Guest guest Posted March 12, 2001 Report Share Posted March 12, 2001 Hello Mani, Dasanudas, and everyone else, Well, Dasanudas is a relative newcomer to this list, so I have to tell him this. I'm sure many of you will agree. Dasanudas, Mani may be an old Indian Mayavadi, but he's "our" old Indian Mayavadi. You see, Mani has been on this list since day 1. And, he's always posted. What's more, he's an old chap living alone in Germany somewhere, with an autistic son, and he's had his share of hard times. So, we let him have his way on this list a bit, out of respect. He's always harmless and jovial in an obvious way, so he doesn't step on many toes. However, the contrasting strict Vaisnvava views are at least interesting if not educational to many of the readers, so by all means feel free to continue to post them, but with due respect to our Mani elder. So friends, continue, Raghu Goravani 2852 Willamette St # 353 Eugene OR USA 97405 or Fax: 541-343-0344 "Goravani Jyotish" Vedic/Hindu Astrology Software Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2001 Report Share Posted March 12, 2001 > Dasanudas, Mani may be an old Indian Mayavadi, but he's "our" old Indian > Mayavadi. Das, Bravo!! with all due respect to our strict vaishnavites, of course. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2001 Report Share Posted March 12, 2001 Das Goravani schrieb: > > Hello Mani, Dasanudas, and everyone else, > > Well, Dasanudas is a relative newcomer to this list, so I have to tell > him this. I'm sure many of you will agree. Dear Raghu, I have tears in my eyes as I read your mail and reply! It is wonderful to find the affection that has grown between us during the last years. Yes, I am a mayavadi, a maverick. Was not Sri Krishna a mayavadi, when he told his people to stop praying to indra and taught them Mimamsa? Thank you, Raghu! You and I have learnt that we do not have all the answers, for the questions are infinite! Nobody can monopolize Jagannatha or claim to know all about him. One of the earliest verses of the Rigveda even asks if Vishnu himself knows how came to be! Swayambhu will be a mystery always. Dear Dasanudas, I did not intend to make my mail to provoke a religious controversy. What I meant was that the principle counts, not the dressing. I was in Arabia with my children. It was prayer time and all the shops were suddenly closed, everyone came out and started doing the "namaz". My young son asked, "Papa, to which God do they pray?". Before I could say a word my daughter, 5 years old, answered, "Markus, there is only one God. The Arabs have an Arabic name for him!".... We had never discussed these things, but it came out of her head! A German acquaitance had worked in various Moslem countries. During some discussion he was asked if the Moslems pray facing a certain direction. He said, "No, in each place it seems to be different, according to local custom." He had not realized that in fact all were facing the same "direction": the direction of Mecca! I had planned and supervised the installation of an air-conditioning system for a huge mosque in Jeddah. Had visited the mosque many times. It was finished and sanctified, prayers were held. One day I felt the need for a quiet spot to pray, and being near the mosque, I decided to go there. But a guard at the door stopped me and asked if I was a Moslem. I was not, so could not enter! Why? "The presence of an infidel will pollute the mosque!I came to pray. Who is stronger, Allah or I?Allah, of course!Then how can my presence pollute? On the contrary, should he not purify me when I come with reverence?" .... silence ...... "I agree with you, but will get into trouble if I let you in. Please do me a favour and say your prayer at the doorstep, without entering!" "Okay!" A South Indian saint, Nandanar, was an "outcaste". He wrote many wonderful hymns and poems about Lord Siva. He undertook a pilgrimage to the great Siva temple at Chidambaram. But the foolish prieasts denied him entry. He stood outside and sang his most famous prayer: I came all the way to see your image, holy priests say I have no right to see you! They tell me to stand out here, but Nandi (the bull) sits like a mountain and hides my view! Lord, what should I do to see you?" The stone figure of Nandi moved as by magic and to this day it sits aside: the only example of nandi not being directly in front of the Vigraha - and the sanctified linga can be seen from the gates of the temple. The temple of Puri has a different message: the idol of Jagannatha has no recognizable form at all, just a rough block!!! Do you get what I say? It is not the name that we give to Supreme Being that counts: you can say Krishna, I can say Durga or Mahesvara. It is our attitude to this being that counts. Sanatana dharma allows various approaches - all that matters is viveka, insight. The pious Indian who worships Manitou (I don´t mean Mani too!) or Quetzalcoatl - is he lesser than a vaishnavite or saivite? He did less to harm Mother Earth than the latter groups! How you believe is of no matter to me. I respect you for believing! On the other hand, as students of astrology, we know that everyone is born with compelling tendencies. Can we BLAME them for these? WHO ARE WE TO CONDEMN ANY OF OUR SISTERS OR BROTHERS for their deeds? Re my words about meat-eating: I began by saying that I did not recommend it! But was emphsasizing that being vegetarian was not a virtue in itself. The food habit does not form the personality. I am not always strict in my life, eat meat, onions, garlic etc. when I have little choice. But I am a very balanced person, never get angry. My father was absolutely strict: and was the most irascible and intolerant person I know, terrible outbursts of rage and vengeance, who ruined the lives of my mother and 4 of my siblings through tyranny! He was also a great guy for "prayer" and observance of rites! That is what has put me off from ALL outward practices of religion and sent me on a path of "Feeling and Practising"! ALL THAT COUNTS FOR ME IS HOW I TREAT MY FELLOW BEINGS! The Supreme Being can easily deal with an "enemy" like me. But he needs friends who spread love and tolerance. As raghu said, I am getting pretty old. The meeting with the Creator is not far off. He may chide me, but I don´t expect punishment..... More. that we will laugh together! regards Mani Ps: Woody Allen once spoke about the joys of having a refrigerator. You carefully pack all the left-overs from a meal into little boxes and store them away. when it is done, you feel great about how economical you are! Time passes, the little boxes are at the back and go unnoticed. There is a funny smell when you open the fridge. Aha! The contents of the littele boxes are in a terrible state: green, yellow and blue! You chuck them into the garbage bin, wash out all the boxes and your hands: and feel GREAT! You have saved yourself and your family from death through botulism, from eating all that rotten junk! Our outward virtues are like that: if we cook a soup or soufflé out of the left-overs it is good; but if we forget them they become poison! The principle is what counts. It is better to lead a "christian" to the true teachings of Christ - essentially the same as in the Gita - than to ram Vaishnavism down his throat! Two things have determined my life: a vision I had at the age of five, and my father´s behaviour. The vision told me to get away from tradition and seek God as a novice, without instructions. Actually I got the instructions, but went my own way - and got not belief but CONVICTION! My dad´s behaviour showed me that ostentatious religiosity is humbzug and led me to follow Christ, who said, "pray in silence, such that no one sees you praying: don´t advertise it!" Yessir, today I am a christian, but do not accept any church, only the Sermon on the Mount. It is the most practical instruction for the contents of the Gita! It is not so intellectual as the gita, but tells us how to live on the same principles. So you see, the movement is different, but the aims are the same. You as a born christian had to go east to find God. I as a Brahmin had to go west to find a way of practising the truth of my own tradition. Gandhi said that he understood the Gita only after reading the New testament! Akbar the great Moghul said he understood the koran better after reading the New Testament and built a church in his palace grounds. We see the worms in our garden and go out to other parks, think they are better. As one grows old this illusion is lost: you return to your garden and start seeing the flowers - and realize that the worms are needed for the flowers to bloom. In the distant park too there are worms, but your eyes were closed to them, you were less critical! in conclusion, i can only quote Christ: judge not, lest you be be judged! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2001 Report Share Posted March 12, 2001 Mani, So many very insightful things you said in your last e-mail. Interestingly I have traveled from west to east then back to west and now back to east. I was at a Monastery (Greek Orthodox) and a Coptic Monk (from the Egyptian tradition) came to visit. He was not allowed to be in the Temple while the services were going on and I felt so sorry for him. This is because of their (Copts) rejection of the 4th Ecumenical Council which concerned itself with how one views the union of the two natures of Christ (Divine/Human). Many theologians would say that the difference is very small and I tend to agree. On the other hand where would all the great Religious Traditions of the world be if they were as loosey goosey as our present day mentality would have it? So I think it best not to pass judgement on history and not to be to hard on our present spiritual malaise in Kali Yuga. If the great ancient traditions of the world did not take a hard line against deviation, what well would we all be drawing spiritual water from now? The goal is the same for all Religions: Moksha, Salvation, Union with God, The vision of the Uncreated Light, Theosis, Deification, Divinization, or Enlightenment, but some paths seem to be better suited to some than others. As you pointed out this is where Astrology can help us. I personally feel that Vedic Astrology has helped me become a lot more compassionate. How can you judge a fellow follower (or myself for that matter) for having the karma of an inconsistent spiritual sluggard? We need to walk a mile in another persons chart and after that I guarantee you the desire to judge them will melt away. Well I'm starting to preach to the choir, so I'm out of here. Once again, thanks for your insights. Namaste, Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2001 Report Share Posted March 13, 2001 Karen_NY wrote: > > > > Dasanudas, Mani may be an old Indian Mayavadi, but he's "our" old Indian > > Mayavadi. > > > Das, > > Bravo!! > > with all due respect to our strict vaishnavites, of course. Dear Kren, Thanks! Love Mani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2001 Report Share Posted March 15, 2001 gjlist, Das Goravani wrote: > > > > Dasanudas, Mani may be an old Indian Mayavadi, but he's "our" old Indian > > Mayavadi. > Om Amrtesvaryai Namah!! Namaste dear Raghu and all esteemed sisters and brothers of this "family" of GJ list... i'm just catching up my email stuff and read this wonderful post by dear Raghu about Mani and his "Mayavadi"...Sakta Advaita views...and i i just wanted to say THANK YOU RAGHU for that beautiful sentiment...i totally concur with it...we may not always agree with each other...Mani and you and i and the other members....but there's a great deal of love and respect there at least from my end to all of you and most especially to our elder and much beloved brother in Germany....Thank you Mani for your courage to express what may often be seen as unpopular views...and thank you Raghu for supporting Mani in his right to those unpopular if very interesting and thought-provoking views....i love the both of ya for it!!!! it just made me feel like i was at home with my family!!! .....all warm and guushhy!! In the Divine Mother's Love, and in Her Service as ever, Your Own Self, visvanathan Om Amrtesvaryai Namah! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2001 Report Share Posted March 15, 2001 Dear KV, Thanks for letter to list. I said the cabbage is also Brahman and is worthy of our respect and love, but it was misunderstood as defence of non-vegetarianism! But it did provoke much thought! love Mani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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