RE: Complexion & colour/Wendy

[Guest guest]

I think this statement was made in error, Chris, FYI;

"the Sun is usually conjunct Venus"

 

Best wishes,

Carol

[Guest guest]

Dear Wendy:

 

At 12:05 PM 4/19/01 +0800, you wrote:

>Dear Chris,

>

>One thing I think we're all forgetting is the karaka for Asc (SU) having a

>say in "beauty". In JFK's chart SU is flanked by JU & VE.

 

Sure, the situation of the Sun may enter into the mix as well, but in JFK's

case it might just be a strong Venus in its own sign. One thing that

puzzles me about some of this stuff is that apparently negative aspects are

seemingly always overruled by any positive factors. So it doesn't matter

if JFK has Saturn aspect to the Asc(albeit from Cancer), the

Jupiter/Venus/Sun strength makes him good looking. More later.

 

And being as

>objective as I can be, I wish to add that I won a beauty contest when I was

>a young girl...I have SU conjunct VE and both are in constellation of Venus.

 

Ahh, you've been holding out on us! I wouldn't put too much emphasis on

this since the Sun is usually conjunct Venus. It's Venus that matters

more. I mean, if the Sun is conjunct Venus in Aries, do you win beauty

contests?

 

chris

[Guest guest]

Dear Chris,

 

I did emphasise that both Sun and Venus were in the constellation of Venus

itself (in my case) which gives stronger than normal Venus attributes to Sun

wouldn't you say...more so (I think) than the ordinary SU/VE conjunction

which, as you pointed out, occurs frequently.

 

As regards JFK. I think my earlier statements may have been somewhat

misleading, particularly when focusing on the subtle and overlooking the

obvious, but the fact is that yes! Saturn does have a strong influence on

appearance as well as obvious bodily afflictions (health issues)...adding

height to his stature for instance...but the influence from Jupiter is

stronger because he is influencing both Asc and Asc's karaka Sun.

 

I have a good example of the importance of considering the karakas. In

"Doctrines of Suka Nadi" chapter 5, verse 8 it states: "If the 8th lord is

in the 8th house itself while the 4th lord goes to the 5th house from the

ascendant, the native will be issueless."

 

(this rule is present in my chart)

 

Verses 9 & 10 give further combinations also resulting in lack of progeny.

Then in verse 11 it states: "Even if there is obtainment of children in case

of rules given in (verses) 8, 9 and 10, such progeny will resemble a devil

or monkey in appearance."

 

Now I will admit my children are not perfect angels, but without a doubt,

both my boys are very good looking, the younger one in particular is

extremely handsome. So what is it that nullifies this rule?...can only be

the exaltation of the karaka for children, Jupiter.

 

So when considering 1st (or any house), the karaka must be considered

extremely important. I would say then in JFK's case that Sun flanked by VE &

JU is strongly beneficial in regards to his appearance...regardless of his

prikriti (which is determined from Lagna)...after all, we do get attractive

and less attractive Vata types, attractive and less attractive Pitta's,

etc...

 

And what determines this (I think), as in the case of my children, is the

karaka...surely?

 

Regards

Wendy

 

PS. So much for leaving the conversation to get back to my work...it becomes

difficult to leave a conversation once you get caught up in it :-)

 

A quick reply to Patrice while I'm here: Patrice I really haven't ever

considered the Nakshatra of lagna when judging the physical attributes,

maybe It's advisable to do so, I really can't say...perhaps someone else can

shed some more light on that.

[Guest guest]

Dear Wendy,

 

Thanks for your reply. I haven't seen mention use of Nashatras either in

regard to height, but as I wrote, there is mention of stature and height

quite often while reading them.

 

Also, I think this that I wrote is unclear:

>>>His Saturn is in Virgo, with Mercury sitting in the fourth house along

with

his Mulatrikona Sun and Jupiter. His sudden height and rapid growth began

just about exactly with Saturn/Mercury. This is using Lahiri ayanamsa.<<<

 

His Saturn is in Virgo, in the 5th house, with Mercury sitting in the fourth

house along with his Mulatrikona Sun and Jupiter.......

 

Kind of interesting to see when he got this growth spurt with regard to what

you and Chris have been writing.

 

Thanks and kind regards,

Patrice

 

PS

I'm wondering how much the Sun Mulatrikona may have to do with height in

these charts if there is some connection with Sun to Lagna.

 

My 14 year old son, also has Sun Mulatrikona, but in his first house. Just

looking at his parents, both my husband (and my husband is his natural

father) and I are tall. He has recently hit a growth spurt in his Sun/Saturn

Dasha, about to enter his Sun/Mercury. His Mercury sits also with his Sun

Mulatrikona (with Moon also) in the first house of Leo. In both charts

Jupiter plays a role as well. With my 14 year old, he receives a direct

aspect of Jupiter on his first house (Jupiter in 7th). It will be

interesting to see if he grows quickly now, or waits until older as his

brother did. It would seem he will grow in height now.

 

It's interesting, and you got me thinking and noticing these relationships

to growth also with Dasha. Thanks...

[Guest guest]

Wendy:

 

>So when considering 1st (or any house), the karaka must be considered

>extremely important. I would say then in JFK's case that Sun flanked by VE &

>JU is strongly beneficial in regards to his appearance...

 

I really dont' see how you can say this. Logically, you wouldn't give a

second thought to Sun conjunct Venus if it were in any old sign. Sun is

conjunct Venus what?, 2/3 of the time or more? But JFK had his Venus in

Taurus, conjunct Jupiter which was aspecting the Asc. Where the Sun is

doesn't matter, at least in any significant sense. It's just a logical

conclusion. Now, I'm not denying the importance of karakas here and the

Sun does happen to be the Asc/face karaka. Unfortunately for us, it's

conjunct the karaka of beauty so often that it's almost negligible in its

importance. So it lends nothing to the analysis. Just my opinion, feel

free to disagree.

 

Here's another chart to chew on. Sophia Loren, Italian film star. I

thought her chart would be good to look at because she's not blonde or

fair, even by Italian standards. (Sep 20 1934, 2.10 pm CET Rome, Italy --

lagna: 12Sg36). Asc is empty and unaspected. Lagnesh Jupiter is in the

11th Libra aspected by 8H Mars in Cancer and 2L Saturn from 2H. Saturn is

tightly conjunct Moon so that might lend something to Jupiter, but it's

aspect is a mile wide here and doesn't begin to address the issue. So

basically we've got nothing there except a couple of weak contacts by sign

dispositorships of Venus and Moon. I'm think most would agree that they

don't amount to much. But the Moon is in a 2* conjunction with 2L Saturn in

the 2nd house (darker complexion?) in Capricorn also conjunct Rahu. So

that brings up a couple of possibilities. Perhaps the 2nd house can confer

beauty by virtue of the Moon house placement and conjunction with 2L. In

any event, the 2nd house factors look far more promising that looking at

aspects effects on lagnesh Jupiter.

 

So we have to go to the navamsha to find anything solid: Cancer rises with

Mercury there aspected by Mars (!) and lagnesh Moon is conjunct Venus in

the 3rd -- Virgo! It is also conjunct Saturn but negatives seem to be

washed away in the astro beauty contest as long as positive factors obtain.

So that "counts", but it ought to leave us feeling a little uneasy as

Venus in virgo is supposed to cause problems.

 

But here's the real kicker: Loren has her Venus in Leo/9th in a one degree

conjunction with Neptune! I can see all your eyes collectively rolling in

their sockets but Venus with Neptune is a classic signature for beauty as

well. And we haven't even talked about house placement as Dave Birr has

suggested. Perhaps house placements such as the 9th also play a role here.

 

Obviously, there a multiple factors here at work, but I would put the

Venus-Neptune factor at the top, with the nav lagnesh Moon conj Venus in

2nd place. 2nd house remains a matter of interesting speculation at this

point.

 

heretically yours,

 

Chris

[Guest guest]

Chris,

 

Perhaps Sophia Loren's chart was the wrong choice for your argument as Venus

in 9th is very much connected to ascendant, being dispositor of Asc lord.

The classics are full of references to the significance of Asc lord's

dispositor...

 

Sun also is dispositor of Venus...a strong Venus connection with both Asc

lord and karaka of Asc.

 

But this is where I must leave it now Chris.

 

Best Wishes

Wendy

[Guest guest]

Postscript to previous post:

 

A comparison perhaps to clarify...I have ascendant lord's dispositor Mercury

exalted in 9th, and (I believe) it's fair to say that the qualities of

Mercury are clearly evident in my personal traits (attributes). It's more

than just having a strong Mercury, it's part of my innate nature, which is

seen from the first house. So with Sophia Loren...beauty is very much part

of her innate nature.

 

The mention of Venus and Moolatrikona Sun (in Venus's own constellation) in

my chart cannot be construed to mean that SU/VE in all instances gives the

same results...that's ridiculous! Each horoscope is unique and must be

judged on it's own merits.

 

Wendy

[Guest guest]

Wendy:

 

First to clarify an error of fact I made that Carol pointed out: Venus

isn't conjunct Sun "most" of the time as I had so eagerly written. I don't

have a figure handy, but I think the Sun-Venus conjunction probably occurs

1/3 of the time. Venus can move no further than 72* away from the Sun. So

that strengthens the role of the conjunction of Venus with Asc karaka Sun

somewhat, but not significantly to my mind.

 

At 01:35 AM 4/20/01 +0800, you wrote:

>Chris,

>

>Perhaps Sophia Loren's chart was the wrong choice for your argument as Venus

>in 9th is very much connected to ascendant, being dispositor of Asc lord.

>The classics are full of references to the significance of Asc lord's

>dispositor...

 

Yeah, I'm aware of the importance of role of lagnesh's dispositor. It's

important for sure. But if you think about all the permutations you allow

by this dispositor rule, it really waters down the whole notion. Think

about it. If we have a chart of an attractive person already --remember

here nobody has bothered to examine the chart of a plain or unattractive

person yet as a control -- then all we have to do is to find some

connection of lagna with either Moon or Venus. If you grant aspects of

either planet to the Asc as being the causal primary factor, then you've

already included 4 signs out of 12 possible! (this includes; conj/oppos of

Moon and Venus. Right there, you're likely accounted for more attractive

people than there really are in the world. Sure attractiveness is a tough

one to define, but we'll go with "consensus" views.

 

Now if you include lagnesh, whatever it might be, then that's another 4 out

of 12 charts or so that would satisfy the criteria right -- Moon or Venus

have to be either conjunct or opposed the lagnesh. We would reduce the

possible numbers of hits in cases where Moon or Venus itself are lagnesh.

So that's a little less than 4 out of 12 charts qualify as potentially

"beautiful". Now do we really want to cast our logical nets further out to

sea to include dispositors of lagnesh? That's another big chunk of charts

again. When you add up all the possibilities that would end up counting as

attractive, you'd be over 100% of all charts! Everyone would be beautiful

(but we already knew that). So much for logical rigour.

 

 

The only way to do this is to compare some charts of widely known

attractive people with ordinary looking people. Otherwise, it's just too

easy to find *some* factor that can "explain" attractiveness.

 

The advantage of the Venus-Neptune conjunction is that it is comparatively

rare, unlike Venus- or Moon-ruled lagnesh dispositors.

 

just trying to see the light,

 

Chris

 

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Chris,

 

As more input for your thoughts on Neptune. It's interesting with respect to

my chart. I too have Venus in Virgo along with Saturn and Mars in my second

house. Also Moon in Scorpio, along with my Sun, and Lagna is Leo. After

beginning with Jyotish, I wondered about this for obvious reasons. I had

thought it was Jupiter's blessings from the 8th house in his own sign Pisces

that must have improved things and blessed me.

 

Neptune is in a close conjunction with Venus in the second house. I am

DEFINITELY not anything like the great Sofia (and blonde to boot), but I did

model quite a lot in my teens and twenties and a bit in my thirties. And I

don't suffer any of what I might have thought possible with these placements

of Venus and Moon. I did have braces not too long ago for a short while,

which were applied right on with Dashas Venus/Sun/Saturn/Mars. With this

second house placement, from what you've said, perhaps this too improved my

situation. Also, in the second house, perhaps this shows the income related

to this.

 

Best regards,

Patrice

[Guest guest]

Two Unattractive natives:

 

Sep 1 1896

16.00

Calcutta, India

 

Native has Asc lord's dispositor VE debilitated in 9th, in retrograde motion

and weakened further by being too close to edge of sign...significations of

Venus (beauty etc) obviously weakened.

=========================================

 

Jan 18 1994

2.00 AM

Sunderland, England

 

Native has Asc lord Venus inimically placed in 2nd, aspected by Mars &

Saturn.

 

Don't have charts of any more unattractive people, sorry.

 

You wrote

=========

The only way to do this is to compare some charts of widely known

attractive people with ordinary looking people. Otherwise, it's just too

easy to find *some* factor that can "explain" attractiveness.

[Guest guest]

Apologies:

 

2nd natives year of birth is 1944 (not 1994)

============================================

 

 

Two Unattractive natives:

 

Sep 1 1896

16.00

Calcutta, India

 

Native has Asc lord's dispositor VE debilitated in 9th, in retrograde motion

and weakened further by being too close to edge of sign...significations of

Venus (beauty etc) obviously weakened.

=========================================

 

Jan 18 1994

2.00 AM

Sunderland, England

 

Native has Asc lord Venus inimically placed in 2nd, aspected by Mars &

Saturn.

 

Don't have charts of any more unattractive people, sorry.

 

You wrote

=========

The only way to do this is to compare some charts of widely known

attractive people with ordinary looking people. Otherwise, it's just too

easy to find *some* factor that can "explain" attractiveness.

 

 

 

gjlist-

 

 

 

Your use of is subject to

[Guest guest]

Chris,

 

At the risk of getting into a puritanical argument here, I have to say that

if you must resort to the outer planets in your delineation then you're not

really practicing jyotish as it is, but rather some sort of Vedic/Western

system.

 

Wendy

 

You wrote

=========

But here's the real kicker: Loren has her Venus in Leo/9th in a one degree

conjunction with Neptune! I can see all your eyes collectively rolling in

their sockets but Venus with Neptune is a classic signature for beauty as

well.

[Guest guest]

Wendy:

 

Guilty as charged. I don't think I'm resorting to them, so much as finding

a more appealing solution. As I see it, the indicators for attractiveness

in jyotish aren't compelling enough as I understand them now; they seem

non-specific. They do not sufficiently discriminate between, for instance,

attractiveness and unattractiveness. I think it goes back to the fact that

much of jyotish is a mishmash of rules and practices that astrologers can

pick and choose from as they wish. The height question is typical here,

where there is no clear agreement on which signs are tall, etc. I'll be the

first one to admit that I'm not as fully versed in jyotish as you are and

many others on the list. It's just that the sort of explanations I've seen

so far seem a bit haphazard at times. Maybe with experience, I'll see the

nuances better. For now, I'll seek out parsimony where I can find it.

 

heretically yours,

 

Chris

 

just that theyAt 11:00 AM 4/20/01 +0800, you wrote:

>Chris,

>

>At the risk of getting into a puritanical argument here, I have to say that

>if you must resort to the outer planets in your delineation then you're not

>really practicing jyotish as it is, but rather some sort of Vedic/Western

>system.

>

>Wendy

>

>You wrote

>=========

>But here's the real kicker: Loren has her Venus in Leo/9th in a one degree

>conjunction with Neptune! I can see all your eyes collectively rolling in

>their sockets but Venus with Neptune is a classic signature for beauty as

>well.

>

>

>

>gjlist-

>

>

>

>Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, what about the arudha lagna and the arudha of the second house,

since it seems like it's other people who decide what's attractive or

not? Angie