The Lagna Sign Dispute ...

[Guest guest]

> Dear Dean,

>

> This is not in defence of either lagna, but to clarify certain points for

my

> knowledge.

>

> 1. You say Saturn is in his own sign. I find Saturn in Libra.

 

Dear Mani,

 

I meant to say Saturn in the eleventh iexalted. This would limit the number

of older siblings and fits in well with the idea of an older sister instead

of brother. Capricorn lagna definitely indicates an older brother.

 

 

> 2. Can a Lagna within the very last few minutes of a sign be strong and

give a

> strong personality?

 

 

I have seen Mars on the sixth minute of the sign/house give the results de

to him loudly and clearly, so why not.

 

 

> 3. Why should Capricorn give many elder siblings? The 11th would be

aspected by

> Mars and exalted WANING Moon.I would have thought this deprives one of

elder

> siblings. I admit that he apparently had one older sister.

 

Mars aspecting his own sign in that house would still puch through with an

older brother because, after all, he is the lord of the house of older

brothers and the karaka as well. The afflicted moon would not shut down such

an indication completely. The Moon might have given a bad result, such as

balarishta to an older sibling, or a very emotional older sibling, but THAT

Mars still has results to give in terms of older brothers.

 

> Capricorn´s 3rd house has aspect of Mercury and Venus. So I would expect

younger

> siblings. But the owner is in 8th and has an 8th aspect, which could

destroy the

> effect.

 

Yes, this can be true. But I don't feel strongly about this, in relation to

the Capricorn chart, because the fairly well-placed karaka would reinforce

the favvorable aspects on the third which you mentioned.

 

 

I would definitely expect younger

> siblings. Rahu in the third would have made them unorthodox, but hardly

have

> destroyed the effects, being a shadow of saturn in own house.

 

Yes, I feel that the Capricorn chart would have given younger siblings.

 

> 4. A discussion of Karma and Dharma is also not really conclusive. If the

saint

> came to teach Dharma, it was also his Karma to do so!... The life of a

saint is

> no bed of roses! Sainthood does not come from indifference but through the

> overcoming of spiritual obstacles.

 

As I mentioned before, it is hard to pin down qualities sometimes, but an

exterior event or thing- such as the existence of an older sister instead of

older brothers/brother is something that one can definitely pin down.

 

By the way, from Capricorn, Prabhupada's wife would have difinitely been on

the tall side thanks to the full aspect of Saturn. In the Sagittarius chart,

there is no big indication that she would be tall.

 

YS,

 

Dharmapada Dasa

[Guest guest]

Om Krishnaaya Namah

 

Dear All,

 

I personally agree with the Capricorn Lagna for Srila

Prabhupada's chart. While both the Sagittarius and

Capricorn Lagnas reflect in different ways aspects

from Prabhupada's life, the Capricorn chart, IMHO,

reflects it in a more total way. Here's a number of

indications which I think really do point to

Capricorn:

 

1) Longevity

 

Srila Prabhupada's good health and Longevity should be

reflected in his horoscope. He lived upto the age of

81. After the age of 70 he travelled the world so many

times, wrote and translated so many books, built so

many temples etc. On his way to America at 70 he

survived two heart attacks even though he was on his

own (not really :-). I think but am not certain, that

at the age of five he survived typhoid, although the

doctors said they had no cure. Certainly, his

longevity and health was excellent. Furthermore, his

death was a glorious one, the perfection of death. He

passed on, in Vrindavana surrounded by the chanting of

the holy name. All this, I believe, is far better

reflected in a Capricorn Lagna chart than the

Sagittarius one.

 

In Capricorn, we see that the Lagna Lord Saturn (also

the karaka for Longevity) is exalted in the tenth

house. He has only just passed his maximum exaltation

point and so is very strong. Further, he is

unafflicted by anyone else. The same is the case for

the Lagna who is also free from malefic aspects. The

Sun, the karaka for health is also favourably placed.

However this is not so important in our analysis, as

this remains true for both Lagna's. So all these

factors promise strong health.

 

Now examine the Sagittarius Lagna - First and

foremost, we have the Lagna at a rashi sandhi, a

junction of signs, as it occupies the last degree of

the sign (assuming the TOB is 3:29pm). This is itself

dangerous, and depending on other afflictions may have

caused accidents and difficult health problems

(Remember, in the case of planets, Mantreshwara says

that no matter how strong a planet is, place ment in

sandhi's should always be considered first. While this

doesn't mean ignore the rest of the picture, in this

case the rest of the picture supports this). We then

see that the Lagna is aspected by two natural

malefics, Mars and Saturn, and apart from being

natural malefics, they're not so good in terms of

rulership either. Saturn is in fact a fully-fleged

maraka, by virtue of owning the second and third. So

the situation looks very dangerous now. The only good

aspect is that of the Lagna Lord Jupiter. But even

this is a VERY wide aspect (almost a whole sign), and

as I will soon suggest, a very weak one. On the other

hand, bring in Ketu's aspect, which although just as

wide, has a bit more influence due to Ketu gaining

strength from Jupiter's association. It's not nice so

far. Now look at Jupiter, the Lagna Lord. He is in

Bala avastha, sitting right next to Ketu who weakens

him severely. What happens is Jupiter is made weaker

by Ketu, while Ketu is made stronger by Jupiter.

Furthermore Jupiter is aspected by Mars. This chart

shows a much weaker man, whose health may have been

bad from childhood, and who would go through many

diseases without recovering.

 

Now compare the eighth houses. The Capricorn chart

shows a well fortified 8th, which is occupied by both

the Sun it's ruler, and by Jupiter. There is also

Ketu, but the strengths outweigh the weaknesses. Note

that this also a very spiritual combination,

especially as it's moksha Lords in a moksha house,

this combination and the presence of Jupiter, suggests

a peaceful death in some sacred place. The eighth is

also aspected by Mars, who isn't too badly situated,

and his exact aspect to the Sun may show the unending

energy and motivation Srila Prabhupada had. Generally

the picture's not bad at all. Let's now go over to the

Sagittarius chart.

 

We see that this time, the eighth is aspected by

Saturn. This is not so bad, as Saturn is also the

karaka for Longevity, and so may enhance it. The

eighth Lord Moon is in the sixth house in it's

Moolatrikona, which is again OK. However, it is in the

Last pada of the sign and is associated with violent

Mars (also twelfth Lord). This promises a violent

death perhaps in an accident or something. In any case

it's not as clear and accurate as the Capricorn chart.

Further, it does not point to a long life. Perhaps a

case could be made for madhya ayush, but going by what

we saw from the Lagna, even this seems to long.

Capricorn still seems more appropriate.

 

Finally, a bit about the timing. Srila Prabhupada took

samadhi on 14 November 1977. He was running Ketu

Dasha. Ketu is of course in the eighth and afflicts

the eighth Lord as well and is afflicted by and

afflicts the twelfth Lord (moksha, future life). With

Sagittarius Lagna, while perhaps you may say that Ketu

strongly afflicts the Lagna Lord, there really is no

strong case. The transit moon was in the eighth from

the natal moon, but of course this happens for both

charts. What doesn't happen for both however, is that

with Capricorn, Saturn comes and activates the eighth

house and the twenty-second drekkana by transit.

Combining this with the other factors, the time in

question really did look serious through the Capricorn

Lagna. Not much of this can be seen from Sagittarius.

 

So from the perspective of Longevity, Capricorn Lagna

wins, I think. There are a number of other areas which

I want to mention, but I have over-run enough already.

So more soon,

 

Hare Krishna,

 

Pursottam

 

__________

 

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[Guest guest]

Dean wrote:

>

> > 2. Can a Lagna within the very last few minutes of a sign be strong and

> give a

> > strong personality?

>

>

> I have seen Mars on the sixth minute of the sign/house give the results de

> to him loudly and clearly, so why not.

 

 

dear dean,

Thanks for elucidation. I know too little about the Saint´s life as such -as

opposed to Yogananda, whose autobiography I read! Can you give me any source to

get the biography of Srila P.?

 

I ahve heard that birth at the fag end of a sign means separation from Father.

Was this applicable to Srila P.?

 

 

> Mars aspecting his own sign in that house would still puch through with an

> older brother because, after all, he is the lord of the house of older

> brothers and the karaka as well. The afflicted moon would not shut down such

> an indication completely. The Moon might have given a bad result, such as

> balarishta to an older sibling, or a very emotional older sibling, but THAT

> Mars still has results to give in terms of older brothers.

>

 

Was there a an older sibling who died early?

 

> I would definitely expect younger

> > siblings. Rahu in the third would have made them unorthodox, but hardly

> have

> > destroyed the effects, being a shadow of saturn in own house.

>

> Yes, I feel that the Capricorn chart would have given younger siblings.

 

 

Misunderstanding. I meant that with Sagittarius I would expect younger

siblings., But that applies to Capricorn too. Why none in both cases? In one

case expansive Jupiter in friend´s house would aspect 3rd, in the other exalted

mercury with venus would aspect 3rd.

 

>

> As I mentioned before, it is hard to pin down qualities sometimes, but an

> exterior event or thing- such as the existence of an older sister instead of

> older brothers/brother is something that one can definitely pin down.

>

 

My point is: can we take the sibling question as a decidng factor at all? The

chart may show only possibilities, bur not certainties. I can send out

invitations, with rsvp at the bottom. But even then nobody may come, or those

who did not respond may arrive! - based on my experience in life, but nobody

coming has never happened! but usually I am left with huge quantities of food or

have to cook for the unexpected! This may mean that the door is open for

siblings - younger - or the person can fit in where older siblings may exist.

 

I am not too much in favour of reading the fates etc. of relatives from one

chart. This postulates that all are "tied up". The fate of an older sister must

be shown in all the charts of younger brethren etc. The chart of the sister

must also fit in. This means pre-destination to an extent that I find

uncomfortable and difficult to accept, but cannot negate with any evidence.

 

> By the way, from Capricorn, Prabhupada's wife would have difinitely been on

> the tall side thanks to the full aspect of Saturn. In the Sagittarius chart,

> there is no big indication that she would be tall.

>

This is real news! I did not know that Srila P. had a wife. I thought he was a

celibate monk, of the Sri Chaitanya order. Not that his having a wife detracts,

for I believe a guru must be part of life to understand life´s problems.

 

Once again, where can I learn more about his life? Perhaps on the internet, but

I am a goof at surfing. perhaps you could give me the right address!

 

regards

Mani.

 

PS. When i see the Photograph of Srila P. - the only one I have -in the Srimad

Bhagavatam, I see more Saturn than Jupiter.It is a picture of introspection,

not of royal exhuberance, not so much joy in leading as suffering from the pain

of the world! His face reflects compassion, acceptance and resignation - but

not chheerfulness or a sense of humour, but reveals a "strict discipline". The

picture, for me, is capricorn, with exalted Saturn, not very sagittarian.

 

There would be a subtle difference in evaluation, which is perhaps not

understood by us. One can attain spirituality, Another can be innately spiritual

and is born for a purpose, perhaps to spread spirituality. In the latter case

spirituality would be shown as "fate" rather than achievement.

 

The arguments for sagittarius and capricorn seem to be, IMHO, equally strong. A

solomonic decision would be to put the lagna as 30°sagittarius = 0° aquarius!

This could satisfy all - or none1

 

The whole problem is that the astrologer faces the same problem as a

psychologist: how to apply standard expectations to individuals! We live in a

society where values are very different from the vedic society, In a vedic

community even the birth of an illegitimate child was a joyous occasion. Also in

medieval Europe - many a "noble" offspring carried the "bar sinister" on his

coat of arms, a bastard child of a prince! A hundred years ago this would have

been a disaster, accompanied by suicide or murder! ............