Guest guest Posted January 2, 2001 Report Share Posted January 2, 2001 AnMaR wrote > Dear Mani, ..................... > You also mentioned a psychiatry, in the context that is not quite clear to me > (I have 15 years experience in psychotherapy)- when traumatic events from > the past (lives?) adversely affect present functioning. .....................The more insight I gain, the less I > believe in "depth" psychoanalysis..... > I would like to know what you think about suicide- if, say, I am too > exhausted, for whatever reasons, and decide to commit suicide- isn't that > also part of karma- not a sin, therefore(as I was thought in my religious > family- being religious myself, by the way). Is that indicated in natal > chart somehow? Dear An, I´m glad you find my views good. Your questions evoke rather sad memories, but I shall share my thoughts. 1. To start with, not only psychiatry but the whole of western school medicine has lost contact with the human being and become sterile individual scattered tools, as if all tools did not belong in one tool-box! The ancient doctors of Greece and India treated physical illnesses psychologically as well, and vice versa. In some ways our medicines are better, but used without imagination. To be a good psychotherapist one must have understood Paracelsus, Kierkegaard, Swedenborg and Jung. At least Jung used astrology, which led to his being discredited and totally ignored!!! Body and psyche (soul) are symbiotic, if one gets sick, the other follows. Many physical illnesses are the result of emotional suffering. Many mental illnesses are the result of physical malfunctions. I had a nephew in Lewiston, Maine, Dr. V.R. Sundaram, a psychiatrist, who unfortunately died young. Hundreds of people attended his funeral, including the governor, whose child he had cured. He used the holistic method. He treated most of his patients in the beginning with high doses of Vitamins and food supplements! Many were cured straightaway, for many depressed mental conditions result from the body craving for proper nourishment. As a next step he would treat the family, help the patient out of actual problems of life. Only after that would he resort to psychoanalysis. There too he would not just talk logic into the patient, but try to get to the sub-conscious level, by using music, rhythmic movement etc. We were both of the opinion that mental derangement or collapse occurs when the psyche has lost contact with God for some reason. Even a steadfast rejection of God based on a philosophical system is a kind of connection and helps to keep balance, but a total lack of contact, neither positive nor negative, leads to imbalance of the mind! The deranged mind "protects" itself by building up a logic that justifies its state. This logic is based, as all logical philosophies are, on axioms = assumptions that seem to be unshakable. The "normal" mind has axioms that are apparent and commonly verifiable. The deranged mind starts with axioms that are self-invented by the sick mind. Why this happens is a mystery, but the logical structure is perfect, if one acxcepts the false axioms! One reason for the choice of false axioms could be a traumatic and falsely interpreted experience as a child. OR A CARRY-OVER OF MEMORY FROM A PAST LIFE! When my nephew could not find anything in the present life to explain the neuroses of the patient, he would do regression into the previous life. He had great success. Many fears and aversions could be explained thus and the patient was able to get rid of them, once the cause was known. 2. My nephew died rather young. Heart failure... or suicide??? His private life went awry and he was disgusted. If it was suicide it was not out of despair, but out of disgust! Suicide, IMHO is not a sin. In fact I reject the usual notion of sin, temporary or "original"! Sinning is a necessary negative experience to understand the consequences. The consequences are reaped mostly in this life. Sins that are not "punished" in this life may lead to an intensified suffering experience in a later life, but it makes little sense to be punished for something you do not remember! Unpunished sins are acts which one is forced to perform by "fate" = pre-birth instructions re. the role to be played, to "test" others. For all i know, Adolf Hitler might have been an angel, come to show the consequences of human folly! But is it worthwhile taking one´s life pre-maturely? ***** 3. I do not know if jyothish can really say when a person WILL die, whether by suicide or not. Various periods, called "Gandas" may be seen, when the soul could depart from the earth. One can survive many such gandas. Final death is uncertain. By western methods death, including by suicide, is often during a "fortunate" period by direction or transit, if the person "welcomes" or "accepts" death. If the death occurs when a person is not ready for it, it is shown in a negative period. 4. ***** suicide is perhaps an experience that every soul has to go through. But since every life is meant to gather experiences, dying too early deprives one of the opportunity to learn more. It is worthwhile to live as long as possible, to learn things for which one does not have to re-incarnate again. I´m sure that every "thinking" person has contemplated suicide at some time or other. On the other hand, in India, I have seen beggars with bodies rotting from disease, with no hope of any betterment, totally dependent on chance charity, at the mercy of ants, birds, dogs..... still living and begging! I would have taken my life long before I came to that stage! But what kept them alive? Fear of committing a sin???? ...... I doubt!......? One way to avoid suicide is to say to oneself, "You have managed to live so long, try to stick it out for one more day!" and do this daily! That is what I did some 17 years ago, when life was black as pitch! Another thing is to take on a "job", a purpose. I took up my autistic son..... It has paid off. My life is not in paradise, but there are bright patches in my life, it is not all black. "Hope and Faith" keep us alive, but both can lead to terrible disappointment! It is more important to say, "It is awful, but I am learning something from it!", and, of course, try to learn. One thing that one can usually learn is detachment, giving up hope and accepting the prsent circumstance. This depends on the circumstance! It can become unbearable ... and I see no reason not to put an end to it! When life seems utterly purposeless, when life and death seem no different, it is perhaps better to depart and start again....... And if God wants us here, the suicide attempt will fail! Robert Clive tried thrice to shoot himself, but the pistol refused to fire. To test it he pointed it at a window - and it shattered the glass! He decided that God did not want him to die, became a famous man, far from the failure he had been. deep regards Mani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2001 Report Share Posted January 2, 2001 Dear Mani, Thanks so much. I've read your response couple of times, and I must admit that I find your way of thinking exceptional- truly holistic, indeed. I agree with every word you said about western medicine (have spent lots of time there) - they really lost "proverbial grain of salt", lost the person, still in Kepler's cause-effect paradigm, which works for very simple things, not for complex ones, as an illness is- a metaphor for our body-soul resistance to the world and cry for help. (That's a reason why I avoid, as a plaque, seeing a doctor- funny for a heath professional..or maybe not) 2) And death itself is, as you mentioned, denoted as a lucky event- I have never seen any death happened, without exclusions, without a Jupiter presence, mostly in transit.. For those who didn't want to die, there maybe some difficult progressions, but Jupiter in tr. anyway! My own father, died perfectly healthy, with lots of zest for life, (thing to be envious about), with Jupiter trine his Sun- and he unexpectedly decided to remove a benign cyst before the long cruise he was planning with joy.. I was actually afraid of some seriously bad progressions coming in his horoscope.. Maybe he "knew" that they would be difficult, and "decided" to die happy and healthy... ??? 3)Your nephew is a rare example of a "common sense" approach- holistic approach, of a sensitive individual (that all doctors, psychiatrists in particular are assumed- wrongly- to be). Those in the past who dared to question the ruling paradigm were persecuted or consider "less scientific" than the rest of awfully homogenous psychiatric community- Jung had just handful of follower, and Wilchem Reich, who spoke about bioenergy and energy field in general, finished in jail.. Now, nobody denies it's existence. Your honest words, Mani, and excellent observation I really appreciate very much. If your nephew committed suicide, ( " If it was suicide it was not out of despair, but out of disgust!" , what an unusual understanding of human dynamic, let alone that I can identify with this myself!), I would say- God forgive me!- he had a right not to be part of the world he wasn't attracted to any longer, or if he felt that his "mission" is over on this plane of existence, and find everyday life unappealing, disgusting even. THANKS a lot for SHARING and CARING, Mani, your posting is so insightful and open-minded- In my feeling, you have earned (only you know how- through pain most likely) non-dogmatic open mind, so rare and precious faculty!! Having said that, I cannot avoid another side of your discussion posted:-you say: "...it makes little sense to be punished for something you do not remember!" It doesn't sound to me as a rhetorical phrase- so I am not sure if I understood you well...whether you just wanted to "remove" a negative connotation from sins-punishment (as my religion, and many I know of, clearly assumes), or to question karma issue, itself- in my feeling karma is beyond good and bad, so are peoples' acts.. 4) I've been in a bad period for quite awhile- I kind of lost any wordly desire, but on the surface I function "normally".. I had my vedic reading done by one well-known vedic astrologer (and Goravani Das reading-printout, prior to that), and he told me that, with my Cancer lagna, Moon in Scorpio (Sun in seventh, Jupiter in 9th-Pisces), and Mars in Libra, Moon being afflicted by strong Saturn in Virgo, and since 1994 in Moon dasha, "brought" so much suffering in my life, and he suggested that I wear pearls- and I do- but I feel like a living dead, all the time...He also told me that I would suffer severe punishment if dared to commit a suicide- like my priest did... And yet, I have a son.. wouldn't like to transfer bad karma on him etc. If you get a chance to comment on this, I would truly appreciate that. Things are getting worse in front of my eyes, and I am more and more an observer, rather than a participant. In this long period I started studying Vedic Astrology, and found a wealth of knowledge, but still unable to move up and live. Thanks for reading this long post. Warmest wishes, An - subra gjlist Tuesday, January 02, 2001 6:17 PM Re: [gjlist] Karma, reincarnation and suicide AnMaR wrote > Dear Mani, .................... > You also mentioned a psychiatry, in the context that is not quite clear to me > (I have 15 years experience in psychotherapy)- when traumatic events from > the past (lives?) adversely affect present functioning. ....................The more insight I gain, the less I > believe in "depth" psychoanalysis..... > I would like to know what you think about suicide- if, say, I am too > exhausted, for whatever reasons, and decide to commit suicide- isn't that > also part of karma- not a sin, therefore(as I was thought in my religious > family- being religious myself, by the way). Is that indicated in natal > chart somehow? Dear An, I´m glad you find my views good. Your questions evoke rather sad memories, but I shall share my thoughts. 1. To start with, not only psychiatry but the whole of western school medicine has lost contact with the human being and become sterile individual scattered tools, as if all tools did not belong in one tool-box! The ancient doctors of Greece and India treated physical illnesses psychologically as well, and vice versa. In some ways our medicines are better, but used without imagination. To be a good psychotherapist one must have understood Paracelsus, Kierkegaard, Swedenborg and Jung. At least Jung used astrology, which led to his being discredited and totally ignored!!! Body and psyche (soul) are symbiotic, if one gets sick, the other follows. Many physical illnesses are the result of emotional suffering. Many mental illnesses are the result of physical malfunctions. I had a nephew in Lewiston, Maine, Dr. V.R. Sundaram, a psychiatrist, who unfortunately died young. Hundreds of people attended his funeral, including the governor, whose child he had cured. He used the holistic method. He treated most of his patients in the beginning with high doses of Vitamins and food supplements! Many were cured straightaway, for many depressed mental conditions result from the body craving for proper nourishment. As a next step he would treat the family, help the patient out of actual problems of life. Only after that would he resort to psychoanalysis. There too he would not just talk logic into the patient, but try to get to the sub-conscious level, by using music, rhythmic movement etc. We were both of the opinion that mental derangement or collapse occurs when the psyche has lost contact with God for some reason. Even a steadfast rejection of God based on a philosophical system is a kind of connection and helps to keep balance, but a total lack of contact, neither positive nor negative, leads to imbalance of the mind! The deranged mind "protects" itself by building up a logic that justifies its state. This logic is based, as all logical philosophies are, on axioms = assumptions that seem to be unshakable. The "normal" mind has axioms that are apparent and commonly verifiable. The deranged mind starts with axioms that are self-invented by the sick mind. Why this happens is a mystery, but the logical structure is perfect, if one acxcepts the false axioms! One reason for the choice of false axioms could be a traumatic and falsely interpreted experience as a child. OR A CARRY-OVER OF MEMORY FROM A PAST LIFE! When my nephew could not find anything in the present life to explain the neuroses of the patient, he would do regression into the previous life. He had great success. Many fears and aversions could be explained thus and the patient was able to get rid of them, once the cause was known. 2. My nephew died rather young. Heart failure... or suicide??? His private life went awry and he was disgusted. If it was suicide it was not out of despair, but out of disgust! Suicide, IMHO is not a sin. In fact I reject the usual notion of sin, temporary or "original"! Sinning is a necessary negative experience to understand the consequences. The consequences are reaped mostly in this life. Sins that are not "punished" in this life may lead to an intensified suffering experience in a later life, but it makes little sense to be punished for something you do not remember! Unpunished sins are acts which one is forced to perform by "fate" = pre-birth instructions re. the role to be played, to "test" others. For all i know, Adolf Hitler might have been an angel, come to show the consequences of human folly! But is it worthwhile taking one´s life pre-maturely? ***** 3. I do not know if jyothish can really say when a person WILL die, whether by suicide or not. Various periods, called "Gandas" may be seen, when the soul could depart from the earth. One can survive many such gandas. Final death is uncertain. By western methods death, including by suicide, is often during a "fortunate" period by direction or transit, if the person "welcomes" or "accepts" death. If the death occurs when a person is not ready for it, it is shown in a negative period. 4. ***** suicide is perhaps an experience that every soul has to go through. But since every life is meant to gather experiences, dying too early deprives one of the opportunity to learn more. It is worthwhile to live as long as possible, to learn things for which one does not have to re-incarnate again. I´m sure that every "thinking" person has contemplated suicide at some time or other. On the other hand, in India, I have seen beggars with bodies rotting from disease, with no hope of any betterment, totally dependent on chance charity, at the mercy of ants, birds, dogs..... still living and begging! I would have taken my life long before I came to that stage! But what kept them alive? Fear of committing a sin???? ...... I doubt!......? One way to avoid suicide is to say to oneself, "You have managed to live so long, try to stick it out for one more day!" and do this daily! That is what I did some 17 years ago, when life was black as pitch! Another thing is to take on a "job", a purpose. I took up my autistic son..... It has paid off. My life is not in paradise, but there are bright patches in my life, it is not all black. "Hope and Faith" keep us alive, but both can lead to terrible disappointment! It is more important to say, "It is awful, but I am learning something from it!", and, of course, try to learn. One thing that one can usually learn is detachment, giving up hope and accepting the prsent circumstance. This depends on the circumstance! It can become unbearable ... and I see no reason not to put an end to it! When life seems utterly purposeless, when life and death seem no different, it is perhaps better to depart and start again....... And if God wants us here, the suicide attempt will fail! Robert Clive tried thrice to shoot himself, but the pistol refused to fire. To test it he pointed it at a window - and it shattered the glass! He decided that God did not want him to die, became a famous man, far from the failure he had been. deep regards Mani gjlist- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 2001 Report Share Posted January 3, 2001 AnMaR wrote: > Dear Mani, > Having said that, I cannot avoid another side of your discussion posted:-you > say: "...it makes little sense to be punished for something you do not > remember!" It doesn't sound to me as a rhetorical phrase- so I am not sure > if I understood you well...whether you just wanted to "remove" a negative > connotation from sins-punishment (as my religion, and many I know of, > clearly assumes), or to question karma issue, itself- in my feeling karma is > beyond good and bad, so are peoples' acts.. ................. Dear AnMar, It was actually more rhetorical. Punishment as a lesson is meaningless if one is unaware of one´s crime. I do not believe in the tit for tat karma, but see that everything has to be experienced in its positive and its negative aspects, as giver and as receiver, as agressor and as victim. Karma is more sequence than consequence. Since a group of souls incarnates to play out roles, one could be victim in one life and aggressor in the next, which rules out "punishment"! Neuroses etc. from previous life are carried over by chance - or perhaps as stepping stones - when the soul has NOT forgotten the previous chapter completely, whatever the reason. > with my Cancer lagna, Moon in Scorpio > (Sun in seventh, Jupiter in 9th-Pisces), and Mars in Libra, Moon being > afflicted by strong Saturn in Virgo, and since 1994 in Moon dasha, > "brought" so much suffering in my life, and he suggested that I wear pearls- > and I do- This is a tough combination. Moon in cancer or scorpio is always an emotional challenge. As owner of lagna in scorpio makes it even stronger. Sun in capricorn and jupiter in pisces are also "other world" placements. The saturn aspect intensifies the DETACHMENT. Saturn as owner of 8th in 3rd in virgo can restrict the desire to create, though the jupiter aspect encourages expansion. At the same time the aspect of saturn on jupiter restricts the the free approach to religion - does not give joy and release through saintly surrender to God. Hence the dejection. You see the world with critical eyes, want no part of it. >He also told me that I would suffer severe punishment if dared > to commit a suicide- like my priest did... And yet, I have a son.. wouldn't > like to transfer bad karma on him etc. Just for the heck of it: see how it is easy to misunderstand: did your priest commit suicide or did he warn you against it? Ha Ha Ha! Of course, I know he is drinking wine (calling it the blood of Christ) and eating goodies. I do not believe that one can transfer karma at all - unless perhaps the other person volunteers to take on some physucal suffering.But this will only enhance the experience of the "recipient2, NOT relieve the "transferer" from going through that experience in a later life! "The sins of the fathers will be visited on the children unto the fourth generation" - this refers to the physical world, the "sins" are foolish mistakes. Like dumping dangerous garbage into a river or field, or acquiring syphilis through bad hygiene: the evil effects can be felt for generations! It is a warning to be careful in life, so as not to make the lives of our children and grandchildren miserable! This has and had a special meaning, because most people are interested in "bequeathing" something to their offspring, whose welfare they are interested in. This shall not be poison! As to punishment for suicide: it is the only "crime" that CANNOT be punished on earth if it is successful! I don´t think God punishes at all. So only the soul can punish itself...... Who knows how? regards Mani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 2001 Report Share Posted January 3, 2001 Friends, Karma and Reincarnation. There can be no reincarnation if there is no Karma. How can this birth be called this birth, if there is no previous birth. Many inexplicable incidents in life point to some deeds which the person might have committed in the previous life. But the thing is that there is no way, these things can be explained, cant be shown, cant be related to. So what is happening here is that cause is invisible but the effect is visible, loud and clear. I had the occasion of reading a person's reading on Bhrigu Samhita. Besides many other things, correctly predicted for his life, it went on to detail his previous life too wherein he was said to be a sadhak and where his tapasya was destroyed by a girl and because of that he had to take this birth, and shall meet the girl again. Another reading, which I was a witness to, goes like this. And this story is available on www.journalofastrology.com too. A Bhrigu Shastri goes into the details of the horoscope and tells that he was a King in the previous life. He had two wives. His younger wife was jealous of the first wife and hence conspired to get her moved out of his life. Therefore, the second wife had to take birth again and could marry the King of her previous life only after she went through the grind of two marriages. Such is the balance of Karmas, and its too difficult to deny this. If we believe in astrology, we have to believe in Karma and previous life. So the best way to live life, Accept the Present as a result of the Past and strive for Future. with best regards, Manoj _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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