Guest guest Posted June 10, 2005 Report Share Posted June 10, 2005 I am sorry Sis Simone, I don't agree with any of this. Purana or no purana, I don't agree with this relative scaling between Supreme beings (and name-calling of others) which is meant for giving one sect an edge over others and that is just ridiculous. The fact that people are willing to confine themselves within a sect is in itself a proof that you don't have open eyes. - Vela , Brammetje Kharag <bhaktas2> wrote: > Dear Vaghela, > > > > As promised I'll continue where we left off. > > > > To be able to understand how it is possible that the relationships mentioned before exist in the spiritual world we have to know Maya- tattva. There are two types of Maya. In the material world we are under the rule of Mahamaya as explained but there is also a type of Maya in the Spiritual world this Maya is called Yogamaya. Her task is to make one forget that God is God. This forgetfulness is actually not to be compared to the complete forgetfulness of God in the material world. There is a hell and heaven difference between them. Again we can use the material example to have some idea. The basic rule is the more intimate the relationship the more informal the dealings with one another. A little example to illustrate. A king when holding court is approached with a lot of pomp and circumstance and bowed down to even by his pry minister but when he retreads to his inner chambers and meet with is son he will get down on his hands and knees to allow his son to climb on his back and ride > horse. Which does the King enjoy more you think? The courteous dealings of the court or the informal dealings with his son? Both the answer and the reason are obvious. This same principal goes in the spiritual world. The more we truly love God the more informal our relationship with Him will be. To be able though to have these intimate informal dealings with God we will have to forget that He is God and that is the task of Yogamaya. > > > > Every living entity has a particular relationship to God based on one of the five relationships mentioned before. There are five stages of consciousness the last one is the fully blossomed state of consciousness or the completely self realized state. At that time we will not only realize what we are but also who we actually are and what particular relationship we have to what manifestation of Godhead be it Narayana, Rama, Krishna, Matsya, Kurma, Varaha, Nrisingha, etc. I want to clear up one point here. It is not so that all liberated souls go to the same spiritual planet. It all depends with which manifestation of the Supreme we have an eternal relationship. We at that time will be fully satisfied with that particular relationship accepting that to be the highest attainment of happiness. Hanuman Swami (an expansion of Shiva to serve the Lord when he appears as Lord Rama) for example will never be attracted to Lord Krishna be cause The Lord of his hearth is Lord Rama. The point we > make is that eventually we have a relationship to one of the Vishnu-tattva manifestations of the Lord and nothing less. > > > > When Lord Rama left this planet, after manifesting His Lila for our benefit, He left Hanumanji. This was about 1.2 million years ago. When Lord Krishna Himself came tot his world only 5000 years ago being very eager to experience unalloyed devotion He once send Garuda His carrier to call Hanuman. When Hanumanji learned it was Lord Krishna who was calling him he made all kinds of excuses not to have to go. Lord Krishna understood his mood though and instructed Garuda to go again and say that Lord Rama was calling him. Lord Krishna than assumed the form of Lord Rama, His brother Baladeva of Laxmana and Rukmini the form of Sita. Hanuman rushed their, his eyes hungry to behold the Lord of His life before Garuda could even finish his request. In this regard Hnumanji said: "I know verywell that there is no difference between Lord Rama and Lord Krishna but the Lord of my heart and life is Rama". Hanumanji knows all tattva- siddhanta very well but his eternal relationship is with Lord Rama > and no one else. Hanumanji still remains on this earth as requested by Lord Rama to teach dasya-bhakti, loving relationship in pure servitor ship, to those who are of that category of relationship to the Lord. > > > > In the same manner we can understand that there are other living entities that have a relationship of friendship with the lord Like Sugriva in the case of Lord Rama. Dasharata and Kausilya have parental relationships with Him and Sitadevi has an amorous relationship. The same goes for Lord Krishna and his eternal companiens. The topic of transcendental love goes to hearth of all knowledge and the Lord manifests different expansions to accommodate the numerous varieties there are. There is even a difference between Lord Krishna in Vrindavana and Dwaraka and Mathura. The highest love relationship in all creation is that between God the Man, Sri Krishna and His eternal beloved God The Woman, Shrimati Radhika in Goloka Vridavana the topmost planet in Vaikunta, the Spiritual Sky beyond the material creation. Although The Supreme Lord in siddhanta is mail, He becomes a slave when it comes to the Love of His eternal beloved Shrimati Radhika. In this respect The Female aspect surpasses the > Mail aspect and Greatness of God The mail and for this reason She is hailed by the topmost Bhaktiyogis who have reached the highest form of self-realisation as the Ultimate Supreme. There is so much more to explain about this but we'll leave it here as we've maid the point about relationship based on transcendental love clear enough now. > > > > You might have forgotten by this time that we were discussing the three categories of living entities Vishnu-tattva, Shiva-tattva and Jiva-Tattva. We have now concluded somewhat a tiny part of the explanation on Vishnu-tattva. Lets now look at Shiva-tattva and Jiva- tattva. Shiva-tattva is special and we will discuss this last because it causes the most confusion about who eventually is The Supreme and why. > > > > To the Jiva-tattva category all general living entities including most of the Devi-Devatas belong. We have to know that God has made a structure in all material universes which are generally the same but may differ in details. Names like Brahma, (Rudra) Shiva, Durga, Indra, Candra deva (Moon God), Surya deva (Sun God) depict positions in a universe. Every Universe has one of them. Once Brahma of our universe went to Vaikunta to meet with The Supreme Lord Vishnu. He told the servant to announce his arrival to the Lord. After a short while the servant came back with the question: "The Lord asks which Brahma you are, from what Universe. At that time Brahma's eyes were opened and He could see that he was not alone in the waiting room. There were numerous Brahmas some with four heads like him, some with one, two, three, up to countless heads. He was than humbled and understood his position was not that special. > > > > How does the material creation come to be? The original Supreme Lord Shri Krishna first expansions are Shrimati Radhika and Lord Balarama who are the presiding deities of sat, cid and ananda. From Krishna and Balarama come Pradyumna, Annirudha, Sankarshana and Vasudeva the first quadruple expansions. From Sankarshan, which comes from Baladeva, Mula-Sankarshan is expanded, from Him Maha- Sankarshan is expanded and from Him comes the first Vishnu form Maha- Vishnu which further expands in to Garbodhakasahyi-Vishnu and Ksirodakashyi-Visnu also known as the Paramatma or Super souls. Most people do not even know of these different expansions as they do not know of the different Shivas we will tell about later. The material creation starts when by exhaling from the pours of Maha-Vishnu billions and billions of universes are manifested and are entered by the same number of Garbodhakasahyi-Vishnus who are the manifestations of God in each and every universe. The Paramatma is expanded from Him > to enter the Heart of all living entities as the super soul. From Him also the first living entity of the Universe lord Brahma is born and directed to create the different planetary systems and populate the universe. From Brahma comes the Shiva known as Rudra Shiva to be mistaken with Sada-Shiva. I'll explain later. These three known ad the Devine trinity are the main rulers of every Universe. In the material world there are three gunas or qualities, satva or goodness presided over by The Supreme Lord Vishnu Himself which takes care of maintenance in the universe, raja or passion presided over by Lord Brahma and takes care of creation within the universe and tamas or ignorance presided over by Rudra-Shiva who takes care of destruction. The whole material creation works as it work because of these three gunas. As in the spiritual world there is only maintenance as it is eternal and no creation or destruction takes place there it is logical that The Supreme Lord Himself also takes > charge of the maintenance quality even within the material creation. In the spiritual world there is also no passion or ignorance only pure goodness. As Brahma and Rudra-Shiva are mere positions in a universe they are generally held by Jiva-tattva entities. Only when there are no qualified jivas available will the Lord Himself expand to hold these positions. This in a rare case goes for the position of Rudra-Shiva. Although the Jiva may rise up according to his karma to hold the position of Indra, Brahma or even Rudra-Shiva he can never attain the position of Vishnu. > > > > Jiva-tattva actually pertains to all general living entities. We now come to Shiva-tattva which is a little bit complex because Lord Shiva is depicted some times as the Supreme and sometimes not (even in the Srimad Bhagavatam). Again only by studying these topics under the proper guidance we will be able to have some understanding. We've been studying this topic for quit some time now because it is the most unclear to the general populace. It also constantly is a source of strive and debate between the followers of Lord Shiva called the Shaivites and the followers of Vishnu called the Vaisnavas. This however is again the result of lack of proper knowledge and confusion because apparently different bonafide shastra's depict a different few. > > > > On the point of shahstra I want to remark as there is a structure in everything there is a structure also in the Vedic library. The Supreme Personality of Godhead at the beginning of this age of Kali came as Krishna dvaipayana Vyasadeva also known as Vedavyasa to put the Vedic knowledge into writing for the degraded souls of the age. The Lord knows that in Kaliyuga the people are so degraded that the have limited intelligence and little mental power to remember so therefore he created the medium of books so that we can read and read again. To also give the proper example he Himself accepted a guru, Sri Narada Muni who was more than happy to serve The Lord in that capacity. Even the Lord when He appears accepts an (external) guru. Rama accepted Vasistha and Visvamitra and Krishna accepted Sandipani muni and still, some tiny insignificant souls declare that they do not need one. That they will reach The Supreme on their own merit and strength. They may do so by the mercy of The Lord > who granted them their minute independence but they can be sure to never reach even Moksha. They will have to suffer in this material world until they come to their senses and are truly humbled by the numerous lashes of Maya. > > > > Vedavyasa started His great work by dividing the original Veda into four parts (Atharva-, Sama-, Yajur- and Rig-veda). He than wrote an abbreviation of them called the Vedanta-Sutra. He than also wrote the Upanishads and the 18 main Puranas (the others He inspired bonafide Rishis and Munis to write) and the Mahabharata, the famous epic and history of the appearance and depart of the Supreme Original Lord Sri Krishna at the end of Dvaparayuga just prior to the beginning of the Kaliyuga some 5000 years ago. After writing all these important shastras Himself He was not satisfied though and this was noticed by His guru, Naradamuni. Naradamuni explained to Him that He was not satisfied because although He had given numerous volumes of shastra He had not clearly mentioned beyond a doubt who eventually is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, clearly and unequivocally. The Supreme in this Lila following the instructions of His guru Sri Naradamuni set out to Badrika-Ashrama and meditated until > He so called reached the final conclusion in Spiritual knowledge and there after wrote his master piece the Mahabhagavad Purana also known as the Srimad Bhagavtam in 12 volumes. The Srimad Bhagavatam is the Lord Own comment on His Own Vedanta Sutra. Who better than The Lord Himself knows what He means and how to explain it. That why only this is accepted by bonafide authoritive sources as the natural explanation of the Vedanta Sutra. > > > > We have to understand the structure of shastra otherwise we will not be able to know what is primary or secondary. I'll give one important example in this regard so that we can have some idea. The 18 prominent Puranas are actually divided in three parts of 6 Puranas according to their nature. The three groups of six Puranas are divided according to guna. There are six tama-puranas or Shiva- puranas, six raja-puranas or Brahma Puranas and six satya-puranas or Vishnu Puranas. This does not mean that Shiva or Brahma are tamasic or rajasic but because they reign over these qualities their names are linked with them automatically. The different guna-puranas are not given for them but for the conditioned souls. All conditioned souls have a mixture of the three different gunas in them and which of them prevail depicts if they are tamasic, rajasic or satvic. These souls will be automatically drawn to the part of shastra that coincides with their guna. This is actually the reason why they are > given. Out of His mercy The Lord has made it possible for all to be engaged somehow or other with the Devine according to their level. We should therefore not disturb anyone in his believe as that is good for him at that point of his development especially if he is not ready for growth. In establishing siddhanta though we should know what is what, what is primary, secondary, etc? We should understand that what is declared in the tamsic Puranas is overruled by the rajasic Puranas and that the satvic Puranas overrule all of them. The confusion starts when one does not know the whole picture but just a fragment of it and starts to speculate on the story from there. On higher levels of education lower level rules are overridden. For example in maths at a certain point we may learn that the square of a number must and will always be positive but when we go to higher levels (complex numbers) we learn that the square of "i" is -1. > > > > There is another point concerning shastra we have to understand in general. In Hinduism, as the religion based on the Vedic knowledge is called nowadays, there are two main paths which go parallel both are not clearly known to man in general. The paths are Karma-kanda and Bhakti-kanda. The mixing of these two is one of the main reasons for the confusion about siddhanta. The Vedic religion as actually called Sanatana Dharma or the eternal duty which is not separable from the soul. The karma-kanda path in its pure form is actually meant to support the bhakti-kanda path. Karma is the sum of all our deeds and the cause of our particular rebirth and situations we encounter within this material world. It is principle is based on the material actions of the conditioned souls both good and bad. Karma is a variable of the material world and is nonexistent in the spiritual realm. It therefore has actually nothing to do with the eternal soul but is only linked to the temporary bodies. Therefore > karma-kanda has nothing to do with Sanatana Dharma because it is never eternal. Sanatana means eternal and dharma actually means "that quality that is inseparably linked to". To have an idea the dharma of sugar is sweet; the dharma of pepper is hot. If somebody give us something and says its sugar we will never accept it if it is not sweet. > > > > Sanatana Dharma has nothing to do either with the gross or subtle body as both are eventually temporary but with the souls who is actually eternal or sanatana. Instructions like serve your country, your parents etc. are certainly good but not part of real Sanatana dharma as the country we are born in and parents we get are all due to our relative karmas and change with each life. They should only be followed as far as they support our true eternal dharma. Sanatana Dharma means the dharma of the Soul. The inseparable quality or duty of the soul is the lovingly serve The Supreme Lord and thereby taste the eternal ever increasing unlimited happiness we are all constantly striving for. We have forgotten our primary duty or dharma because of the contamination of this material world and our conditioning by it. But even here we can not give up our true nature to serve. In all creation there is no one who does not serve anyone or at least His senses. We do this because unconsciously we know > that this will give us happiness but by serving the temporary bodies of our family members or countrymen we will never be satisfied as we experience everyday. Because we are not in contact with the right sources we keep on going around in this material world suffering again and again birth, old age, sickness and death. When we start understanding these things our lives will slowly move in the direction of engaging in our real eternal dharma and giving up all relative dharmas or duties we now accept as Devine. This brings us to our original question: "Who is the Supreme to be lovingly served." As stated before it should be at least Vishnu- tattva like Rama, Nrishinga, Vamana, etc. But who amongst them is Supreme and why. > > > > > > Before coming to that answer and concluding this piece I want to explain a little bit Shiva tattva in short. Many Shaivites, followers of Shiva, do not have a proper understanding of his tattva, the absolute truth pertaining to him. Many people do not know that there are mainly two different Shivas. Sada-Shiva and Rudra-Shiva. We've already discussed a little bit about the post in every universe of Rudra-Shiva. It is the misunderstanding of the position of Sada-Shiva, which is quite complex, that causes so much confusion. Sada-Shiva in someway belongs to Vishnu-tattva the category of God but in someway not. The simplest way to describe it to have some idea is as Lord Brahma has done in his Brahmasanghita. The fact is when the Lords expansion of Vishnu wants to act within the material nature and come in contact with His own external material energy He transforms into Sada-Shiva. Sada-Shiva in this capacity is nothing else than a transformation of Vishnu. Lord Brahma give the following > example. When milk comes in contact with certain microbes it transforms into yoghurt although yoghurt is no different from milk we can not say it is milk. By this example we can have some idea about the relationship between Sada-Shiva and The Supreme Lord. Sada- Shiva is unlike Rudra-Shiva eternal and resides on His eternal spiritual planet Sada-Shivaloka, which is located in the border region between the material and spiritual world it in fact is the first spiritual planet from our perspective. The staunch and pure Shaivites can ultimately reach that planet but not enter Vaikunta proper as that is the realm of the Supreme Lord Vishnu. > > > > Although there might be confusion about the relationship between the Supreme Lord Krishna and Lord Shiva on this relative platform. There is no confusion amongst them. In the Maha-Shiva-Purana, Lord Shiva declares to his consort Shrimati Parvati Devi: "When ever Lord Shri Krishna appears in any universe and in any particular form I en Lord Brahma appear in different form to serve Him." In the Srimad Bhagavatam is written "vaisnavayata shambu", meaning "of all vaisnavas (servants of lord Vishnu or Krishna) Shambu, Shiva is the greatest. The most important element of love is service and in true love it is reciprocal. Lord Shiva is the greatest servant of Krishna because he has the most love for Him and therefore Krishna loves him equally back. Actually in true love there is always a competition in who loves who more. Out of love the one will want to serve the other more. Sometimes one will be on top and sometimes the other. This is the reason why we sometimes hear of Krishna serving > Shiva and the other way around. These are the results of their mutual intimate eternal relationship based on transcendental love. Once Lord Krishna was so pleased with Shiva that He asked Shiva to take a boon from Him. Shiva replied and said that he wanted too have more followers in this world than the Lord. The Lord granted Him this wish and we now see that it is a fact both demon and deva pray to Lord Shiva and get His blessings. Everybody who wants to approach the Supreme lord can only do so with the blessings of Lord Shiva. We can never hope to approach The Supreme if we do not have and show proper respect for Lord Shiva. We can not with arrogance try to serve the Lord and having no regards for his other servants especially Lord Shiva. > > > > If we go back to siddhanta we can easily establish who Supreme based on siddhanta is. Let's start by analyzing their names. Shiva means "the unlimited blessed one", blessed by whom we may ask? Krishna does not mean "dark" or "black" as many declare. Krishna actually means "The All Attractive" because He is the only one Who has all potencies (might, wealth, fame, beauty, knowledge and renunciation) in absolute proportions. All though all Vishnu-tattva manifestations have these only in The Original Supreme Lord Shri Krishna they are fully blossomed and manifested. There is no manifestation linked more with loving dealings in more varieties than Lord Krishna because He is Supreme origin of all transcendental love which even in this world is accepted as the highest ultimate concept of true religion. > > > > When we see images of Lord Krishna we never see him meditate because for Him there is no one to meditate on. Lord Shiva is always meditating on the Supreme pastimes of the Lord. We almost always see him in meditation posture as this is actually his main activity because it gives him the most pleasure. This indirectly also makes him asutosh or easily pleased. We see that by praying to Lord Shiva (We have our own experiences with this) our wishes are quickly granted. The reason for this is that he does not like to be disturbed in his meditation on The Lord of his heart and quickly grants the wish of the person calling him so that he can continue his meditation. Shiviets meditate on do japa of Shiva's name but on name he meditates and does japa of. The answer is Rama-nama or Krishna-nama. > > > > There are more facts that we can give to depict the true nature of the relationship like for instance the holy river Ganga comes from the foot of Lord Vishnu unto the head of Lord Shiva before it flows from the Himalayas. It could never be the other way around. If we study we can also see that the greatest Shiva devotees like Ravana are eventually killed and destroyed but in whole shastra we can not find even one true devotee of the Supreme Lord Vishnu or Krishna to be killed or loose even a battle in the end. > > > > We hope that by this piece we have given you and the other readers some insight and understanding as far as were able too dear Vaghela. Please feel free to comment now. > > > > With warm regards to all, > > > > Bhaktradj Kharagjitsing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2005 Report Share Posted June 10, 2005 Namaste Vela, Don't need to be sorry dear friend ) Not necessary for apologies.. Everyone comes from different religious backgrounds and has the liberty of choice as is every human right. Humbly, I neither agree nor disagree as everyone is considered God's Child and everything under the Cosmos is God's Will. Just simply being "open" to God's Will at any given time..... Each individual naturally perceives his or her own God/dess as he/she sees it. As God/dess has Infinite Forms and Infinite Names, everyone has his/her free will and free choice in electing what he/she perceives to be the "ultimate truth" or "supreme truth". Each to his/her own cup of brew ) Bountiful blessings Om Namah Shivaya Simone , velasivasankaran <no_reply> wrote: > I am sorry Sis Simone, I don't agree with any of this. Purana or no > purana, I don't agree with this relative scaling between Supreme > beings (and name-calling of others) which is meant for giving one > sect an edge over others and that is just ridiculous. The fact that > people are willing to confine themselves within a sect is in itself > a proof that you don't have open eyes. > > - Vela > > , Brammetje Kharag > <bhaktas2> wrote: > > Dear Vaghela, > > > > As promised I'll continue where we left off. > > > > To be able to understand how it is possible that the relationships > mentioned before exist in the spiritual world we have to know Maya- > tattva. There are two types of Maya. In the material world we are > under the rule of Mahamaya as explained but there is also a type of > Maya in the Spiritual world this Maya is called Yogamaya. Her task > is to make one forget that God is God. This forgetfulness is > actually not to be compared to the complete forgetfulness of God in > the material world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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