Mani and meat-eating

[Guest guest]

Namaste Das, Mani, and everyone,

 

Well, Das may have love and reverence for Mani (which I do too, having had

some very cordial private emails with him in the past), and Mani may get a

tear in his eyes when reading Das' accolades, but I just have to say that I

had a tear in my eyes also when Mani went on and on talking about how

vegetarianism is some kind of cultural or religious bias, and that eating

meat was just OK to do.

 

My position is like this: somebody may be Advaita, somebody else may be

Vaishnava, and somebody else may just not give a damn, and prefer to be

agnostic or atheist, but the fact is that there just has to be a standard

somewhere. Personalists and impersonalist can go on arguing ad infinitum,

about their philosophies, and in the end we may end up in a comfortable

camaraderie in something like a mutual adoration society, but I have to

tell you, that meat-eating is not for civilized human society, regardless

of what your religion or lack of it is. Why? Please consider the following:

 

* Animals are high up on the evolutionary ladder, and next to humans out of

8, 400,000 species of life that are mentioned in the Vedic Puranas.

 

* If I pinch a human being, he will feel pain and protest; if I pinch an

animal, he will also feel pain, yet may or may not protest; if I pinch a

tree, it will not will feel pain, nor will any species of life whose

sensual perception and consciousness is not as evolved as that of animals

and humans. Does it not become clear that someone's choice to eat flesh

causes undo pain to innocent creatures who cannot defend themselves? If I

take a calf away from its mother, the mother cow will cry (and you can see

her tears). If you go to a slaughter house where animals are killed for

consumption, you will hear them wailing in fear and crying in agony. Do

you get the same response if you pick an apple from a tree and eat it, or

if you harvest wheat and make bread out of it?

 

* Thus, the simple austerity of avoiding meat-eating, is not a matter of

this or that religion. It is a matter of humanity, and sensitivity, and

just plain giving up the impulses of the tongue and belly so that harmless

animals can live without fear and pain. Is that not comprehensible? No

amount of philosophical erudition can impress me, when out of the same

mouth, the person who speaks, makes some pale attempt to rationalize animal

slaughter as being part of some religious culture, or its avoidance is part

of some religious bias. It has nothing to do with religion, I say

again. It has to do with kindness, compassion, and love for those

creatures who depend on humans to be their shepherds, and not their

assassins. I usually avoid this topic of argument, because it makes me

real angry. I tried to avoid a hot rebuttal to Mani's remarks about it

being OK to eat meat, but left it, so as to avoid the heat of

controversy. But now that we have a mutual admiration society on this

list, with appreciations for one and all, while the whole subject was left

vaguely addressed, I just have to say something. Mani and Das, I love and

respect you both, but if I slap you in the face, you will feel pain, you

will feel bewildered, and you may even lose consciousness (because you

don't know how hard I can slap). So don't tell me that everything is OK

with the slaughter of animals, when those tortured animals whose fate it is

do be your pot roast tonight, experience more fear and pain than you could

imagine in your worst nightmare.

 

That's all I have to say on this.

 

Best wishes,

Robert

 

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

760 NW Broken Arrow Rd.

Bend, OR. 97701-9037

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk. rk

[Guest guest]

Dear Robert,

 

First let me say that I am speaking without any animosity and I don't wish

to create any more ill feelings...I genuinely hope we can get past that! But

surely a man's diet has more to do with his cultural conditioning than his

righteousness.

 

In the words of Christ; "It's not what goes in the mouth, but what comes out

of it that defiles"

 

Regards

Wendy

 

 

Robert A. Koch [rkoch]

Tuesday, March 13, 2001 10:38 AM

gjlist

[gjlist] Mani and meat-eating

 

 

Namaste Das, Mani, and everyone,

 

Well, Das may have love and reverence for Mani (which I do too, having had

some very cordial private emails with him in the past), and Mani may get a

tear in his eyes when reading Das' accolades, but I just have to say that I

had a tear in my eyes also when Mani went on and on talking about how

vegetarianism is some kind of cultural or religious bias, and that eating

meat was just OK to do.

 

My position is like this: somebody may be Advaita, somebody else may be

Vaishnava, and somebody else may just not give a damn, and prefer to be

agnostic or atheist, but the fact is that there just has to be a standard

somewhere. Personalists and impersonalist can go on arguing ad infinitum,

about their philosophies, and in the end we may end up in a comfortable

camaraderie in something like a mutual adoration society, but I have to

tell you, that meat-eating is not for civilized human society, regardless

of what your religion or lack of it is. Why? Please consider the

following:

 

* Animals are high up on the evolutionary ladder, and next to humans out of

8, 400,000 species of life that are mentioned in the Vedic Puranas.

 

* If I pinch a human being, he will feel pain and protest; if I pinch an

animal, he will also feel pain, yet may or may not protest; if I pinch a

tree, it will not will feel pain, nor will any species of life whose

sensual perception and consciousness is not as evolved as that of animals

and humans. Does it not become clear that someone's choice to eat flesh

causes undo pain to innocent creatures who cannot defend themselves? If I

take a calf away from its mother, the mother cow will cry (and you can see

her tears). If you go to a slaughter house where animals are killed for

consumption, you will hear them wailing in fear and crying in agony. Do

you get the same response if you pick an apple from a tree and eat it, or

if you harvest wheat and make bread out of it?

 

* Thus, the simple austerity of avoiding meat-eating, is not a matter of

this or that religion. It is a matter of humanity, and sensitivity, and

just plain giving up the impulses of the tongue and belly so that harmless

animals can live without fear and pain. Is that not comprehensible? No

amount of philosophical erudition can impress me, when out of the same

mouth, the person who speaks, makes some pale attempt to rationalize animal

slaughter as being part of some religious culture, or its avoidance is part

of some religious bias. It has nothing to do with religion, I say

again. It has to do with kindness, compassion, and love for those

creatures who depend on humans to be their shepherds, and not their

assassins. I usually avoid this topic of argument, because it makes me

real angry. I tried to avoid a hot rebuttal to Mani's remarks about it

being OK to eat meat, but left it, so as to avoid the heat of

controversy. But now that we have a mutual admiration society on this

list, with appreciations for one and all, while the whole subject was left

vaguely addressed, I just have to say something. Mani and Das, I love and

respect you both, but if I slap you in the face, you will feel pain, you

will feel bewildered, and you may even lose consciousness (because you

don't know how hard I can slap). So don't tell me that everything is OK

with the slaughter of animals, when those tortured animals whose fate it is

do be your pot roast tonight, experience more fear and pain than you could

imagine in your worst nightmare.

 

That's all I have to say on this.

 

Best wishes,

Robert

 

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

760 NW Broken Arrow Rd.

Bend, OR. 97701-9037

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk. rk

 

 

 

gjlist-

 

 

 

Your use of is subject to

[Guest guest]

Robert wrote

============

* If I pinch a human being, he will feel pain and protest; if I pinch an

animal, he will also feel pain, yet may or may not protest; if I pinch a

tree, it will not will feel pain, nor will any species of life whose

sensual perception and consciousness is not as evolved as that of animals

and humans. Does it not become clear that someone's choice to eat flesh

causes undo pain to innocent creatures who cannot defend themselves? If I

take a calf away from its mother, the mother cow will cry (and you can see

her tears). If you go to a slaughter house where animals are killed for

consumption, you will hear them wailing in fear and crying in agony. Do

you get the same response if you pick an apple from a tree and eat it, or

if you harvest wheat and make bread out of it?

 

MY reply

========

The fact is Robert that plants DO FEEL the same terror and pain that we of

the animal kingdom do...reliable scientific tests have proved this...the

difference is that we do not have receptors sufficiently fine-tuned to be

able to hear their screams. Every living organism feels, has it's own

intelligence. Is killing more acceptable if we're unaware of the cabbage

screaming as it's dropped into a pot of boiling water.

 

Of course I'm being more than a little facetious here but I think the most

important thing in all of this is one's intention...it has also been shown

that plants respond even to our intentions.

 

We astrologers should be the last to judge the actions of others and we're

certainly not evolved enough to judge their intentions.

 

Regards

Wendy

[Guest guest]

Everyone,

I have worked in the natural foods industry for 14 years and before

that I was a professional chef for 12 years in 5 star resorts and Hotels,

so I have thought a great deal about food in my short life. In addition

to that I lost both of my Parents to colon cancer and that got my

attention real fast. That was over 20 years ago and it set me on a quest

to change my own diet and life style. I think that Robert hits on some

very important points in his email, but I have to ask this question. Do

we approach this as an all or nothing proposition? I think that the

Vegetarian ideal is the standard and worth striving for, but does

everyone arrive there instantly,over time or even arrive there at all? I

have gone well over a year as a vegetarian a number of times. The problem

I have is that I don't do well with dairy products and not a whole lot

better with soy. I don't do well on high glycemic carbohydrates as the

mainstay of my diet because of some blood sugar problems. So I've been

known to eat fish , not because of some lust or for gourmandizing, but

because my energy is shot to hell and yes, some fish or chicken makes a

huge difference. What I am trying to say is not everyone makes the

transition instantly or smoothly. Someone who consciously (acknowledges

that a sentient being suffered and died) and eats animal flesh once or

twice a month and is struggling to be a vegetarian, is a whole lot

different than someone who eats meat once or twice a day and doesn't give

a rip. I have been vegetarian now (strict) for about a month and I am

trying to find digestable sources of protein. I do eat eggs, but sort of

detest them as they are obviously tamasic. If anyone knows of some

remedial measures that would enable me to encorporate more dairy in my

diet please let me know. David Frawley says that Moon in Virgo makes

dairy hard to digest and I have that placement. I love the Vegetarian

Ideal and after reading "Diet For A New America" over 10 years ago I

really feel for these suffering animals, even the ones that get good

lives before being killed. The bottom line is that we can uphold the

Vegetarian Ideal and be patient and compassionate towards those who

struggle to attain that Ideal. Namaste, Jeff

[Guest guest]

Dear Wendy,

 

At 11:43 AM 3/13/01 +0800, you wrote:

 

>Robert wrote

>============

>* If I pinch a human being, he will feel pain and protest; if I pinch an

>animal, he will also feel pain, yet may or may not protest; if I pinch a

>tree, it will not will feel pain, nor will any species of life whose

>sensual perception and consciousness is not as evolved as that of animals

>and humans. Does it not become clear that someone's choice to eat flesh

>causes undo pain to innocent creatures who cannot defend themselves? If I

>take a calf away from its mother, the mother cow will cry (and you can see

>her tears). If you go to a slaughter house where animals are killed for

>consumption, you will hear them wailing in fear and crying in agony. Do

>you get the same response if you pick an apple from a tree and eat it, or

>if you harvest wheat and make bread out of it?

>

>MY reply

>========

>The fact is Robert that plants DO FEEL the same terror and pain that we of

>the animal kingdom do...reliable scientific tests have proved this...the

>difference is that we do not have receptors sufficiently fine-tuned to be

>able to hear their screams. Every living organism feels, has it's own

>intelligence. Is killing more acceptable if we're unaware of the cabbage

>screaming as it's dropped into a pot of boiling water.

 

I grew up in San Francisco, where you could go to the waterfront when the

crab boats would come in. You could hear the screams of the crabs when

they dropped them into that big vat of boiling water. Yes, your cabbage

analogy is a bit ludicrous. Anyway, the first thing that comes to mind, is

eat foods that do not require killing anything. The life cycles of

practically all vegetables and plants are already over when you harvest

them. You are not killing anything, when, for example you pick the fruit

or harvest the grain.

 

>Of course I'm being more than a little facetious here but I think the most

>important thing in all of this is one's intention...it has also been shown

>that plants respond even to our intentions.

 

They welcome your picking their fruits, leaves, or flowers. They offer it

to you. If you do not take it, it will fall from their limbs to the

ground, and get re-cycled. This is natural.

 

>We astrologers should be the last to judge the actions of others and we're

>certainly not evolved enough to judge their intentions.

 

Wendy, I do appreciate your thoughts and your taking the time to respond to

what I wrote. But no one is judging anyone here. I was stating my outrage

and horror, that people think animal slaughter is the same as shredding

carrots for your salad, or stir-frying your vegetables. I think if you had

to personally hunt and slaughter your own meat, from animals in the

out-back, you would quickly lose your appetite for whatever you're eating.

 

Best wishes,

Robert

 

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

760 NW Broken Arrow Rd.

Bend, OR. 97701-9037

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk. rk

[Guest guest]

Wendy,

I hope you read the e-mail I just sent. You quoted the Scripture that

has

Christ saying, "it's not what goes into

a man's mouth that defiles him, but what proceeds out of it." He means of

course his words. In the context that Jesus said this, he was referring

to the religious hypocrisy of the Pharisees in their custom of hand

washing and self-righteously judging others who did not follow their man

made (not God revealed) tradition. The emphasis is on words that reveal

the condition of the heart. The rest of this scripture say's that

murder,lust, blasphemy, etc. proceed out of the heart and out of the

abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. Jesus is not teaching that its

okay to just eat any old thing, he is contrasting it with a larger issue.

I have spent time with Greek and Russian Orthodox Monks who do not eat

meat. Technically they do because they are allowed fish, but I have read

dozens of stories of their Saints and holy ascetics who even gave up fish

and sometimes dairy as well. There is a relationship between diet and

spiritual progress, between diet and transcendence. When Christ was

tested in the wilderness he fasted 40 days and when he returned he

manifested power that the world had never seen. Vedic Astrology is based

on the law of karma and the obvious karmic connection between eating a

sentient being who suffered so you can eat it is self-evident. If we eat

meat we should acknowledge that it is due to our own weakness and not

because there is anything wrong with the Vegetarian Ideal. It was after

all the diet of Paradise.

Namaste, Jeff

[Guest guest]

Robert wrote

============

Wendy, I do appreciate your thoughts and your taking the time to respond to

what I wrote. But no one is judging anyone here. I was stating my outrage

and horror, that people think animal slaughter is the same as shredding

carrots for your salad, or stir-frying your vegetables. I think if you had

to personally hunt and slaughter your own meat, from animals in the

out-back, you would quickly lose your appetite for whatever you're eating.

 

Dear Robert,

I'm not disagreeing with you. I also am repulsed by the cruel slaughter of

animals. However Robert the fact is that many compassionate, righteous

people struggle to maintain a purely vegetarian diet...usually because of

medical reasons...lactose intolerance, inability to digest legumes, etc. The

(real) point I'm hoping to make is "the intention of the would be

vegetarian" And I say again, we do not have the capacity to judge another's

intentions.

 

Peace Robert,

Wendy

[Guest guest]

Namaste Jeff,

 

You wrote:

 

I love the Vegetarian

>Ideal and after reading "Diet For A New America" over 10 years ago I

>really feel for these suffering animals, even the ones that get good

>lives before being killed. The bottom line is that we can uphold the

>Vegetarian Ideal and be patient and compassionate towards those who

>struggle to attain that Ideal. Namaste, Jeff

 

I appreciate your comments. Yes, certainly, for some, perhaps many people,

the transition is slow. You are talking genetics here also, blood types,

and hereditary or cultural factors that bear upon how, and to what extent,

one can be a vegetarian. I am 53, and have been vegetarian since I was 22

-- not so much from a dietary point of view at first, but because I had the

unfortunate experience of sleeping in my car at a gas station, one night

while travelling on the road (at age 19), when a truck filled with animals

doomed for slaughter, pulled up and parked next to me. They were wailing

and crying all night, I could not sleep. They knew where they were going,

and no one's "intention" could convince them that it was a charitable act

that they had to be slaughtered. After becoming a monk in the Hare Krsna

movement in 1970, I once went to a slaughter house to see, feel, smell, and

in other ways have firsthand experience of what the animals

experienced. No, this is not the same as picking fruit from a tree, and

making a salad. Have you ever pulled up aside a truck carrying chickens

doomed for slaughter? They are packed in a one foot by one foot crate,

maybe 20 in there at a time. Where is the humanity in that? They are half

dead and tortured even before they get to the slaughter house.

 

Anyway, yes, I agree with you, that in certain circumstances, such as those

with fire planets and signs strong in the chart, or with blood sugar

problems such as you mention, a gradual evolution to the pure vegetarian

ideal may be needed. Keep your sights fixed on the goal, however. I will

leave you with the following very interesting factoids:

 

* A Sanskrit word for "meat" is "Mamsah". Mam means "me", and sah means

"him". Thus the word Mamsah indicates that I may enjoy him in this

lifetime; but in the next lifetime, he (the animal) will have the

opportunity to enjoy me (i.e. I take birth as an animal in order to know

what it is like to be slaughtered by my human brothers, who want to eat my

flesh).

 

* In the Bhisma Parva of the Mahabharata, Sri Bhismadeva tells Arjuna, that

a person who never in the course of a lifetime, eats the flesh of animals,

will be promoted to the Brahma loka (highest heavenly planet) after death,

even if he performs no other form of sadhana or purificatory rites. The

abode of Naraka (hell) , however, awaits those who are indiscriminate in

the matter of eating the flesh of animals.

 

Best wishes,

Robert

 

=====================================

Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

760 NW Broken Arrow Rd.

Bend, OR. 97701-9037

Phone: 541-318-0248

visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

rk. rk

[Guest guest]

Dear Friends,

 

Let me also put my opinion here. For me a human being is a human being. I

look at his heart and his thinking not at what he is wearing or eating.

 

Brahmins in India, those belonging to Bengal, Almora (U.P. Hills) and

Kashmir, all eat meat. That does not turn them into non-brahmins.

 

It is the inner quality of soul, which permeates in his actions and deeds,

and that according to my humble opinion is what is important.

 

with best regards,

 

Manoj

_______________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

[Guest guest]

Hello Jeff,

 

> Someone who consciously (acknowledges that a sentient being

> suffered and died) and eats animal flesh once or twice a month and

> is struggling to be a vegetarian, is a whole lot different than

> someone who eats meat once or twice a day and doesn't give a rip.

 

The worse offender in this case is the person who eats the meat with

knowledge that he is eating a sentient being who died. This person is

the one who suffers the worst karma. The latter is like an ignorant

sudra who sins unwittingly while the other is like a wise Brahmin who

commits the crime with full knowledge of its import.

 

My Grandmother is a very religious lady, she feels great guilt if she

doesn't feed the pigeons that live on her balcony daily. At the same

time she cooks chickens, turkeys, fish, beef, and all meats several

times a day, and sees no correlation between the food and the living

creatures. You could never ever convince her to kill the pigeons.

 

The worst offenders are the slaughterers of animals, the next the

butchers, the next the cooks, but by the time the food arrives on the

dinner table, it is so far removed in look and qualities from a

living animal that you cannot hold the consumer that guilty.

Especially in a culture that sees nothing wrong with it.

 

But if you really do see animals as almost human with emotions, etc,

and you look at every piece of meat as one of these sentient beings,

and you still eat it... then I think there will be reprecussions.

 

Regards,

 

Alex J

[Guest guest]

--- Manoj Pathak <manojpathak wrote:

> Dear Friends,

>

> Let me also put my opinion here. For me a human

> being is a human being. I

> look at his heart and his thinking not at what he is

> wearing or eating.

>

> Brahmins in India, those belonging to Bengal, Almora

> (U.P. Hills) and

> Kashmir, all eat meat. That does not turn them into

> non-brahmins.

>

> It is the inner quality of soul, which permeates in

> his actions and deeds,

> and that according to my humble opinion is what is

> important.

>

> with best regards,

>

> Manoj

 

 

Dear Manoj

 

Vanakkam

 

Of course, eating meat may not change a brahmin as a

non-brahmin in this birth.

 

But our upanishads say intake of satwick food makes a

person satwick in his thinking. Thinking makes the man

to do his karmas. Karmas leave their impressions on

the soul. Your personality is nothing but the result

of your impressions. If a person is the bundle of

tamasic nature and tamasic impressions( the soul or

your heart carries), you will agree how he will behave

though he born in a brahmin family.

 

The upanishads do say the person really want to

realize himself he should avoid tamasic food. The

ultimate aim of a person is his self realization.

 

Taking satwick food will assist u to drive your mind

in satwick thinking ultimately will benefit you.

 

This is my humble opinion and not hurt anybody's

feelings.

 

regards

 

ravindramani

 

 

 

 

Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.

http://auctions./

[Guest guest]

Namaste Dear List,

 

Diet theories are strong because diet is so personal, and each our own right

to decide.

 

I've heard this argument before, but always wonder about the thinking of

those commenting plants and animals are equally 'slaughtered'. Is this

argument put forth so that someone choosing to eat

animals feels it is the same thing? In that rational, is it believed

that somehow lessons any suffering anywhere? Why still must the animals join

in the suffering?

 

And the exposure of a number of people to this through their actions

required to raise and slaughter the animals, to experience the clear

suffering on the part of the animals, not

intellectualizing or using something other than our own beings to see and

hear their suffering. ("We teach a child not to step on a butterfly for the

sake of the child...")

 

Their are so many now common arguments on this, from the baby in the crib

seeing a banana or carrot and squirrel example, and the person walking in

the woods

example, does anyone get hunger pains at seeing squirrels, cats, rabbits,

dogs, mouths start to water,salivate, no, to the more intellectual

arguments.

 

Then the unbelievable amount of reasons against meat politically and

ecologically, and sharing our earth with others...

 

It takes so little time to find out the truths about animal husbandry

and farming these days, and the results of eating meat and dairy on our

health, truths that are accurate today, even if one doesn't want to think

that these things were always so. Do some of you remember the 'Beyond Beef

Campaign' with Jeremy Rifkkin? Or Physicians for Responsible Medicine, a

great group based in DC.

 

Jeffrey, as far as finding digestible protein, protein is in all kinds of

vegetables and many other sources. Even the 'lowly' potato is 11 percent

protein. We need, I think 9 percent, hence the Irish history with the

potato, if I'm remembering the exact science of all this, which one does not

need to do to stay healthy.

 

Jeffrey, also in response to your question on dairy, which is another can of

worms perhaps, but one does not need to have dairy at all and it has lots of

negative effects on the body for a lot of people, some would say all, so you

may be fortunate to have a body telling you not to eat it. Rather than

finding some way around it, there are many other things available to

maintain health nutritionally, and they are simple actually. It doesn't need

to be a job or a huge difference in time.

 

To bring this back to Jyotish, is it obvious I would be writing this with

Mars, Libra, and Saturn in Virgo in the second house, with Jupiter in direct

aspect from the eighth.

 

Health and peace to all,

Patrice

[Guest guest]

Correction:

 

Mars, Venus and Saturn in Virgo, second house, with Jupiter in direct

aspect from the eighth.

 

It's very late here, best regards,

Patrice

[Guest guest]

Sorry!

 

Correction to last post Mark 7: 18-20

 

My apologies

Wendy

[Guest guest]

Om Krishnaaya Namah

 

Hello Everybody,

 

> movement in 1970, I once went to a slaughter house to see, feel,

> smell, and

> in other ways have firsthand experience of what the animals

> experienced. No, this is not the same as picking fruit from a tree, and

 

Exactly. Anybody who doesn't feel anything from words should try visiting a

slaughterhouse. I personally can't stand meat at all, anywhere, but the

Vegetarian Society once brought a Video with a lot of secret filming to our

school, and it was absolutely unbelievable. Having been brought in dreadful

conditions, the animals could be seen screaming, crying, running, panicking

and just trying to get away. Their murderers would sometimes kick them

violently back to place. Their pain, both physical and mental before they're

about to slaughtered must be unimaginable. Eventually when they're hung up,

they're still crying and screaming. Everything about the business is just

disgusting and sickening and degrading to human society. Of course you'll

get the "civilised murderers" tell you in open that everthing is done very

humanely (humane killing?) and that animals are stunned beforehand etc.

Rubbish! The stunning thing misses the right point a lot of the time,

causing even more pain. In any case, if the unimaginable pain and distress

seen on the animals faces, and the violent treatment they receive is now

termed "humane", God only knows where human "civilisation" is headed.

 

My Point? If you need convincing, visit a slaughterhouse.

 

Pursottam

[Guest guest]

Dear Robert,

 

Very admirable post - on a personal note, I do admire those (white English)

people here who turn to Vegetarianism purely out of their own convictions

(not to harm animals), rather than say myself who only turned Vegetarian due

to my mother's (Hindu) influence, as well as the horrific pictures painted

by what we may become if we eat meat (reincarnation) - therefore, the

afore-mentioned people are in fact more worthy for their reason behind their

decision.

 

And thank you for bringing out it is a question of humanity, not religion.

 

Respectfully - Sateesh.

 

========

 

 

 

 

 

-

"Robert A. Koch" <rkoch

<gjlist>

13 March 2001 02:38

[gjlist] Mani and meat-eating

 

 

: Namaste Das, Mani, and everyone,

:

: Well, Das may have love and reverence for Mani (which I do too, having had

: some very cordial private emails with him in the past), and Mani may get a

: tear in his eyes when reading Das' accolades, but I just have to say that

I

: had a tear in my eyes also when Mani went on and on talking about how

: vegetarianism is some kind of cultural or religious bias, and that eating

: meat was just OK to do.

:

: My position is like this: somebody may be Advaita, somebody else may be

: Vaishnava, and somebody else may just not give a damn, and prefer to be

: agnostic or atheist, but the fact is that there just has to be a standard

: somewhere. Personalists and impersonalist can go on arguing ad

infinitum,

: about their philosophies, and in the end we may end up in a comfortable

: camaraderie in something like a mutual adoration society, but I have to

: tell you, that meat-eating is not for civilized human society, regardless

: of what your religion or lack of it is. Why? Please consider the

following:

:

: * Animals are high up on the evolutionary ladder, and next to humans out

of

: 8, 400,000 species of life that are mentioned in the Vedic Puranas.

:

: * If I pinch a human being, he will feel pain and protest; if I pinch an

: animal, he will also feel pain, yet may or may not protest; if I pinch a

: tree, it will not will feel pain, nor will any species of life whose

: sensual perception and consciousness is not as evolved as that of animals

: and humans. Does it not become clear that someone's choice to eat flesh

: causes undo pain to innocent creatures who cannot defend themselves? If I

: take a calf away from its mother, the mother cow will cry (and you can see

: her tears). If you go to a slaughter house where animals are killed for

: consumption, you will hear them wailing in fear and crying in agony. Do

: you get the same response if you pick an apple from a tree and eat it, or

: if you harvest wheat and make bread out of it?

:

: * Thus, the simple austerity of avoiding meat-eating, is not a matter of

: this or that religion. It is a matter of humanity, and sensitivity, and

: just plain giving up the impulses of the tongue and belly so that harmless

: animals can live without fear and pain. Is that not comprehensible? No

: amount of philosophical erudition can impress me, when out of the same

: mouth, the person who speaks, makes some pale attempt to rationalize

animal

: slaughter as being part of some religious culture, or its avoidance is

part

: of some religious bias. It has nothing to do with religion, I say

: again. It has to do with kindness, compassion, and love for those

: creatures who depend on humans to be their shepherds, and not their

: assassins. I usually avoid this topic of argument, because it makes me

: real angry. I tried to avoid a hot rebuttal to Mani's remarks about it

: being OK to eat meat, but left it, so as to avoid the heat of

: controversy. But now that we have a mutual admiration society on this

: list, with appreciations for one and all, while the whole subject was left

: vaguely addressed, I just have to say something. Mani and Das, I love and

: respect you both, but if I slap you in the face, you will feel pain, you

: will feel bewildered, and you may even lose consciousness (because you

: don't know how hard I can slap). So don't tell me that everything is OK

: with the slaughter of animals, when those tortured animals whose fate it

is

: do be your pot roast tonight, experience more fear and pain than you could

: imagine in your worst nightmare.

:

: That's all I have to say on this.

:

: Best wishes,

: Robert

:

: =====================================

: Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer

: 760 NW Broken Arrow Rd.

: Bend, OR. 97701-9037

: Phone: 541-318-0248

: visit <http://www.robertkoch.com> or e-mail

: rk. rk

:

:

:

: gjlist-

:

:

:

: Your use of is subject to

:

:

[Guest guest]

Hi all!

 

I am sorry that I set off such a controversy and have been misunderstood to

boot!

 

1. I was mainly pointing out that fasting is good and that the ekadasi fast

should be as rigorous as possible: not the South Indian way of gorging on

lentils etc. Really speaking only fruits should be eaten, if at all! As far as

possible metabolism should be reduced to a minimum. In fact I find it easier to

fast if I drink only water or tea - even a single grape sets off digestion,

brings hunger. I find it easier to fast totally than partially.

 

2. I did not justify or recommend meat-eating. I was only saying the vegetables

deserve the same compassion and respect as animals.

 

J. C. Bose, who won the Nobel prize for his work on botany, opened his great

lecture at the Royal academy by projecting "hysterisis" curves - curves obtained

by ECG oe EEG methods - onto a screen After he showed a dozen slides a scientist

stood up and called out, "Mr.Bose, you can spare us these curves, we know all

about them!" Bose:"What are they?" Scientist: "Everyone knows they are pain

reaction curves of humans and animals produced by stimulation or hurt."

Bose:"Sir, the larger curves were measured on plants, the smaller on metals!"

The audience was aghast.

 

Years later Backster definitely proved that plants had emotions and memory. say

a person regularly waters a plant, but another repeatedly plucks off a leaf from

it Soon after, if the watering person enters the room the plant reacts

positively, but if the plucker enters the plant shows a negative reaction. Even

telepathic reaction was found: If a person thought of spoke of his intention to

put a living lobster or a vegetable into boiling water, the plants reacted

strongly negative.

 

It is the fortune of a vegetarian that he cannot be aware of the pain of plants,

or he wouldn´t know what to eat!

 

I do not know of "channelled" information from plants, though I have heard that

this possible. But channelled messages from slaughtered animals have been

received. In most cases the soul of the animal accepted that its body was food

for another being and was happy to have fulfilled that purpose.

 

This is not equating the food-habits. Far more to be truly thankful to the

cabbage for having been. The amerindian, whether he kills an animal for food or

plucks maize, says a prayer of thanks to God for having given him the food and

expresses thanks to the animal or corn, apologizes for having to kill it. If one

accuses a meat-eater of being callous, the vegetarian is also callous if he

regards plants as being lifeless and undeserving of respect!

 

regards

Mani

 

Guess it is time to stop writing on this subject!

[Guest guest]

Somehow reading this made me wanna say few things though I really don't like

to e-mail anyone or any group(Since my husband is the r of this).

Somewhere I read that any living things that have blood & flesh feels the

emotions & I don't think plants are in this category. the scientific study

that showed plants feel pain may be true to some degree, but in the hierarchy

of evolution, I don't think they are equal to the animals. I don't think it's

fair to judge vegetarians having no respect for plants, because we all know

better that we should respect everything we come in contact with as it may be

in the form of food, money, any other material or living things. we can't

expect everyone to be vegetarians in this world, but i do respect how the

Muslim community use their traditional method (inflict least pain) to kill

animals for food & how prayers are said before they are eaten. But,

personally being in the medical field, I know vegetarianism has lot of

benefits. Also everyone should know that fresh foods including fresh meat

(not frozen, chemically preserved) are ideal for optimum health.

we should take the time to make fresh meals everyday, not eat leftovers &

know the effects of it.

thank you,

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yes, plants feel pain just as animals do when they are killed. So should we

stop eating entirely lest we offend a carrot's mother?

 

In Bhagavad-gita, Lord Krsna says, yajna-sistasinah santo mucyante

sama-kilbisaih: "The devotees of the Lord are released from all kinds of

sins because they eat food that is offered first for

sacrifice." (Bg. 3.13)

 

So one who offers his food to the Lord before eating is released from the

karma incurred by preparing the food. But the Lord does not accept

non-vegetarian food, so there you are: to live without accumulating karma,

you must be a vegetarian and also a devotee of the Lord, otherwise each

veggie-burger brings you that much more time in the material world. End of

story.

 

Dasanudas

[Guest guest]

Dear List Members,

 

I do not resist my temptation to write a few more

lines on this subject. Recently, I talked to a

butcher who has been killing, at the least, 500

chickens per day.

 

I wanted to cast his horoscope and know what the

planets inclined him to do in this birth and why he

should do this as his livelihood. I approached

more than 10 butchers to know the possible planetary

combinations in their charts. More or less, everybody

started laughing at me. One scolded me even that I

was wasting his time. Finally, one agreed to talk to

me.

 

I write whatever he told in “Hindi”, the local dialect

widely spoken in India .

 

“This is my profession. I am doing my duty what the

God wished me to do. I believe in God. I offer

“Prasad” to Hanumanji on every Tuesday unfailingly”

 

(He tells it gives him strength to see blood. Further

he thinks offering "prasad" to God and worshipping him

will mitigate his sins, which he accumulates in this

birth. He believes in Hindu Gods and visit Hindu

temples because of his master is a Hindu and follows

his customs.)

 

“ I go to “Birla Mandir” whenever my wife wants to

pray god. “

 

( Birla Mandir - The temple of Lord Krishna in New

Delhi)

 

“ I am an orphan. I do not know my parents. My

master (the owner of the meat shop ) who has picked me

from the platform and kept me in his meat shop for

errand works. Initially, I started vomiting when I

clean the blood stained floors of this shop. I was

not able to sleep peacefully at nights. I had

nightmares. Subsequently I accustomed and was trained

in this work. I gained confidence of my master. I

have been doing this work for the last 23 years. Now

I am in-charge of this shop ”

 

(Now he appears to be around 30 years of age, even he

does not know his exact age. What to talk of his place

of birth and time of birth to cast a horoscope.)

 

“I do not like this job, killing a “jiva”.

 

(He squarely throws the responsibility on the Gods

that they made him to do this work and he is not

responsible for his actions. He is not able to

understand what is “free will”.)

 

“If I am not doing this job my family will be

starving. One thing is sure I will not allow my son

to take this as his livelihood. He should not do this

kind of job. He should not do any sin like cutting a

“Jiva”. I already admitted him in the school. My wife

does not like this kind of work but now I am not able

to get an alternate work to feed my family. I was

thrown on the platform by my mother, might be I born

out of some illicit relationship. I don’t know how I

was brought up. I don’t want to take another birth

like this. My wife tells me praying God and offering

something to the beggers will lead me to take a good

birth in future. I am very proud of my wife that she

does not eat non-vegetarian food and not even ready to

cook at home. She is a very religious type of woman.”

 

(This is the feelings of a butcher, who does not know

his parents, does not know his religion, does not know

whether he is a Brahmin or a non-brahmin, and never

been to a school. He has his own thinking about

killing a “jiva” and his own justification for it. Of

course, he admits that he relishes eating chicken,

consuming liquor and smoking. He tried his level best

to give away these habits a number of times due to the

wishes of his wife but failed to do so. He does not

know what is Internet and he has no place like our

List to post his views. He may not have friends who

is ready to discuss these things. I heard his views.

I want to put his views on the List.

 

>From the point of view of Vedic Astrology, I think of

the interconnectivity of his destiny with his master

who is a Hindu, with his wife who is again a Hindu

women and his mental inclination about his profession.

What sort of karmas which led him to this kind of

life. He was abandoned by his parents and the society

labeled him as an illegitimate child. A Samaritan

taken care of him. He is a law-abiding citizen of

India. He leads a very normal family life and

respects the feelings of his wife who has her way of

thinking about the killing of animals and her

religion. I am searching answers.)

 

Regards

ravindramani

 

 

 

 

Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.

http://auctions./

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/12/2001 11:05:21 PM Eastern Standard Time,

ayurjyotish writes:

 

 

> The bottom line is that we can uphold the

> Vegetarian Ideal and be patient and compassionate towards those who

> struggle to attain that Ideal. Namaste, Jeff

>

>

 

Dear Jeff and other struggling vegetarians,

 

I have often wished Purina or Iams would make a "People Chow" 100%

Vegetarian, all the nutrients (vitamins, supplements, etc.) included, High

Protein, Low Carb (say, 5 grams of Carbohydrate per serving, tops),

Hypoallergenic--wouldn't matter if it only came in Cardboard Flavor, I'd eat

it and be grateful. Maybe they could dump a lot of Ginger in it, that would

help with flavor and help with digestion. Hmmm, I may just start writing pet

food companies, instead of just wishing. And maybe Dr. Atkins. If I get any

interest back from potential "People Chow" manufacturers, I'll put it on the

gjlist and we can all write & say "pleeeeease!"

Can't hurt, might help.

Some people cannot tolerate milk well, but no have problem with

cheeses. (Milk gives me a stomachache, but not cheese. Had to drink goat's

milk when I was pregnant --powdered worked best, make it the night before &

refridgerate it before you drink it.) There are supplements for lactose

intolerance; don't know if you've tried any.

There are "soy crumbles" in grocery stores that seem to be easier

on the stomach than some soy products, might be worth a try. They aren't too

high in carbohydrates, which like you, I have to watch or get nasty blood

sugar problems. I make chili with them, and other recipes--just substitute

the crumbles for ground beef in recipes for beef stroganoff, yankee pot roast

(its the flavorings that make it), etc. I know it's rajasic in flavor, but I

live on hot pepper cheese over cabbage as my current "people chow". And

salads with swiss cheese and olive tapenade. Because of blood sugar problems,

I don't do well on grains: even complex carbohydrates cause that nasty

insulin spike & crash. Actually it is a big hassle, most of the time I'd

rather not eat; that will do a number on the blood sugar too. I am in

complete sympathy with you. If I could just dump out a bowl of People Chow

and, I don't know, add water for gravy if variety was needed, that would be

so nice. By the way, I read drinking coffee prevents colon cancer--I mix up

a supplement called colostrum with a little bit of Cool Whip (I know, but it

seems to help with slowing the insulin) and put it in coffee. Hmmm,

coffee-flavored people chow, interesting <grin> Starbucks and Purina.

I'd be interested in hearing about tips and tricks from other

struggling vegetarians. You probably know too much insulin-stimilating

carbohydrate for the vulnerable ones of us will raise triglyceride levels to

heart attack city, and it is a problem; plus you feel sick as a dog too!

Remember, Krishna (Big Sweetie) finds striving beautiful. And I kind

of hope He gets a chuckle out of some of the bumbling around in the kitchen,

Namaste,

Robin

P.S. To those vegetarians who have no trouble with the lifestyle: be extra

happy, you have been blessed! Bet your fifth houses are spotless (past life

credit-wise)