Guest guest Posted November 16, 2000 Report Share Posted November 16, 2000 Dear Mani <<As a boy - Brahmin - I was frequently insulted. Every wall was covered with anti-brahmin slogans, "Brahmin get out!" was the most frequent - the actual word used for Brahmin was "Papan", a derogatory form, like "bosch" or "Kraut" for German, "frog" for french. >> That is very interesting to learn, please tell us more. It seems that every country has a punch bag to get rid of frustrations. In Mexico, the slogans on the walls are usually "Gringo go Home". Mexicans like Americans but they do not like gringos. The word gringo comes from the times when the American army used to invade the country at the bordiers. American soldiers had green uniforms and Mexicans used to shout at them GREEN GO HOME. Well, at least they had a good excuse tring to get rid of an unwanted army. But why Indians were against brahmins? Is it because brahmins abused their position, like some Popes in the past did? or was a political manipulation? regards Natabara Das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2000 Report Share Posted November 16, 2000 Dear Members, I am extremely surprised to learn that there has been some elements in India, that will write on walls and call Brahmin's to leave. My surprise comes from living in New Delhi for about 21 years, and I have to admit that I have seen and noticed hundreds of things happening there, but NEVER anything against a Brahmin ---- this brings me to a question, What part of India are you from Rani? And please forgive me for interfering in your discussion. I am just curious to see if we are talking about the same India. Best wishes, Dale - "natabara" <natabara "GJlist" <gjlist > Thursday, November 16, 2000 3:47 AM [gjlist] India > Dear Mani > > <<As > a boy - Brahmin - I was frequently insulted. Every wall was covered with > anti-brahmin slogans, "Brahmin get out!" was the most frequent - the actual word > used for Brahmin was "Papan", a derogatory form, like "bosch" or "Kraut" for > German, "frog" for french. >> > > That is very interesting to learn, please tell us more. It seems that every country has a punch bag to get rid of frustrations. In Mexico, the slogans on the walls are usually "Gringo go Home". Mexicans like Americans but they do not like gringos. The word gringo comes from the times when the American army used to invade the country at the bordiers. American soldiers had green uniforms and Mexicans used to shout at them GREEN GO HOME. Well, at least they had a good excuse tring to get rid of an unwanted army. But why Indians were against brahmins? Is it because brahmins abused their position, like some Popes in the past did? or was a political manipulation? > > regards > > Natabara Das > > > > > > > gjlist- > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2000 Report Share Posted November 16, 2000 Dale Panesar wrote > > I have seen and noticed hundreds of things happening there, but > NEVER anything against a Brahmin ---- this brings me to a question, What > part of India are you from Rani? > > And please forgive me for interfering in your discussion. I am just curious > to see if we are talking about the same India. Dear Dale and Natabara, Both of you have asked for more information. It is painful for me to answer your queries on the list, which is meant for jyothish, not culture or philosophy. I shall risk Dasjis disapproval and try to answer. It won´t be short! India is not a country but a continent. It is as big as Europe and has as many states, so to speak. What applies to a Norwegian does not apply to the Sicilian.What applies to Rajasthan does not apply to Kerala. These states were never "India" before 1948. When people ask me about India, I say, "Think whether this question can apply to Europe!How do you say `good morning´in India?" is one of those questions which have no meaning, or at least, no single answer, but about 15! I am talking of India during the 40s. I come from the Madras ( now Chennai) State. Originally it included Andhrapradesh. But even then, if one went from Madras to Vijayawada in AP, we spoke of going to a "foreign land". It is amazing how little the people of one state know about the customs of the other state. The language barrier is a big handicap. Both Hindi and English, the official linguae francae, are not all that widespread. Illiteracy was and still is a big problem. There are two unseen walls that cut through India. One divides the presnt Andhrapradesh from Maharashtra, roughly there where the Vindhya mountains lie, more or less in the middle of India. another line runs east to west, parallel to the above, some 80 miles north of the city of Madras..... Why? The reason is very historic. Official history as written in the 19th century says much that makes no sense. It says that the Dravidians of Mohenjo Daro culture were driven south by the Aryans invading from the west. There is a present effort to prove that aryans were indigenous to India. Both neglect obvious evidence: the sharp differences between the Caucasian and mongolian races at the eastern border of India, as well as the difference between the Caucasians and the population of the extreme south. The only plausible answer is that the races met in India. South India was the stronghold of the Dravidians, Mohenjo Daro the outpost. The Aryans did not drive anybody southwards. They just gradually mixed with them and a hybrid population was created, very Aryan in the north, very Dravidian in the south. Language and culture reflect this. Practically all northern languages started off as dialects of Sanskrit, with borrowed dravidian words - as roots, but grammatically sanskritized. South of the first dividing line, the language of Andhrapradesh, Telugu, is a 50% mixture. The customs also reflect the 50% mixture. Then comes the next dividing line: the Dravidian language and tradition increases, till it is almost 80% in the far south. Aryan influence is also present. In the north the Aryan culture developed in a certain manner. As in vedic times, the differences between the castes was an internal matter. In actual life the people lived alike, only had appropriate professions. Only the so-called outcastes were in trouble. But they too had a chance: if they accepted the common religion and gave up their demon-worship, they could be integrated as Sudras, the servant class. The original caste system was developed on Atlantis and was called "colours", denoting the "flags" of the guilds. One of the few clearly interpreted verses of the Rgveda shows that mambers of the same family could belong to to different guilds or castes. Caste defined the duties of the profession, but not relative superiority. But the priority led to a sort of hierarchy: the Brahmin as priest and his contact with God got the first place; the king and soldiers as defenders of the society were second; the merchants and farmers who decided the prosperity of the society were third. The servants came last. The Moslem invasion fused the population together against the common enemy. Except for certain rites, Brahmins and other castes lived alike. Some Brahmins ate meat, some Sudras were vegetarians! Temples were open to all, only each caste kept its distance. In the far South things were different, very different. The Aryans - and therefore Brahmins - were a small minority. The Aryan vedic teaching had penetrated, but not the customs. Great Dravidian saints and teachers were there, but none of them dealt with everyday life and customs, assumed that the principle of absolute equality - a very Dravidian concept - would prevail! The Brahmins who finally landed in the south some 500 years ago never integrated themselves. Only a few really learned Tamil, the language of the south. They contented themselves with a kind of patois. Meanwhile the Dravidian Tamils also had stopped speaking their literary language and had their own patois! Spoken Tamil in both types of patois resembles spoken French as compared with the written: most of what is written is just left out! This separated Brahmins from the people of the land. Then came the worst: the Brahmins treated ALL the others as Sudras, and almost as Outcastes. The whole attitude was insulting. Down to my boyhood, in spite of many changes. It was not just "I am holier than thou" but "I am God, you are shit!" As I was young I asked why my father spoke so to the people. He was kind to our servants, was a very high administrative official in the British colonial government, was very fair and just in office. But his attitude to people of other castes in general was terrible! I asked, as a boy of 15, "advaitha means equality. caste is only a distribution of responsibility for the society. why treat a non-Brahmin as as a non-human or non-creature?" That finished all cordial relationships with my father! The Moslem conquest of South India was mild. The Moslem rulers, in time, became semi-hindus, built temples. even today the moslems of the north call the Moslems of the south "brahmin-Moslems"! Only one was a tyrant. The British helped to overthrow him and became heroes in the hearts of the people. Even during the days of the struggle for independence, the Deep South remained pro-British. To show the rift: even during the terrible days of mutual massacre in 1948 between Moslems and hindus in the north, neither hindu nor moslem in the south could believe it, or understand it! For a long time, Gandhi was a "foreigner" to most south indians. British rule meant: if one wanted a job in the administration, one had to learn english. The Brahmins had lived on the bounty of princes and dukes. In the British admnistered areas the grants were stopped. The Brahmins started learning English and often surpassed the teachers! The English knowledge of the South Indian Brahmin, even today, including English literature, is far higher than that of the average Britisher! The accent was abominable, but even that is changing: the university sudents of Madras can speak BBC English if they want to. To learn english, one had to go to a proper school. Most of them were run by Christian missionaries. The Brahmins sent their children to these schools. The non-Brahmins did not, for two reasons. One was that they somehow found it difficult to learn a non-Dravidian language. (The Brahmins were in close touch with Sanskrit and could learn the Indo-European language better.) The second reason was that they were not interested in administrative jobs at all. They had been merchants and farmers, saw no reason for learning english. As a rule, they earned more money in their professions than in administrative jobs. Added to this came the population explosion, illiteracy increased to almost 90%. But Brahmins survived and kept on learning, got the best jobs in the admministrations, even became members of the Supreme Court of England, professors at Cambridge and Oxford. But alas, they did not use their power to help the needy non-Brahmins, but kept on insulting them. Then came the "revolution". Some of the non-Bs managed to study and also get into powerful positions. They fought for their compatriots and tried to get rid of the Brahmins. Violence was not used, only coercion. In all schools and colleges a marking system is used. Every student gets a certain number of marks for each subject in the public examinations. Universities were compelled to refuse admission to Brahmins who had less than 80%, whereas non Bs were accepted with only 35%. Government jobs were limited, Bs could only occupy a small percentage. Shops run by Bs were boycotted. The writings on the walls were threatening, but no real violence was done. Yet it was bad, the insults were bad, esp. towards B women, lewd and vulgar. Most of the B. boys of my age were forced to leave the state to be able to study. Actually i had the 80% and was later on given a chance in Madras, after I had decided to study in Bombay. But I did not want to go back! In those days the feelings between the provinces was very strong. There was a great rivalry between the elite of Madras, Bengal and Maharashtra. The other states were hardly interested, the people were content to be ruled. The new Independence opened up great avenues for powerful posts. The Madrasi Brahmin almost always won the race - and was hated by the others. The MB also practiced nepotism, but actually with good intentions: the possibility of finding good workers was greater amongst the MBs. This was a vicious circle. The MB earned the hate of all! Today things are changing in the north, The MB is not particularly hated. But Provincial prejudices are very much alive. People still say things like, "I don´t trust Mahrashtrians - Punjabis - Oriyas...."etc. based on one or two experiences from some people from that state!!! But in the South the situation has only quietened down. The slogans are gone, but the restrictions exist. The Bs play a low profile and speak very politely, are allowed to exist! Why have I written at this length? I suffered persecution. But I had a number of non-brahmin friends. I could forgive the persecutors. Some of my n-B teachers treated me badly, insulted me in the classroom, deliberately cut down my marks. But there were others too, who fought for me and redeemed my marks, who made me speaker of the class, and with humour called upon the n-B students to take me as an example! Some of them gave me love. On one occasion, during a class excursion, we were forced to walk 30 miles owing to a transport failure. I walked hand in hand with my n-B teacher, joking with him. Older boys collapsed and my teacher said, "You should be ashamed! This grass-eating brahmin boy is giving me company, but you meat-devourers are moaning and giving up!" Blessed are the meek and the persecuted, for they shall inherit the earth. BUT AFTER THEY INHERIT, WILL THEY REMAIN MEEK AND NOT PERSECUTE? Hope I have explained Mani ANYONE WHO INSULTS AND PERSECUTES THE CHILDREN OF GOD WILL SUFFER PERSECUTION AND INSULT! BRAHMANISM IS TO SPREAD THE LOVE AND PROTECTION OF BRAHMAN, NOT TREAT ONE´s FELLOW CREATURES AS WORTHLESS OBJECTS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2000 Report Share Posted November 16, 2000 Hello again, I do realize the problems in India, mostly due to India's provinces that are broadly based on many languages and hence being classified as Linguistic provinces. There are numerous religions and over 500 dialects. You have been discussing some time frame before my time. In the 1940's, before independence, there were likely much happening and then I have seen how many of the minorities have been treated. BUT the important thing is that each province has some problems that are not seen in SOME other provinces. However, that is why I mentioned that in Delhi, there were problems related to certain sects, but not the Brahmin,s. It definitely does not rule out problems in other parts of India. I have spent most of my life in the Northern India, and am not fully aware to the problems in other parts of the country. It has been some 25 years now that I have been residing in Canada, that makes me somewhat out of touch of some of the problems there. Best wishes, Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2000 Report Share Posted November 17, 2000 Hello list members, Brahmins are respected still in New Delhi and in entire India. What Natbara was mentionining may be particularly true about Tamil Nadu, a State down South in India where the anti-brahmin movment had started sometime in 1960s. The Dravida movement as it was popularly known did adopt anti brahmin tones and that resulted in political shift of power and reservations in jobs and nothing beyond but did bruise egoes some where definitely. The reasons for such a movement could be many ranging from political, economical, power struggle and all. This could also be because of some excesses committed by the upper castes vis a vis downcastes and all. For me the reasons are more political than cultural to seek. regards to all. Manoj >"Dale Panesar" <dalepanesar >gjlist ><gjlist > >Re: [gjlist] India >Thu, 16 Nov 2000 07:04:36 -0700 > >Dear Members, > >I am extremely surprised to learn that there has been some elements in >India, that will write on walls and call Brahmin's to leave. > >My surprise comes from living in New Delhi for about 21 years, and I have >to admit that I have seen and noticed hundreds of things happening there, >but NEVER anything against a Brahmin ---- this brings me to a question, >What part of India are you from Rani? > >And please forgive me for interfering in your discussion. I am just curious >to see if we are talking about the same India. > >Best wishes, > >Dale > >- >"natabara" <natabara >"GJlist" <gjlist > >Thursday, November 16, 2000 3:47 AM >[gjlist] India > > > > Dear Mani > > > > <<As > > a boy - Brahmin - I was frequently insulted. Every wall was covered with > > anti-brahmin slogans, "Brahmin get out!" was the most frequent - the >actual word > > used for Brahmin was "Papan", a derogatory form, like "bosch" or "Kraut" >for > > German, "frog" for french. >> > > > > That is very interesting to learn, please tell us more. It seems that >every country has a punch bag to get rid of frustrations. In Mexico, the >slogans on the walls are usually "Gringo go Home". Mexicans like Americans >but they do not like gringos. The word gringo comes from the times when >the American army used to invade the country at the bordiers. American >soldiers had green uniforms and Mexicans used to shout at them GREEN GO >HOME. Well, at least they had a good excuse tring to get rid of an >unwanted army. But why Indians were against brahmins? Is it because >brahmins abused their position, like some Popes in the past did? or was a >political manipulation? > > > > regards > > > > Natabara Das > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gjlist- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >gjlist- > > > _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2000 Report Share Posted November 17, 2000 Manoj Pathak schrieb: > Hello list members, > > Brahmins are respected still in New Delhi and in entire India. Not "entire" but almosst, since the exception exists! > What Natbara > was mentionining may be particularly true about Tamil Nadu, a State down > South in India ..... This is what I meant: a feeling of remotesness and "relative unimportance" of the remote province. a person in Tamil Nadu feels the same about UP! Tamil Nadu is as big as Bihar, Orissa - or Bangladesh, a whole nation! The customs and even festivals of Tamil Nadu are very different from the rest of India. kerala too is unique. > where the anti-brahmin movment had started sometime in 1960s. No, in the 1920s. As a social movement, but with a political party called the "Justice Party". The name changed later openly to "Dravidian promotion party". The party had strong support from the public, for resentment was strong. > The Dravida movement as it was popularly known did adopt anti brahmin tones > and that resulted in political shift of power and reservations in jobs and > nothing beyond but did bruise egoes some where definitely. Understatement! Only the hindu fear of the sin of hurting a Brahmin saved the Bs from physical injury. Whoever could, left the land and went north to get jobs - which was relatively easy, for the Madrasi B was known for excellence of work. which was why they flourished under the Brits. Others who could afford it, sent their children to study in the north. Others rotted, some committed suicide out of despair! > > The reasons for such a movement could be many ranging from political, > economical, power struggle and all. This could also be because of some > excesses committed by the upper castes vis a vis downcastes and all. For me > the reasons are more political than cultural to seek. Political yes, but born out of the cultural problem. The cultural and to an extent ethnic differences between the Bs and non-Bs in Tamil Nadu were, and still are, enormous. Even dialect and food differ. It is very difficult for a North Indian to understand this. The Brahmin made the mistake of never integrating himself, and worse still, acted superior. Things are different for a person on the spot. World War I never touched India as such, But Madras was bombarded by the German war-ship Emden. fifty years ago this was still a very live memory in the South and the word "emden" was adopted to mean a cunning and dangerous enemy! World War II affected India more, there was shortage of many things. But the people of Calcutta, Madras and Vishakapatnam, who were bombed by the Japs felt the war very strongly. Sitting in the bomb-shelters of Calcutta we prayed in terror. We had thousands of refugees from burma who told us terrible stories of the Jap invasion. The Japs were only a week´s march away.......... Prior to that Madras was evacuated and resembled a dead city. Whoever could lived in the villages. Who in Chadigarh can truly remember these things? regards, Mani PS. dasji, please forgive me for discussing these things on the list! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2000 Report Share Posted November 17, 2000 Disrespect for Brahmins is a common symptom of this Iron age of Kali . Age of Kali literally means age of quarrel. Regards manvantara - Manoj Pathak <manojpathak <gjlist > Friday, November 17, 2000 4:08 AM Re: [gjlist] India > Hello list members, > > Brahmins are respected still in New Delhi and in entire India. What Natbara > was mentionining may be particularly true about Tamil Nadu, a State down > South in India where the anti-brahmin movment had started sometime in 1960s. > The Dravida movement as it was popularly known did adopt anti brahmin tones > and that resulted in political shift of power and reservations in jobs and > nothing beyond but did bruise egoes some where definitely. > > The reasons for such a movement could be many ranging from political, > economical, power struggle and all. This could also be because of some > excesses committed by the upper castes vis a vis downcastes and all. For me > the reasons are more political than cultural to seek. > > regards to all. > > Manoj > > > >"Dale Panesar" <dalepanesar > >gjlist > ><gjlist > > >Re: [gjlist] India > >Thu, 16 Nov 2000 07:04:36 -0700 > > > >Dear Members, > > > >I am extremely surprised to learn that there has been some elements in > >India, that will write on walls and call Brahmin's to leave. > > > >My surprise comes from living in New Delhi for about 21 years, and I have > >to admit that I have seen and noticed hundreds of things happening there, > >but NEVER anything against a Brahmin ---- this brings me to a question, > >What part of India are you from Rani? > > > >And please forgive me for interfering in your discussion. I am just curious > >to see if we are talking about the same India. > > > >Best wishes, > > > >Dale > > > >- > >"natabara" <natabara > >"GJlist" <gjlist > > >Thursday, November 16, 2000 3:47 AM > >[gjlist] India > > > > > > > Dear Mani > > > > > > <<As > > > a boy - Brahmin - I was frequently insulted. Every wall was covered with > > > anti-brahmin slogans, "Brahmin get out!" was the most frequent - the > >actual word > > > used for Brahmin was "Papan", a derogatory form, like "bosch" or "Kraut" > >for > > > German, "frog" for french. >> > > > > > > That is very interesting to learn, please tell us more. It seems that > >every country has a punch bag to get rid of frustrations. In Mexico, the > >slogans on the walls are usually "Gringo go Home". Mexicans like Americans > >but they do not like gringos. The word gringo comes from the times when > >the American army used to invade the country at the bordiers. American > >soldiers had green uniforms and Mexicans used to shout at them GREEN GO > >HOME. Well, at least they had a good excuse tring to get rid of an > >unwanted army. But why Indians were against brahmins? Is it because > >brahmins abused their position, like some Popes in the past did? or was a > >political manipulation? > > > > > > regards > > > > > > Natabara Das > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gjlist- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >gjlist- > > > > > > > > _______________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > > > gjlist- > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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