CONVERSATIONS WITH SAI

[Guest guest]

Swami, these days, imitation has become very common. This is also responsible

for young people to go in search of new fashions. What are Bhagavan's views on

this?

It is not good to imitate. Swami often tells the boys: IMITATION IS HUMAN

WHEREAS CREATION IS DIVINE! Imitation diminishes one's intrinsic abilities and

masks one's intrinsic nature. An example: Once, a crow tried to walk like a

swan. It kept on trying for a long time but could not succeed. In the end it

got fed up and gave up the imitation. But in the meanwhile, it had also

forgotten how to walk like a crow! This is the ultimate fate of those who try

cheap imitation. Always be your own true self.

Swami, some people say that there is no happiness in their lives, and that they

can never be happy. Why is that?

The mind is the reason for such a feeling. Happiness can be attained only if the

mind is turned towards God. If the mind is turned towards the world, then life

would become painful. An example: Take a hand-fan and move it towards you; then

the breeze will come towards you. If, however, you move the fan away from you,

how can you get breeze? In the same way, only if the mind is diverted towards

God, can you get happiness.

Swami, what is it that humans should give up?

People think that giving up means that one must renounce life. What one must

give up is attachment - this is the true meaning of renunciation. Swami

Ramanand Tirth had a wife and son [before he became a renunciate]. After he

became a renunciate, his wife once came to see him. The Swamiji turned his face

and said that he was a renunciate and that therefore the lady should not come to

see him. Hearing this, the lady replied that she had not come there to see her

husband but a holy sannyasi. Ramanand Tirth was humbled by the reply and felt

regret that he has spoken proudly to the woman.

You do not have to give up PROPERTIES. Instead, what is important is to develop

PROPER TIES WITH God!

Swami, why don't we receive God's Grace?

This is a totally wrong notion. God treats everyone alike. The fault lies with

individuals. For example, if it rains and you want to catch the rainwater, you

must place a vessel in the rain with the mouth of the vessel facing the sky.

Only then will the rainwater collect in the vessel. If on the other hand you

place the vessel upside down, how can you expect rainwater to collect in the

vessel? Your mind is the vessel and God is the sky. Turn the mind towards God;

then the water of Grace can surely be collected

 

Swami, what is the difference between Bhakti [devotion] and Surrender?

Bhakti is a state of dualism. In this state, there are two entities - God and

the devotee. The two are so close that they cannot ever be torn apart or

separated. Bhakti binds the devotee to God. Surrender, on the other hand, is a

state of monism or Advaitam. Once the devotee says there is only God and

nothing else, he ceases to have an independent existence - he does not exist as

a separate entity. The devotee never ever considers anything as "his". He moves

completely away from the "I" feeling. An example: Water and sugar differ both

in form and properties. This is dualism, or the path of Bhakti. Suppose sugar

is added to water and the water is stirred. The sugar will dissolve and spread

throughout the water. In this condition, there is neither pure water nor sugar;

instead, there is syrup. This

is surrender or Advaitam - the devotee offers everything to God and keeps

nothing for himself, including his mind.

Swami, does Love come after faith or does faith come after Love?

There can be no question that faith must come first. It is faith that takes one

to Love. One loves one's mother or friend because of the faith one has in those

persons. If there is no faith, can there be love for those people? Therefore, if

the question is "which comes first", then the answer is that faith comes first.

Swami, some say that experience is the basis for faith while others say that

faith comes before experience. Which is correct?

It is only when there is faith that one can have experience. Faith is the basis

of everything. An example: If someone who wants to learn swimming says, 'I will

first learn swimming and then enter water', it would be absolutely ridiculous!

Can you learn swimming on sand or on a road? You necessarily have to learn it

in water. Swimming is like experience and faith is like water. Know for sure

that faith always comes first.

Swami, detachment seems so difficult! It is not at all easy to give up one's

attachment to one's family, relatives, etc.

Actually, detachment is quite easy. In Swami's view, holding on is more

difficult. See here. I am holding on tightly to this handkerchief. Now I let

go. The kerchief falls. Which is more difficult? To hold on tightly, or to let

go? To hold tight, I must exert pressure with all the five fingers. This calls

for effort. But to release the hold, it is so much easier! Hence, attachment is

more difficult than detachment!

Swami, why is it that we do not immediately get the rewards of Sadhana [spiritual practice]?

Your approach to spiritual practice is not correct, and you must understand some

essentials. Let Me give an example. Children commence their studies in the

Kindergarten, then go through school, pass the 10th Standard, then the 12th

Standard, then enter College, and study for the B.A., B.Com., degrees etc. How

many years all this takes! And how much effort is required to earn a University

degree! If one must struggle so hard for a mere worldly degree, then is it

correct to expect instant results and rewards when one is going in quest of the

Infinite and the Eternal? It is wrong to expect immediate rewards.

 

Swami, what is meant by Jnana or Spiritual Wisdom?

 

Jnana does not mean bookish knowledge! It has nothing to do with scholarship. To

acquire Jnana, you do not have to master numerous books. Truly speaking, Jnana

is attained when you investigate all your shortcomings and get rid of them

totally. Spiritual Wisdom is NOT attained by stuffing the brain!

How to give up the feeling of 'I' and 'Mine'?

 

A small example will make this clear. There is a rich man living in a mansion.

For protection, he maintains a fierce dog. If you want to enter the mansion,

there are only two ways open to you.

One method is for you to become friendly with the dog. This is the path of Karma

Yoga. Or else, the rich man must come to gate and take you inside; if he does

not come, the dog will not let you inside. This is Bhakti Yoga. These are the

only two ways of getting rid of the feelings of 'I' and 'mine'. Bhakti is the

best way of destroying ego, which is at the root of the feelings of 'I' and

'mine'.

 

Swami,it is said that we are responsible for our actions, and that we cannot

escape its consequences. Under the circumstances, what benefit can Bhakti

[devotion] confer?

 

After creating everything, God gave man complete freedom to do as he liked. But

God has imposed a condition. You may do what you want and enjoy what you

desire, but you cannot escape the consequences. You have to face the result.

Therefore, you alone are responsible for what happens to you. The good and the

bad that happen to you were brought about by you alone. You ask: "Why then

should we have Bhakti?" There is an example that will provide the answer.

You have some land. You may grow onions on it or jasmine - that depends entirely

on your wish. But whatever it is, you must pay land tax to the Government. In

the same way, you cannot escape the consequences of Karma or your actions. Here

there is an important point. Your income tax is dependent on the amount you

earn. But there are also tax exemptions. In the same manner, devotion, service,

Sadhana, Bhajans etc., all fetch you some rebate from the consequences of your

past actions.

Swami, some say God has no Form while others worship God with Form. Please

explain what the difference is.

 

This is where many make mistakes. How can one even think of the Formless if

there is no Form to start with? So, Form cannot be summarily dismissed. You

have a form, don't you? Therefore, you must worship God with Form. If a fish

were to worship God, it would think of God as a very big Fish. The same with a

buffalo; it would think of God as a Super Buffalo. In the same manner, man must

think of God in human Form. As a matter of fact, the worship of the Formless

itself originated from the worship of God with Form. Without, Form, the

Formless has no meaning. An example, you are here conversing in this room with

Swami. Here you are dealing with the actual Form. Later when you go to your

room, you recall this conversation and that mental recall does not involve

actual physical Forms. There are no Forms now. This is the relationship between

the Form and the Formless. Another example: You have milk and you want to drink

it.

You need a cup for that. In the same way, for devotion you need the cup called Form.

Swami, people say God is Omnipresent. Please explain this.

 

In the Gita Krishna says: "I am the seed from which everything came". This means

that God is the primordial source of everything. For example, you plant a mango

seed in the ground. This then becomes a small sapling, grows into a big tree,

and then flowers. Then there are fruits and in each of these fruit there is a

seed. The tree represents Creation; the fruits represent beings; and the seed

in the fruits represent God!

 

Swami, if God is present in all beings, why then are there differences?

 

The Vedas declare that God is One. There is no question of there being a second.

Your doubt is, if there is only One who is present everywhere, why then are

there so many differences amongst beings? A small example will explain the

point. The current that flows through various bulbs is the same, but the light

outputs vary so much, don't they? Some are bright while others are dim. Why?

That is because the wattage of these bulbs is different. God the In-dweller is

like the current. He is the same in all beings. People are like bulbs; they

differ in their Gunas [intrinsic tendencies], and hence the differences.

Swami, if we are to progress further on the spiritual path, how much of

Spiritual Knowledge must we have?

 

Not much, really. Many people are always reading books on Spirituality. They

will be either listening to discourses or be giving discourses themselves. But

what is the use of all this? Such people do not seem to change at all, and

spiritually speaking, remain where they are. They do not put into practice what

they hear or learn. In truth, there is no need at all to read many books or hear

many discourses. Progress can be achieved by sincerely following just one or two

important teachings. To commit suicide, a small needle is enough! It is only to

kill others that one needs bigger weapons like knife, sickle or sword!! Those

who wish to preach to others have to read a lot. Those who want to improve

themselves do not have to read much; they only have to practice the little they

read.

 

Swami, what is this Maya [illusion, supposed to be created by God]?

 

There is no such thing as Maya; it is all one's imagination. To think that you

are the body is Maya. You mistakenly believe that you are something [body] that

you really are not; that is Maya. Truly speaking, there is no Maya; it is all

one's imagination. Maya is like the shadow of a tree. What casts the shadow?

The branches of the tree and not the rays of the Sun. If there are no branches,

there is also no shadow. The shadow called Maya arises from the branches called

human desires. If there are no desires, then there is no Maya as well!

 

HISLOP: We do not perceive life with absolute clarity, and yet we are acting all

the time, and unclear action makes for a confused life. We are unhappy about

that confusion, and in an effort to remove it we accumulate ideas of Truth, God

and Reality. But those imaginings do not remove the confusion. Life is still

confused. So, the question is: what is the big factor that prevents us from

seeing the Truth of life clearly?

SAI: You say that Truth, God and Reality are imagination. Why do you think they

are imagination? They are not. Time, work, reason and experience; these four in

harmony together, that is Truth. When the four are found to be out of harmony,

then you feel it is untruth.

An example: yesterday you came to Bangalore and from there to Puttaparti by car.

Travel is work. It took you four hours to come from Bangalore. That is time. You

came here to see Swami. That is the reason. Having seen Him you felt happy. This

is the result.

On the other hand, last night you dreamed you were in America and were shopping.

In this, the four factors were not involved. There was no work, there was no

time expended, and where is the result? This is untruth. That experience was

imagination, only mind work. This is the difference between truth and

imagination.

H: But truth, that is, in terms of work, time, reason and result – you look

around the world and you see those things in operation; and the world is in a

mess. So, there must be more to it than that?

SAI: When you don’t have absolute faith in the result, then doubt arises. An

example: now it is daylight and the objects in the room are seen very clearly,

and there is no doubt in regard to them. At night when it is fully dark and you

have to grope around and do not see any of the objects, there is no doubt about

that situation. But at dusk, when it is half light and half dark, doubt can

arise and you may see a rope and imagine it to be a snake and be frightened.

Light is not full and vision is not clear. Full light is wisdom, and full

darkness is ignorance. Doubt

arises when there is half darkness and half light. The half light is wisdom and

the half darkness is ignorance. When you have partial ignorance and partial

wisdom then you have doubts. Now you are in the middle stage when you have this

little bit of wisdom and also some ignorance, where ignorance and wisdom are

mixed. You are not fully experienced. When you have proper experience, the

doubt will vanish. Because you are not fully experienced you are having this

doubt.

A small example: while suffering from malaria, you eat a sweet but feel it has a

bitter taste. It was not that the sweet was bitter, but in your experience it

was bitter. It is not the fault of the sweet. Ignorance is also a disease like

malaria. And the cure for this disease of ignorance is Sadhana. Man has doubt

only when he does not know the Truth.

Once you experience the Truth, doubt will vanish. Truth is one and for all time

Truth is Truth. Whatever changes, know that as untruth. Once you were small and

you grew bigger. That is also untruth. Where is the body of the ten-year-old?

All has merged into the present body. First untruth; then, when we have the

experience we know the Truth. Darkness and light are not different; they are

one only.

A small example: last night you ate some fruit. In the morning it becomes stool

and you pass it out. It was fruit yesterday, but the bad and the good are the

same, only one. In one form it was fruit; in the other form it was stool.

It is the same with light and darkness. When the light comes, the darkness goes.

But really, the darkness does not go to any place and the light does not go to

any place. When one comes, the other is unknown; it does not go anywhere.

H: This mixture of light and darkness, of ignorance and wisdom which creates

unhappiness, which creates trouble – Swami says that the mixture which creates

confusion fades away with the right experience. The question is what is the

basic factor that prevents us from having that right experience?

SAI: We don’t have the intensity that is required. How much effort is needed

even to study books and come to the stage when we can read difficult books. How

many years, how many hours of toil we put into it. If you have the same

intensity in spiritual practise, you will surely know the Truth. But we are not

as intense as we should be on the spiritual path. We do not apply concentration

and one-pointedness. Full concentration is needed even in the world, in

walking, talking and reading.

We cannot do anything without concentration. We must concentrate even in small

worldly tasks. But when we try to think of God, we get restless, and the mind

becomes unstable. Why do we do the things of the world with full concentration?

Why? Because we are fully interested in it. And with God we have these doubts.

We have full concentration in whatever work we love deeply. Concentration is

not full when we do work that we don’t love deeply.

A small example: you are driving a car. At the same time you are talking to some

passengers. The road becomes narrow and dangerous. You say, “Please let us not

talk now, I must give full concentration to the driving.” Why do you say this?

It is because you deeply love your life and you must concentrate thoroughly to

avoid an accident. Because you have this love for your body, you concentrate on

its safety. When you have profound love for God, then concentration on Him will

come automatically.

H: But that is the point, there is the whole point.

SAI: In all these experiences we must hold to the Truth, to life. You love life.

We have all these experiences because of life. So we are clinging on to that

sort of pillar which is life; for we know that without life we don’t have

experiences. Life gives so many things externally but life does not change;

life is the same. That life is Truth and that is God. The unchangeable is

Truth.

H: Since we are that Truth, we would like to have love in our hearts and flow

naturally with life and not according to our arbitrary wishes. Yet we don’t.

Swami says we do not, because we lack the intensity. So we say to ourselves,

“Well I must get that intensity.” So we strive towards that goal, and striving

towards that goal makes the thing stronger – that prevents the desired

intensity.

Translator: I don’t follow that.

H: We are selfish and greedy naturally. If we substitute a spiritual goal for a

physical goal, then we are still engaged in the same greed. One has just

changed the physical greed to a spiritual greed. A further point. If one does

not love, as indeed one does not, then one says, “I must get love”. Then love

is over there and oneself is here.

SAI: Who are you? Who are you?

H: I am the accumulation of all my past, all my ideas.

SAI: Who is that ‘my’? Who is that ‘my’? Who is claiming? Between the love and

yourself there is this claim. What is love and who are you?

H: I am that which I am, the accumulation of all these…

H’s Wife: The accumulation is the idea that you have, but according to Swami you

[Atma] and the love are the same thing. You [ego] are the one who puts the

separation.

H: Yes, I am the one who puts the separation between us. I am the ego.

SAI: Ego is untruth.

H: Ego is untruth, then I…

SAI: But you are not ego. You are Truth. Ego is not Truth. Any amount of

arguments and discussions like this are just words. You will not get this

without spiritual practice, without Sadhana. An example: someone asks us what

sugar is. We say it is brownish and sort of sandy, because we know sugar. But

the sweetness has no form. You can describe sugar like this, but you cannot

picture the taste, because the taste has no form.

Even pertaining to the world there are so many things we do not know, and we

don’t imagine or worry about. If we only feel intensely for God instead of much

discussion and reading books. We must get into the field and try it out. Even if

someone writes a book it is his spiritual experience.

You love your wife and she loves you. But if she is hungry you cannot eat for

her. And if you are hungry she cannot eat for you despite the fact that you

love each other dearly. Spiritual hunger is like that. Each man must seek and

appease that hunger according to his faith. Even though Swami tries to explain,

you do not grasp it. It is only through experience that you can come to it.

When you start to learn to drive, you must have an open space for practice; but

once you learn, then you can go confidently even on a narrow road. It is just

like in a school. Gradually you go and you understand. If big words are used

when the child is still learning ABC then the child does not understand.

In the beginning, we do not understand the things of the world, and do not even

understand ourselves; so how can you understand that which is beyond you? So,

first you try to understand yourself by doing spiritual practice, by doing

Sadhana. First ‘I’ next ‘you’. ‘I’ plus ‘you’ equals ‘we’. Then ‘we’. Then ‘we’

plus ‘He’. Then only ‘He’.

H: No, I don’t understand that.

SAI: First ‘I’ then ‘you’. First ‘I’ that is life. Next ‘you’ that is the world.

‘I’ plus ‘you’ is ‘we’. ‘We’ plus ‘He’ is God. Only ‘He’. There is love, the

person who loves and the person you love. And when all get together it is

bliss.

You see there are three blades in the fan. The three Gunas are represented by

the three blades. Only when the blades circulate together in harmony do you get

the air. When they move in the same direction then they bring the cool air. The

three Gunas within us are going in different directions. When you turn them in

the same direction all going round together then you will have one-pointedness

and you will be enabled to know.

A Visitor: Could it be like this? It is the experience of a number of people

including myself that gradually one does Sadhana, but then comes such an

experience that would have taken an immense time to gain, but through your

Grace one has the sudden experience.

SAI: Another example: in a house, each one does a particular job and divides the

work. In the evening when the family has finished the work nobody says, “Father,

I did such and such a work and you must pay me.” It is one house. So you don’t

ask for payment you just do the work. But when someone from outside comes you

fix up the rate and pay accordingly. When you pay them that shows that they are

outsiders. But when they become your own you don’t have to pay them. They work

with

interest and no pay is expected. Similarly with God. When you think God is the

nearest and dearest to you, like one family, you don’t ask for pay. The one who

surrenders like that, he is My own, he does not have to look for payment. But

the one who says, “I have done so much Sadhana” and barters with God and says,

“I have done so much Sadhana and you give me such and such a reward”, then that

is the difference; he is the outsider.

The child who is so small does not ask the mother “I want milk. I want to be

changed” and so on, but the mother looks after every need of the child without

its asking. When you have surrendered yourself completely to God and become

God’s child, you don’t have to tell God what you want. He will give even more

than you have asked for. But it is only by love that He is your dearest. Do

Sadhana and there is a closeness to God; then you don’t have to tell Him that

you want this or that. Because you are like a little child, He will come and

give you more than even what you ask for. Ego is what prevents us from becoming

close to God. It is that ego, ‘I’ have to do this, ‘I’ have to get all this. You

must see that ’I’ is only the instrument of the Lord. Like the fan is an

instrument, you are an instrument of the Lord. Now is the fan making the fan

rotate or is the current making the fan

rotate?

H: The current is making the fan rotate.

SAI: The current is God; so you are only the instrument. Even the fact that we

think that our eyes see things and that our ears hear things is not correct. My

eyes are here but the mind is in Bangalore thinking of this or that. My eyes are

seeing, but my mind is somewhere else. Mind is important. Body is like a torch;

eye is like the bulb; mind is the battery cell; intelligence is the switch.

Only when the four work together do you get the light. The body is only like a

torch.

H: Surrender to God is everything of course but…

SAI: The word ‘surrender’ in English is not quite correct; it is not the right

word. Because, when you say ‘surrender’, you are separate and God is separate.

That is the meaning you get. But God is not separate.

SAI: ……..The word, 'surrender', in English, is not quite correct; it is not the

right word. Because, when you say, 'surrender', you are separate and God is

separate. That is the meaning you get. But God is not separate. A Visitor: The

word, 'surrender', is not the correct word, so Self-realisation...SAI:

Self-realisation that is why they call it so. You are You. You realise your own

Self. You are you, not your wife. You are You.A Second Visitor: Where is our

responsibility? We

are supposed to share, to help others.A Third Visitor: Help oneself first.SAI:

‘Self’ is the base, or foundation. 'Help' is the wall. God is the roof or top

of the building. ‘Light’ is the owner.A Visitor: But she was asking, 'what is

the limit?’ Where is the limit of one's responsibility? How far should she

go?SAI: First you should look after yourself and not be a burden. That is the

first thing. If you are not able to help so many people, it doesn't matter. But

if you don't do anything that is harmful, that is real help. If you can't help a

person, never mind. But don't harm anybody. To harm is bad. But the very feeling

you have that you can't help, itself is good. You must have physical strength,

spiritual strength, and mental strength; and only when you have the three, then

you can really do service. Food, head, and God. Food is for the body; and you

want a good body so the brain can function properly, so you can think. And why

do you want

this head and that intellect? To realise that which is beyond this - and that is

God.Visitor: But it hurts me to see people in need, beggars and innocent little

children who are ill.A Second Visitor: Is it not egoistic to have everything

for yourself?Translator: But Swami did not mean in that sense. What Swami said

is that when you do not have the physical, mental and spiritual strength, how

can you really help another person?SAI: Sometimes when we are not balanced and

have not realised the proper truth, we will

mislead so many other people.A Visitor: It is that you cannot give what you do

not have.A Second Visitor: Nothing before straightening yourself.H: Is it

possible for Swami to give the lady Self-realisation?A Third Visitor: Swami

says it is possible. Since He gives the Truth, cannot He also give

Self-realisation to the heart?SAI: When there is that feeling, that depth of

feeling, Swami can give it. Oh, yes. She has such a depth of feeling for the

body. If she has the same intensity for God-realisation, Swami can give it -

just now.H: So, that is what Swami means by, ‘Before you can help people'.SAI:

The more intensity, the greater the result. If you are digging a well, the

deeper you dig the higher will be the wall formed by the mud you bring out. The

depth is in the form of the height.

(The deeper you dig the higher the wall).H: Swami says that He cannot give to a

dry heart. Why is the heart dry?SAI: God gives even that for our own good. When

you aren’t hungry, why should He give you food? When you’re hungry and receive

food, it is useful; but if you aren’t hungry and He gives you food, you will

have indigestion. Sometimes, even if you are hungry, God doesn’t give you food

- just to keep you in check and control. Suppose you are in the hospital; they

can't give you everything you might ask for. There is a proper time

and a proper way for your own sake. Sometimes God withholds even a spiritual

experience because God does everything for man's good. He never does anything

to harm man or give him sorrow. But you must have that faith. First you must

grapple with the fact that duty is God, and start doing your duty.H: Is it that

the heart is dry because one is not doing one’s duty?SAI: Nobody’s heart is

really dry. At least men have sense love. At least you have worldly love for

children, family and others. It is the same love but given to some only. You

only have to take it all and give it to God.

Source and Courtesy: http://www.radiosai.org/Journals

With Sai love from Sai brothers -

''Do You

?