vata form of obesity

[Guest guest]

the vata form of obesity that is so prevalent is also known as the metabolic

syndrome X

pattern - its why a high fat, high protein diet is usually very good for this

syndrome, in

conjunction mineral supplementation (through increased vegetable consumption,

vegetable/bone broths, seaweed, as well as key minerals such as Ca, Mg, Cr),

muscle-

building exercise etc.

 

see: http://www.toddcaldecott.com/synX.html

 

to be honest, i think that pure kapha types are increasingly rare in our

society, with an

increasing number of people with an underlying vata imbalance that is

precipitated by

what is now centuries old distortions in our diet (and lifestyle)

 

best... todd caldecott

 

> Please can you point me in the direction of more information about

> this vata obeisity?

[Guest guest]

Hi one interesting thing is, that a few years ago, my husband

tried to lose weight doing a vegetarian version of the "atkins diet"

where he ate high fat (good fat), high protein and very low carbs

(except a little fruit). he was quite successful in losing weight,

although found it hard to maintain as the cravings for carbs were

quite strong.

thanks again for the info,

Tracey

 

ayurveda, "Todd Caldecott" <todd

wrote:

>

> the vata form of obesity that is so prevalent is also known as the

metabolic syndrome X

> pattern - its why a high fat, high protein diet is usually very

good for this syndrome, in

> conjunction mineral supplementation (through increased vegetable

consumption,

> vegetable/bone broths, seaweed, as well as key minerals such as Ca,

Mg, Cr), muscle-

> building exercise etc.

>

> see: http://www.toddcaldecott.com/synX.html

[Guest guest]

he who controls his tongue controls his life

 

ayurveda, tracey_rao <no_reply wrote:

>

> Hi one interesting thing is, that a few years ago, my husband

> tried to lose weight doing a vegetarian version of the "atkins diet"

> where he ate high fat (good fat), high protein and very low carbs

> (except a little fruit). he was quite successful in losing weight,

> although found it hard to maintain as the cravings for carbs were

> quite strong.

[Guest guest]

There has been a high-pitch propoganda on Low Carb diet for obtaining

benifits against modern chronic diseases. THe author too has been

thinking on this, whether this approach is right. Before posting his

thoughts, one recent interesting research finding is worth examining.

 

Carbohydrates are nutrients (including sugars, starches and fiber)

found in fruits, vegetables, beans, whole grains, and dairy foods,

and are the body's main source of energy (calories). Low-

carbohydrate, high-protein diets have recently become a popular way

to lose weight. There have been conflicting reports from the medical

community on the effectiveness and safety of the low-carbohydrate

diet.

 

Researchers from Switzerland recently conducted a study that showed

that low-carbohydrate diets appear to be about as effective as low-

fat diets over the long-term. However, low-carbohydrate diets may

also be responsible for increasing the cholesterol levels of

participants.

 

The Swiss study tested 447 individuals with an average age range of

42 to 49. Roughly half of these individuals participated in a low-

carbohydrate diet while the other group tried a low-fat diet.

 

After six months, the participants who ate a low-carbohydrate diet

had lost more weight and were more likely to still be on the diet.

However, after a year, weight loss was the same for both groups.

Blood pressure levels and participation rates were the same for both

groups after both six months and one year.

 

The researchers also found that individuals who participated in the

low-carbohydrate diet had elevated levels of LDL ("bad") and HDL

("good") cholesterol, as well as higher triglyceride levels, at the

six month and one year marks.

 

The study's authors caution that more research is needed before a

definitive evaluation of low-carbohydrate diets can be made. "We

believe there is still insufficient evidence to make recommendations

for or against the use of low-carbohydrate diets to induce weight

loss, especially for durations longer than six months," the authors

of the study explained in a recent press release. "The differences in

weight loss between low-carbohydrate and low-fat diets after 12

months were minor and not clinically relevant." The study was

published in the February 13 issue of the Archives of Internal

Medicine.

 

Health, as defined by ayurveda, is a balance of all doshas of body

and mind. Each of body cell must be in balance. Each cell of our body

represents same picture in the body, as our own body in universe. IF

that is the case, then we also must remain in balance with rest of

the universe. If universe is taken as earth for the time being, the

proportion of minerals, carbohydrates, proteins must mach as average

over the earth with that present in in the body. The average over

each geographical region may be compared with that found in body.

Thus in the regions where not many agricultural crops exist, proteins

more than carbohydrates appear right.

 

When our diet is intentionally altered out of equilibrium with the

environment around us or our basic constitution (Prakruti), craving

results for missing component of the diet. Thus after some time, low-

carb diet gives rise to craving to go for carbo-hydrates only. What

is reported in the attached messages, is reported by several and hence root

treatment of obesity lies not in cutting out or reducing some

portion of dietary component, but in balancing the diet in harmony

with the region and prakruti. Author mentioned post-meal thirst as

the body signal for assessment of food digestibility. Same signal

body gives if desired diet component is missing in the diet. If one

is thirsty, often the signal is misunderstood as hunger and person

eats. Since body finds some water in the food, signal gets satisfied

to some extent; but an hour or so after meal, thirst reappears. This

is root reason of Vata obesity, since bodies requirements (Aavegas,

natural urges of body) are not given adequate attention. Vata

problems originate in the disturbances in the Central Nervous system,

arising out of lack of dietary components, minerals etc. Most of us

know how people under depression become compulsive eaters and become

obese.

 

Those who had adequate dairy food in child hood, feel thirst and lack

of satisfaction if there is no dairy product in the meal.

Overstuffing is the result since body does not show satisfaction

signal till some dairy product is provided. A balanced and complete

diet always leaves the person fully satisfied even with moderate

amount of food, even if it fills only 50% of stomach. Each individual

should find his own percentage of carbs, fats, proteins. Listen to body, check

pulse rate 30 minutes after meal, check thirst level. If you are not averse,

even urine taste, color are guidelines. Within 90 minutes of meal, not only

stomach should be light, satisfaction should be felt. Vigor and not drowsiness

should be experienced.

 

Author cited dairy food as an example, but same thing can be said for those whoa

re accustomed to non-vegetarian food from childhood. There is no point in

converting non-vegetarians to vegetarianism, they too will become diseased by

Vatic disorders.

 

Dr Bhate

 

 

ayurveda, tracey_rao <no_reply

wrote:

>

> Hi one interesting thing is, that a few years ago, my husband

> tried to lose weight doing a vegetarian version of the "atkins

diet"

> where he ate high fat (good fat), high protein and very low carbs

> (except a little fruit). he was quite successful in losing weight,

> although found it hard to maintain as the cravings for carbs were

> quite strong.

> thanks again for the info,

> Tracey

>

> ayurveda, "Todd Caldecott" <todd@>

> wrote:

> >

> > the vata form of obesity that is so prevalent is also known as

the

> metabolic syndrome X

> > pattern - its why a high fat, high protein diet is usually very

> good for this syndrome, in

> > conjunction mineral supplementation (through increased vegetable

> consumption,

> > vegetable/bone broths, seaweed, as well as key minerals such as

Ca,

> Mg, Cr), muscle-

> > building exercise etc.

> >

> > see: http://www.toddcaldecott.com/synX.html

>

[Guest guest]

The man who made the low carb diet wildly popular (at least in N. America) died

about 2 years ago. His name was Atkins (of the Atkins diet). He died

overweight and of a heart attack.

 

GB

 

Re: vata form of obesity

 

There has been a high-pitch propoganda on Low Carb diet for obtaining

benifits against modern chronic diseases. THe author too has been

thinking on this, whether this approach is right. Before posting his

thoughts, one recent interesting research finding is worth examining.

[Guest guest]

Dear GB, thats really good one...

 

Rakesh

ayurveda, Guru Khalsa <greatyoga

wrote:

>

> The man who made the low carb diet wildly popular (at least in N.

America) died about 2 years ago. His name was Atkins (of the Atkins

diet). He died overweight and of a heart attack.

[Guest guest]

>

> There has been a high-pitch propoganda on Low Carb diet for obtaining

> benifits against modern chronic diseases. THe author too has been

> thinking on this, whether this approach is right. Before posting his

> thoughts, one recent interesting research finding is worth examining.

 

dr bhate

 

i don't know why something is necessarily high pitched simply because

you don't agree with it...

further, the question arises as to the nature of what is right, and

the effort expended to uncover or "expose" it

 

>

> Carbohydrates are nutrients (including sugars, starches and fiber)

> found in fruits, vegetables, beans, whole grains, and dairy foods,

> and are the body's main source of energy (calories).

 

that is quite simply, absolutely and irrevocably untrue

glucose is an important molecule to supply energy production in the

body, but the body maintains several important and apparently helpful

methods of fulfilling this requirement - even if the diet is very low

in carbs

 

with getting into the physiology too much, this latter method is

particularly helpful in managing blood sugar and normalizing

metabolism when the vattika temperament is dominant, whether in

constitution or disease

 

the effect of vata is dhatu kashaya, and dravyas from animal products

such as the marrow of the bone is the #1, 100%, A1-best treatment

for vata, and this has been stated so many times by the charyas i

cannot possibly understand how you might disagree with the premise,

even if it doesn't bend to your philosophy

 

 

>

> Researchers from Switzerland recently conducted a study that showed

> that low-carbohydrate diets appear to be about as effective as low-

> fat diets over the long-term. However, low-carbohydrate diets may

> also be responsible for increasing the cholesterol levels of

> participants.

> <snip>

> weight loss between low-carbohydrate and low-fat diets after 12

> months were minor and not clinically relevant." The study was

> published in the February 13 issue of the Archives of Internal

> Medicine.

 

its usually appropriate when citing a study to provide the details of

authorship and publication

but this, once again, is the blind men feeling the elephant, one

study against hundreds of others - someone's version of a pitched

battle between darkness and light, or randomness and meaning- the

reality is we can cite papers all day long and get nowhere

 

for me, i think you may need to become better informed about the

different types of low-carb diet

i have vegetarian patients the live on coke and cheetohs - definitely

vegetarian, but maybe not so healthy

these studies use broad parameters that can be interpreted in a

number of ways, just like the way fat consumption and obesity can say

very different things when you gather a little more data

 

 

 

>

> Health, as defined by ayurveda, is a balance of all doshas of body

> and mind. Each of body cell must be in balance. Each cell of our body

> represents same picture in the body, as our own body in universe. IF

> that is the case, then we also must remain in balance with rest of

> the universe. If universe is taken as earth for the time being, the

> proportion of minerals, carbohydrates, proteins must mach as average

> over the earth with that present in in the body. The average over

> each geographical region may be compared with that found in body.

> Thus in the regions where not many agricultural crops exist, proteins

> more than carbohydrates appear right.

>

 

in los angeles the landscape has been dramatically altered so

millions of people can live a valley that can naturally sustain about

75 families - the point is, humans have dramatically altered the

landscape, to suit their need to settle in certain areas grow crops

 

if we truly followed nature and the natural geography we would

probably move from place to place, or at least range over a very wide

area, like other mammals do, traveling over a broad distance to find

the nutrients we need, that the earth provides in abundance, but not

always "conveniently"

 

this is our human heritage

Caldecott

todd

www.toddcaldecott.com

[Guest guest]

The deficinecies pointed out by you are accepted. In fact that is why

author felt a separate post may be needed. The intention of the post

referred by you was to point out that internet is full of all

confusing studies. Especially so when food is concerned. Studies are

perhaps means of promoting suppliments: "low-carb", "low-fat" etc.

 

Balnce needs everything, from plants as well as animals. Let us not

get dragged into "vegetarianism" Vs "non-veg" controversey. When we

start taking animal fat right from birth (mothers milk), and our body

is made by taking components from another animal (mother), the issue

of "veg" Vs "non-veg" itself collapses. When plants are shown to be

living matter and we use them as food, the controversey fizzles out.

 

The point to be emhasized was, every constitution (prakruti) is

different, and if an artificial diet is provideed by reducing/adding

a food componet (carb or fat or proteins), craving will result and

original equilibrium will be restored by following the craving. What

dosha of mind you will classify craving into?

 

We should not look at the health like mainstream, treat body as a

system to which when certain inputs are added or subtracted results

into certain definite behaviour.

 

Diet is a highly controversial subject. While legumes (Moong bean in

Khitchri) are said to be incompatible with milk, many individuals in

Saurashtra (Gujrat state) lived in three digits and most beyond 80

with Khitchri and milk as dinner. When few of them were pointed out this

incompatibility, they said, "we have been doing this since age 5 and

never had any problems. We know our health better than Vaidyas!"

 

Engineered diets are strategies similar to those aimed at

developing vaccines/drugs for mass cure. Author feels that natural

should be preferred over "engineered" everywhere. What suits everyone is his/her

choice and generalized conclusions that "low-carb" or "low-fat" should be not be

general mantra for treating "obesity" or similar chronic problems. On the other

hand, if a particular vegetable or plant having specific phytonuitrient

beneficial for patients of a particular disease, that can be recommended. Here

too, Vaidyas have found that certain plants or phytochemicals did not help some

individuals, and they had to try someother herb in the same group or explain

this as "karmic".

 

As regards providing "better information", you are most welcome. All of us would

like to get enlightened.

 

We were eating locally available oils and fats, plenty of milk and dairy

products 40 years ago. And the epidemic of CAD, Diabetese did not exist earlier.

With high pitch propoganda of products not of Indian otrigin, e.g. Sunflower

oil, Safflower oil, Cotton seed oil, Soy oil, corn oil and soy products, the

incidence of diseases has increased rather than decreased. One may blame

lifestyle in metros, but what about villages, there too auto-immune diseases are

increasing despite hard lifestyle. All this picture is difficult to explain. We

need expertise and insight.

 

Dr Bhate

 

ayurveda, Todd Caldecott <todd

wrote:

> i don't know why something is necessarily high pitched simply

because

> you don't agree with it...

> further, the question arises as to the nature of what is right,

and

> the effort expended to uncover or "expose" it

[Guest guest]

sorry to revive this thread, but i caught GB's comment in the

archives while searching for something else:

 

> The man who made the low carb diet wildly popular (at least in N.

> America) died

> about 2 years ago. His name was Atkins (of the Atkins diet). He died

> overweight and of a heart attack.

>

> GB

 

this isn't true, he slipped and hit his head on an icy side-walk

he was in a coma for 2 weeks and gained 60 lbs of weight from fluid

retention before his eventual death

 

"While it was well known that Atkins suffered from viral-induced

cardiomyopathy in his final years - the late guru openly discussed

his condition on national television - his critics are now claiming

that atherosclerotic heart disease played a major role in his death.

In contrast to cardiomyopathy, which is often instigated by genetic

pre-disposition, birth defects, or viral infections, atherosclerotic

heart disease is believed to be influenced most heavily by dietary

and lifestyle factors.

 

According to a statement released by Atkins' wife Veronica, his

coronary arteries showed only minimal and clinically insignificant

signs of atherosclerosis when he was diagnosed with cardiomyopathy

four years ago, "consistent with what would be expected in a 69-year

old man". There's nothing earth-shattering there - arterial hardening

is an inevitable part of aging, and even the healthiest and fittest

amongst us will have at least some evidence of atherosclerosis by the

time we reach our seventies. According to Veronica, "Robert did have

some progression of his coronary artery disease in the last three

years of his life including some new blockage of a secondary

artery ... He did not have a heart attack."

 

Veronica Atkins then goes onto identify what is without question the

most regrettable aspect of this whole messy affair: "I now find

myself in the uncomfortable position of having to relive my late

husband's horrific accident and defend him from people who would

convince you that stolen and irrelevant bits and pieces of his

medical history carry more validity than published scientifically

controlled and peer-reviewed research out of Harvard, Duke

University, the American Heart Association and the National

Institutes of Health.

 

source: http://www.theomnivore.com/Did%20the%20Atkins%20Diet%20really%

20kill%20Dr%20Atkins.html

 

not intended directly at you GB, but i have to say that i am

ceaselessly surprised to the extent to which one's personal beliefs

corrupt the capacity to have an open mind, especially those that

foster these beliefs on the supposed basis of a higher ethical/

spiritual standard

 

personally, i don't support an atkins style diet across the board,

but i have seen it make dramatic changes in certain individuals (i.e.

vata-type obesity), normalizing BP, lipid levels and other objective

assessments including the waist to hip ratio

 

AND, being a herbalist, i strongly advocate LOTS and LOTS of

vegetables with this any any diet, and this will offset any potential

for an "acidifying" effect

 

btw, try salmon trim (incl. heads) for your dogs - i guarantee you

there is nothing better for a glossy, shiny, healthy coat!

Caldecott

todd (AT) toddcaldecott (DOT) com

www.toddcaldecott.com

[Guest guest]

 

 

The man who made the low carb diet wildly popular (at least in N.

> > America) died

> > about 2 years ago. His name was Atkins (of the Atkins diet). He died

> > overweight and of a heart attack.

> >

> > GB

>

> this isn't true, he slipped and hit his head on an icy side-walk

> he was in a coma for 2 weeks and gained 60 lbs of weight from fluid

> retention before his eventual death

 

 

This happenend awhile ago. As I recall, the mainstream media reported

that he died overweight and of a heart attack. Maybe I am suffering

from arteriosclerosis of the brain myself and need massive doses of

gotu cola.:>) I did look it up and it did appear that Atkins died the

way you said. I did see a picture of Atkins at one time and he had a

big gut but again maybe my brain cells weren't working then also.

 

> "While it was well known that Atkins suffered from viral-induced

> cardiomyopathy in his final years - the late guru openly discussed

> his condition on national television - his critics are now claiming

> that atherosclerotic heart disease played a major role in his death.

> In contrast to cardiomyopathy, which is often instigated by genetic

> pre-disposition, birth defects, or viral infections, atherosclerotic

> heart disease is believed to be influenced most heavily by dietary

> and lifestyle factors.

 

Some diseases are more prone to genetics than others but Ayurveda

indicates that all the body is interconnected and each has an

influence on the other. I don't think diet can be ruled out in

cardiomyopathy.

 

> According to a statement released by Atkins' wife Veronica, his

> coronary arteries showed only minimal and clinically insignificant

> signs of atherosclerosis when he was diagnosed with cardiomyopathy

> four years ago, "consistent with what would be expected in a 69-year

> old man". There's nothing earth-shattering there - arterial hardening

> is an inevitable part of aging, and even the healthiest and fittest

> amongst us will have at least some evidence of atherosclerosis by the

> time we reach our seventies. According to Veronica, "Robert did have

> some progression of his coronary artery disease in the last three

> years of his life including some new blockage of a secondary

> artery ... He did not have a heart attack."

>

> Veronica Atkins then goes onto identify what is without question the

> most regrettable aspect of this whole messy affair: "I now find

> myself in the uncomfortable position of having to relive my late

> husband's horrific accident and defend him from people who would

> convince you that stolen and irrelevant bits and pieces of his

> medical history carry more validity than published scientifically

> controlled and peer-reviewed research out of Harvard, Duke

> University, the American Heart Association and the National

> Institutes of Health.

>

> source: http://www.theomnivore.com/Did%20the%20Atkins%20Diet%20really%

> 20kill%20Dr%20Atkins.html

>

It is regretable that she has to relive the accident but he was a

public figure and there are questions and I myself have questions. If

the questions are not answered then there will be more questions. I

did go to the URL posted above but could not connect directly so just

went to home page and then to articles but did not see it although it

is probably ther someplace.

 

> not intended directly at you GB, but i have to say that i am

> ceaselessly surprised to the extent to which one's personal beliefs

> corrupt the capacity to have an open mind, especially those that

> foster these beliefs on the supposed basis of a higher ethical/

> spiritual standard

 

As I said before I made a mistake.

 

> personally, i don't support an atkins style diet across the board,

> but i have seen it make dramatic changes in certain individuals (i.e.

> vata-type obesity), normalizing BP, lipid levels and other objective

> assessments including the waist to hip ratio

 

I agree that incertain individuals, they may need more fats and

proteins and other dietary changes. I presume that you would

prescribe a healthy diet for those people. A lot of Atkins followers

I see eat massive amounts of meat dairy products and fats (and often

very few fruits and veggies) and they are within Atkins guidelines.

 

> AND, being a herbalist, i strongly advocate LOTS and LOTS of

> vegetables with this any any diet, and this will offset any potential

> for an "acidifying" effect

 

Agreed\

 

> btw, try salmon trim (incl. heads) for your dogs - i guarantee you

> there is nothing better for a glossy, shiny, healthy coat!

 

As you know I am a vegetarian. I have no problem with feeding dogs

and cats meat and fish but I do not have a good source for salmon

trim. Most people fish miles away from where I live and usually clean

the fish on the spot. I will be on the lookout for a source though.

 

Thanks

GB

[Guest guest]

GB

YOu use direct link:

http://www.theomnivore.com/The_Great_Cholesterol_Con.html

 

 

To reach article given by Todd at

http://www.theomnivore.com/Did%20the%20Atkins%20Diet%20really%

20kill%20Dr%20Atkins.html

 

Dr Bhate

 

> >

> > source: http://www.theomnivore.com/Did%20the%20Atkins%20Diet%

20really%

> > 20kill%20Dr%20Atkins.html

I

> did go to the URL posted above but could not connect directly so

just

> went to home page and then to articles but did not see it although

it

> is probably ther someplace.

[Guest guest]

Thank you Dr. Bhate

 

GB

 

ayurveda, "Shirish Bhate"

<shirishbhate wrote:

>

> GB

> YOu use direct link:

> http://www.theomnivore.com/The_Great_Cholesterol_Con.html

> > did go to the URL posted above but could not connect directly so

[Guest guest]

> Re: vata form of obesity

> Posted by: "greatyoga" greatyoga greatyoga

> Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:19 pm (PST)

>

>

>

> > "While it was well known that Atkins suffered from viral-induced

> > cardiomyopathy in his final years - the late guru openly discussed

> > his condition on national television - his critics are now claiming

> > that atherosclerotic heart disease played a major role in his death.

> > In contrast to cardiomyopathy, which is often instigated by genetic

> > pre-disposition, birth defects, or viral infections, atherosclerotic

> > heart disease is believed to be influenced most heavily by dietary

> > and lifestyle factors.

>

> Some diseases are more prone to genetics than others but Ayurveda

> indicates that all the body is interconnected and each has an

> influence on the other. I don't think diet can be ruled out in

> cardiomyopathy.

 

hi GB

 

there is no direct medical link between viral cardiomyopathy and

diet, but of course all things being connected we couldn't rule it

out - diet is one three pillars of life, but i for one could see

several possibilities that could predispose him to this condition

without it necessarily being diet-related, for e.g. his hectic

lecture schedule at a time in his life when really he should be

moving on to more contemplative things in life

 

but its hard to say - our individual human lives are marked by pain -

nobody is free from suffering on one level or another

i think that someone mentioned recently that Swami Ramdev himself

suffers from a kind of facial paralysis, and yet by most people's

standards on this list he probably eats a 'sattvic' diet

 

yes, Atkins rubbed a lot of people the wrong way and it took several

years before anyone took him seriously - and when they did, and

studies were done, it has been consistently shown that his diet

reduces weight and improves the blood lipid profile, all of which are

the most important medically defined markers for heart disease -

however, because his approach challenges the medically accepted

paradigm, the medicos are reluctant to recommend it despite the

evidence and point to the theoretical risks

 

 

>

> I agree that incertain individuals, they may need more fats and

> proteins and other dietary changes. I presume that you would

> prescribe a healthy diet for those people. A lot of Atkins followers

> I see eat massive amounts of meat dairy products and fats (and often

> very few fruits and veggies) and they are within Atkins guidelines.

 

Atkins' guidelines have evolved over the years, and if you look over

his most recently published material including recipes on the Atkins

website you will see that they are strong advocates of consuming non-

starchy vegetables - his 'followers' however may not appreciate this

fact, and use the diet to justify bad eating habits

 

but I don't want to give anyone the impression that i think that

Atkins is the answer - in reality, it has become just another kind of

marketing machine, and doesn't have the depth that Ayurveda has

 

 

>

> As you know I am a vegetarian. I have no problem with feeding dogs

> and cats meat and fish but I do not have a good source for salmon

> trim. Most people fish miles away from where I live and usually clean

> the fish on the spot. I will be on the lookout for a source though.

 

you can usually get trim from the local fishmonger

they can wrap it up individually so you won't have to touch it, and

with any luck your dogs won't leave any mess to tidy up

not all dogs will eat it however, so i would try a little first

 

i only mentioned fish, not out of disrespect, but because that same

day i had watched a documentary on the wolves that live in northern

coastal regions of the pacific northwest, just south of Alaska -

researchers studying the wolves there have conclusively shown and

filmed the wolves fishing

 

the interesting thing to me is that the wolves are a vital part of

the local ecology, as they have been for millennia

when they make their kill, they bring the fish into the forest, and

the fish remains form a vital component of the soil nutrition

 

looking at some of the massive 700+ year old hemlock trees,

researchers have found fish-based nitrogen in the very tops of these

trees, miles away from the shore - it just goes to show the depth and

complexity of the natural cycle, which sometimes our man-made

philosophies have a hard time reconciling

 

best... todd

 

Caldecott

todd (AT) toddcaldecott (DOT) com

www.toddcaldecott.com