The wages of sin?

[Guest guest]

Dear KJ

 

Fairly certain there isnt anything to get in this statement because it doesnt

make a lot of sense

 

This looks like another inappropriate guilt produceing quote from Christianity

or the Christian Bible intended to manipulate and control a group of people

 

Is probably best to consider the source and the intent and then disregard the

entire statement

 

Thanks and Take Care My Friend

 

DharmaDev

Kirk <kirk_bernhardt

<>

Monday, December 09, 2002 12:08 PM

The wages of sin?

 

 

If the "wages of sin are death"

and one should "die daily"

does that mean one should sin daily?

Or maybe that if one dies then sins they make better wages?

Or how if one sins and has a baby would that equal death, when it created

life?

Or if one dies while sinning can they keep the wages?

I just don't get it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi.

 

I don't know enuf about the Bible to know about the lingquistics, but a

biblical scholar could analyze and tell you what word was used for "death" in

the quotes and perhaps they are two different words altogether.

 

Like I said in the earlier posting, you really can't separate the two verses

apart from the longer dissertations that they are both a part of.

1 Corinthians 15: 31 Roman 6:23

 

The verse right before the Corinthians statement is " Why do I run such risks

that I am in peril every hour? I assure you by the pride I have with your

union with Christ Our Lord..and then I die daily...:

 

The Christians were the ones being thrown to the lions..so he' saying he's

traveling all of the Roman empire doing this outrageous illegal behavior

teaching this radical phiolosophy, which he later was killed for, so he says,

what does that matter, My ego is dying daily..so you have alot of these death

references from Paul because the epistles were letters to early church

communities, some, if not all were being perscecuted.

 

Paul was a Jew and alot of Judiasm is entwined in all this so could also be

that wages of sin being death is the belief of death of the soul.

 

The 6th Chapter of Romans has all of this death anology and you can get it on

line.

 

But he starts with saying about how if you changed you life by being

Christian you "die to sin" and he uses that whole death anology throughout

the chapter..

 

There's a ton of this mumbo jumbo and then he says 6:15 "Shall we sin because

we live not under the Law ( Jewish code of Law) but under God's mercy??

Certaintly not."

 

Then he goes into the pros and cons of sinning and then that quote about the

wages of sin.

 

LIke I said, you have to take the statements from the context of what's

written around them..to isolate them you don't get the proper perspective and

as mentioned, there are tons of places you can get the Bible on line.

 

How did you ever come up with this in the 1st place ??? :-)

Oy vey

Kanti

 

 

In a message dated 12/9/2002 5:33:40 PM Central Standard Time,

kirk_bernhardt writes:

 

 

> Thanks, as light removes shadows, so also did you remove my question. Now:

>

> " I die daily. I face death everyday and die to self"

>

> "For the wages which sin pays is death but the bountiful free gift of God

> is eternal life through union with Jesus Christ our Lord."

>

> Does this mean Paul is sinning every day? Or is he dying to pay for his

> sin? If he gets free bountiful life why is he dying daily? Or is it that

> because he has more life free he can die more often because he has some

> left over? Is sin paying him to die? If so how much? Can I join the

> club? I personally live daily, face life everyday, and live to self. So

> maybe I wouldn't be very good at the dying thing. The French word for

> orgasm means little death. Was Paul talking about masturbation? In that

> case most people on earth also die daily, maybe even a couple times.

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Actually you have to take the historic perspective.

Christianity was an outrageously liberating concept especially to the Jews

who were

weighed down by all of these awful rules that were so complicated the average

Joe didn't know what was going on and there was all of this corruption with

Pharasees and Sadducees and all of those guys..Paul being one of them until

he saw Jesus in a vision and the vision blinded him literally and Jesus in

the vision led him to a Christian guy who healed him...so within the context

of the time frame and culture all this stuff was written ..he was totally

radical and the ideas completely new and actually liberating.. and we also

don't know how true the current epistles are and if they were edited by the

early Catholic church..really is a prime example of Eastern vs. Western

consciousness.

 

Really think as a Jew Paul was probably pretty anal retentive as he was

responsible for actually having some early Christians killed..so he was so

caught up in all these Judaic laws ..although he shed alot of it, he probably

still had some neurosis to deal with still.

 

In a message dated 12/9/2002 6:12:37 PM Central Standard Time,

kirk_bernhardt writes:

 

 

> Well either way he sounded like a drag (queen?)

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Well, one reason why the early Christians were fed to the lions was

that they took to robbing the Roman temples dedicted to the other

Gods.

 

I've alway thought that if Jesus walked into a modern church, he'd get

thrown out. Or tagged a heretic. Or killed, again.

 

There is, BTW, some argument that Jesus actually tagged his brother,

James the Just as successor, not Peter. If that was the case, who

knows how the church would have turned out? Maybe in a whole different

direction.

 

 

, "Kirk"

<kirk_bernhardt@c...> wrote:

> Saul, Paul if you will, I seem to remember as an asshole. In fact

most of the Apostles were jerks, and control freaks. If you remember

Judas, if he hadn't wimped out Jesus wouldn't have bought the fairy

farm. The Apostles were the reason the Catholic Church took the

screwed up form it's in now. In 2000 years it never changed. In fact

after Jesus split, the spirit immediately left the Church, and has

never visited since. Sure there's been some saints like Theresa,

sometimes some reactionaries like St. Francis (who reacted against the

Church, ironic that they sainted him, but he had a big following and

some rich followers). In fact, the Church is most likely exactly the

reason Christ never gained any foothold on this plane. Yes the

original guys were brave. But they also asked for it. They didn't

try to relate or integrate. Jesus' followers were fanatics and just

as sickening as your average born-again today.

>

> But nonetheless, thanks for the valid study of those ignorant times.

Too bad Maharishi wasn't better with history, or he would see he's

doing the same exact thing that the original church did. In fact I

remember Jesus was a stuck up prig too, and very selfish. Walked

around head high and liked his rich synchophants.

> -

> thunderheals@a...

>

> Monday, December 09, 2002 6:26 PM

> Re: The wages of sin?

>

>

> Actually you have to take the historic perspective.

> Christianity was an outrageously liberating concept especially to

the Jews

> who were

> weighed down by all of these awful rules that were so complicated

the average

> Joe didn't know what was going on and there was all of this

corruption with

> Pharasees and Sadducees and all of those guys..Paul being one of

them until

> he saw Jesus in a vision and the vision blinded him literally and

Jesus in

> the vision led him to a Christian guy who healed him...so within

the context

> of the time frame and culture all this stuff was written ..he was

totally

> radical and the ideas completely new and actually liberating.. and

we also

> don't know how true the current epistles are and if they were

edited by the

> early Catholic church..really is a prime example of Eastern vs.

Western

> consciousness.

>

> Really think as a Jew Paul was probably pretty anal retentive as

he was

> responsible for actually having some early Christians killed..so

he was so

> caught up in all these Judaic laws ..although he shed alot of it,

he probably

> still had some neurosis to deal with still.

>

> In a message dated 12/9/2002 6:12:37 PM Central Standard Time,

> kirk_bernhardt@c... writes:

>

>

> > Well either way he sounded like a drag (queen?)

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Terms of

Service.

>

>

>

> [Non-text porti

[Guest guest]

A woman code name Monocle who was Regardie's secretary did the Watchtower

ritual and had myself and my sister and two others over to watch it. She had

Case's pentacle, Regardies Staff, Waite's Chalice, Crowley's Clothes, and

original Equinox. It was a watery, rather tepid ritual where I felt the life

and vigor weren't much present. It felt very elemental, but not spiritual, hard

to describe. Wearing Crowley's stuff. I don't remember. I was honored and

proud, but wasn't into that stuff then. I had already studied Crowley and

wrapped up my interest by that age. Plus had bad acid trips and was merely an

adolescent, and I just wanted to be normal. I even now follow the occult

through these and frankly still think it's bs. I mean, how much

influence can be obtained from rituals when simple meditation is much more

powerful because it's more sentient. I don't know. I'm not really judgemental

about it. But I'll tell you this much. I don't need to invoke deities because

they are already all right here. I don't think the ill of the occult is the

powers invoked, but the unbalanced awareness of just a single or few powers at

once. All the hierarchies and powers of all the realms exist simultaneously

just where we are, if you look, and we need not spend time courting some small

deity, especially some goetic imp. Why ask a bug about God when you can just

ask Her. Or Him. Or Itthem.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

No problem, Kirkji.

Sometimes email has flaws when it comes to imparting humor especially

sarcasm, because you cannot hear the tone of person's voice. (have had

"jokes" back fire on me)

Dharma Devaji asked me to co-moderate this site with him around Labor

Day..Group was/is getting bigger and to share these responsibilities makes it

easier to have 2 people doing it.

 

So, just needed to go on record that we weren't Christian bashing as this is

a Judeo Christian country we are in and the more Anglos are discovering

rudraksha, the more practicing Christians will come on sight.

 

Guess I have to write an apology to occultists now ???? aggh!

 

In a message dated 12/9/2002 10:41:59 PM Central Standard Time,

kirk_bernhardt writes:

 

 

> Well, I'm not against Christianity. My wife's Catholic, and though I can't

> help but poke fun at the Church (ever wondered why they're called

> 'Laypeople?" - Now you know) still I wouldn't really offend her or her

> parents. In some life they'll want to become enlightened. Plus they were

> all around for a long time but just forgot it. Doesn't matter what

> religion one is. I frankly am no religion. I have held out all my life.

> I'm only now considering going Buddhist, but may not declair myself that

> either. I was only joking my dear.

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Da'ath! Yes! Haven't heard that word for awhile! Da'ath is the abysss

that we MUST cross. Funny thing-- when one gazes into THAT abyss, and

the abyss gazes back-- it ends up very familiar and non-threatening.

 

I was GD. Briefly, too. It's an effective system, but a tad too

Masonic, for my taste. Though, I think the Neophyte Initiation is

GLORIOUS!

 

Good that you didn't joins at 14, though. I think one has to be an

adult, for GD.

 

Cool re: Crowley garb!

 

 

, "Kirk"

<kirk_bernhardt@c...> wrote:

> Hey thanks for taking me seriously when I didn't merit it. I

actually was joking at first, and was a bit flippant regarding the

Jesus story. Any spiritual person any time in history has walked a

tightrope between mockery and cruxifiction, not just Christians, but

Jews, pagans, Druids, and all others. The reason being that religion

is the storehouse of a culture's highest belief. Which is why if you

want to break a culture you make its temples into grain storage (Like

the Chinese did in Tibet). You bring their gods down and show that

they couldn't save you so our gods, our way must be better. It works

universally.

>

> Yes, dying again and again probably leads to the Ipsissimus grade of

the occult lodge, if you have first passed through Daath (The abyss).

I was born Oct 12th same as Crowley. I got to wear his Egyptian Nemis

(headdress) and robe once. So I can play this game too. I was asked

to join the original GD under Regardie in LA in 82 but declined

because I was 14 yrs old and immature. I didn't want to be a 'freak.'

I went to Maharishi University Instead. Uh oh, TAKEN is on, gotta

run, continue later.. Thanks

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this mess

[Guest guest]

Don't forget, Kantiji... some of us have been LED to Jyotish

astrology. That is, clearly the Gods wanted us to do something about

the karmic energies, using Hindu traditional remedies, and interacting

with Hindu God/dess/es.

 

There isn't a doubt in my mind that Lord Ganesha sent me to cyberastro

just ONE step ahead of a nasty karmic situation, that woudl have been

catalyzed by plantary energies. I was born with it, but I don't have

to live with it. I was, in fact, rescued from it, by Lord Ganesha.

 

Problem handled JUST in time, He then led me to you folks.

 

Being a Western Initiate, I do NOT overlook "nudges" from Dieties.

 

And, you know, those of us who are led to Jyotishis, are also gonna be

led to the right ones.

 

But, I do know what you mean-- I've seen some alleged "Jyotishi" on

the Net that border on left-handed path.

 

 

 

 

, thunderheals@a...

wrote:

> Like I said...is difference between Western and Eastern mindset or

between

> control and manipulation and freeing and empowering.

> The other day I realized that it was possible given the r ight

circumstances

> for Jyotish astrology to assist person to enlightenment.

>

> I also know that it is the practice of many Jyotish astrologers to

control

> and manipulate clients to the point that person is totally dependent

on

> astrologer simply so astrologer can milk them for money..

>

> But did not see the sense to condemn all Jyotish astrolgers for what

I know

> some have done or if going to one is not relevant to me for my own

quest for

> enlightenmnet and spiritual liberation.

>

> Absolutely everyone of my local cusotmers are active practitioners

of

> Christianity, in fact the are African American Roman Catholics..

They LOVE

> rudrakshas. Relate to them as "The Tears of God" Because they don't

know who

> Lord Shiva is and they know they are "holy beads" in India. They

love them

> for the healing qualities and for the asthetic beauty..

>

> Has been my understanding that Rudraksha are a part of Sanatan

Dharma, which

> embraces all faiths and does not exclude any faith.

>

> As mentioned..have seen enlightened individuals amongst Christian

Community

> and have found very dried up bigots amongst so-called Vedic

Sannyasin.

>

> Finding that I have really not too much that I agree with amongst

Jyotish

> Astrologers or most Christians.. I want to be able to find a spark

of light

> within individuals of both communities and above all else allow my

self to

> "die daily" to the small self in order that my heart will as big as

Lord

> Shiva's. Believe rudraksha were created to destroy sin and suffering

of all

> of humanity..not only Hindus.

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this

[Guest guest]

Like I said...is difference between Western and Eastern mindset or between

control and manipulation and freeing and empowering.

The other day I realized that it was possible given the r ight circumstances

for Jyotish astrology to assist person to enlightenment.

 

I also know that it is the practice of many Jyotish astrologers to control

and manipulate clients to the point that person is totally dependent on

astrologer simply so astrologer can milk them for money..

 

But did not see the sense to condemn all Jyotish astrolgers for what I know

some have done or if going to one is not relevant to me for my own quest for

enlightenmnet and spiritual liberation.

 

Absolutely everyone of my local cusotmers are active practitioners of

Christianity, in fact the are African American Roman Catholics.. They LOVE

rudrakshas. Relate to them as "The Tears of God" Because they don't know who

Lord Shiva is and they know they are "holy beads" in India. They love them

for the healing qualities and for the asthetic beauty..

 

Has been my understanding that Rudraksha are a part of Sanatan Dharma, which

embraces all faiths and does not exclude any faith.

 

As mentioned..have seen enlightened individuals amongst Christian Community

and have found very dried up bigots amongst so-called Vedic Sannyasin.

 

Finding that I have really not too much that I agree with amongst Jyotish

Astrologers or most Christians.. I want to be able to find a spark of light

within individuals of both communities and above all else allow my self to

"die daily" to the small self in order that my heart will as big as Lord

Shiva's. Believe rudraksha were created to destroy sin and suffering of all

of humanity..not only Hindus.