Swami's Interview Session with John Hislop

[Guest guest]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

SaiRam. Today I would like to share with you the

following conversation John Hislop had had with SWAMI. This is an excerpt from

the book 'My Baba and I'.

October 25, 1978

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JH: SWAMI, new Centers, with maybe only three people, want to have some other

people come to their meetings, but months pass and nobody comes. Could they do

something like posting a notice of their meeting at places like health food

stores?

SAI: No. SWAMI prefers that additional people come only through observing the

virtuos lives of the Center members, and by word of mouth. Notices and such

might start small, but in time they will get out-of-hand. Even such small

things as notices will be taken as advertising of SWAMI. Other Swamis have to

advertise and even provide transport, but SAI does no advertising, yet

thousands come. SAI even tells the people here to go home, but they stay. There

is this difference.

JH: Then the small Centers will need to just patiently wait for membership increases?

SAI: Yes.

JH: SWAMI, some questions arise in the American Centers for which I do not have

an answer. Many people of Jewish faith do not understand why the symbol of the

Jewish faith is not included in the SAI symbol of all religions, since the

Jewish people exceed in numbers some of the religions represented in the SAI

symbol.

SAI: It is not through any intention that the Jewish symbol is excluded. In

India, there is not a general awareness that the Jewish symbol is substantially

different. Does the cross fail to symbolize the Jewish faith to a substantial

degree?

MG: Yes, SWAMI. There is a substantial difference.

SAI: Then let the Jewish people make a proposal to us and we will give consideration to it.

JH: SWAMI says that there is the duty of self-preservation. People wonder how

far this goes. To save one's own life, should one kill the person who is

attacking?

SAI: To preserve one's body is an important duty. One may take whatever means

are necessary for self-preservation. About the other part of your question: to

kill the person attacking - the answer is "yes", if that is the only way to

preserve one's own life. But keep in mind that many alternate actions might be

taken to avoid being killed. Only if every possibility is exhausted may one

take the extreme measure of killing the attacker.

JH: SWAMI's discourse about people going to the Moon Loka and the Sun Loka created much confusion.

SAI: SAI has explained it before, and perhaps the people asking the question did

not read. People may think there is a journey over a distance to the realm of

Indra, the Moon, and the Sun. All such changes are within the person. If a

person develops his life so that he has great physical force and strength, he

is said to have centered his life in the Indra Loka. If he has developed his

mind to such an extent that it is beyond the comprehension of an ordinary

person, his life is said to be in the Moon Loka. And, if a man had developed

intelligence to a maximum extent, his life is said to be in the Sun Loka.

JH: Another question that arises has to do with SWAMI's statement that, by

virtuous actions in the past, a human birth is gained. In this context there

must have been virtuous animal actions, but how can this be when the animal

acts by instinct?

SAI: A good action is good whether accomplished by instinct or reason. Is not

the shelter provided by a tree good for both animal and man? When a cow denies

milk to its calf because the milk is taken by the herdsman, the result is

beneficial for the human persons who drink the milk, and the benefit enjoyed is

no less because the cow did not think, but is only being itself. And the dog in

the house, does he not guard and care for the master, and love him too? A human

guard must be paid, but the dog gives love and loyalty without concept of

payment. There are endless examples throughout nature of good and virtuous

action being fully effective, even though, by instinct, the animal or plant is

only being true to its own nature.

Human life is not being depleted even though millions die and, in addition,

there is a constant transition from humanity to the Divine. Instead of

depletion, the human population is growing, and this new supply comes from the

rock, the insect, the animal. Even science testifies that the rock decomposes

and becomes the tree; the vegetation is eaten and becomes the animal; and the

animal in its various aspects is consumed and becomes the human. It is a

constant process of passing from one grade to another. The human birth is the

final birth and, dependent on the virtue of the life, it ends in the Divine, or

is reborn again.

JH: Is degrading possible? Is there a rebirth back to the animal?

SAI: The possibility is not denied, but it is only rarely that such a thing

happens. The degrading of human life due to lack of virtue will normally result

in rebirth as a lower grade human. The total process is always present. Table

and wood are equally present. If attention is given to table, wood is not seen.

This cushion is not without thread, nor is the thread without cotton. How it is

viewed is matter of emphasis. Here I am now drawing three circles, the smaller

within the larger. This middle one represents Jiva (the individual "soul"); the

smaller circle, the body; and the largest, the Atma (the ultimate Self).

The smaller circle is what you think you are, the next one what others think

you are, and the third is what you really are: the Atma. The smaller circle may

expand and expand until it merges with the larger, the Atma.

JH: SWAMIJI, that is the present list of questions that have come up for which I

did not have answers.

SAI: It is good. It is important that the questions be asked. They are the

questions that are presented to the many gurus, but SAI can give the correct

answers.

SaiRam

Raghu.