you place on Mars/Saturn? The reason I ask is that with the

>strength rules, it is practically impossible for Aquarius or Scorpio to be

>occupied by their own Lords (unless both Lords conjoin in that sign). So if

>we take ONLY the strongest Lord, isn't there some danger of missing out on

>other important indications e.g. Saturn in Aquarius in a house may tell a

>significant story. So how much emphasis do you place on the weaker of the

>two Lords?

 

Naturally, if Saturn is in the 10th for a Taurus rising chart, he is going

to be a powerful yogakaraka as 9th and 10th lord in the 10th. Yet, you

will often find, that even with such persons, the powerful career and its

directions is a bit obscured until the person is well into middle age (a

typical situation arising with Saturn in angular positions). Or, not much

at all happens in the way of career, unless Saturn in such a situation is

reinforced by other Raja-yoga forming planets. Anyway, you are right, that

a yogakaraka planet in own sign (viz. Saturn in Aquarius for Taurus rising,

or Mars in Scorpio for Cancer rising) cannot be overlooked, at least until

you quantify the true ruler's (Rahu or Ketu in this case) position in the

rasi chart, as well as divisional charts. You can also treat the co-lord

as a dispositor, and see where he goes to further clarify the direction and

strength of the house co-ruled. Still, the fact is, more often than not,

the stronger ruler gives a greater clarity on the directions/proclivities

of the houses they rule. The cases you gave of Madonna and Prince Charles

are poignant and illustrative.

 

Try the following out for research: for Taurus rising charts, which of the

two will give the more significant career directions: Saturn in the 10th in

Aq., or Saturn in the 12th in Aries? Of course, you will not find a great

number of charts in either example, but in my experience, the latter should

give the stronger career. Why? Because Saturn is a karaka for 6, 8, and

12, and in the 12th thus gives Vipareet Raja-yoga effects, with connection

to the 10th house. Saturn in Aq. for this asc., would, as the above

illustrates, have to be quantified by wherever Rahu happens to end up, in

rasi, Navamsa, Dasamsa, and other related vargas.

 

 

 

Best wishes,

Robert

 

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

760 NW Broken Arrow Rd.

Bend, OR. 97701-9037

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk. rk

[Guest guest]

Om Krishnaaya Namah

 

Hi Robert,

 

Hare Krsna. Thanks for your last mail.

 

>

> Try the following out for research: for Taurus rising charts,

> which of the

> two will give the more significant career directions: Saturn in

> the 10th in

> Aq., or Saturn in the 12th in Aries? Of course, you will not

> find a great

> number of charts in either example, but in my experience, the

> latter should

> give the stronger career. Why? Because Saturn is a karaka for 6, 8, and

> 12, and in the 12th thus gives Vipareet Raja-yoga effects, with

> connection

> to the 10th house. Saturn in Aq. for this asc., would, as the above

> illustrates, have to be quantified by wherever Rahu happens to end up, in

> rasi, Navamsa, Dasamsa, and other related vargas.

>

 

Finding charts in GJ is not a big problem. There is an excellent facility

which allows one to search for planets and the Lagna in any house, sign,

and/or nakshatra. So out of the famous people's database, provided one chose

to have them all calculated at installation, one can in fact access a list

of charts with any placement (or combination of placements) one requires.

The problem is that in calculating them at installation sometimes there seem

to be mistakes in Lagna calculations, which could mean that you get charts

that shouldn't be in your list, or miss charts that should be. The only

solution (as far as I know) is to tab through the data of each famous person

and calculate the chart again. Anyway, I did produce a list of people with

Saturn in Aries in the twelfth, and up came a list of twenty-five people who

I'd never heard of. So I just re-did some of those charts to make sure they

were really Taurus risings, and the chart of someone called "Ginger Rogers"

sounded interesting, only because Ginger is an unusual name! But the chart

is very interesting. Here's the data:

 

16 July 1911

2:00 am

Independence, MO, USA

Lagna = 16* Taurus

 

If there is one chart that shows that a weak Saturn in a Dusthana causes

Viparita Raja Yoga, then it's got to be this one. Saturn is Yogakaraka by

virtue of the fact that he rules the ninth and tenth. But, he is debilitated

in the twelfth, associated with Mars and Rahu. The only relief comes from

Jupiter, but even his aspect can't counteract everything else, especially as

he is severely weakened by a tight conjunction with Ketu. In Shad Bala,

Saturn doesn't get his minimum. In Vimshopaka, he gets less that 10 (i.e.

less than 50%). In AV, he gets 3 in his own, and 29 in SAV. In the Navamsha,

he occupies Scorpio, so if we use Navamsha tulya Rashi, then he gets 0

bindus in his own AV, and 25 in SAV. He's going a bit faster than average

speed. So no matter how one looks at this Saturn, he is extremely weak

(although perhaps rashi drishti from Venus and the Moon may help). Saturn

Dasha ran from the age of 10 till 29. Having looked at Saturn

astrologically, I did a web search for this person on the web, and learnt

that she made her performing debut at 14, went to Vaudeville and Broadway

(whatever/wherever they are), and made her first film at 16. She made some

major classical musical in the 1930's, and during that whole decade, she was

in Saturn Dasha. Went to Hollywood in 1931. She even got an Oscar once, but

I don't know when that was.

 

So it does seem like Saturn's extreme weakness here caused an extreme

Viparita Raja Yoga. I realise that this is only one chart, but it certainly

is a very interesting one, and one that has aroused my interest in this

idea.

 

Thanks a lot,

 

Pursottam

[Guest guest]

Robert wrote:

=============

Naturally, if Saturn is in the 10th for a Taurus rising chart, he is going

to be a powerful yogakaraka as 9th and 10th lord in the 10th. Yet, you

will often find, that even with such persons, the powerful career and its

directions is a bit obscured until the person is well into middle age (a

typical situation arising with Saturn in angular positions). Or, not much

at all happens in the way of career, unless Saturn in such a situation is

reinforced by other Raja-yoga forming planets.

=============================

 

This is so Robert,

 

The reason being, of course, is that Saturn's full potential is not

expressed prior to his maturity (36 and beyond) unless the native runs a

Saturn dasa...otherwise for natives with (favourable) Saturn in 10th, the

greatest success in career normally comes later in life.

 

Likewise natives for whom Saturn is unfavourable will not endure the full

strength of his affliction before his maturity...the exception, of course,

is if Saturn aspects the Ascendant (early life, start in life, etc...)

 

Regards

Wendy

 

Regards

Wendy

[Guest guest]

Hello Robert and Pursottam,

It is a new concept to me , a karka placement in 6th 8th and 12th producing

Vipreeta Rajyoga,as being taught by Robert. It is a general concept that any

house connected with 6th 8th and 12th will loose its significance.

As I understand Vipreeta Rajyoga is connected with lords of 6th 8th and 12th

not karka, it is gains with a process reverse to the normal and accepted

norm. In volvement of 12th housein Vipreet Rajyoga may means one's movement

away from his near and dears and giving him gains otherwise. An 8th house

involvement may stress a man to take up the inheritance unwillingly and

ultimately rising through that . A student not coming in merit but resorting

to Court case and getting admission may have Vipreeta Rajyoga. A person

falling in well and getting Gold there is Vipreet Rajyoga.

One who is on the list with date of birth as 20 April 1934 time 8.00 am IST

, 11n00. 76e58 is having Taurus Ascendant and Venus and Saturn in his 10th

house. Mars in the 12th is along with Sun. Here 4rth house significance has

suffered through Mars. The person left his Country and remain in Foreign

lands. Mars as lord of 12th in 12th is a vipreeta Rajyoga , but association

of Sun has spoiled this combination , and he has suffering from the Mars and

Sun Both. Mars does not provided a happy married life , it also give him

losses through fire or through breaks. It also make him worried to , main

tain his standard .It also give interest in medicines , but not material

gains, aspect of Saturn from 10th is spoiling the relations with father, but

the same planet is giving career in private concerns , and job concerning

movements. And what about his beauty and personality . Saturn and Venus in

the 10th give him will power and self motivation to work. He retired from

the top post he could achieve. His sub lord is Mercury in the constellation

of Saturn, he could be described more by Pisces , average height , talkative

but very cautious , will like to please others with his intellect , not by

personality or appearance, It looks that he is cautious in his appearance to

others , but not shy .

In the given example as The ascendant is Taurus 16 degree , it is surely a

Taurus Vargotam Lagna, the importance goes to Venus , not to Saturn alone.

Saturn is in Scorpio Navmasha and is joining his Navmasha lord in Natal,

further he is in the constellation of Venus , lagna lord and 6th lord placed

in 4rth. Saturn is one of the best star in the quoted chart and very strong

even if it is in fall in the Rashi.

It gives him Status and fame through Venus type things , by moving out from

his birth place and with the help of his lover. (Saturn in Scorpio Navmasha)

 

With regards,

Inder Jit sahni

-

Pursottam <pursottam_dabasia

<gjlist>

Thursday, April 26, 2001 6:58 AM

RE: [gjlist] Atmakaraka Rahu: Pursottam

 

 

> Om Krishnaaya Namah

>

> Hi Robert,

>

> Hare Krsna. Thanks for your last mail.

>

> >

> > Try the following out for research: for Taurus rising charts,

> > which of the

> > two will give the more significant career directions: Saturn in

> > the 10th in

> > Aq., or Saturn in the 12th in Aries? Of course, you will not

> > find a great

> > number of charts in either example, but in my experience, the

> > latter should

> > give the stronger career. Why? Because Saturn is a karaka for 6, 8,

and

> > 12, and in the 12th thus gives Vipareet Raja-yoga effects, with

> > connection

> > to the 10th house. Saturn in Aq. for this asc., would, as the above

> > illustrates, have to be quantified by wherever Rahu happens to end up,

in

> > rasi, Navamsa, Dasamsa, and other related vargas.

> >

>

> Finding charts in GJ is not a big problem. There is an excellent facility

> which allows one to search for planets and the Lagna in any house, sign,

> and/or nakshatra. So out of the famous people's database, provided one

chose

> to have them all calculated at installation, one can in fact access a list

> of charts with any placement (or combination of placements) one requires.

> The problem is that in calculating them at installation sometimes there

seem

> to be mistakes in Lagna calculations, which could mean that you get charts

> that shouldn't be in your list, or miss charts that should be. The only

> solution (as far as I know) is to tab through the data of each famous

person

> and calculate the chart again. Anyway, I did produce a list of people with

> Saturn in Aries in the twelfth, and up came a list of twenty-five people

who

> I'd never heard of. So I just re-did some of those charts to make sure

they

> were really Taurus risings, and the chart of someone called "Ginger

Rogers"

> sounded interesting, only because Ginger is an unusual name! But the chart

> is very interesting. Here's the data:

>

> 16 July 1911

> 2:00 am

> Independence, MO, USA

> Lagna = 16* Taurus

>

> If there is one chart that shows that a weak Saturn in a Dusthana causes

> Viparita Raja Yoga, then it's got to be this one. Saturn is Yogakaraka by

> virtue of the fact that he rules the ninth and tenth. But, he is

debilitated

> in the twelfth, associated with Mars and Rahu. The only relief comes from

> Jupiter, but even his aspect can't counteract everything else, especially

as

> he is severely weakened by a tight conjunction with Ketu. In Shad Bala,

> Saturn doesn't get his minimum. In Vimshopaka, he gets less that 10 (i.e.

> less than 50%). In AV, he gets 3 in his own, and 29 in SAV. In the

Navamsha,

> he occupies Scorpio, so if we use Navamsha tulya Rashi, then he gets 0

> bindus in his own AV, and 25 in SAV. He's going a bit faster than average

> speed. So no matter how one looks at this Saturn, he is extremely weak

> (although perhaps rashi drishti from Venus and the Moon may help). Saturn

> Dasha ran from the age of 10 till 29. Having looked at Saturn

> astrologically, I did a web search for this person on the web, and learnt

> that she made her performing debut at 14, went to Vaudeville and Broadway

> (whatever/wherever they are), and made her first film at 16. She made some

> major classical musical in the 1930's, and during that whole decade, she

was

> in Saturn Dasha. Went to Hollywood in 1931. She even got an Oscar once,

but

> I don't know when that was.

>

> So it does seem like Saturn's extreme weakness here caused an extreme

> Viparita Raja Yoga. I realise that this is only one chart, but it

certainly

> is a very interesting one, and one that has aroused my interest in this

> idea.

>

> Thanks a lot,

>

> Pursottam

>

>

>

> gjlist-

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

 

 

_______

 

Get your free @ address at

[Guest guest]

Om Krishnaaya Namah

 

Hello Inder Jit,

 

Thank you for your comments on the last chart I posted on Viparita Raja

Yoga,

 

> In the given example as The ascendant is Taurus 16 degree , it is surely a

> Taurus Vargotam Lagna, the importance goes to Venus , not to Saturn alone.

> Saturn is in Scorpio Navmasha and is joining his Navmasha lord in Natal,

> further he is in the constellation of Venus , lagna lord and 6th

> lord placed

> in 4rth. Saturn is one of the best star in the quoted chart and

> very strong

> even if it is in fall in the Rashi.

> It gives him Status and fame through Venus type things , by

> moving out from

> his birth place and with the help of his lover. (Saturn in

> Scorpio Navmasha)

>

 

While I have read some analyses based on Krishnamurti Paddhati before,

having never actually studied it, I never could grab the gist of how

arguments are made in that system. So in this system, how much emphasis does

one place on the status of the planet itself, and how much on that of the

Nakshatra dispositor? I have a chart, not intended as a challenge, where

perhaps if you have the time, you could explain the principle you use to

judge favourable stars. I'm not after the event itself, although if you wish

to guess, you are most welcome to do so. However, if you could explain the

favourable status of planets as decided by their Nakshatra dispositors,

especially for the running dashas on the date of the event, then I will be

most grateful.

 

28 September 1954

7:26 am

Lowell, MA, USA

Lagna = 19* Virgo

 

Event date: 9 October 1993

 

If anyone wishes to guess the nature of the event, be my guest (believe me

when I say this chart spells it out really clearly!).

 

Thanks for your time,

 

Pursottam

[Guest guest]

Pursottam wrote:

> If anyone wishes to guess the nature of the event, be my guest (believe me

> when I say this chart spells it out really clearly!).

>

 

Hi!

 

Was it accident or attack while on a short journey, "miraculous" survival ...

connected with a woman somehow...? followed by hospitalization or restriction

of movement?

 

regards

Mani

[Guest guest]

Hello Mr Purshotam,

The conclusion I have given are purely Vedic, there is no Vipreeta Rajyoga

in KP system, No Navmasha chart and even the constellation rule I had used

is for a Yogakarka in Tauars ascendant. Saturn a functional benefic in the

constellation of another FB that also in an angle is not KP. When live in

Rome live like Romans, is the main rule. On going discussion is for Taurus

ascendant and Saturn in 12th house. Put any other chart of this type , as it

will be relevant to this.

Putting another chart which has no relevancy with it , make no sense.

Any how you did not post the latitude and longitude of the place and time

from GMT. Is there any vipreet Raj yoga in the chart put up by you.

 

With regards,

Inder jit Sahni

-

Pursottam <pursottam_dabasia

<gjlist>

Thursday, April 26, 2001 1:58 PM

RE: [gjlist] Atmakaraka Rahu: Pursottam

 

 

> Om Krishnaaya Namah

>

> Hello Inder Jit,

>

> Thank you for your comments on the last chart I posted on Viparita Raja

> Yoga,

>

> > In the given example as The ascendant is Taurus 16 degree , it is surely

a

> > Taurus Vargotam Lagna, the importance goes to Venus , not to Saturn

alone.

> > Saturn is in Scorpio Navmasha and is joining his Navmasha lord in Natal,

> > further he is in the constellation of Venus , lagna lord and 6th

> > lord placed

> > in 4rth. Saturn is one of the best star in the quoted chart and

> > very strong

> > even if it is in fall in the Rashi.

> > It gives him Status and fame through Venus type things , by

> > moving out from

> > his birth place and with the help of his lover. (Saturn in

> > Scorpio Navmasha)

> >

>

> While I have read some analyses based on Krishnamurti Paddhati before,

> having never actually studied it, I never could grab the gist of how

> arguments are made in that system. So in this system, how much emphasis

does

> one place on the status of the planet itself, and how much on that of the

> Nakshatra dispositor? I have a chart, not intended as a challenge, where

> perhaps if you have the time, you could explain the principle you use to

> judge favourable stars. I'm not after the event itself, although if you

wish

> to guess, you are most welcome to do so. However, if you could explain the

> favourable status of planets as decided by their Nakshatra dispositors,

> especially for the running dashas on the date of the event, then I will be

> most grateful.

>

> 28 September 1954

> 7:26 am

> Lowell, MA, USA

> Lagna = 19* Virgo

>

> Event date: 9 October 1993

>

> If anyone wishes to guess the nature of the event, be my guest (believe me

> when I say this chart spells it out really clearly!).

>

> Thanks for your time,

>

> Pursottam

>

>

>

> gjlist-

>

>

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

 

 

_______

 

Get your free @ address at

[Guest guest]

Om Krishnaaya Namah

 

Hi Mani,

 

Many thanks for attempting the puzzle, and posting your answers to the list.

 

>

> Was it accident or attack while on a short journey, "miraculous"

> survival ...

> connected with a woman somehow...? followed by hospitalization

> or restriction

> of movement?

 

This is not the correct answer, although perhaps I should mention that the

native is a woman. I don't actually know her, so while it is possible that

maybe this happened as well as the other event (I doubt it), this is not the

answer I was looking for. Let me offer a clue however, in case you wish to

try again. Assuming you are using Fagan's Ayanamsha, and taking the Dasha to

be Jupiter-Rahu, I can understand perhaps why you came up with this

interpretation. Just take the Dasha to be Saturn-Saturn, and see what you

can come up with.

 

Good Luck!

 

Pursottam

 

 

_______

 

Get your free @ address at

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

Satya Jatakam also stresses the importance of Naksahatra dispositors

and goes a little into their useage. Perhaps I will put something

together from this later. Even Parasar says to get information about

this very important thing from other texts.

 

regards,

 

Alex J

 

 

gjlist, "Pursottam" <pursottam_dabasia> wrote:

> Om Krishnaaya Namah

>

> Hello Inder Jit,

>

> Thank you for your comments on the last chart I posted on Viparita

Raja

> Yoga,

>

> > In the given example as The ascendant is Taurus 16 degree , it is

surely a

> > Taurus Vargotam Lagna, the importance goes to Venus , not to

Saturn alone.

> > Saturn is in Scorpio Navmasha and is joining his Navmasha lord in

Natal,

> > further he is in the constellation of Venus , lagna lord and 6th

> > lord placed

> > in 4rth. Saturn is one of the best star in the quoted chart and

> > very strong

> > even if it is in fall in the Rashi.

> > It gives him Status and fame through Venus type things , by

> > moving out from

> > his birth place and with the help of his lover. (Saturn in

> > Scorpio Navmasha)

> >

>

> While I have read some analyses based on Krishnamurti Paddhati

before,

> having never actually studied it, I never could grab the gist of how

> arguments are made in that system. So in this system, how much

emphasis does

> one place on the status of the planet itself, and how much on that

of the

> Nakshatra dispositor? I have a chart, not intended as a challenge,

where

> perhaps if you have the time, you could explain the principle you

use to

> judge favourable stars. I'm not after the event itself, although if

you wish

> to guess, you are most welcome to do so. However, if you could

explain the

> favourable status of planets as decided by their Nakshatra

dispositors,

> especially for the running dashas on the date of the event, then I

will be

> most grateful.

>

> 28 September 1954

> 7:26 am

> Lowell, MA, USA

> Lagna = 19* Virgo

>

> Event date: 9 October 1993

>

> If anyone wishes to guess the nature of the event, be my guest

(believe me

> when I say this chart spells it out really clearly!).

>

> Thanks for your time,

>

> Pursottam

[Guest guest]

Om Krishnaaya Namah

 

Hi Inder Jit,

 

Many thanks for your reply.

 

> is for a Yogakarka in Tauars ascendant. Saturn a functional benefic in the

> constellation of another FB that also in an angle is not KP. When live in

> Rome live like Romans, is the main rule.

 

The reason I asked the question was that I wanted to see exactly what

factors you give priority to in judging the goodness/badness of a planet.

This wasn't done in a spirit of challenge (apologies if it came across that

way), but out of a desire to learn. While the principle of judging a

mahadasha through it's Nakshatra dispositor is sometimes mentioned, this is

rare in both (translated) classical texts and even now most modern books

give little weight to this idea. I have no problem accepting that this may

have some significance - I just feel uncomfortable using this to counteract

the many afflictions Saturn is suffering. I understand that there is a

classical basis for for this sort of Viparita Raja Yoga, because Robert once

mentioned that it is mentioned in Saravali and Jataka Tattva. I don't have

exact references however. In any case, putting the two principles together

i.e. the VRY and the benefic nakshatra dispositor, one does actually end up

with a rather strong Saturn Mahadasha, as it indeed proved to be.

 

> On going discussion is for Taurus

> ascendant and Saturn in 12th house. Put any other chart of this

> type , as it

> will be relevant to this.

 

I will do so after researching the natives' backgrounds sometime soon. With

exams drawing closer, unfortunately I'll have to limit my participation for

a little while.

 

> Putting another chart which has no relevancy with it , make no sense.

 

The only relevancy was to try and understand the basis for determining the

malefic/benefic status of a mahadasha. In this chart, a major event took

place at the beginning of Saturn Mahadasha. Saturn's Nakshatra Dispositor is

Rahu. I wanted to see the procedure you use to determine the nature of the

event through the Nakshatra a planet sits in. This chart is not relevant to

a VRY discussion. And through the normal procedures of analysis, this chart

is exceptionally clear.

 

> Any how you did not post the latitude and longitude of the place and time

> from GMT. Is there any vipreet Raj yoga in the chart put up by you.

>

 

Ooooops! I just assumed that everyone's program's enters this information

automatically. Sorry! Here's the full data:

 

28 September 1954

7:26 am

Lowell, MA, USA

Lat = 42N38

Long = 71W19

Time Zone = 5 hours west, DST 1

 

Lagna = 19* Virgo

 

Event date: 9 October 1993

 

Thanks,

 

Pursottam

[Guest guest]

Pursottam wrote:

> Om Krishnaaya Namah

>

> Hi Mani,

 

 

> This is not the correct answer,Assuming you are using Fagan's Ayanamsha, and

taking the Dasha to

> be Jupiter-Rahu, I can understand perhaps why you came up with this

> interpretation. Just take the Dasha to be Saturn-Saturn, and see what you

> can come up with.

 

Hi Old fruit!

 

 

You must have seen from my letters that I am no good at astrology at all! I open

my big mouth only when it comes to religion, philosophy, astronomy etc. I do see

contradictions in astrological arguments and write about them, but am NO

authority. I may not have even 10% of the knowledge you have!

 

I am essentially a western siderealist. I cannot interpret a la jyothish, but do

try to integrate jyothish into my methods. I´m just too old to learn jyothish -

it needs a tremendous capacity for memorizing. I do not give advice to clients:

only friends and their friends ever consult me. My advice is based on

fundamentals, far more psychological than predictive, more teaching the advaitic

principles than saying when they will get married or get a job.

 

Nevertheless these people keep coming to me: apparently my predictions came

true! These predictions were made after two pegs of whisky to get rid of

blockades, just vaguely using my peculiar methods. They are rarely long-term.

only for a year or so.

 

Since I am not sure about the ayanamsa I do not try with vargas: to understand

vargas I must be sure of them to study! I do not use dasas, but do try to fit

them. But I do not bother about the 1st two levels - they are TOO broad to fit

or predict events: the total quality of the event is enhanced or reduced by the

1st and 2nd levels, but the actual momentary events are shown by the 3rd and

lower levels. Say I win in Lotto. If the firts 2 levels are against me, even the

highest win may bring little. Some years ago 225 people won with top numbers in

Germany, but got little out of the winnings!

 

My chief tool is one I discovered years ago. It is a transit chart for when the

moon transits the natal sun each month. I gave this method out in 1963 and was

acclaimed all over, famous astrologers sent me congratulations for this

discovery, it is mentioned in many books and programmes, Robert Hand, Blackwell

&co. used it!

 

Chris has also experimented wi5h this.

 

This method does tell you about the next 4 weeks. If you know what happened, it

fits extremely well. If you are looking for an event, it fits well. A friend

gave me a date to test: it was crucial, he said. I cast the transit chart and

said, " Your life was in danger. You were mixed up with criminals and police.

You were probably on a holiday." it was true: he was on a holiday, visiting the

Eiffel tower in Paris, when an open battle started between the police and some

gangsters, he was in the midst trying to avoid the bullets!

 

I was in hospital, awaiting an operation. The date was fixed, but my transit

chart showed nothing special - but the following transit did! Sure enough, the

OP date was shifted at the last minute, I was operated after a chart that showed

Mars transiting natal Mars.

 

I was able to "rectify" some charts using this method. A friend gave me his

data, gave me two dates when he had severe car accidents. I could fit them in

only by shifting his TOB by about 9 hours forwards. His TOB was per mom. So I

told him to contact the registry and find out. It was 9:10 forwards, as I

expected!

 

I did your test chart by this method only. It was a very quick quicky. I found

Jupiter and Mars straddling the natal moon closely. So I thought of accident.

Venus had a quincunx aspect to saturn, so I thought a woman was involved. This

person had neptune and uranus straddling natal mars - a sign of long-standing

danger of accidents, IF other factors show this.

 

I shall try again:

 

Mars rules 3rd and 8th. Jupiter 4th and 9th. Straddling the moon , lord of 11th,

has to do with emotions. Danger to or loss of parent(s) or sibling, also perhaps

gain of property.

 

I might havegoofed again. But if you try this method, you may be able to add

much knowledge: my astrological knowledge is too poor to see all the

possibilities, but the method is definitely tested and proved to be correct!

 

regards

Mani

[Guest guest]

Om Krishnaaya Namah

 

Hi Mani,

 

Thanks for giving the puzzle another go!

 

> Mars rules 3rd and 8th. Jupiter 4th and 9th. Straddling the moon

> , lord of 11th,

> has to do with emotions. Danger to or loss of parent(s) or

> sibling, also perhaps

> gain of property.

>

 

Your last statement is the answer in a broad way - gain of property.

 

> lower levels. Say I win in Lotto. If the firts 2 levels are

> against me, even the

> highest win may bring little. Some years ago 225 people won with

> top numbers in

> Germany, but got little out of the winnings!

>

 

Funny that you mention this because this is in fact the event! The woman won

28 million on the Lottery. This is one case where Jyotish very explicitly

shows Dridha karma related to wealth:

 

All three trinal Lords occupy the second house of wealth, with one in

exaltation, one in own house, and one in a friendly sign. All three planets

are friendly with the Lagna Lord. The eleventh Lord is in the first, and

Jupiter, the karaka of wealth is exalted in the eleventh house of gains.

 

Saturn-Saturn was running at the time of the event. Saturn is the fifth

Lord, exalted in the second with two other strong trinal Lords. My initial

response therefore in this case was that Saturn Dasha brought major gains of

wealth through investments, gambling or other speculative activity (fifth

matters).

 

On the day of the event, Jupiter who is extremely well-disposed in the chart

(especially for wealth matter) came dancing exactly over the the natal

eleventh Lord.

 

So there we go.

 

Thanks again for plucking up the courage to post your answer!

 

Pursottam

[Guest guest]

Pursottam wrote:

 

> > Mars rules 3rd and 8th. Jupiter 4th and 9th. Straddling the moon

> > , lord of 11th,

> > has to do with emotions. Danger to or loss of parent(s) or

> > sibling, also perhaps

> > gain of property.

> >

>

> Your last statement is the answer in a broad way - gain of property.

>

>

> Funny that you mention this because this is in fact the event! The woman won

> 28 million on the Lottery. This is one case where Jyotish very explicitly

> shows Dridha karma related to wealth:

 

> All three trinal Lords occupy the second house of wealth, with one in

> exaltation, one in own house, and one in a friendly sign. All three planets

> are friendly with the Lagna Lord. The eleventh Lord is in the first, and

> Jupiter, the karaka of wealth is exalted in the eleventh house of gains.

 

Dear Pursottam,

 

Thanks for response. I am very poor at seeing yogas etc. When I see such nice

combinations I still don´t know exactly what the outcome will be. If I see a

friendly Jupiter in 11th, I wouldn´t think of winning in Lotto, for it is so

rare, but will expect "friendly relationship with children" or "religious minded

friends" or something like that!

 

This was the problem with my transit test. Very significant, but which

interpretation? Every planet has many functions by nature, ownership and

placement. So I picked on the "obvious" - only natural values. ... She might not

have suffered physical injury at that time, but the shock of winning so much

might have affected her.... Or, as you say, both effects might have been there.

 

>

> Saturn-Saturn was running at the time of the event. Saturn is the fifth

> Lord, exalted in the second with two other strong trinal Lords. My initial

> response therefore in this case was that Saturn Dasha brought major gains of

> wealth through investments, gambling or other speculative activity (fifth

> matters).

 

Broadly yes. Since you mentioned ayanamsas, here is what I get. (But I have

adjusted GJ a bit: my Lahiri uses the value for 1 jan 1900 at the given rate.

Fagan, Chandrahari, and my own mean values use the astronomical rate of 5.26.)

 

In all cases Saturn, Mercury and Venus are in 2nd. Moon is in first, as also

sun.

 

For 9 oct. 1993:

Lahiri: sat/sat/Sat/ sun

Fagan : Jup/Rahu/Moon/Merc

Chandrahari: Jup/Rahu/Mars/Rahu

Mani -1: jup/Rahu/ moon/venus (Fagan minus 5 minutes)

Mani -2: jup/rahu/mars/ketu (fagan minus 17 minutes)

 

I principally give little value to the major dasa: esp the long ones, as they

are too diffuse. Martin Gansten once agreed with me on this and gave me examples

to support. Saturn, jupiter, venus etc. have such long dasa periods that they

really tell us little. Saturn is my yogakaraka, in his period I have had many

ups and downs. BUt I was always protected and the disasters were averted. But it

was in my debilitated mercury period that I could expand - and then came the

fall! The fall of having saturn on the MC! The study of dasas MUST be at the

3rd, 4th, 5th and perhaps 6th levels for fine-tuning. Saturn/Venus hardly says

more than "generally okay" for taurus lagna.

 

Taking the above sub-subs, Lahiri is the poorest indication of a sudden and

tremendous change in prosperity. Saturn is exalted in 2nd, but owns 5th and 6th.

Enjoyment, children, sickness or health etc, but hardly wealth. Sun is in first,

but owns the house of loss, NOT gain! Saturn represents restriction, even if

benefic.

 

You thought of investments, gambling etc. Fine. But I might have thought of

children, getting out of hospital, prison or monastery! Once you pick up one

aspect, the trend of thought leads you to pick up suitable factors!

 

 

Fagan : Jupiter is a natural benefic and karaka for prosperity. Rahu is in

Jupiter´s house. Moon is in 1st and owns 11th, also prosperity, friends - I´m

sure she gained a lot of "friends" owing to this winning! Mercury is owner of

1st and is in second, a natural benefic for money.

 

Chandrahari: Jupiter and Rahu as above. But Mars comes in : owner of 8th -

"unearned wealth"! Inheritance is not the actual principle, but getting wealth

without effort. (The connection with landed property is because in the old days

cash was not very actual, most gain was from land. )

 

Mani -1: this gives moon and venus a chance. Moon as owner of 11th to gain

friends, mercury as wealth and in 2nd.

 

Mani -2: this brings mars/ketu. A minute or two shift will give Mars/merc or

Mars/venus. All three apply to material gains.

 

To find out which applies best we must ask the lady what HER feelings and

immediate actions were: celebration, buying property, buying a car....? What she

valued or felt most.

 

IMHO Lahiri loses out by miles, all the others get to the point better: one has

to experiment and find the best amongst them!

 

 

>

> On the day of the event, Jupiter who is extremely well-disposed in the chart

> (especially for wealth matter) came dancing exactly over the the natal

> eleventh Lord.

 

 

This is seldom: rarely does a transit occur on the day in question! But getting

28 million is also very seldom!

 

I wish you´d try my monthly transit method and find out more about it. Actually

there are two: the transit of the moon over natal sun and the transit of the

moon over the exact ascendant. They must confirm each other and say what happens

till the next transit. I discovered this, was at least able to use them

negatively: could say when nothing special would happen - or say the TOB was BS!

 

The transit over natal sun is now used by many astrologers, but over ascendant

is a thing I discovered last month! It is very dicey, for unless the TOB is

certain, it won´t really work. But I am trying to find a way of using it to

rectify. For this sudden events are required!

 

 

> So there we go.

 

Yessir! With your tremendous knowledge I wish you´d try my transits and

formulate their use!

 

 

> Thanks again for plucking up the courage to post your answer!

 

Dear Pursottam, courage is about the only thing I have, being a natural coward!

When it comes to astrology and I read all the controversial arguments on the

list, I get confused and a bit dejected. I believe in Occam´s Razor: that

solution that is the simplest and solves most problems is the best! What is the

use of discussing vargas if the ayanamsa is uncertain? I have values from 4

panchangs in South India: they differ by 2 degrees! I am trying to get more. All

these panchangs are used and predictions made with their values. "there is

something foul in the state of Denmark (India)" Till this thing is really

solved, I stick to the main chart, perhaps navamsa. My daughter is Taurus lagna

by Fagan, Gemini by lahiri. Though perhaps in the last degree of taurus, she is

extremely taurean, not at all gemini. Very gentle, loving, but stubborn and

reluctant to accept new ideas. One could "rectify" her birth by about 10 minutes

earlier to fit Lahiri, but that is a priori! Using Fagan or thereabouts - I am

still experimenting - I get pretty good results to suit taurus. I don´t have

dates for sudden events, which only can help us to decide. Most events have a

build-up perid, so that the dates of star and maturation get diffuse. Even

with lotto it is a problem: which date counts: the day I fill in the form, the

day I hand it in, or the day I find out that I have won?

 

Regards

Mani

[Guest guest]

Om Krishnaaya Namah

 

Hi Mani!

 

Thanks for your reply, and apologies for my delay in replying!

 

> MUST be at the

> 3rd, 4th, 5th and perhaps 6th levels for fine-tuning.

> Saturn/Venus hardly says

> more than "generally okay" for taurus lagna.

 

Whilst I agree that these dasha levels may be useful to those with

sufficient experience and Vaag bala, for the rest of us they pose problems.

Firstly, we have the uncertain Ayanamsha's. There has to be a very precise

Ayanamsha to go to the deep levels, and even if we have one that we like a

lot (like Lahiri or Fagan), the very fact that there is uncertainty makes

one uncertain in the use of the deeper levels. Secondly we have problems

with TOB's. These cause problems, and at the fifth, sixth etc. levels

anything maybe explained by minor rectifications. Then you have year

lengths, parallax vs. geocentric etc. While all of us believe very much that

our parameters are close to the truth (if not the truth itself), there is no

certainty, and at the lower dasha levels, small changes make everything

explainable. Then you also have to consider the fact that Dasha-Bhukti's

have been used for millenia with great accuracy. The majority of classics

only go down to giving results for the first two levels (the main exception

being the BPHS). Even more importantly, if Jyotish babies such as myself

take dashas down to these levels, then we get so many planets activated at

any given time, that it becomes pretty difficult to tell where the emphasis

is, and what it all means.

 

When one wishes to look at a life in general the Mahadasha's very nicely

divide the life into distinct periods, and they truly are distinct in real

life. If one then wishes to go to look at the next few years, Mahadasha's,

Bhuktis and Gochara give a pretty accurate overview of the coming period.

And of course all this can be fine-tuned through tools such as Varshaphala,

or another dasha to support/confirm analysis. I do agree that the

pratyantar-dasha can often be useful in analysis. I think (but am not

certain) that it's Sri K. N. Rao who teaches this to be a "trigger", and

this is often found to be the case.

 

>

> Taking the above sub-subs, Lahiri is the poorest indication of a

> sudden and

> tremendous change in prosperity. Saturn is exalted in 2nd, but

> owns 5th and 6th.

> Enjoyment, children, sickness or health etc, but hardly wealth.

 

I just can't agree! :-) The Lord of the fifth (investments, speculation,

gambling) exalted in the second, associated with two other strong trinal

Lords, one of which happens to be the second Lord. Krishna painted this

picture in the sky to scream "Money from speculative activities!" It's true

that Saturn rules the sixth. But it is a well-accepted Jyotish principle

that if any planet is strong and well-associated, he brings out the best

qualities of the houses he owns. Here Saturn is well associated, and is THE

planets that specifically indicates great wealth through the Lottery, not

Jupiter or Venus etc.

 

> Sun is in first,

> but owns the house of loss, NOT gain! Saturn represents

> restriction, even if

> benefic.

 

For the reason's given above, I won't go into low levels - I could explain

things very well - but this hindsight analysis doesn't do much practically,

as I don't and probably won't use the low-levels. What I must say is that I

have the 3rd level ruler to be Mercury who in your own words "is owner of

1st and is in second, a natural benefic for money."

 

>

> You thought of investments, gambling etc. Fine. But I might have

> thought of

> children, getting out of hospital, prison or monastery! Once you

> pick up one

> aspect, the trend of thought leads you to pick up suitable factors!

>

>

 

This is quite an important point and there's two ways of going about sorting

this, both of which are actually connected - first there's the 'Jyotish

way'. Jyotish offers lots and lots of different tools to get more specific.

Having seen this second house ripening, one could see if the Navamsha offers

any more hints. One could go into hora charts, and other relevant vargas.

One could also look at the Varshaphala (which though not often discussed,

happens to be an extremely powerful system in it's own right). There is a

specific Dasha for wealth, which one could look at for more confirmation and

eventually, one would get to a stage where all this needs to be weighed and

a conclusion needs to be reached. The second is the more 'Krsna says "from

Me comes knowledge, rememberance and forgetfulness" way', where ultimately

the Jyotishi realises that what s/he thinks s/he knows is minute,

teency-weency, practically non-existant and that really s/he is dependant on

Divine Grace for guidance, and knowledge. If God wants you to get the

message you will. And if He don't want you to get it, you can use as many

techniques as you like and you can stare at the chart till you faint, but

hey, you won't get anywhere. So if by divine grace one has Vaag bala, or

even Vaak siddhi, then one's use of Jyotish may be minimal, yet you'll still

end up being correct often.

 

Something that is a cross between these two "ways" is the use of omens and

signs. Sometimes there may be powerful omens that contain the answer to the

confusion raised by the chart, which come about when you are reading the

chart. If, for example, you look at this chart and you see the powerful

second house but you're confused about the directly affected area of life,

and unexpectedly "Who wants to be a millionaire?" happens to start on the TV

or something like that, then to me that's seems like a major hint from

upstairs.

 

In this case, I can now see a very strong reason for assuming that there's

something concerning kids - fifth Lord in the second of family, associated

with the second Lord, aspecting Jupiter, the karaka for kids. But uptill now

this thought had never crossed my mind (which kinda makes me feel a bit dumb

for missing this obvious indication :-)) At the time this puzzle was

presented to me, I just "knew" it was the money side that was indicated. I

didn't use any supplementary techniques, and there were no omens (that I

noticed). It would be nice if these bursts of "just knew" came in more

often. But until you mentioned it, the idea that there could be something

related to kids never occured to me, even though it's quite possible. It

makes you wonder - Did something concerning kids happen to the person? We'll

never know.

 

 

>

> IMHO Lahiri loses out by miles, all the others get to the point

> better: one has

> to experiment and find the best amongst them!

 

I completely disagree :-)

 

>

> This is seldom: rarely does a transit occur on the day in

> question! But getting

> 28 million is also very seldom!

>

 

I agree, and normally I wouldn't look for such a pattern. But I was given a

specific date, and asked to see what happened. That such a strange pattern

occured on the day of a major event suggested it was too important to

ignore.

 

> I wish you´d try my monthly transit method and find out more

> about it. Actually

 

I promise I will, after exams are over! Actually I did look at a few charts

very briefly but I had problems seeing the events. Still I will devote

proper time to the technique and let you know what I think. I wanted to ask

you some questions with regards to your use of it so far:

 

1. In analysis, do you use normal Jyotish analysis with the houses, and

planets' strengths and all the other Vedic ideas or is it based more on the

way Western astrology uses progressions i.e. progressed aspects to natal

planets and progressed aspects to progressed planets, with their natural

symbolism combined? If the latter, do you use the western aspects

(conjunction, oppositions, squares, trines, sextiles, quincunxes etc.) or

the Vedic planetary aspects?

 

2. Have you tried this idea with both a parallaxed and Geocentric Moon, or

only Geocentric?

 

Many thanks for your time and patience,

 

Pursottam

[Guest guest]

Dear Mani,

 

Please elaborate on your Transit Moon to Natal Sun Method. Do you just

use aspects and house rulership? And outer planets?

Thanks,

Robin