Guest guest Posted April 16, 2006 Report Share Posted April 16, 2006 your viewing this absurd is a great example. it's your freewill to think it so. if i think something not possible it won't be for me. Ammachi, "vallathnkumar" <vallathn wrote: > > I find this article absurd. Amma too, says (paraphrased), "The > president may think that he can push a red button at any time to cause > the destruction of another nation with nuclear missiles, but does he > wonder where that impulse to push the button comes from?" God alone > is the doer. > > Nandu > > Ammachi, "ecjensen_us" <ecjensen_us@> wrote: > > > > OM NAMAH SIVAYA > > > > SIVANANDA DAILY READING FOR 16 APRIL > > YOU HAVE FREEWILL > > > > > > Some ignorant people say: "Karma does everything. It is all destiny. > > If I am destined by my karma to be like this or like that, why then > > should I exert? It is my destiny only." This is fatalism. This will > > bring inertia, stagnation and misery. This is perfect > > misunderstanding of the laws of karma. This is a fallacious argument. > > > > An intelligent man will certainly not put such a question. You have > > made your own destiny from within by your thoughts and actions. You > > have a free will to choose now. You have freedom in action. A rogue > > is not an eternal rogue. Put him in the company of a saint. He will > > change in no time. He will think and act now in a different way and > > will change his destiny. He will become saintly in character. Dacoit > > Ratnagar was changed into Sage Valmiki by the current of Rishi > > Narada. Jagai and Madai, two rogues of the first order were changed > > by the current of Nityananda, disciple of Lord Gouranga. You will > > have to desire, to think, and act. You can change karma in any way > > you like. You can become a yogi or jnani by right desire, by right > > thinking and by right action. You can attain the position of Indra > > or Brahma by good karma. Man is not a helpless being. He has free > > will of his own. > > > > Man has power to choose between the alternatives which fate brings > > before him. In choosing between them he may either follow his > > tendencies produced by his past actions or struggle against them. > > The will of man is ever free. The arguments which are advanced by > > determinists in saying that human will is determined are not sound > > and tenable; they fall to the ground. > > > > Dear friends! Man is the master of his destiny. Wake up now from the > > deep slumber of ignorance. Never become a fatalist. Think rightly, > > Act rightly. Lead a virtuous life. Never hurt the feelings of > > others. Mould your character. Purify your mind. Concentrate. Thou > > art nitya mukta purusa (ever free spirit). Tat Twam Asi - Thou art > > That. > > > > The samskaras (habit-patterns) of virtuous actions are imbedded in > > the citta. They are also indestructible. They are real, valuable > > assets for you. They will prevent you from doing wrong actions. They > > will push you on to the goal. Selfless works will prepare the ground > > of antahkarana (the psyche) for the reception of the seed of jnana. > > The path of karma yoga eventually leads to the attainment of > > infinite bliss of the self. > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > JAI MA > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2006 Report Share Posted April 16, 2006 Another way of looking at it, paraphrased from Ramana Maharishi. You have FREEWILL so long as you THINK you are independent and are IGNORANT of your UNITY with GOD. The moment such thinking vanishes, you are SURRENDERED and your life, actions, and will are all GOD. The THINKing is the fallacy; till such time, you carry with you the ILLUSION of FREEWILL, and the concomitant laws of karma bind you to it. Once the THINKing goes away, the laws of karma may still act on you, but dont BIND you to it. I think it is critical to evaluate the audience Swami Sivananda was addressing..... If I juxtapose both viewpoints together, Swami was probably addressing the NON-REALIZED crowd who was acting irresponsibly in their lives. Jai Ma! Ammachi, "ecjensen_us" <ecjensen_us wrote: > > your viewing this absurd is a great example. it's your freewill to > think it so. if i think something not possible it won't be for me. > > Ammachi, "vallathnkumar" <vallathn@> wrote: > > > > I find this article absurd. Amma too, says (paraphrased), "The > > president may think that he can push a red button at any time to > cause > > the destruction of another nation with nuclear missiles, but does > he > > wonder where that impulse to push the button comes from?" God > alone > > is the doer. > > > > Nandu > > > > Ammachi, "ecjensen_us" <ecjensen_us@> wrote: > > > > > > OM NAMAH SIVAYA > > > > > > SIVANANDA DAILY READING FOR 16 APRIL > > > YOU HAVE FREEWILL > > > > > > > > > Some ignorant people say: "Karma does everything. It is all > destiny. > > > If I am destined by my karma to be like this or like that, why > then > > > should I exert? It is my destiny only." This is fatalism. This > will > > > bring inertia, stagnation and misery. This is perfect > > > misunderstanding of the laws of karma. This is a fallacious > argument. > > > > > > An intelligent man will certainly not put such a question. You > have > > > made your own destiny from within by your thoughts and actions. > You > > > have a free will to choose now. You have freedom in action. A > rogue > > > is not an eternal rogue. Put him in the company of a saint. He > will > > > change in no time. He will think and act now in a different way > and > > > will change his destiny. He will become saintly in character. > Dacoit > > > Ratnagar was changed into Sage Valmiki by the current of Rishi > > > Narada. Jagai and Madai, two rogues of the first order were > changed > > > by the current of Nityananda, disciple of Lord Gouranga. You > will > > > have to desire, to think, and act. You can change karma in any > way > > > you like. You can become a yogi or jnani by right desire, by > right > > > thinking and by right action. You can attain the position of > Indra > > > or Brahma by good karma. Man is not a helpless being. He has > free > > > will of his own. > > > > > > Man has power to choose between the alternatives which fate > brings > > > before him. In choosing between them he may either follow his > > > tendencies produced by his past actions or struggle against > them. > > > The will of man is ever free. The arguments which are advanced > by > > > determinists in saying that human will is determined are not > sound > > > and tenable; they fall to the ground. > > > > > > Dear friends! Man is the master of his destiny. Wake up now from > the > > > deep slumber of ignorance. Never become a fatalist. Think > rightly, > > > Act rightly. Lead a virtuous life. Never hurt the feelings of > > > others. Mould your character. Purify your mind. Concentrate. > Thou > > > art nitya mukta purusa (ever free spirit). Tat Twam Asi - Thou > art > > > That. > > > > > > The samskaras (habit-patterns) of virtuous actions are imbedded > in > > > the citta. They are also indestructible. They are real, valuable > > > assets for you. They will prevent you from doing wrong actions. > They > > > will push you on to the goal. Selfless works will prepare the > ground > > > of antahkarana (the psyche) for the reception of the seed of > jnana. > > > The path of karma yoga eventually leads to the attainment of > > > infinite bliss of the self. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > JAI MA > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2006 Report Share Posted April 16, 2006 I think the crux to this matter is being able to define the "you" that is supposed to either have freewill or not. When pressed on this matter, most people who debate this issue don't have an answer. But without knowing what the "you" is whose freewill is being debated, the debate itself is meaningless, in the sense that a resolution will never come about (although it may provide entertainment no doubt and may be meaningful in that sense) labd Ammachi, "manoj_menon" <ammademon wrote: > > Another way of looking at it, paraphrased from Ramana Maharishi. > > You have FREEWILL so long as you THINK you are independent and are > IGNORANT of your UNITY with GOD. > > The moment such thinking vanishes, you are SURRENDERED and your life, > actions, and will are all GOD. > > The THINKing is the fallacy; till such time, you carry with you the > ILLUSION of FREEWILL, and the concomitant laws of karma bind you to it. > > Once the THINKing goes away, the laws of karma may still act on you, > but dont BIND you to it. > > > > I think it is critical to evaluate the audience Swami Sivananda was > addressing..... If I juxtapose both viewpoints together, Swami was > probably addressing the NON-REALIZED crowd who was acting > irresponsibly in their lives. > > Jai Ma! > > > > Ammachi, "ecjensen_us" <ecjensen_us@> wrote: > > > > your viewing this absurd is a great example. it's your freewill to > > think it so. if i think something not possible it won't be for me. > > > > Ammachi, "vallathnkumar" <vallathn@> wrote: > > > > > > I find this article absurd. Amma too, says (paraphrased), "The > > > president may think that he can push a red button at any time to > > cause > > > the destruction of another nation with nuclear missiles, but does > > he > > > wonder where that impulse to push the button comes from?" God > > alone > > > is the doer. > > > > > > Nandu > > > > > > Ammachi, "ecjensen_us" <ecjensen_us@> wrote: > > > > > > > > OM NAMAH SIVAYA > > > > > > > > SIVANANDA DAILY READING FOR 16 APRIL > > > > YOU HAVE FREEWILL > > > > > > > > > > > > Some ignorant people say: "Karma does everything. It is all > > destiny. > > > > If I am destined by my karma to be like this or like that, why > > then > > > > should I exert? It is my destiny only." This is fatalism. This > > will > > > > bring inertia, stagnation and misery. This is perfect > > > > misunderstanding of the laws of karma. This is a fallacious > > argument. > > > > > > > > An intelligent man will certainly not put such a question. You > > have > > > > made your own destiny from within by your thoughts and actions. > > You > > > > have a free will to choose now. You have freedom in action. A > > rogue > > > > is not an eternal rogue. Put him in the company of a saint. He > > will > > > > change in no time. He will think and act now in a different way > > and > > > > will change his destiny. He will become saintly in character. > > Dacoit > > > > Ratnagar was changed into Sage Valmiki by the current of Rishi > > > > Narada. Jagai and Madai, two rogues of the first order were > > changed > > > > by the current of Nityananda, disciple of Lord Gouranga. You > > will > > > > have to desire, to think, and act. You can change karma in any > > way > > > > you like. You can become a yogi or jnani by right desire, by > > right > > > > thinking and by right action. You can attain the position of > > Indra > > > > or Brahma by good karma. Man is not a helpless being. He has > > free > > > > will of his own. > > > > > > > > Man has power to choose between the alternatives which fate > > brings > > > > before him. In choosing between them he may either follow his > > > > tendencies produced by his past actions or struggle against > > them. > > > > The will of man is ever free. The arguments which are advanced > > by > > > > determinists in saying that human will is determined are not > > sound > > > > and tenable; they fall to the ground. > > > > > > > > Dear friends! Man is the master of his destiny. Wake up now from > > the > > > > deep slumber of ignorance. Never become a fatalist. Think > > rightly, > > > > Act rightly. Lead a virtuous life. Never hurt the feelings of > > > > others. Mould your character. Purify your mind. Concentrate. > > Thou > > > > art nitya mukta purusa (ever free spirit). Tat Twam Asi - Thou > > art > > > > That. > > > > > > > > The samskaras (habit-patterns) of virtuous actions are imbedded > > in > > > > the citta. They are also indestructible. They are real, valuable > > > > assets for you. They will prevent you from doing wrong actions. > > They > > > > will push you on to the goal. Selfless works will prepare the > > ground > > > > of antahkarana (the psyche) for the reception of the seed of > > jnana. > > > > The path of karma yoga eventually leads to the attainment of > > > > infinite bliss of the self. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > > > > JAI MA > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2006 Report Share Posted April 17, 2006 OM NAMAH SIVAYA i really like your last paragraph. i tend to do the opposite, blame myself for what I feel bad/guilty for and say i was lead by God on the good. if we are going to live in some kind of illusion i like your way better. it may be more constructive. thanks for this. i've never met anyone here, only in an impersonal way thru the posts, which i think is both a blessing and a curse. the curse is it's impersonal so it's not the same connection that many of you have with each other. the blessing is that it's impersonal so i can just read the posts as if they are all from Amma. it helps me to be more objective about the wealth of info and wisdom that is here. your initial response to the freewill post was surprising to me. while i try to not judge, i often find myself judging the posts based on whether i agree with them or not. you know, a post i like i think, "this person is pretty cool i bet we could hang out." and a post i don't agree with i think, "what a jack-ass." i must admit the freewill post elicited more of the latter. i apologize for that, but you've been on both sides before so you have that going for you. but seriously, there must be some freewill. is life like the old- fashioned, handheld pinball games. you know where you pull the lever and the ball shoots to the top, bounces off of pegs towards the bottom and it falls into a slot with our score or life outcome. totally random to us. are decisions we make not our own, or are they irrelevant? to me, there must be some freewill or what would be the point in doing spiritual practice. which i find is most beneficial. maybe Amma says it both ways because it's not absolute. wasn't it Buddha that said, "`Nothing is', is one extreme; 'everything is', is another extreme. God is in the middle. Truth is in the middle." And is the example about faith is really a fair comparison? because once you know something to be true is not really about faith anymore. faith takes on a whole new context. and we Know that Amma is for real. so once that is part of your being it can't not be. Ammachi, "vallathnkumar" <vallathn wrote: > > Yes, indeed, Kashi, Amma does say both things -- sometimes on the side > of free will, and sometimes on the side of fate. The fact is that > every time I make a "decision" to do something, I don't know where > that decision comes from. That is why I said free will was absurd. > Same with faith. An Amma devotee told me that having faith in Amma or > not was my choice. I asked him, then, to stop believing in Amma for > 24 hours, and after that go back to having faith -- after all, it is > within everyone's control according to him, and it was only for a day. > I certainly could not do that. It is like life is a roller coaster, > and I just think that I am driving it, whereas I am only riding it. > > I like to do this -- when it is something that I do that makes me feel > guilty, I say I have no free will. Otherwise I say the action is > borne of my free will. Best of both worlds :-) > > Nandu > > > Ammachi, "kasi_visvanath" <kasi_visvanath@> > wrote: > > > > Ammachi, "vallathnkumar" <vallathn@> wrote: > > > > > > I find this article absurd. Amma too, says (paraphrased), "The > > > president may think that he can push a red button at any time to > > cause > > > the destruction of another nation with nuclear missiles, but does > > he > > > wonder where that impulse to push the button comes from?" God > > alone > > > is the doer. > > > > > > Nandu > > > > > Om Amrtesvaryai Namah! > > > > Namaskarams!! > > > > come on Nandu...you know very well that Amma also often tells us > > that we have freewill...that She says all our sufferings should NOT > > be blamed upon God, that we ourselves have created all those Karmas > > which have led to the present sufferings, and that we ourselves are > > the ones to blame...as well as we ourselves are the ones to bring > > ourselves up by our own bootstraps so to speak by taking up NEW and > > positive thoughts and actions...what is this if not "freewill"... > > > > Of course on the other hand, depending upon what the questioner had > > asked...and probably WHO the questioner IS, Amma will just as often > > make the statement like you said above...She appears to jump on > > whichever side of the fence of freewill versus destiny, > > is "appropriate" for the current questioner's state of mind...She > > never says the same thing all the time... > > > > so on one level Sri Swami Sivananda's teaching is totally true, and > > yet on another level, as you say, it is all hogwash...it depends > > upon your understanding of freewill and destiny. Perhaps it is more > > helpful for "beginners" to think that they have some input into the > > cosmic scheme of things by "freewill"... > > > > If you look at Jyotish, often you may be totally discouraged from > > the thoughts of freewill, because you will see that whatever you may > > have thought that you have done from freewill appears on the chart > > to have been destined to occur at that time...on the other hand, as > > my darling Easwari says, each sign and house, Not to mention planet, > > has MANY significations...and MANY different things COULD have > > occurred at that time which is under the "microscope" of > > inquiry...all off them appropriately labelled under the "destiny" > > label, as being signified by that planet in that house or sign...or > > that dasha period. > > > > perhaps the "freewill" might be found in the "choice" if there is > > one, of WHICH of the many significations that one might undertake to > > do...on the other hand, it is entirely possible that even that > > is "destined" to be chosen... > > > > it is SUCh a thorny question, which astrologers (and our list > > members) still fight over, and are unable to reach to real solution > > to. > > > > so perhaps we should not just sum it up which such a dismissive > > attitude...perhaps Sri Swami Sivanandaji was writing to just such a > > person as NEEDED that freewill lecture...whereas it may be totally > > unsuitable for such a vedantist as yourself? how's that for my > > solution to the "problem" > > > > In Amma's Divine Love, > > and in Her Service, > > as ever, > > your own > > visvanathan > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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